[PF] Whip Magus

[stack]

So a Magus can channel touch spells through a melee weapon. Often this involves defense casting, which can be dicey in pathfinder without investing feats and traits. So, for one feat (or trait w/ heirloom weapon) (plus weapon finesse, which you may have taken anyway) you can get a whip with 15 foot range, and hold it in a hand equipped with a cestus to allow AOO's against adjacent enemies. Same proficiency gets you a scorpion whip, circumventing the whips non-lethal/useless against armor problems.

The scorpion whip is also a one-handed slashing weapon, so qualifies for the black blade of a bladebound magus.

So, is this worthy of consideration alongside the other standard builds (mostly scimitar/dervish dance or strength based power attack)?

[Alefiend]

It's certainly an interesting idea, and one I'd like to see developed. Whips may be pretty ineffective as weapons IRL against heavily-dressed opponents (unless you're a student of certain martial arts), but they bring so much flavor to the table that it's silly to exclude them. It's a fantasy game with tomb robbing and monster fighting—we need some more Indiana Jones and Castlevania up in here.

The argument you're making for the whip applies equally well to the spiked chain, or just a regular length of chain for that matter. You wouldn't even need to wear a cestus if you didn't want to, since the chain can attack adjacent targets already. You don't get the extra 5' of reach, but you also get no dead zone.

While you're at it, see if you can dig up stats on chain whips and rocket darts (no actual rocket, just the weapon's name). They might work as well or better.

(Note: I personally hate the spiked chain with a bloody passion, and not just because there are builds that abuse it. That's a discussion for another time. They're also my main reason for mentioning the alternate metal whips in the previous paragraph—preventing spiked-chain proliferation.)

[FMArthur]

Yeah, but the whip really has something going for it in 15ft reach, which means even against longspears and large critters you won't risk losing spells to AoOs. Being one-handed means you can also wield a different one-handed weapon in your other hand just to threaten and attack adjacent opponents when appropriate (not TWFing, just use one hand at a time and always use the other weapon for AoOs).

[Larpus]

Yeah, but the whip really has something going for it in 15ft reach, which means even against longspears and large critters you won't risk losing spells to AoOs. Being one-handed means you can also wield a different one-handed weapon in your other hand just to threaten and attack adjacent opponents when appropriate (not TWFing, just use one hand at a time and always use the other weapon for AoOs).
Wouldn't the offhand attacks still count as a TWF offhand attack just without the main attack?

I'm not entirely sure, but I recall reading something like this somewhere on the SRD.

[stack]

The magus really needs a free hand for casting, so spiked chains are out (and aren't reach in Pathfinder anyway). The only other one-handed melee weapon with reach that I can find is the chain spear (flying talon), if you take table over text on the SRD. The advantage of the cestus is that you can still hold a weapon in that hand (I think), thus getting your AOO's for adjacent enemies.

[Alefiend]

You would have a hand free for casting, though; wielding a two-handed weapon doesn't take that away, or no wizard in his right mind would ever use a staff.

But I am not arguing for the use of a spiked chain. And if Pathfinder removed its reach (I didn't remember that tidbit) then we can ignore it entirely. So I feel justified in starting all the sentences in this paragraph with a conjunction. :smallbiggrin:

While we're looking for alternatives, how about the aklys (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/aklys)? It doesn't have the reach quality, but it is a melee weapon that you retain hold of when you throw it. A nice GM might let you get away with using it for touch spells. It lacks the flavor of the whip—and I realize flavor is important here—but has 5' more range.

[stack]

Spell combat explicitly requires 1 hand free, though spell strike does not have that clause. Alkys is interesting, its listed as a light weapon, so should work, though I would ask first.

Whip has other support though. One trait lets you treat it like a rope with grappel, a feat chain lets you repeatedly trip adjacent opponents. Not saying they are optimized, but its more than many weapons get, flavor-wise.

[FMArthur]

The magus really needs a free hand for casting, so spiked chains are out (and aren't reach in Pathfinder anyway). The only other one-handed melee weapon with reach that I can find is the chain spear (flying talon), if you take table over text on the SRD. The advantage of the cestus is that you can still hold a weapon in that hand (I think), thus getting your AOO's for adjacent enemies.

