Opposing Factions ( Community World Building project )

[Calliope121]

Okay, So I would like to try another community world building project, because frankly, I find them fascinating. So the general idea, is that this world is run by two factions. They are constantly fighting, however neither can exist without the other. Other than that go crazy. I will occasionally be putting issues up to vote, the first one being, what are the factions. I will be taking votes and suggestions until this Friday.

[Arathnos]

I like it. Right off the bat, this world is built for adventuring. The inherent conflict and dependency of these two factions provides infinite fodder for PCs and all sorts of strife for this world.

Let's generate a list of dualities or opposing concepts.

Light vs. Dark
Good vs. Evil
Order vs. Chaos
Sun vs. Moon
Fire vs. Ice
Honesty vs. Lies/Deceit
Life vs. Death
Heaven vs. Hell
Knowledge vs. Ignorance
Mortals vs. The Planes
Demons vs. Devils
Magic vs. Physicality
Progress vs. Tradition

Those were the ones that immediately came to mind, if others can make their suggestions, we can pick a handful of favorites and then put them up for vote.

[DoomHat]

Why only two? Most of the best and most beloved gaming settings have something in the area of 4 to 10.
Legend of the Five Rings
Iron Kingdoms
Game of Thrones
Magic the Gathering
Everything ever published by White Wolf
Ect.

People are instinctively drawn to tribalism. The more varied the factions, the more likely someone out there will identify with one, and through it, get sucked into your game.

[Calliope121]

Very nice. I can think of a few more. I'm sorry for being unclear. By factions I meant more in the realms of general mentalities/professions/ideals than the actual stated factions
Rich vs poor
Technology vs magic
Educated vs un educated

[Arathnos]

I don't think the OPs intent is to have two exclusive factions and no other possibilites. Just that the central theme is based around the conflict between these two factions.

And yes, I was actually just suggesting the ideals as well. I don't really think of 'Hell' or 'Tradition' as factions, just the ideas that one might garner a faction around. :)

[The Witch-King]

Tyrannical dragonriders vs. freedom-loving dragonslayers

Surface world vs. underground world (it would be cool to see a world where the good guys were the ones who lived underground--maybe the good guys lost the war on the surface and everyone had to take refuge with the dwarves in underground strongholds)

Land vs. sea (again--it would be cool to see the good guys as the peaceful ocean dwellers and the bad guys as the intrusive surface-worlders come to plunder Atlantis (or whatever))

Reclaimationists vs. Colonists--some disaster has befallen the land and the refugees had to move to some where else--two factions form--one that's desperate to use what personnel and resources they have to reclaim their ancestral homeland and the other faction that's written off the old country and insists that the prudent and realistic thing to do is make a new life where they are no matter how inhospitable it is

Air vs. land--drawing from an old Star Trek episode--the conflict could be between rich, spoiled hedonistic cloud city dwellers and the enslaved miners and farmers forced to live on the barren surface and turn over the fruit of their labors to the cloud cities--the miners could retaliate by building flying pirate ships to take back the riches of the earth their people worked so hard to collect

Sun god worshippers vs. unbelievers--an Aztec-like cult is slaughtering thousands of innocent people to keep the sun god alive and strong so he can keep the world alive--the only thing is--it's true--the sun god needs those sacrifices to do his job--a small collective of unbelievers starts a massive effort to find another solution--providing an alternate means of survival for the sun god or supporting the worship of another god who doesn't need sacrifices to keep the world going and the Aztec cult wants to stop them--they wouldn't mind not having to kill all those people but the diminishing of the sun god's influence would erode their own power base...

[Othniel Edden]

Very nice. I can think of a few more. I'm sorry for being unclear. By factions I meant more in the realms of general mentalities/professions/ideals than the actual stated factions
Rich vs poor
Technology vs magic
Educated vs un educated

of those only one doesn't give a significant advantage to one side(not the middle one). What I think you want to do is to create two philosophies that oppose one another but that that would both appeal to players and NPCS on both sides of the divide. A good example of this in RL was Confucianism vs. Legalism. They didn't believe opposite things, but when legalism was in power it was intolerant of other philosophies and tried to have them removed, even if they didn't have directly opposing "doctrine". An era of strife caused by one side gaining power and suppressing the other could do wonders for this setting to gain tension.

[The Witch-King]

Educated vs. uneducated


of those only one doesn't give a significant advantage to one side(not the middle one).

What if primal might was naturally reduced by education? If magic and other forms of primal might were quirky and idiosyncratic and paradoxical and the educated faction was one of cold, hard, rationalist logic, then they might have a few powerful wizards backed by fighters and monks but among the uneducated sorcerers and druids were commonplace and backed by a huge horde of barbarians...

