Are Vampires Viable as Player Characters?

[TheRinni]

The template seems a bit underwhelming. Don't get me wrong, they seem to have some nice bonuses to ability scores, skills, and whatnot. The bonus feats, and special abilities are nice too.

However, the +8 adjustment has to have a devastating impact on casters, and 8 levels without a single bonus to your BAB can't make them viable combatants.

Is it even possible to have a viable vampire character?

[Kuma Da]

Yes. Totally. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_the_requiem)

Edit: in DnD, yes, but the game kinda has to be specifically scaled for it.

[Lord Ruby34]

They work much better if you acquire the template in the game. And the DM doesn't screw you.

Anyway Wizards usually fails to balance level adjustments anyway so I would just ask the DM to lower it.

[Beelzebub1111]

The template seems a bit underwhelming. Don't get me wrong, they seem to have some nice bonuses to ability scores, skills, and whatnot. The bonus feats, and special abilities are nice too.

However, the +8 adjustment has to have a devastating impact on casters, and 8 levels without a single bonus to your BAB can't make them viable combatants.

Is it even possible to have a viable vampire character?

Part of it is a deterrent due to vampires weaknessess not being good for party dynamic unless all are vampires. The other bit is twofold:1)Because the undead type grants loads of immunities and 2)because they are nearly unkillable. They are not destroyed at zero hit points they go to gaseous form, they have "and"-type damage reduction, they do two negative levels of damage with each slam making them able to kill a non-immune 20th level enemy in ten hits.

Vampires deserve their LA.

[awa]

the vampire isn't going to hit often enough to use that level drain plus they have a ton of weakness like holy symbols. sure their hard to kill but so are monks. being 8 hd down makes you real vulnerable to anything level dependent like say rebuking.
edit
also unless they carry their coffin around with them they may have a very hard time getting back to it in time and if they do carry it the monster will see him float into it and can just smash the coffin.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would be playable. The CR calculations would have to be revised and some threats would cause a party wipe very quicky (high level cleric of pelor). Other than that it would be a fairly non lethal game. Fun if the game was asomewhat sandboxy kingdom builder with years between adventures.

[Big Fau]

Bard or some other buffer class is the best option, but I'd sooner just kill my character than play a Vampire in 3.5 (at least as-written). Just not worth the loss of 8 levels worth of class features.

[awa]

actually 8hd down and no con score you will not actually be that durable

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In a few very specific situations, such as gestalt, yes it can be playable, but in general no, it's not something that PC could have and still remain viable.



They work much better if you acquire the template in the game. And the DM doesn't screw you.

Not really. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a)

[Piggy Knowles]

Vampires get an unlimited ability to get permanent, controllable minions. With class levels. That alone can basically destroy a campaign.

As an aside, as a DM, I hate the restrictions that vampires have (crossing running water, and entering homes). It just grinds games to a halt when one party member can't do something simple and basic. If it was an all-vampire party, it probably wouldn't be so bad. But the one time I DM'd a party with a vampire PC, it got very old fast.

[Lord Ruby34]

Not really. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a)

Like I said, if your DM doesn't screw you. That counts as being screwed, official or not.

[Divide by Zero]

actually 8hd down and no con score you will not actually be that durable
This is true for undead in general. The difference between even a d4 and d12 is only 4 hp per level on average, so they're going to be on par with most characters that care at all about improving their HP even without the LA.

Vampires get an unlimited ability to get permanent, controllable minions. With class levels. That alone can basically destroy a campaign.
I was under the impression that this was the main reason for their massive LA, but I could be wrong.

As an aside, as a DM, I hate the restrictions that vampires have (crossing running water, and entering homes). It just grinds games to a halt when one party member can't do something simple and basic. If it was an all-vampire party, it probably wouldn't be so bad. But the one time I DM'd a party with a vampire PC, it got very old fast.
The thing is, most of those are classic vampire weaknesses, so removing them would change the flavor a lot.

[Big Fau]

I was under the impression that this was the main reason for their massive LA, but I could be wrong.

That and the Gaseous Form ability.

But LA is crapshot anyway. Apparently being Incorporeal is only LA +1.

[Piggy Knowles]

I was under the impression that this was the main reason for their massive LA, but I could be wrong.

Me too. Everything else is decent but not spectacular, and certainly not worth +8 LA. The unlimited spawning ability, though... that is problematic.


The thing is, most of those are classic vampire weaknesses, so removing them would change the flavor a lot.

I know, and I like the flavor. But when that river you happened to draw through a city turns picking up some groceries into an epic quest of pointlessness, or when you start having to find something for your vampire PC to do whenever his buddies kick in a door somewhere and he hasn't been invited, that flavor starts to taste a little bit sour.

[MeeposFire]

Vampires characters are very weak in 3.5 while simultaneously able to break the campaign with minions. Not a good combo. You would be better off changing the template for a special type of vampire (no minions and remove some other stuff to make for a much lower LA) or you can turn it into a class deal (not a savage progression but more like the dread necromancer). 4e D&D did this and it is probably the best Vampire for player characters to date (it can certainly participate in combat though it is more limited than most other classes).

[Jallorn]

The thing is, most of those are classic vampire weaknesses, so removing them would change the flavor a lot.

Actually, there's no such thing. Most of those "classic vampire weaknesses," can be traced back to the movie Nosfertu, at least for making them, "classic," if not for inventing them. I'm not totally certain of the specifics.

Also, The Demented One has a great Vampire Template fix.

[PersonMan]

Not really. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a)

Honestly, I don't see how anyone thought that was a good idea, ever.

The +2 CR right next to level 8 alone should have tipped them off.

[Drelua]

The unlimited spawn thing is very easy to fix with houserules. I would just say that a vampire cannot control other vampires unless they are a certain amount of levels lower than them. Or just use the vampire scion from Fang and Fury. I'd also change some of the idiotic weaknesses that they have, like fear of garlic. I don't care if its common knowledge, it doesn't make any sense.

[Taelas]

Blood drain can do wonders if you pump Grapple checks. The Con drain is nasty, even at 1d4 -- especially since you get free minions out of the deal. Say, be an Anthropomorphic African Elephant; that's Large size and +12 Str for 2 HD and 3 LAs. Throw Feral on top of that if you're feeling frisky.

Also, make sure you're made a vampire by a vampiric Dread Necromancer 8 with all the Corpsecrafter feats in a 8i]desecrate[/i]d area; it's a nice boost (even if it is cheesy).