Oh yeah. Good call with the cestus, then.

I don't think the aklys works. It doesn't have reach or anything like that: you really are just throwing the weapon, which is not a melee attack. Melee attacks you make with it don't have reach. Making ranged attacks for spells is much more in the realm of Arcane Archer than Magus anyway.

Stick with the whip, I say. It sounds neat and seems to work the best.

[stack]

Actually, serpent lash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/serpent-lash-combat)+arcane combat+true strike seems like a fun combo, getting +18 (after -2 spell combat penalty) to trip/disarm, then getting a free trip/disarm against an adjacent target if successful, with the same bonus. Seems like that feat is made for a whip magus. The greater (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-serpent-lash-combat)version is interesting as well.

[Alefiend]

Serpent Lash looks very cool. I hope you can keep this going and make a build that really works. I love the idea of a whip magus. Especially if it isn't PrC-based.

(Also: I know the aklys doesn't work via RAW. It just seems like something that would be a good alternative with an understanding GM who liked the intent.)

[stack]

I'm considering hexcrafter magus so I can use slumber as well. Losing spell recall is tough though, getting spells back as a free action is nice with such limited slots. Though whiping someone to sleep with no HD limit is fun, set them up for a coup de grace with the back-up kukri, or from a party member. Tough choices.

Too bad you can't use the hexes before lvl 5 (you get the option at 4, but you don't get an arcana at 4, you can take the extra arcana feat at 5).

[Rubia]

Actually, serpent lash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/serpent-lash-combat)+arcane combat+true strike seems like a fun combo, getting +18 (after -2 spell combat penalty) to trip/disarm, then getting a free trip/disarm against an adjacent target if successful, with the same bonus. Seems like that feat is made for a whip magus. The greater (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-serpent-lash-combat)version is interesting as well.

I don't think that works, since spell combat is a full-round action and serpent lash is a standard action.

Rubia

[stack]

Looks like you are right. Bah, ruin all the fun. Some Dm's may allow it.

Also, you may have run afoul of the thread necromancy rules.

[doko239]

Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery (both from Ultimate Combat) would be very useful here:


Whip Mastery (Combat)

Your superior expertise with this weapon does not provoke attacks of opportunity from your enemies.

Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (whip), base attack bonus +2.

Benefit: You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking with a whip. You can deal lethal damage with a whip, although you can still deal nonlethal damage when you want. Further, you can deal damage with a whip despite a creature's armor bonus or natural armor bonus.

Normal: Attacking with a whip provokes attacks of opportunity as if you used a ranged weapon. A whip deals no damage to a creature that has an armor bonus of +1 or natural armor bonus of +3.


Improved Whip Mastery (Combat)

You are able to entangle opponents with the coils of your whip.

Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (whip), Whip Mastery, base attack bonus +5.

Benefit: While wielding a whip, you threaten the area of your natural reach plus 5 feet. You can also use a whip to grasp an unattended Small or Tiny object within your whip's reach and pull that object into your square. To do so, you must hit AC 10 with a melee touch attack. Further, you can use the whip to grasp onto an object within your whip's reach, using 5 feet of your whip as if it were a grappling hook, allowing you to use the rest of your whip to swing on like a rope. As a free action, you can release the object your whip is grasping, but you cannot use the whip to attack while the whip is grasping an object.


To recap: No AOO for using a whip in close combat, can use ANY whip as a Scorpion Whip (hello Rust Monster Whip!), threaten 10' radius as a medium creature, and can Indiana Jones-style whip-swing across chasms etc., all for the low price of three feats, one of which you'd probably take anyway.

[Chained Birds]

For Whip Magus and Whip Mastery... Hmm,

lvl 1 (Bonus Human / Half-elf): EWP (Whip)
lvl 1: Weapon Focus (Whip)
lvl 3: Whip Mastery

After that, don't take any more whip mastery stuff because you'll probably be just using true strike+Combat Maneuver from now on or simply holding the whip in two hands and doing a supper Spellstrike.
The rest of your feats will probably support your magic output and physical damage as you now don't have to worry about an enemy's nat armor and can deal lethal damage.
If your DM is cool with giving you whip proficiency for free by trading out other weapon stuff, then you can maybe start out as a different race like Elf or something.