[Calliope121]

So far it seems like everyone has very good ideas. I will be compiling the options into the first post I made so you can see them all. If you want to vote for a specific one, please put your vote in bold so I can see it. Thanks!:smallsmile:
Well I was going to compile them, but my computer crashed halfway through. I will get it done soon...

[Othniel Edden]

What if primal might was naturally reduced by education? If magic and other forms of primal might were quirky and idiosyncratic and paradoxical and the educated faction was one of cold, hard, rationalist logic, then they might have a few powerful wizards backed by fighters and monks but among the uneducated sorcerers and druids were commonplace and backed by a huge horde of barbarians...

Thats much more to me law vs. chaos or civilization vs. nature. Druids obviously have an education, that is they pass along knowledge through teaching, such as their secret language. Any such idea however is going to be more complex than a simple entropy vs. creation dynamic, it has to be for an entire setting to be based on it.

[Strormer]

Alright, playing into the druids and barbarians versus more formally educated society, what about massive cities connected by magical skyways, I'm picturing massive monorails that are powered by working-class mages which drive them similar to coal-powered trains. These cities are centers of technology (in the eberron sense of technology), but drain the natural resources of the world they're built upon and, because they're held high in the air by platforms and whatnot, blot out the sunlight.
Below them we put an extremely verdant natural world. This should be incredibly jungle-like and dense with enormous and voracious fauna and even flora which tries, by its nature, to destroy the civilization and reclaim the sky.
Both sides should be home to large societies which are powerfully devoted to their homes. More natural classes, druid, barbarian, etc should favor nature of course, but there could even be some crossover. Perhaps one tribe of druids has moved into the skycities and they are working to meld nature with the cities by producing floating gardens, while a group of wizards have moved into an ancient center of study that lay in ruins in the deep jungle and now fight off the civilization that nearly destroyed such ancient knowledge merely for the sake of progress.
This would give each side a powerfully vested interest in seeing their cause championed because it's their own home they're fighting for while at the same time allowing reasons for any individual class to exist on either side. Commoners may cling to the cities for protection, or they might live in harmony with nature after the traditions of their ancestors and defy the cities. Neither side should have enough of a regimented government to fully oppress the other.
Finally, I would put some form of mcguffin that prevents any group from attempting to outright devastate their opposition through force. Perhaps destroying the cities would result in some horrible fallout for the world's ecosystem and the cities cannot sustain themselves without the verdant energy of the natural world that they draw upon for power.
Anyway, its an idea. ^_^

[Arathnos]

I like that Strormer. As far as a 'mcguffin' goes, it doesn't take a lot of creative stretching. For the cities to destroy nature, it would have very obvious repercussions. You can't just destroy nature completely and expect the world to remain in balance.

For the natural world to bring down the sky cities would have a whole slew of consequences, none of which would be beneficial. First of all, destroying the sky cities would involve bringing them down, but where would they go? Straight down, into the jungle. That would devastate the lands beneath the city and cause the deaths of far too many creatures in addition to the demolished plant life. If the wild faction didn't choose to exterminate all the residents of the sky city, it would also have to account for a large number of refugees throwing off the ecosystem of the forest.

My major concern with the setting is that the conflict doesn't really seem to be conflict... I understand that the two factions don't have to be violently opposed or complete opposites, but why should they care? Why do the druids and barbarians care about what goes on high above? Are the cities having that big of an effect on the natural world? I feel like they would have a greater footprint if they were just normal cities, clearing out the lush jungle to make way for stone walls. And why should the sky citizens care about the jungle? If they are content to sit in their floating homes, why are they at odds with the natural world. Why does their 'progress' hurt the jungle?

[Strormer]

My major concern with the setting is that the conflict doesn't really seem to be conflict... I understand that the two factions don't have to be violently opposed or complete opposites, but why should they care? Why do the druids and barbarians care about what goes on high above? Are the cities having that big of an effect on the natural world? I feel like they would have a greater footprint if they were just normal cities, clearing out the lush jungle to make way for stone walls. And why should the sky citizens care about the jungle? If they are content to sit in their floating homes, why are they at odds with the natural world. Why does their 'progress' hurt the jungle?

Well, the picture in my head was these massive city-plates on enormous pillars were A) blocking out the sun which plants, by nature, will always try to reach thus having plants automatically crawl up into the cities, and B) the cities are pulling natural energy out of the forest below, sorta like draining green mana in magic, to the point where the forest is fighting back.
As for the city dwellers caring, I would imagine the commoners would see it as a nusiance at worst, but the city leaders would know the truth, that the forest was fighting back, and could win. Think of the forest as more than just plants and bears, think of unbelievably powerful nature, like a primeval forest full of monsters on par with the tarrasque. (sp?)
But yeah, that's just what's in my head.