With just that and 3 class levels (say, Barbarian), you're ECL 17 with 5d12+25 hit points, +23 Str (+4 enhancement), +4 Dex (+4 enhancement), -2 Int, +8 Wis and +4 Cha. Assuming a 28 PB, you put 16 points in Str, 6 points in Dex and 6 points in Int, and let the rest rot. Str 45, Dex 22, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12. You're Large-sized, and with Rage active, you have 49 Str. Not amazing, since you lack BAB to back it up, but you still have +27 grapple. Throw a +5 manual of gainful exercise on it, and it's +30. Still not amazing, and most warrior-types will shrug you off without any trouble whatsoever, but pinning high level wizards should be a cinch, especially if they cannot destroy you permanently.

But it is a massive one-trick pony, and not a good one at that. So the answer to your question is more or less 'no'.

[Piggy Knowles]

Blood drain can do wonders if you pump Grapple checks. The Con drain is nasty, even at 1d4 -- especially since you get free minions out of the deal. Say, be an Anthropomorphic African Elephant; that's Large size and +12 Str for 2 HD and 3 LAs.

Congratulations, you just spent +11 LA (and some racial hit die) to become a Dire Weasel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWeasel.htm)! Except maybe not quite as good, because the dire weasel just needs to hit, rather than successfully grapple. And it can't be removed unless you grapple it and pin it in return (or kill it, I suppose - that's probably the easier option).

The minion aspect is crazy and broken, but there are way easier (and more effective) ways to drain Con.

[Big Fau]

Congratulations, you just spent +11 LA (and some racial hit die) to become a Dire Weasel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWeasel.htm)! Except maybe not quite as good, because the dire weasel just needs to hit, rather than successfully grapple. And it can't be removed unless you grapple it and pin it in return (or kill it, I suppose - that's probably the easier option).

Especially considering the two best grappling classes in the game are the Druid and the Totemist, neither of which enjoys being Undead.

[TheRinni]

the vampire isn't going to hit often enough to use that level drain
See? That's my main problem with it. Going 8 levels without a BAB seems like it would make you useless in physical combat.

[Prime32]

See? That's my main problem with it. Going 8 levels without a BAB seems like it would make you useless in physical combat.Plus you have terrible hp and saves, and anti-mook spells like holy word (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm) kill you instantly.

I like Tome's vampire template (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/New_Rules#Vampire). It might be too powerful for weak groups, but it's much less of a hassle (details of what the subtypes do is at the top of the page).

[JaronK]

Compare it to a Learnean Lumi, which is 4HD and 6LA for near total immunity to damage (and many hostile effects). You can only be killed by a Disintegrate spell... nothing else. And it comes with 4 BAB to work with, plus an amazing form of two weapon fighting, as well as a host of other benefits.

Yeah, Vampire is just a really weak template.

JaronK

[Zonugal]

Now if you can get your Vampire to tenth level, than the Vampire Lord template opens up & you can begin to really have some fun.

[Prime32]

Compare it to a Learnean Lumi, which is 4HD and 6LA for near total immunity to damage (and many hostile effects). You can only be killed by a Disintegrate spell... nothing else. And it comes with 4 BAB to work with, plus an amazing form of two weapon fighting, as well as a host of other benefits.

Yeah, Vampire is just a really weak template.To anyone who's confused, Jaron means applying the multiheaded template with the Lernean option (can only be killed by decapitating all your heads, like a hydra)... to one of these guys.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/83020.jpg

[BIGMamaSloth]

To anyone who's confused, Jaron means applying the multiheaded template with the Lernean option (can only be killed by decapitating all your heads, like a hydra)... to one of these guys.
[/SPOILER]

yeah, decapitating one of those guys would be pretty problematic wouldn't it :smalltongue:?

[JaronK]

Yeah, they're immune to almost every weakness Learneans have (decapitation and death effects, primarily).

Also, you're a glowy guy with two floating heads. Clearly more awesome than a vampire.

JaronK

[Inferno]

I'd take a look at the half vampire in savage species, +2la.
slap on a fistfull of vampire weaknesses for better flavor (the less problematic ones) and there ya go. playable vampire.
might be worth dropping a point of la even, depending on the weaknesses and the player

[Vemynal]

let me pose another question then; what template do you think the vampire template deserves?

[Optimator]

Half-vampires are much more player-friendly. Probably not what you're looking for since it doesn't dish out negative levels.

[Taelas]

Congratulations, you just spent +11 LA (and some racial hit die) to become a Dire Weasel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWeasel.htm)! Except maybe not quite as good, because the dire weasel just needs to hit, rather than successfully grapple. And it can't be removed unless you grapple it and pin it in return (or kill it, I suppose - that's probably the easier option).

The minion aspect is crazy and broken, but there are way easier (and more effective) ways to drain Con.

I said it was bad. :smallyuk:

[TheRinni]

let me pose another question then; what template do you think the vampire template deserves?

Do you mean what level adjustment does it deserve? Your question confuses me.

Let me also pose another question: Is there any way to make it viable.

[Taelas]

Sure there is. Gestalt builds make pretty much any template viable.

[Southern Cross]

Rebuild the vampire template as a ten-level prestige class?

[Vemynal]

Do you mean what level adjustment does it deserve? Your question confuses me.

ya sorry, I meant what level adjustment do people think the vampire template deserves

[awa]

the big problem with templates in general is certain abilities are worth more at low level for example how much would you pay for a template that gives you once a day meteor swarm. At low level that crazy powerful worth several levels for a level 16+ wizard its not worth even one.

vampires have a lot of abilities that are very powerful at low level but become irreverent at high level. for example the summoning ability. On a character level 10+ its almost never going to be worth using in.

the infinite spawn should largely be ignored becuase any cleric or wizard can do the same thing with their spells.

actually i think due to the vampire weakness the nature of the game should be a huge factor such as how well know are a vampires weaknesses.

[Starbuck_II]

Plus you have terrible hp and saves, and anti-mook spells like holy word (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm) kill you instantly.

I like Tome's vampire template (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/New_Rules#Vampire). It might be too powerful for weak groups, but it's much less of a hassle (details of what the subtypes do is at the top of the page).

It should be con damage not drain. I perfer masquade game version where you just damage, someone will notice their con permanently gone.

Just take 1-3 levels of vamp savage species template to not have weaknesses and decent abilities. 1st level is best as damage, but 3rd gives dominate.

[Ravens_cry]

With high LA races, I personally consider the best option to be for everyone to play the race in question and adjust threats accordingly. After all, if everyone is playing LA, no one is. At least that is my philosophy on the matter.
A wonderment, would a Ring of Sustenance remove a vampires need to feed?