EDIT: Oh and seeing as you'll be using a whip instead of a Scimitar, might as well focus on Strength rather than Dex (still put stuff in it though) as you won't be able to dervish with a whip. Though you could do this:

1st (Bonus Human / Half-elf): EWP (Whip)
1st: Weapon Finesse
3rd: Weapon Focus (Whip)
5th: Whip Mastery

and then make your whip an Agile Weapon. Should make you less MAD at least and actually looks better from an optimization point of view.

[Rblock]

Kensai for the built in Exotic Weapon proficiency + Weapon Focus works as well, but you lose the armor proficiencies

The cool part about using a whip is as a full round action, use spell combat, attempt to disarm, then cast mage hand and steal their weapon (depending on it's weight).

Eg something like this
1st (Human): Combat Expertise
1st (Bonus): Weapon Focus (Whip) < Curious if that'd count for the scorpion whip as well, but figuring it might
1st: Improved Disarm
3rd: Whip Mastery


and as a full round action, disarm, mage hand, neuter their melee type.


You'd be losing your armor proficiencies, but a dip in Fighter could get that (+ a bonus feat) or a dip in alchemist if you wanna make extracts to heal, as well.

[doko239]

Kensai for the built in Exotic Weapon proficiency + Weapon Focus works as well, but you lose the armor proficiencies

The cool part about using a whip is as a full round action, use spell combat, attempt to disarm, then cast mage hand and steal their weapon (depending on it's weight).

Eg something like this
1st (Human): Combat Expertise
1st (Bonus): Weapon Focus (Whip) < Curious if that'd count for the scorpion whip as well, but figuring it might
1st: Improved Disarm
3rd: Whip Mastery


and as a full round action, disarm, mage hand, neuter their melee type.


You'd be losing your armor proficiencies, but a dip in Fighter could get that (+ a bonus feat) or a dip in alchemist if you wanna make extracts to heal, as well.

Weapon Focus will indeed work for a Scorpion Whip, however with Whip Mastery it doesn't matter, as any whip can be used to deal lethal damage with that feat.

Still doesn't let you threaten with a whip however. Not particularly important unless you play a high-dex build with Combat Reflexes, but in that case you will want Imp. Whip Mastery just for the threatened area.

[Chained Birds]

Kensai for the built in Exotic Weapon proficiency + Weapon Focus works as well, but you lose the armor proficiencies

The cool part about using a whip is as a full round action, use spell combat, attempt to disarm, then cast mage hand and steal their weapon (depending on it's weight).

Eg something like this
1st (Human): Combat Expertise
1st (Bonus): Weapon Focus (Whip) < Curious if that'd count for the scorpion whip as well, but figuring it might
1st: Improved Disarm
3rd: Whip Mastery


and as a full round action, disarm, mage hand, neuter their melee type.


You'd be losing your armor proficiencies, but a dip in Fighter could get that (+ a bonus feat) or a dip in alchemist if you wanna make extracts to heal, as well.

Seems like Kensai is the best Whipper out of the other forms of Magus. Good for them! :smallsmile:

[Paul H]

Hi

Erm - thought Wpn Focus required +1BAB? Magi only get Cleric BAB.

Thanks
Paul H

[Rblock]

Kensai's get Weapon Focus as a Bonus Feat, even though they don't fufill the prereqs for it.

[doko239]

Also, don't bother with the Cestus or other close-range weapon. Whips are exempt from the normal reach weapon rules, and can attack adjacent enemies.

[Chained Birds]

Also, don't bother with the Cestus or other close-range weapon. Whips are exempt from the normal reach weapon rules, and can attack adjacent enemies.

Though they do provoke AoOs sadly if used in close-combat without the required Whip-related feat. So before level 3, you'll probably have to 5ft step away from every enemy before doing your Spell Combat stuff... which is come down to Cast [Insert Non-touch Spell] + Whip Attack by that point. Maybe Acid Splash or something? That could work.

[Earthwalker]

If you are using pathfinder do Whips get the 15 foot reach still ?
I thought they were just a weapon with the trait Reach but with no number so they are a 10 foot reach weapon ?

I am more then happy to be wrong.