[Arathnos]

Cool cool, I enjoy it. I wasn't poking holes because I don't want to see it succeed, quite the opposite. Just making sure we had answers to those questions. :smallbiggrin:

[The Witch-King]

Perhaps the reason the sky cities were built is because they have massive solar mana collectors that magically pull in all the sunlight for miles around the city forcing the underdwellers to dwell in perpetual twilight.

[Calliope121]

Yay it looks like we have a theme!!! Now details!!!!

[Strormer]

Cool cool, I enjoy it. I wasn't poking holes because I don't want to see it succeed, quite the opposite. Just making sure we had answers to those questions. :smallbiggrin:

Oh I know, don't worry. I like holes, they help the story grow.

Also, now I'm thinking of a villain. We would want players in this world to be able to be from either side without pitting the party against itself, or at least I would, so how about a rouge asset? I'm picturing a council of elders that somewhat governs the cities and one of those elders could be a entropomancer in secret or something. Then, in a world where everyone is fighting over how things should continue to grow, the crazy guy who wants everything to end would make a good villain for PC's from either side.

[Calliope121]

It seems that we have come to a general consensus about the theme. Now we could use to determine what the actual factions are. Also as the cities cover the jungle, It might lead to greater amounts of drow and other underdark creatures. Just a thought.

[Icedaemon]

of those only one doesn't give a significant advantage to one side(not the middle one). What I think you want to do is to create two philosophies that oppose one another but that that would both appeal to players and NPCS on both sides of the divide. A good example of this in RL was Confucianism vs. Legalism. They didn't believe opposite things, but when legalism was in power it was intolerant of other philosophies and tried to have them removed, even if they didn't have directly opposing "doctrine". An era of strife caused by one side gaining power and suppressing the other could do wonders for this setting to gain tension.

There are far more uneducated (or, to be more precise, extremely forgetful people in regards to their education) in the world even today. In a medieval setting, the uneducated would have a massive numerical advantage.

[Strormer]

It seems that we have come to a general consensus about the theme. Now we could use to determine what the actual factions are. Also as the cities cover the jungle, It might lead to greater amounts of drow and other underdark creatures. Just a thought.

I like that. The jungle would provide massive beasts and druidic type enemies, but we could easily splice in underdark creatures living in the shadowed areas of jungle under the cities.

Also, as a point of interest, I think we might want to beef up the PC's abilities for this setting. The jungle could provide some incredible monsters, but if there are actually people living down there then I think those people would just be hardier by nature. Tough to say what would make that mechanics-wise, but just a thought anyway.

Incidentally, I've got a pretty good idea of the jungle and the life down there, but what about the life in the cities. Massive cities on plates held high aloft, sucking the life-energy out of the plane just to keep running, with modern marvels made possible through magic and ingenuity. It might be similar to Sharn's upper levels, but I would rather see something more unique. Any ideas?

[Recherché]

I don't like the idea of beefing up the wildside people. It seems like it would unbalance things a bit. To explain why they aren't massacred by the beasts, how about this instead.

The people of the wilds have a contract with the forests in which they dwell; in exchange for certain sacrifices and for observing certain taboo's relating to not destroying the forest, the titans of the forest do not notice them any more than they would any other creature. In contrast, skyworlder's without this protection are seen by the titans as threats that must be destroyed. The contract is ritually repeated for every child of the forest peoples on the first full moon after they are born. An outsider can also gain this protection by being adopted by a tribe and going through their ritual. Importantly, if anyone, forest born or adopted alike, violates the taboos and/or attempts to hurt the forest, the protection of the earth spirits would be quickly revoked.

[Arathnos]

I really like that Recherché. In fact, what if the jungle demands that it's inhabitants, all of them, beast or man, come to the defense of the natural world. The wilders HAVE to fight the intrusion of the skyworlders.

[Strormer]

I'm all for that. It sounds great.


I really like that Recherché. In fact, what if the jungle demands that it's inhabitants, all of them, beast or man, come to the defense of the natural world. The wilders HAVE to fight the intrusion of the skyworlders.

This could work because any forest-dwellers who decide to betray the forest are in special danger when they leave the cities.