[Curious]

The Pathfinder Vampire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire) is only LA +2, and I don't consider it to be absurdly broken. Probably best for an Anti-paladin or Sorceror though, seeing as they benefit the most from a charisma boost.

[Drelua]

It says it provides life sustaining nourishment, so I'd say no to the ring of sustenance, if only for the sake of balance - so that you cant pay 2500gp to get rid of one of your main weaknesses. Its a bit ambiguous, though.

[Worira]

I'd say getting fried by sunlight is a much more important weakness than needing blood to live, especially seeing as the SRD doesn't even talk about needing to drink blood.

[Drelua]

I'd say getting fried by sunlight is a much more important weakness than needing blood to live, especially seeing as the SRD doesn't even talk about needing to drink blood.

Wow, I had not noticed that. Its kind of sad that they covered so many weaknesses that make so little sense, but they forgot about the one thing pretty much all vampire fiction has in common - vampires living off of human blood. That's sort of an important part.

[TheCountAlucard]

Wow, I had not noticed that. Its kind of sad that they covered so many weaknesses that make so little sense, but they forgot about the one thing pretty much all vampire fiction has in common - vampires living off of human blood. That's sort of an important part.Except that historically, D&D vampires have been more akin to energy vampires anyway... :smallsigh:

[Worira]

Well, for one thing, I'm pretty sure vampires in DnD don't need human blood, they just need blood period. For another thing, it really is something that can be pretty much glossed over in many DnD games, due to the combat-heavy nature of the game. Just drink the odd orc while slaughtering your daily allotment, and you're good to go.

[TheCountAlucard]

Oh, and also The Book of Bad Latin does gimp vampires even further, by making them take ability damage when they miss a meal. :smallsigh:

[Ravens_cry]

<insert Twilight joke here/>

[Amnestic]

Wow, I had not noticed that. Its kind of sad that they covered so many weaknesses that make so little sense, but they forgot about the one thing pretty much all vampire fiction has in common - vampires living off of human blood. That's sort of an important part.

Bram Stoker's Dracula (which, while obviously not the only work, does generally seem to be considered the primary force behind 'popularising' vampires in fiction) was merely weakened by sunlight, not killed by it. Most vampire fiction does make sunlight kill them though (with a notable exception of Count von Count from Sesame Street!)

[Safety Sword]

<insert Twilight joke here/>

....

Twilight IS the joke!

[Big Fau]

....

Twilight IS the joke!

Quiet! The fangirls might hear you...

[Zale]

Quiet! The fangirls might hear you...

Pelor protect us from the rabid vampire fangirls. :smalleek:

[Big Fau]

Pelor protect us from the rabid vampire fangirls. :smalleek:

Twilight was Pelor's day off. [/Pun]

[Steward]

Bram Stoker's Dracula (which, while obviously not the only work, does generally seem to be considered the primary force behind 'popularising' vampires in fiction) was merely weakened by sunlight, not killed by it. Most vampire fiction does make sunlight kill them though (with a notable exception of Count von Count from Sesame Street!)

Yeah, but the Count from Sesame Street uses an even weirder -- and, I think, older -- vampire weakness (compulsive counting).

Hey, maybe that might be a good weakness to replace the LA!

[Big Fau]

Yeah, but the Count from Sesame Street uses an even weirder -- and, I think, older -- vampire weakness (compulsive counting).

Hey, maybe that might be a good weakness to replace the LA!

That's actually based on the Chinese Vampire. They are compelled to count grains of rice if you throw a handful at one or leave a sack of grain on the table.

[Steward]

That's actually based on the Chinese Vampire. They are compelled to count grains of rice if you throw a handful at one or leave a sack of grain on the table.

And isn't rice a staple of Chinese agriculture? That sounds like Hell on Earth for those poor critters. Seriously, that sounds even worse than the Truenamer class (rimshot!).

[Big Fau]

And isn't rice a staple of Chinese agriculture? That sounds like Hell on Earth for those poor critters. Seriously, that sounds even worse than the Truenamer class (rimshot!).

They have to walk past it to trigger the weakness, but they can enter houses from any entrance without permission. The problem is setting it out in a large enough quantity that it takes them until sunrise to count it all requires a spacious table, something the poor in China wouldn't have.


And heaven forbid one of them has a degree in mathmatics, because they'll have finished counting it in under half an hour regardless of quantity.

[Xtomjames]

The Vampire template is as it should be, if you want to play a vampire but don't want the high adjustment or all the heavy handed bits (along with sun-immunity) play a half-vampire or a natural born vampire instead.

My favorite vampire characters are vampire monks btw...you want a potent and nasty combo there it is.

[Big Fau]

The Vampire template is as it should be, if you want to play a vampire but don't want the high adjustment or all the heavy handed bits (along with sun-immunity) play a half-vampire or a natural born vampire instead.

My favorite vampire characters are vampire monks btw...you want a potent and nasty combo there it is.

:smalleek:


That's terrible advice. Why would you suggest that? Even if the Slam's energy drain works on Unarmed Strikes (RAW: It doesn't), you are 8 levels behind everyone else and a Monk with no Con score. There's nothing good about a build like that!

[WinWin]

Emancipated Spawn could make it work...Though that way lies madness.

[Taelas]

:smalleek:


That's terrible advice. Why would you suggest that? Even if the Slam's energy drain works on Unarmed Strikes (RAW: It doesn't), you are 8 levels behind everyone else and a Monk with no Con score. There's nothing good about a build like that!

A monk's Unarmed Strike is considered a natural weapon.


A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Energy drain works on natural weapons, thus it works on a monk's Unarmed Strike. (If you check the example vampire monk/shadowdancer in the Monster Manual, they make this explicit.)

Aside from that, you're absolutely right; it's terrible.

[Shadowknight12]

Of course vampires are viable as PCs. You just need the DM to waive a substantial chunk of the LA, get rid of some of the template's abilities and give you a few ways to deal with the weaknesses (protips: Heart of Stone, Cloak of Dark Power, Suggestion ("DROP MIRROR/HOLY SYMBOL"), Major Image (of someone with the authority to invite you in, then willingly fail your save to disbelieve the illusion), Protection from Positive Energy, to name a few) and you're all set.

[Taelas]

You cannot fail against your own illusions. :smalltongue:

[Shadowknight12]

You cannot fail against your own illusions. :smalltongue:

And where would that tidbit of RAW be? It's certainly not here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm).