[grarrrg]

If you are using pathfinder do Whips get the 15 foot reach still ?
I thought they were just a weapon with the trait Reach but with no number so they are a 10 foot reach weapon ?

I am more then happy to be wrong.

Whip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/whip)

Short answer: 15ft. on offense. No threatened area. Improved Whip Mastery Feat gives them a threatened area of "5ft. +normal reach", which usually works out to 10ft.

Whips are one of those weapons that don't really work with a Table set-up.
Not without a half-dozen footnotes anyway...

[Earthwalker]

Whip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/whip)

Short answer: 15ft. on offense. No threatened area. Improved Whip Mastery Feat gives them a threatened area of "5ft. +normal reach", which usually works out to 10ft.

Whips are one of those weapons that don't really work with a Table set-up.
Not without a half-dozen footnotes anyway...

Thank you very much for that, I went looking for that and didn't find it.
Good to know and very helpful for my Bard.

[stack]

Only problem with kensai is that it is terrible. Diminished casting and losing spell recall in return for weapon prof, weapon focus, and some trivial bonuses? No thanks. More spells are better then anything they give and spell recall is amazing.

Tripping and disarming using true strike is nice though, you just take the wand wielder arcana, then never worry about taking any more tripping feats. You'll still be better than a dedicated tripper in many respects with minimal investment.

[Chained Birds]

Only problem with kensai is that it is terrible. Diminished casting and losing spell recall in return for weapon prof, weapon focus, and some trivial bonuses? No thanks. More spells are better then anything they give and spell recall is amazing.

I also see lose of spells as a severe downside, even before the whole no Spell Recall for a Nifty (at best) ability, but it is the fastest way for a non-Human/Half-Elf to qualify for Whip Mastery by level 3 (Without Multi-classing which defeats the purpose).

I'd just go with Half-Elf and this set of feats:
1st/ EWP (Whip) / Weapon Focus (Whip)
3rd/ Whip Mastery
5th/ -------
or
1st/ EWP (Whip) / Weapon Finesse
3rd/ Weapon Focus (Whip)
5th/ Whip Mastery
+ Agile Weapon Property

[grarrrg]

I'd just go with Half-Elf and this set of feats:
1st/ EWP (Whip) / Weapon Focus (Whip)
3rd/ Whip Mastery
5th/ -------

Except Magus is 3/4 Bab, and Weapon Focus needs +1 Bab.
Which either means "poor archetype" choice, or multiclass for 3rd level Whip Mastery.
Otherwise it's level 5 at the earliest for a 'normal' Magus.

And just throwing this out there for sake of options,
Spire Defender (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/spire-defender) is fairly solid.
You get are proficient with all Light and/or 1-handed Simple and Martial weapons, and one Exotic Light/1-Handed weapon (Whip maybe?).
You lose Armor Prof (but retain Armored casting...weird...), and get Combat Expertise and Dodge.
You do lose Spell Recall though (most Magus Archetypes lose it anyway), in exchange to temp boosts to certain skills.
_If_ you dip a level for Weapon Focus at level 1, then Spire Defender is fairly solid, as you get 3 feats and really only lose Spell Recall.

"Fighter" 1/Spire Defender Magus X would work nicely.
'normal Fighter works for the standard Bonus feat. Or Unarmed Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/unarmed-fighter) gets you your choice of Style feat. A few Standouts are Crane, Kirin, and Snapping Turtle.

[stack]

Or just use the scorpion whip and wear a cestus. No hoops to jump through, no wasted feats. You can still take the whip mastery chain if you want, just a touch later. You can even grab them with bonus feats. I would never hamstring my character by taking a lousy archetype just to be able to grab whip mastery two levels sooner.

[deuxhero]

Scorpion Whip is a light weapon and is terrible for power attacking though.

Piranha Strike fixes that though it has an extra feat tax.

[stack]

Does it seem strange to anyone else that the scorpion whip is light, but a regular whip is not? Before it was reprinted in UC, I'm sure they were both 1h, not light.

[Rainsinger]

So... in an attempt to be really, really disgustingly hilarious at the table...

Take the whip magus (or whip fighter, whip monk, whip whatever - hobgoblin cavalier is fun too), and go cleave and cleaving finish.