[super dark33]

Yknow, its not always good and evil fighting.

i always thought of makeing two opposing LG factions fight each outer.
not all paladins agree with each outers opinions.

like: the Emerald order of the goddes Blabligla Vs. the Cohort of the Blood of Saint Tlktomchio.

diffrent thames? check.
diffrent religion or maybe even same religion? check.
diffrent colors? check.
diffrent hierarchy? check.

heck, maybe even the paladin's can smite the opposing faction's paladins and it WILL do extra damage!

[Othniel Edden]

Looking like LN vs. CN to me, or CN vs. LE. Please lets make the ubercity LN.

[super dark33]

Paladins fighting Paladins works good if your playing with mature RP'ers, as they would understand that its possible.

with young RP'rs and less-talk-more-khazablam players it might not work out as planned.

[Strormer]

If alignments MUST be involved, then I would see both sides as LN. The natural order vs civilization.

[hydroplatypus]

If we are accepting the idea of drow/underdark things in the shadow of the cities the we end up with a (smaller/less powerful) 3rd faction. These Drow would be mainly interested in maintaining the status quo. They like the cities, as they like the shade that is provided, but as they are still technically in the forest, they also have to maintain good relations with the nature people. As such they can't really support either side of the conflict. Would be interesting to have the Drow as a primarily neutral faction.

[Arathnos]

That would be really cool, especially once we delve into how the Drow got to this point, and how they have evolved into a neutral faction. Perhaps Drow, rather than being feared and hated, are actually greatly respected one both sides. While still cruel and twisted, their role as the mediators of the ever-escalating conflict between the cities and natures have earned them a high amount of praise as negotiators.

On that note: Have we decided then? Is Nature vs. Sky Cities our official theme?

[Strormer]

I can see the neutral drow as an interesting third party. I would tone down their cruelty, though, since they are not in a powerful position and they are more or less tolerated because the big guns have each other to point at. Perhaps the surface drow follow Vhaerun (male god of thieves and surface drow, still evil, but hates Lolth) and still don't have the presence that their subterranean cousins do.

Also, are we keeping the standard 3.5 rules for this setting or are we adding anything like new classes/races/features?

Incidentally, so far it would seem we have confirmed that the setting is massive, wild forest against enormous cities on pillars high in the sky and cutting off the light while sucking the life energy from the planet below with an underdark enclave on the surface beneath the cities acting as a neutral party.
Is this about right Calliope?
Faction 1: Powerful wilderness with beasts and other threats
Faction 2: Industrious cities with more technology at their disposal
Neutral: Drow enclaves under the cities, supporting the status quo

[hydroplatypus]

With respect to the factions, how unified are they?

Are the cities unified so as to defend against the forest, or are they each fighting primarily for their own survival? Will they help each other or are they too concerned with their own well being?

Like-ways, are the forces of nature actively organized (maybe druids behind this) or are they kind of attacking almost reflexively?

We end up with very different settings depending on whether they are unified or not.

[Calliope121]

Looks good to me. If you want to put the matter up to a vote, that works. As to the unification, Perhaps they are loosely unified?

[hydroplatypus]

Looks good to me. If you want to put the matter up to a vote, that works. As to the unification, Perhaps they are loosely unified?

I don't care one way or the other, as long as it is pinned down. From my own attempt at world design I know that a world with large numbers of city states is very different from a world with only a few significant nations. Once this is pinned down I can start coming up with more ideas or questions.

[Recherché]

Two things. First, I can't see the Friend as being a neutral third party without turning the evil levels way down. Otherwise they would likely make more trouble for the two main factions than they would solve by being mediators, and as such might be exterminated by either side. So instead of the standard Lolth worshipping embodiment of evil I see this world's dark elves as instead being the ultimate survivors. They existed for ages in the most hostile parts of the world, where food and water are scarce beyond belief and monsters roam.Comparatively the spaces beneath the sky cities are paradise. However they have not forgotten the lessons learned in the dark.

The clan must survive no matter what.
Protect the women, they are the source of the next generation; in contrast men are expendable
Never depend on the charity of others
cruelty in the name of survival is a virtue
The ends always justify the means.

However the Dark Elves are not sadists who inflict pain without reason. In truth they can be quite kind to both allies and strangers when it doesn't interfere with their own survival. Also importantly these traits are not inborn; they must be learned. Dark Elves raised among other races turn out to be fairly normal.

My other thought is that the Spirits of the forest and Druids probably do coordinate things somewhat, but they are not a unified army. The cities are likely the same way.

[Arathnos]

I agree with the above, that Drow need to be cruel out of necessity, not out of inherent sadism.