[Piggy Knowles]

A monk's Unarmed Strike is considered a natural weapon.

Energy drain works on natural weapons, thus it works on a monk's Unarmed Strike. (If you check the example vampire monk/shadowdancer in the Monster Manual, they make this explicit.)

Aside from that, you're absolutely right; it's terrible.

Sure, it works on natural weapons and therefore the monk's Unarmed Strike. However, it's still not a particularly good combo, because the Energy Drain can only be used once per round:


Energy Drain (Su)
Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.

[Taelas]

And where would that tidbit of RAW be? It's certainly not here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm).

Yes, it is.
A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.

You have incontrovertible proof: you just created it. You do not even get a saving throw.

[Shadowknight12]

Yes, it is.

You have incontrovertible proof: you just created it. You do not even get a saving throw.

That's not incontrovertible proof. Incontrovertible proof is sticking your hand into it.

What if I, as a vampire sorcerer, renamed my Major Image spell to Summon House Owner? And then fully believed that my spell does not create an illusion, but actually summons the owner of the house, forces him to invite me in, then teleports him back to where he was?

So much for incontrovertible proof.

[Taelas]

...

You create the illusion.

You are aware that you are creating an illusion. You cannot possibly convince yourself you are somehow NOT casting an illusion spell when you are the one casting it, unless you are so insane as to be unplayable as a player character.

The idea is completely absurd.

[Shadowknight12]

...

You create the illusion.

You are aware that you are creating an illusion. You cannot possibly convince yourself you are somehow NOT casting an illusion spell when you are the one casting it, unless you are so insane as to be unplayable as a player character.

Name the rule that states that spontaneous casters are always 100% aware of the entirety of the effects of the spells they are creating. Wizards have a specific exception in the rules that state that they apprehend the full details of a spell when they read it from a spellbook. This would apply to their own as well.

A spontaneous caster has no such rule. Unless she succeeds on a Spellcraft check against her own spell effect (a check that is voluntary, not mandatory), she is not actually aware of the effects of the spell she has just created.

[Taelas]

That's wrong. Spontaneous casters still know their spells, and thus they know their effects. Again, this entire idea is absurd.

[Sucrose]

That's all rather beside the point; Vampires being unable to enter unless given the authority to walk in is not a matter of psychology: it is an iron-bound rule of being a vampire. The possibility that you think you have been invited does not change the fact that you have not. Thus, you are prevented, by the very same unholy contract that keeps you moving, from entering the home.

[Shadowknight12]

That's wrong. Spontaneous casters still know their spells, and thus they know their effects. Again, this entire idea is absurd.

Prove that it is wrong, then. Knowing how to cast a spell does not imply that one must know what effects it will have. A rogue with a wand can activate the wand with a successful Use Magic Device check and it will still not know what the wand is capable of doing. Imbue With Spell Ability does not specify that the recipient is aware of what the spells she can cast actually do.


That's all rather beside the point; Vampires being unable to enter unless given the authority to walk in is not a matter of psychology: it is an iron-bound rule of being a vampire. The possibility that you think you have been invited does not change the fact that you have not. Thus, you are prevented, by the very same unholy contract that keeps you moving, from entering the home.

That's not actually spelled out in the rules. The rules merely say "utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so." It is not specified, in fact, whether it is a matter of belief or some supernatural force at work. If it were, one would think that all it would take to overcome it would be to have an Anti Magic Field around the vampire.

[Beelzebub1111]

The worst part of being a vampire is having to drag around your coffin everywhere if you want to travel. or at least keep it within nine miles.

EDIT: and no DM in their right mind would interpret the rules in the way that you're describing Shadowknight. Sorry to say.

[Shadowknight12]

EDIT: and no DM in their right mind would interpret the rules in the way that you're describing Shadowknight. Sorry to say.

Funny, since I have never played a vampire before. My players, on the other hand, have. And oh, my, I would happen to be one of those DMs you mention. :smallwink:

[ArcanistSupreme]

The worst part of being a vampire is having to drag around your coffin everywhere if you want to travel. or at least keep it within nine miles.

EDIT: and no DM in their right mind would interpret the rules in the way that you're describing Shadowknight. Sorry to say.

I'd allow it if it was roleplayed well enough. A crazy enough vampire that had his spellcasting fluffed as his subconscious response to the world would be super interesting and/or hilarious. It's a stupid limitation, so I don't think that expending spell slots to get around it is in any way game-breaking.

[hamishspence]

In Heroes of Horror, the cleric of Kas in For Hate's Sake is fluffed this way- his subconscious wishes are manifested as spells, in the early stages of his career, before he finds Kas and starts actively worshipping him.

[Xtomjames]

A vampire is a viable character as a monk, its not bad advice it's brilliant, I know I've played them. They're one of my favorite character constructions.

If it's a low level campaign (1-6th) then you really can't do it, though the Half-Vampire template gives you the slam attack and drain ability without all the uber bonuses and with only a +3 to level adjustment

Another option is to multiclass using the Vampire Spawn class in Libris Mortis. Or to go gestalt, leveling up in your monster class (as a vampire) and in your main class (as a monk, rogue or what ever) side by side. Gestalting is the best way to eliminate all of the LA and HD ECL stack.

You guys just need to have more imagination instead of just going "it's a terrible suggestion".

[awa]

it says someone who has authority to let you in not someone you think has authority.

Because by that logic a cleric can use the a mirror and a high bluff check to gain their gods forgiveness.

and to be fair he said a dm in his right mind not any dm

[Beelzebub1111]

Another problem with vampires, you need five hit-dice in order to be a vampire and not a spawn. Making the minimum ECL for a vampire is 13

[ArcanistSupreme]

it says someone who has authority to let you in not someone you think has authority.

Because by that logic a cleric can use the a mirror and a high bluff check to gain their gods forgiveness.

and to be fair he said a dm in his right mind not any dm

Meh, the SRD at least is vague enough that I'd let it slide; it doesn't say if it's some unholy covenant or just a compulsion. And since it's most likely just a psychological compulsion (again, nothing says an AMF turns it off), I see nothing wrong with someone/thing that the vampire totally and utterly believes to have the authority to do so letting him or her into a building.

But as vaguely as that limitation is written, it ultimately comes down to the DM. Personally, I don't think RAW is clear enough to make a solid case either way.

[awa]

an antimagic field has nothing to do with it
the antimagic field dosent kill a zombie or a construct how does it have any relevance to the discussion at all?

by that logic you could say sword damage is all in your head and a good bluff and a mirror makes you immune to swords.