:: I attack the orc... hit. He goes down? Ok, then..
:: I attack the other orc. How? Well, he's 25' away, but within my cleaving finish range with my whip. Oh, yeah... and also... shocking grasp.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Too bad you can't use the hexes before lvl 5 (you get the option at 4, but you don't get an arcana at 4, you can take the extra arcana feat at 5).

Actually, you do get a hex at 4th level. You don't just lose a potent class feature like Spell Recall for "future options," thankfully.


Hex Magus (Su)

At 4th level, the hexcrafter magus gains access to a small number of witch’s hexes. The hexcrafter magus picks one hex from the witch’s hex class feature. He gains the benefit of or uses that hex as if he were a witch of a level equal to his magus level.

This feature replaces spell recall.

On a side note, when Magus would get Improved Spell Recall, Hexcrafter gets Spell Recall. The archetype only loses one, not both. And Ultimate Magic specifically says in such cases that when you get the improved version but lack the basic version, you get the lower level version of said class feature.


If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.

[Raven777]

/Turn undead!!! :smalleek:

You know, I'm glad this thread got brought up from the depths of the forum. A whip Magus sounds like a cool concept and a nice distraction from the countless Dervish Dancing ones.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Whip Mastery makes it much easier. Feat-intensive, but you only need the first two.

[Certified]

Whip Mastery makes it much easier. Feat-intensive, but you only need the first two.

The Whip is one of those underused Weapons and a Whip Magus is something I was recently thinking about. The Kensai gain Superior Reflexes which acts like Combat reflexes but for Intelligence, and stacks with Combat Reflexes. With Whip Mastery The character threatens a large area and can make multiple Attacks of Opportunity. Selecting the Tripping Strike along with the Maneuver Mastery Arcana allows for solid area denial.

Something like this might be used for pure denial. The Combat Patrol Chain is listed as optional in case you want to fold in more casting. However, by 15th Level the character would have 6ish Attacks of Opportunity per Round, Threaten 10 Feet, or 40 Feet if in a Patrol, and gain a free trip attempt on a Critical (19-20 with a +3ish bonus to confirm). Perfect Strike also allows them to increase the Critical Multiplier of their Weapon, this bonus is also applied to any spell they may be delivering with Spellstrike.

1 Kensai - Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip
1 Kensai - Weapon Focus Whip
1 Combat Expertise
3 Whip Mastery
5 Improved Trip
5 (Optional - Dodge)
7 Improved Whip Mastery
9 Combat Reflexes
11 Improved Critical
11 (Optional - Mobility)
13 Tripping Strike
15 (Optional - Combat Patrol)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Well, you threaten the normal area for reach weapons, plus next to you, as its normal reach (5 normally) plus 5. The third one, while kinda redundant, could be fun. Trap somebody and shock them with the coils of your whip.

[Doorhandle]

Oh yeah. Good call with the cestus, then.

I don't think the aklys works. It doesn't have reach or anything like that: you really are just throwing the weapon, which is not a melee attack. Melee attacks you make with it don't have reach. Making ranged attacks for spells is much more in the realm of Arcane Archer than Magus anyway.

Stick with the whip, I say. It sounds neat and seems to work the best.

I have a whip magus! And I have to say, whip + whip mastery over the scorpion whip, in part because the latter has some confusing rules-issues.

While low on damage, the reach also means you can cast ranged spells with impunity. Think about that.

Also, can you make 2-handed attacks with a whip?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

No, sadly. The latest stat entry for whips in Ultimate Equipment says that they cannot be two-handed. Which is why I hate Scorpion Whips, too many contrasting statblocks. That and cheesy.

[Psyren]

Pit Boss Hobgoblin has great Magus stats and get free Whip Proficiency. That's a build I've always wanted to play :smallsmile:

[SkarnerDaBest]

I laugh because I have a character in a pick-up game that is VERY similar to this one. I actually decided to go Magus Hexcrafter for similar reasons as you, but instead of a whip, i chose an Urumi(Flexible Sword/Sword Whip). I was actually getting ready to post the idea and ask for some help on the build when i found this, so way to go! i opted for better crit range on spells and attacks and a feinting bonus instead of range and touch with whip.