Also, in regards to faction unity, I picture something like this, let me know what you think:

The cities are fairly disjointed, unable to look past their own selfishness to help others. There is one city that is massive, far larger and more powerful in every way than the others. As such, it draws the most violent opposition from the natural world, and so has to commit its extensive resources to stay alive. Each of the other city-states petitions the largest for troops, aid, supplies, and feels let down. The large city provides what it can, but it has limited spare resources, so the other cities are constantly fighting a political battle to gain the favor of the large city and win support. This keeps them from ever unifying, as what few alliances form are short-lived and out of convenience only. Of course, if they ever were to come together, they would have several advantages and be much stronger, but that outcome is all but impossible.

Contrastingly, the natural world has a loose coalition. The people and creatures of the forests are more nomadic, less likely to call any one patch of land home. Because of this, they give support in whatever way they can, to whichever dark one they are closest to at any time. Dark zones share supplies and support each other when necessary because the preservation of the natural world is the first priority, but they lack any form of official hierarchy or government.

Stronger, smarter creatures are respected, as are druids. They're wisdom is trusted by all, but they rarely 'command' in anything other than battle.

[Strormer]

This is great guys. I agree with the Drow needing to be toned down in the evil department. I see them as always seeking the greatest personal advantage in all situations. Survivors would work great. I also think that these dark elves should leave Lolth behind. I loved how Eberron re-themed the dark elves and I'd love to do something like that here.

Incidentally, I would like to offer a suggestion for the integrity of the natural world's opposition. I agree that the Druids and other important, sentient figures should have reasonable respect if not control, but what about allowing the forest itself to have a loose control? Those familiar with Magic the Gathering will remember Multani and Yavimaya. Why not something similar. The forest resists of its own accord and otherwise non-sentient creatures might band together in its defense because of some collective will that is more ethereal than quantitative. Just an idea.

I would also like to see specific stations in the cities, such as governors, lords, etc. Not neccessarily respecting each other's claim to power, but allowing enough to reinforce their own station. It creates a bit of an intimidation factor that should keep the folk below from outright warfare when some of them feel pushed too far. That would create a lot of gurrila tactics which I would love to see rp'ed. Players would eat that up.

[hydroplatypus]

The cities are fairly disjointed, unable to look past their own selfishness to help others. There is one city that is massive, far larger and more powerful in every way than the others. As such, it draws the most violent opposition from the natural world, and so has to commit its extensive resources to stay alive. Each of the other city-states petitions the largest for troops, aid, supplies, and feels let down. The large city provides what it can, but it has limited spare resources, so the other cities are constantly fighting a political battle to gain the favor of the large city and win support. This keeps them from ever unifying, as what few alliances form are short-lived and out of convenience only. Of course, if they ever were to come together, they would have several advantages and be much stronger, but that outcome is all but impossible.

I like this idea, and the nature idea too. How about we start deciding what military resources the central city actually has. Given that it is the largest city it should have an academy that trains arcane casters. I am thinking that due to the fighting there is little time for learning the academic stuff about magic, and the academy would be combat focused. This would lead to the academy training large numbers of Warmages to help in the war, while leading to few actual wizards. Additionally the Academy also produces magic items for the city's elite (higher level) military divisions. The amount of magic in the largest city explains how it got to be the most powerful.

In addition to the Academy the city maintains traditional (fighter and warrior) military forces, additionally requiring everyone fit for service to train in the militia and/or serve in the military for 1 or 2 years, in order to ensure that it actually has the manpower to survive.

The city also maintains siege weapons around its perimeter (Batista, catapults) so that they have these to defend against attack.


In addition to military forces we also need to consider how the cities get resources and transportation. Being up in the air resources would be hard to obtain, and with nature attacking transportation would be difficult. My proposal for both is that the pillar that holds up the city also extends deep into the earth. From there tunnels go to metalic ores, and to the other cities. Additionally these tunnels occasionally extend to the surface, in order to harvest wood. Really fast transportation would be handled by teleport. Athough this can't really transport armies it can allow the transport of diplomats (or they could just use divination for negotiations) or for the transport of powerful military assets (read PCs [also high level NPCs]) who have a chance of turning the tide of a battle.

Food is still a problem for these cities. Being up in the air they either have to suspend farmland above the forest as well, or they have to go down and farm land somehow. I really have no sensible solutions to the food/water issues, but wanted to bring it up.

[Strormer]

In addition to military forces we also need to consider how the cities get resources and transportation. Being up in the air resources would be hard to obtain, and with nature attacking transportation would be difficult. My proposal for both is that the pillar that holds up the city also extends deep into the earth. From there tunnels go to metalic ores, and to the other cities. Additionally these tunnels occasionally extend to the surface, in order to harvest wood. Really fast transportation would be handled by teleport. Athough this can't really transport armies it can allow the transport of diplomats (or they could just use divination for negotiations) or for the transport of powerful military assets (read PCs [also high level NPCs]) who have a chance of turning the tide of a battle.