[Xtomjames]

Another problem with vampires, you need five hit-dice in order to be a vampire and not a spawn. Making the minimum ECL for a vampire is 13

Again ECL and Actual Level are two separate things, and with a Vampire Spawn construction ECL goes away while you gain at each level the bonuses of the listed abilities for the Monster Class.

Out right in a normal XP game at 10th level a player could play an 8th level vampire 2nd level (any class here) legally, the DM just has to adjust the XP and gold costs to the player's ECL. A vampire spawn level 1 has 1 HD and then multiclasses into another class if the player wants. The Half-Vampire gives a LA of 3 no HD gained.

[awa]

i think hes taking about the fact that someone turned by a vampire with 4 or less hd becomes a vampire thrall. only creatures with more then 4 hd become vampires

[ArcanistSupreme]

an antimagic field has nothing to do with it
the antimagic field dosent kill a zombie or a construct how does it have any relevance to the discussion at all?

by that logic you could say sword damage is all in your head and a good bluff and a mirror makes you immune to swords.

Sword=Concrete Object
Authority=Abstract Concept
Concrete Object=/=Abstract Concept
Therefore that is not a good comparison. How is he prevented from entering if the being does not truly have the authority to let him in? He either has to be psychologically or magically prevented. If it's magical, well, he needs an item of AMF, which is annoying but doable. If it's psychological, the other way works. Either way, you can get around what many believe to be an arbitrary and pointless limitation.

[awa]

how does he walk around with out being alive? the vampire dossnt die in an anti magic field therefor it must be psychological if we go this rout you can kill a vampire with a bluff check.

[ArcanistSupreme]

how does he walk around with out being alive? the vampire dossnt die in an anti magic field therefor it must be psychological if we go this rout you can kill a vampire with a bluff check.

And now you're just killing catgirls. Not cool, dude. Also, physiological=/=psychological.

If it was explained that the vampire needed the essence of authority to compel itself over a threshold and it was tagged with a (Su) label, we'd know what was going on and could rule in your favor on this. But it doesn't say that. So it comes down to whatever the DM feels like, and I feel like there are strong cases for both sides.

[Xtomjames]

Well a vampire spawn isn't a full vampire, the Vampire Spawn progression gets you to being a Full vampire...

Vampires aren't affected by anti-magic field because they're not put together by magic of any form. They're an undead template.

A summoned undead creature doesn't disappear or fall to bones if it enters an anti-magic field. An anti-magic field would only suppress a summon dead spell cast within it's area of effect. Anti-magic also technically doesn't negate magic, it only suppresses it.

For example a bard trying to use magic to buff a fellow casts a buff spell in an anti-magic field unknowingly the buff magic would go off but the buffed person wouldn't gain the spell's benefit until he and the bard are outside of the anti-magic field.

Like wise if a Bard cast a buff onto another person and that person entered an anti-magic field the buff would be suppressed until it either ran our or the player left the anti-magic field.

Anti-magic field doesn't suppress supernatural abilities or extraordinary abilities.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Vampires aren't affected by anti-magic field because they're not put together by magic of any form. They're an undead template.

A summoned undead creature doesn't disappear or fall to bones if it enters an anti-magic field. An anti-magic field would only suppress a summon dead spell cast within it's area of effect. Anti-magic also technically doesn't negate magic, it only suppresses it.

For example a bard trying to use magic to buff a fellow casts a buff spell in an anti-magic field unknowingly the buff magic would go off but the buffed person wouldn't gain the spell's benefit until he and the bard are outside of the anti-magic field.

Like wise if a Bard cast a buff onto another person and that person entered an anti-magic field the buff would be suppressed until it either ran our or the player left the anti-magic field.

Anti-magic field doesn't suppress supernatural abilities or extraordinary abilities.

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) disagrees:


]A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field.

Emphasis mine. But good point about it not affecting vampires existing inside one.

[awa]

your the one whose decided anything not written out as supernatural must be all in his head not me.

vulnerability to sunlight doesn't go away in an anti magic field so a vampire who convinces himself that his glue on sparkles make him sun proof is good?

my point about vampires not dying in a antimagic field is their is a precedence for not all magic being affected by antimagic fields.
If all you need was anyone to say you could enter then it would say that. it says someone in authority not some one you think is in authority. not someone who you are pretending is in authority.

edit that's my point vampires do not die in an anti magic field so why should it be assumed that the traits inherent to the creatures namely their vulnerabilities must be purely mental unless it says they are (which it does not)

[Jeebers]

:smalleek:

That's terrible advice. Why would you suggest that? Even if the Slam's energy drain works on Unarmed Strikes (RAW: It doesn't), you are 8 levels behind everyone else and a Monk with no Con score. There's nothing good about a build like that!

Also, you couldn't increase your Monk levels nor would you get your Monk abilities, since you are no longer Lawful. All vampires in DND are CE.

[ArcanistSupreme]

your the one whose decided anything not written out as supernatural must by all in his head not me.

vulnerability to sunlight doesn't go away in an anti magic field so a vampire who convinces himself that his glue on sparkles make him sun proof is good?

my point about vampires not dying in a antimagic field is their is a precedence for not all magic being affected by antimagic fields.
If all you need was anyone to say you could enter then it would say that. it says someone in authority not some one you think is in authority. not someone who you are pretending is in authority.

Again:
Sunlight=Concrete Object
Authority=Abstract Concept
Concrete=/=Abstract
and
Physiological response to sunlight=/=Psychological response to authority

Stop comparing apples to oranges.

[Lord Ruby34]

Also, you couldn't increase your Monk levels nor would you get your Monk abilities, since you are no longer Lawful. All vampires in DND are CE.

Please read this. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)

[Drelua]

Also, you couldn't increase your Monk levels nor would you get your Monk abilities, since you are no longer Lawful. All vampires in DND are CE.

Not all vampires are chaotic. It may say always chaotic evil, but if you look on page 305 under alignment and look at their explanation of 'always', you'll see that it is not absolute. Also, look at the monster manual 5, page 193. You'll see an example of a NE vampire.

[awa]

to a vampire authority is not an abstract concept its very real it stops them from entering buildings

A paladin code of conduct is both abstract and untyped so if he convinces himself that eating babies is good he should have no problem right?
exp costs are abstract and untyped do i still need to pay them?

[Xtomjames]

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) disagrees:



Emphasis mine. But good point about it not affecting vampires existing inside one.

Yes but let's pay attention to what it actually says and what I actually said. Summoned undead creature would wink out but they don't just stop being, if the anti-magic field moves away from the creature it reappears. A natural undead creature (such as a ghost) wouldn't be affected, nor would a natural vampire or person turned into a vampire. I did get the supernatural ability bit wrong and I apologize, there are variants on the anti-magic field that exist and some are different than others.

However this still means that a vampire wouldn't be affected by an anti-magic field at least in regards to it's ability to exist.

[Xtomjames]

to a vampire authority is not an abstract concept its very real it stops them from entering buildings

A paladin code of conduct is both abstract and untyped so if he convinces himself that eating babies is good he should have no problem right?
exp costs are abstract and untyped do i still need to pay them?


Your argument to some degree is valid, though reading the Alignment's area might make it hard to prove your point. A note: XP costs aren't abstract, they are in fact almost Always very explicit.

[Beelzebub1111]

Again:
Sunlight=Concrete Object
Authority=Abstract Concept
Concrete=/=Abstract
and
Physiological response to sunlight=/=Psychological response to authority

Stop comparing apples to oranges.

That's not necessarily true. In a world where the "Abstract Concepts" of good and evil have concrete effects(Holy Word, Unholy Blight, Dectect Evil) Authority could very well be a concrete concept in a similar fashion.

[ArcanistSupreme]

to a vampire authority is not an abstract concept its very real it stops them from entering buildings

A paladin code of conduct is both abstract and untyped so if he convinces himself that eating babies is good he should have no problem right?
exp costs are abstract and untyped do i still need to pay them?

I think you aren't quite getting the distinction I'm making; yes, abstract concepts can have an enormous impact on someone psychologically and then physiologically in turn. For example, foods that are in no way harmful to humans can cause a person to feel violently sick if that person finds out that this same food, which she just ate on accident, is a sin to eat according to her beliefs.

Now take another human being, raise them from infancy to believe that this food tastes great for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and there is no problem.

All I'm saying is that it's possible to interpret it as a psychological need rather than a physiological one. The RAW is unclear and the RAI nonexistent.

The paladin is actually a similar case, although RAW is slightly clearer. As long as the paladin is LG and "respects legitimate authority, acts with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), helps those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punishes those who harm or threaten innocents," he's in good shape. But as far as whether a paladin falls if he unknowingly helps an evil being or fails to punish an evildoer because he is unaware of the evildoer is much more DM dependent. RAI seems to imply some kind of external divine power policing the paladin's actions, but even that isn' very clear. And, of course, the paladin's code is another mess entirely, so let's stay on topic.


Yes but let's pay attention to what it actually says and what I actually said. Summoned undead creature would wink out but they don't just stop being, if the anti-magic field moves away from the creature it reappears. A natural undead creature (such as a ghost) wouldn't be affected, nor would a natural vampire or person turned into a vampire. I did get the supernatural ability bit wrong and I apologize, there are variants on the anti-magic field that exist and some are different than others.

However this still means that a vampire wouldn't be affected by an anti-magic field at least in regards to it's ability to exist.

I appear to have been arguing exactly what you just said. :smallredface: I apologize.

[ArcanistSupreme]

That's not necessarily true. In a world where the "Abstract Concepts" of good and evil have concrete effects(Holy Word, Unholy Blight, Dectect Evil) Authority could very well be a concrete concept in a similar fashion.

But it only has a concrete effect via magic. And if it's a magical effect...

[Zonugal]

I too think that +8 Level Adjustment is a pretty steep price for a template but if we simple adjust the Vampire Lord template on top of the Vampire template we get this (which might be worth the +8 LA):

The Vampire
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM5_Gallery/106347.jpg

The Vampire is a template that can be applied to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature with a character level of at least 10. The creature uses all the special abilities of the base creature, except as noted below.

Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid). Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.

Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s, then add +1 hit point per level or HD of the base creature.

Speed: Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the Vampire retains the ability to swim and is not vulnerable to immersion in running water (see below), plus Vampires can fly with speed 50 ft. and perfect maneuverability.

AC: The base creature’s natural armor bonus improves by +12.

Attacks: A Vampire retains all the attacks of the base creature and also gains a slam attack (1d6 damage) if it didn’t already have one. If the base creature can use weapons, the Vampire retains this ability. A creature with natural weapons retains those natural weapons. A Vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any). A Vampire armed with a weapon uses its slam or a weapon, as it desires.

Special Attacks: A Vampire retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below. The saving throw, where applicable, is 10 + 1/2 the Vampire's class and nonclass HD + the Vampire's Charisma modifier, unless noted otherwise.

Domination (Su): A Vampire can crush an opponent’s will in two manners, by voice or by looking their victim's eyes. Speaking does not require line of sight to the target, but the target must be able to hear the Vampire's voice when it speaks at a normal volume level. Looking into their victim's eyes is similar to a gaze attack, except that the Vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the Vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the Vampire’s influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a Vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain three negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the Vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A Vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.

Blood Drain (Su): A Vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4+2 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the Vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

Special Qualities: The Vampire retains all the special qualities of the base creature, except as modified below, and gains those listed below.

Alternate Form (Su): A Vampire can assume the form of any animal, as the druid ability wild shape used by a 12th-level druid. The Vampire can use this power at will as a move-equivalent action. The Vampire lord can change from one animal shape to another without having to revert to its humanoid form. While in its alternate form, the Vampire loses its natural slam attack and dominate ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.)

Children of the Night (Su): Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the Vampire until released. Further, the Vampire can sense through the senses of any such commanded creatures, and communicate emphatically with them, to a range of 10 miles.

Control Weather (Sp): A Vampire can cast either control weather or fog cloud as a 12th-level sorcerer at will.

Create Spawn (Su): A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a Vampire’s energy drain rises as a lesser Vampire, never Vampire spawn, 1d4 days after burial. The new lesser Vampire is enslaved to the Vampire until its master's death, and the willpower of the Vampire is too strong to allow it to break free of its enslavement.
If the Vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a lesser Vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new lesser Vampire or spawn is under the command of the Vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a Vampire may have enslaved lesser Vampire & spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any lesser Vampire & spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed lesser Vampires or Vampire spawn. A lesser Vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master Vampire can control a greater number of lesser Vampires or spawns in this fashion. A Vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved lesser Vampire or spawn in order to enslave a new lesser Vampire or spawn, but once freed, a lesser Vampire or Vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.