Well, remember that the cities are drawing natural energy from the ground too, if we're sticking with that, so they conceivably already have the ability to access underground resources. This could also give our neutral Drow a leg up because the cities would need them. We just need the Drow to offer something that the jungle could use and boom, indespensable. Also, I still wanna use the gigantic, mage-powered monorails connecting the cities. I think that the cities would want to make it so that the average citizen never goes down to the jungle below.


Food is still a problem for these cities. Being up in the air they either have to suspend farmland above the forest as well, or they have to go down and farm land somehow. I really have no sensible solutions to the food/water issues, but wanted to bring it up.

What about a hanging gardens type thing. Hydroponics and the like would make food production more stable, water collection and treatment could either be through the mana draining effect or through rain collection as a jungle the size we've been talking about would need extensive rainfall to support it. I can even see some Druids that are sided with the cities by living up there and tending to the gardens and trying to lessen the impact of civilization on the jungle. Sorta the "can't we all just work together" hippie druid. :smallbiggrin:

[Othniel Edden]

What we really have here is Faction 1 vs. Faction 2, with each "side" having "independents". Each independent lives one of the sides territories, but they aren't involved the opposition directly. I could imagine the Wild side having weapon smiths that pray to the earth and shape weapons out of different backs. Groves of Ironwood are planted by such smiths and are shaped by their prayers into the Great Swords and Axes need to operate against the city dwellers. Iron Clan Dwarves even shape the trees into dwellings, and live in the largest iron wood, and they give them the strength of steel by tempering them with the spirits of fire, smoke and metal.

[Strormer]

Alright, so let's talk gaming then. We have a world. What sorts of classes would populate it.
In context I would think that the world is sliding into high magic slightly, but not completely. We also have a vast array of monsters that can show up. Anything magically created could be a perfect monster inside or sent from one of the cities and any magical beast or fey is perfect for the forest below. I'm picturing the forest with great behemoths and terrifying predators. Perhaps using Jurassic Park as an influence, though I'd shy away from actually using dinosaurs. Sorta gives the wrong feel for this kind of game. More sci-fi and we could though. Are we going high fantasy, gothic, arcadian, what do you guys think?

[Othniel Edden]

Gothic mixed with Sword and the Planet is my vote.

[hydroplatypus]

Monsters that should appear (IMHO):
In Cities:Golems, because the city mages build them for the war. Shield guardian, same reason, Basically any type of construct. Elementals, summonned by the city mages. Animated objects.

In forests:
The tarrasque, cause it's awesome. Dire animals of course. Wyverns. winter wolf and worg for obvious reasons. Mabye trolls. treants. swarms. Fey creatures. Rust monsters, because they're appropriate. Roc. owlbear. anything with plant type.

Off the top of my head these are the monsters in MM1 that I think would primarily align with one side or the other.

On the classes that occupy the world we should start with saying that most of the PHB classes are there. Monk is the only one that seems to clash with the setting, but can be made to fit with a little work. From PHB 2 all of the classes introduced there fit. Swashbuckler doesn't really fit too well IMHO as the wilds generally kill people with that much arrogance, and the cities don't really leave room for much swashbuckling. Warmage and Warlock work, Wu Jen not as much. Don't own too many books so those are the only base that I know well enough to actually say much on.

On prestige classes:
Can't think of any that wouldn't exist, but (out of DMG prestige classes) Archmage would likely be relatively common, as someone has to be responsible for the magic these cities have. Other than that I think that most prestige classes would exist, but be extraordinarily rare.

[Machinekng]

This whole thing reminds me of my own Aestuava campaign setting, in several ways.

My primary two factions were the Tiberan empire, a Lawful nation that is based off imperial rome, the pre-civil war deep south, and medival Christendom, and the Chaotic jungle tribes, which were based off various groups including the goths, the vikings, and native americans of all sorts.

Neither side is good or evil, per-say. The empire is ruled by a lawful good god-emperor, and has a well-developed system of justice and a good standard of living, but slavery and corruption are rampant. The jungle tribes are free-spirited, and are generally peaceful, but are disorganized and somewhat lawless.

Both fations interact regulary. Even though the empire views the jungle dwellers as unwashed savages, and the tribes view the empire as tyrannical, trade occurs due to a market for exotic products. The tribes desire imperial cotton and salt, while the empire lusts for the tribes' silver and brewing, leading to the creation of a love-hate relationship.