Damage Reduction (Ex): A Vampire has damage reduction 10/adamantine and magic. A Vampire’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Fast Healing (Ex): A Vampire heals 8 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 24 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a Vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a Vampire is helpless. A Vampire can have many places of rest prepared, since the only requirement is some soil from its homeland (the place where the base creature was born). It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 8 hit points per round.

Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a Vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.

Resistances (Ex): A Vampire has resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10.

Spider Climb (Ex): A Vampire can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.

Telekinesis (Su): A Vampire can use telekinesis (caster level 12th) at will.

Telepathy (Su): A Vampire can communicate telepathically with any living creature within 100 feet that has a language, and with any lesser Vampire & spawn under its direct control to a range of 1 mile.

Turn Resistance (Ex): A Vampire has +8 turn resistance.

Saves: The Vampire applies its Charisma modifier to all saving throws in addition to its other ability modifiers (as a paladin does).

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +12, Dex +8, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +8. As an undead creature, a Vampire has no Constitution score.

Skills: Vampires have a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot checks. In addition the vampire receives a +12 racial bonus on Sense Motive checks. Otherwise same as the base creature.

Feats: Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Leadership and Lightning Reflexes, assuming the base creature meets the prerequisites and doesn’t already have these feats.

Challenge Rating: +5

Level Adjustment: +8

Alignment: Any evil.

Vampire Weaknesses
Vampire have far fewer weaknesses than normal lesser Vampires, a benefit of their quest for power.

Vampires cannot be repelled by garlic or holy symbols, though they can be turned. Mere presentation of a holy symbol has no effect. They have no fear of mirrors, and they cast reflections as living beings do.

Vampires can cross over or through running water with no impediments. They are not harmed in any way by immersion in running water.

A Vampire is not as vulnerable to sunlight as a lesser Vampire, and can go about in broad daylight if it desires. Under sunlight, it takes a -4 penalty to all ability scores and on all attacks, saves, and skill checks. Also, a Vampire in sunlight cannot use any of its supernatural powers. Victims of its domination power are not freed of the Vampire's control during daylight hours; the Vampire can verbally command any creature in its thrall even in direct sunlight. Spells that produce sunlight effects cannot harm a Vampire; only direct light from the sun can weaken it. If the Vampire is destroyed while exposed to direct sunlight, it seems to die, but unless the body is disposed of as described below, it assumes gaseous form as soon as the sun sets and attempts to return to any number of its coffins.

A Vampire is not killed outright by a wooden stake driven through its heart, though the stake does cause normal damage if it can bypass the creature's damage reduction.

The only way to make sure that a Vampire does not return is to cut its head from its body, burn the body and the head separately, scatter the ashes from the body over running water, immerse the ashes from the head in holy water, and bury the immersed ashes in consecrated ground. However, if the head ashes are ever unearthed and somehow separated from the holy water, dried thoroughly, and then subjected to an unhallow spell, the Vampire can regenerate in a week if the ashes are placed inside one of its places of rest.

[Shadowknight12]

to a vampire authority is not an abstract concept its very real it stops them from entering buildings

A paladin code of conduct is both abstract and untyped so if he convinces himself that eating babies is good he should have no problem right?
exp costs are abstract and untyped do i still need to pay them?

ArcanistSupreme has been doing a pretty good job at proving you wrong and pointing out the logical inconsistencies of your counter-arguments, so I'll just jump in and say that you are providing no evidence for your claims. You are comparing things that are flat-out incomparable, and you have been doing so over and over again. None of the examples you are citing are the same as the vampire's inability to enter a dwelling.

Whether you agree or not, the fact is that, by RAW, you don't know why the vampire can't enter a dwelling. It could be the workings of a divine entity, a supernatural effect, a compulsion or an intrinsic part of his undead physiology.

An illusion is meant to deceive and duplicate, that's their entire purpose. Illusions can duplicate real, concrete objects, and they can also affect the mind. A subject who does not disbelieve an illusion treats it and is treated by it, for all intents and purposes, as though it was actually real.

These are facts and they are sustained by the rules. You may say that a DM might interpret things differently and you'd be quite right. However, you cannot prove, with actual evidence, that what I've just said is wrong.

[Drelua]

Why is this thread stuck on arguing the use of an illusion to get permission to enter someone's house? There are many other ways to do it:
-have someone else cast the illusion, eliminating the issue of believing your own illusions
-enchantment (charm, dominate spell or vampire ability, etc.)
-bluff (help! I'm horribly wounded!)
-or, if you can't get in, light the place on fire and wait for the people to come out
We're all stuck on one way to get past a minor weakness than might work, but that really can't be argued by RAW, when the fact is, it is a very easy thing to overcome, in both magical and mundane ways, that no half decent player is going to have much trouble with.

[awa]

i disagree with his argument becuase its badly flawed
by raw it says they have a weakness and it does not say by raw any way to ignore it so by raw you are wrong if you say you can ignore just becuase.

it list authority not pretend authority not illusions you think have authority it does not say mental affect. so any ruling that the vampire can ignore his restriction becuase hes a moron are house rules
edit
illusions are not real killing an illusionary dragon gives no xp. Illusionary components do not work. an illusionary healing potion will not heal you. an illusion cant give you authority to enter a house that isnt his.
edit 2
you have decided that becuase it does not specify how it works that you don't need to follow the rules that it dose say.

[Shadowknight12]

Why is this thread stuck on arguing the use of an illusion to get permission to enter someone's house? There are many other ways to do it:
-have someone else cast the illusion, eliminating the issue of believing your own illusions
-enchantment (charm, dominate spell or vampire ability, etc.)
-bluff (help! I'm horribly wounded!)
-or, if you can't get in, light the place on fire and wait for the people to come out
We're all stuck on one way to get past a minor weakness than might work, but that really can't be argued by RAW, when the fact is, it is a very easy thing to overcome, in both magical and mundane ways, that no half decent player is going to have much trouble with.

If you find the actual person with the authority to invite you in, your gaze takes care of that. The entire point of the illusion is to do away with the need to interact with the person in question. Such a circumstance will not always be available for you to take advantage of.


i disagree with his argument becuase its badly flawed
by raw it says they have a weakness and it does not say by raw any way to ignore it so by raw you are wrong if you say you can ignore just becuase.

it list authority not pretend authority not illusions you think have authority it does not say mental affect. so any ruling that the vampire can ignore his restriction becuase hes a moron are house rules

Yet I can use the Suggestion spell to get a person wielding a mirror or holy symbol to drop it. Or Charm Person. Or Dominate Person. Or even Command. I can use Cloak of Dark Power to become immune to the effects of sunlight. Can't stake a vampire's heart if it's under the effect of Heart of Stone (unless you find the actual heart, which is conveniently located elsewhere).