The enviorment is also similar. Aestuava is a bastardization of the latin word for summer, and accordingly, the planet is in what essentially is an eternal summer. Although the polar regions are still affected by winter, most of the world is covered in jungle, save the regions which the empire has cleared.

In addition to primary factions, there are several factions that soley serve as antagonists for both factions.

Just noting a few parallels. I don't really have anything to add, but I'll be watching this thread.

[Strormer]

I would like to see a few original monsters for the setting. I feel pretty heavily influenced by Magic the Gathering for this one myself. I'm looking into the Alara setting for some inspiration. Specifically there is a demi-plane called Naya from the Shards of Alara expansion which has been cut off from black (necrotic) and blue (magic/manipulative) mana, leaving an explosively lush world. In magic terminology, the jungle is green/red/white while the cities would be blue/white.
In these terms then, the wild and uncontrolled world would provide for more feral, natural species for players to choose from. I'd like to see a lot of Elves, Catfolk, Centaurs, maybe some other Fey. On the contrary, I'd see the cities housing Dwarves, though I do love the ironwood glade idea from earlier a LOT, Halflings, maybe Warforged. The humans and half-races I'd put in between because their connections to both sides are important. Races of the wild is the supplement I've been diving for this whole time, but I admit to despising LA on races. Stripping down some wild or fey races to be LA0 would be nice. I've already done it for my own setting, but they don't entirely fit this world, so we would need to play with them.
Let's see if we can compile a list of races that would fit the setting, and let's be creative. I'd love to see a deviation from PHB stuff here. Why not, any individual DM already has that stuff. Settings should bring something new.
I throw out (not counting PHB races):
Catfolk (RotW)
Centaurs (MM1)
Killoreen (RotW)
Warforged (ECS)
Merfolk (MM1, but more for a forest-swamp type area, swimming in the roots of giant trees)

Calliope, once we have a good sized list, we could put it up for a vote of races to add just to this setting. We can always type up a good mod for the PHB races later, just for fluff.

[Calliope121]

Putting it up to a vote sounds good to me.

Catfolk (RotW)
Centaurs (MM1)
Killoreen (RotW)
Warforged (ECS)
Merfolk (MM1)
Awakened Monkeys 3
Kuo Toa
Awakened skeletons

[Strormer]

C'mon guys, does no one have any other races they'd like to see?

[erictheredd]

If you really want my opinion---

a druid went a little crazy and started casting "awaken" on monkeys. He got enough that they started breeding, and making more awakened monkeys. Now these monkeys are intelligent and have their own society, as well as blending into the societies of others. While come from the jungle, many have ended up living in city, and are sophisticated as any other dweller, where they get jobs that involve small spaces or great heights.


talking monkeys. I would totally play one.

[hydroplatypus]

vote for awakened monkeys :smalltongue:

[Guest#1]

vote for awaken monkey...my friend once made a half-dragon awakened monkey wizard with a platypus familiar

[Strormer]

I like the monkeys! ^_^ Planet of the apes was one of my favorite films.

[Lady Serpentine]

All of those sound good. How about Kuo-Toa? I'm seeing them as living in these massive hollowed out trees that are set up to catch and hold rainwater, but that's hardly the only way for them to work.

Edit: Rakshasa seem like they might be workable, too. It is a jungle after all, and if we have people with talking monkeys, then why not mage-tigers?

[Strormer]

Rakshasas could certainly be out there, but I wouldn't list them as a player race. Their level adjustment is obnoxious. That's why I put in Catfolk. I don't know too much about Kuo Toa.

Also, for the monkey people, I came up with this...

+2 Int, -2 Cha: Although they are highly inquisitive and clever, these beings are not as refined as most other races.

Medium Size

Speed: 40ft.

Brachiation: Can move through trees at normal move speed and ignores difficult terrain in wooded areas.

Naturally Agile: +2 Balance, Jump, Swim, Climb, and Tumble

Low-Light Vision

Languages; Automatic: Common and Sylvan, Bonus: Terran, Auran, Aquan, Elven, Gnome, Giant, and Yuan Ti.

Favored Class: Druid

[Lady Serpentine]

Kuo-Toa are fish-people, basically. They'd probably take some resskinning to work, but I think it would be worth it.

The monkeys look cool. It should be interesting to see how this works out in the end.

[Strormer]

Lots of options are out there now. Does anyone have anything they absolutely do not want to see as a player race?