Seems to me that magic just got rid of a good chunk of a vampire's weaknesses.

Again, you are making all these assertions and not proving them. Yes, it doesn't say that you can be granted entrance by the illusion of a person with the authority to do so. Yet it also doesn't say that you can't do all the effects I listed above, which allow you to get around or ignore a vampire's weaknesses. Not to mention that Cloak of Dark Power specifically states that you are protected from the effects of sunlight, which is only relevant to those who are actually weak to it (and it goes on to state that it specifically protects a drow from their sunlight weakness). Simply because a way to get around those weaknesses is not stated in the rules doesn't mean it's not possible. You'll have to do better than that to establish proof.

EDIT:


edit
illusions are not real killing an illusionary dragon gives no xp. Illusionary components do not work. an illusionary healing potion will not heal you. an illusion cant give you authority to enter a house that isnt his.
edit 2
you have decided that becuase it does not specify how it works that you don't need to follow the rules that it dose say.

I would like to point this out:

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/magicOverview.htm).


Shadow
A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.

Defeating a dragon created by an illusion of the Shadow subschool should grant XP, because the dragon does real damage and has actual stats. More information in Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm).

[ArcanistSupreme]

Why is this thread stuck on arguing the use of an illusion to get permission to enter someone's house? There are many other ways to do it:
-have someone else cast the illusion, eliminating the issue of believing your own illusions
-enchantment (charm, dominate spell or vampire ability, etc.)
-bluff (help! I'm horribly wounded!)
-or, if you can't get in, light the place on fire and wait for the people to come out
We're all stuck on one way to get past a minor weakness than might work, but that really can't be argued by RAW, when the fact is, it is a very easy thing to overcome, in both magical and mundane ways, that no half decent player is going to have much trouble with.

Of course there are other, easier ways to get around it. But what is the point of these forums if not to debate the minutiae? Plus, I think that the idea would be fun to roleplay, and you can only do that if you can legitimize it within the rules.


i disagree with his argument becuase its badly flawed
by raw it says they have a weakness and it does not say by raw any way to ignore it so by raw you are wrong if you say you can ignore just becuase.

it list authority not pretend authority not illusions you think have authority it does not say mental affect. so any ruling that the vampire can ignore his restriction becuase hes a moron are house rules
edit
illusions are not real killing an illusionary dragon gives no xp. Illusionary components do not work. an illusionary healing potion will not heal you. an illusion cant give you authority to enter a house that isnt his.
edit 2
you have decided that becuase it does not specify how it works that you don't need to follow the rules that it dose say.

And now you are comparing verbal/mental interaction with physical and magical interaction. :smallsigh:


Good points and stuff.

Don't forget that any item that grants you a swim speed gets rid of that pesky vulnerability to running water.

[Shadowknight12]

Don't forget that any item that grants you a swim speed gets rid of that pesky vulnerability to running water.

I knew I was forgetting one. Swim, a second level druid and sorc/wiz spell from Stormwrack, should take care of that one too. Excellent.

[Taelas]

A shadow illusion of a figure of authority can work -- they are quasi-real, after all. But that is the important point.

Also, the one who said vampires are all CE should go read the entry; it says "Alignment: Evil (any)".

[Curious]

A shadow illusion of a figure of authority can work -- they are quasi-real, after all. But that is the important point.

Also, the one who said vampires are all CE should go read the entry; it says "Alignment: Evil (any)".

I would tend to agree; it in no way states that a vampire can't enter a home because of supernatural intervention. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that it is some form of mental obstacle, which a clever illusion could bypass.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Also, depending on what you need to do to those inside the residence, you could always use the tried and true Spike Method - burn it down.

[Alleran]

If you want to dodge some of the LA, you could use a Savage Species ritual to get the Dragon type (or be a Dragonwrought Kobold, I suppose). Then as long as you're at least in the adult age category, you can pick up the Vampiric Dragon template from Draconomicon, which is only a +5 LA but provides many of the same benefits as the regular Vampire template.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm not sure what the name of the spell is (so it might have already been mentioned), but Lords of Darkness has one that allows you to be immune to sunlight (and count as being in darkness) for ten minutes per caster level. If you can get that as a continuous enchantment on a ring or some other item, then you can walk around in the sunlight with full access to all your vampire abilities.

[Shadowknight12]

EDIT: Oh, and I'm not sure what the name of the spell is (so it might have already been mentioned), but Lords of Darkness has one that allows you to be immune to sunlight (and count as being in darkness) for ten minutes per caster level. If you can get that as a continuous enchantment on a ring or some other item, then you can walk around in the sunlight with full access to all your vampire abilities.

Cloak of Dark Power (SpC) already does that, and it's a first level spell. The ensuing magical item would probably be cheaper with such a low CL requirement.

[hamishspence]

Not all vampires are chaotic. It may say always chaotic evil, but if you look on page 305 under alignment and look at their explanation of 'always', you'll see that it is not absolute. Also, look at the monster manual 5, page 193. You'll see an example of a NE vampire.

If you check the MM, it's "Always Evil (any)". They were only Always Chaotic Evil in 3.0- this was changed in 3.5.

Quite apart from the possibility of changing alignment.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Not really. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a)Honestly, I don't see how anyone thought that was a good idea, ever.

The +2 CR right next to level 8 alone should have tipped them off.Actually its a wonderful idea, spoof


ya sorry, I meant what level adjustment do people think the vampire template deserves+4, assuming the DM curb-stomp nerfs minion abuse but at the same time doesn't have many high level clerics of pelor running around...


Yeah, Vampire is just a really weak template.Truth.

Except for the fact that there is one optimal (and frankly pretty awesome) vampiric build in existence by

[Starbuck_II]

Actually its a wonderful idea, spoof

+4, assuming the DM curb-stomp nerfs minion abuse but at the same time doesn't have many high level clerics of pelor running around...

Truth.

Except for the fact that there is one optimal (and frankly pretty awesome) vampiric build in existence by

I kinda wish Vampire Spawn had a LA of only 2 (instead of --) since the diluted abilities are reasonable for LA.

[HunterOfJello]

I noticed today that Pathfinder has a version of the Dhampir (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/dhampir) in their srd that's pretty cool. I would suggest that race over playing a vampire any day.

Anyone who is dead set on playing a vampire should watch the Vampire Hunter D movies.

~

Damn. Now I feel like making a character based on D....