[erictheredd]

medium? the monkeys are medium? I did not expect this. I was expecting at least small, perhaps tiny, with a large str penalty and a decent dexterity bonus, as given in the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monkey.htm) . you know, not monkey people: awakened monkeys



-8 str +4 dex : monkeys are very weak, but they are also surprisingly agile

speed 30ft climb 30ft

monkeys gain a racial +10 to all climb and balance checks

tiny size



or for larger monkeys (like baboons)



-4 str +2 dex

speed 30ft, climb 30ft

+10 racial bonus to all climb and balance checks




I think their decently balanced, though I know that the str penalties scream "dump stat". still, they should be fairly entertaining to play. of course, I don't know how to really break the game. tell me whats abusable.

and yes, I know we'll never see a monkey fighter. though we'd see plenty of rouges, druids, and wizards.

[Strormer]

medium? the monkeys are medium? I did not expect this. I was expecting at least small, perhaps tiny, with a large str penalty and a decent dexterity bonus, as given in the srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monkey.htm) . you know, not monkey people: awakened monkeys



-8 str +4 dex : monkeys are very weak, but they are also surprisingly agile

speed 30ft climb 30ft

monkeys gain a racial +10 to all climb and balance checks

tiny size



or for larger monkeys (like baboons)



-4 str +2 dex

speed 30ft, climb 30ft

+10 racial bonus to all climb and balance checks




I think their decently balanced, though I know that the str penalties scream "dump stat". still, they should be fairly entertaining to play. of course, I don't know how to really break the game. tell me whats abusable.

and yes, I know we'll never see a monkey fighter. though we'd see plenty of rouges, druids, and wizards.

Well, the reasoning I used was that anything that isn't small, medium, or large falls out of player-use. Also, the bonuses are way over the top. A +/-4 is already pushing the limits of what a PC race should have, but anything above it becomes unplayable. PC races should always have universal balance in mind to be truly useful. No race should overtly favor any one class over the others because otherwise all of that race will be that class. For example, when I was making my PC fey for my homebrew I had to avoid the temptation to make them incredible druids and bards because they needed to be a race for any class. The Favored Class ability should cover that. Also, the special move should not equal the normal move. Either they favor walking or they favor climbing. No species is equally talented at multiple movements. Take Penguins as a perfect example for that. Still, I see what you're trying to show. Let me toy with it. Maybe I'll watch Rise of the Plant of the Apes this weekend...

[Recherché]

-puts on primatologist (primatology student to be exact)-

In real life monkeys are quite strong for they're size so a strength penalty seems inappropriate to me. One of the interesting things about monkey psychology is that they are tremendously good at understanding and negotiating social relationships but not so great at understanding things logically. As one of my teachers put it "[monkeys] would make great anthropologists, and horrible physicists" To me that translates to a Wis or Cha bonus and an Int penalty, but YMMV.
Anyways a strength penalty seems.completely inappropriate for creatures that are stronger than humans pound for pound. Likewise a Dex bonus seems little off; while monkeys may seem very coordinated, they're actually not all that amazing. Human pedal walking requires.just as great or greater balance. Part of why monkeys look so dexterous to us is that they're literally built for hampering around trees and as such have some different joint adjustments than humans, however these same joint differences make it near impossible for.monkeys to perform certain tasks that humans take for granted, such as throwing accurately. No non-human primate can play baseball, simply because they're shoulders aren't built for it.

Whew
-takes off primatologist hat and campers back to corner-

[Strormer]

-puts on primatologist (primatology student to be exact)-

In real life monkeys are quite strong for they're size so a strength penalty seems inappropriate to me. One of the interesting things about monkey psychology is that they are tremendously good at understanding and negotiating social relationships but not so great at understanding things logically. As one of my teachers put it "[monkeys] would make great anthropologists, and horrible physicists" To me that translates to a Wis or Cha bonus and an Int penalty, but YMMV.
Anyways a strength penalty seems.completely inappropriate for creatures that are stronger than humans pound for pound. Likewise a Dex bonus seems little off; while monkeys may seem very coordinated, they're actually not all that amazing. Human pedal walking requires.just as great or greater balance. Part of why monkeys look so dexterous to us is that they're literally built for hampering around trees and as such have some different joint adjustments than humans, however these same joint differences make it near impossible for.monkeys to perform certain tasks that humans take for granted, such as throwing accurately. No non-human primate can play baseball, simply because they're shoulders aren't built for it.

Whew
-takes off primatologist hat and campers back to corner-

^_^ Capital, another scholar.
<--- Archaeology

How about this then...

+2 Wis, -2 Int:

Small Size

Speed: 30ft.

Brachiation: Can move through trees at normal move speed and ignores difficult terrain in wooded areas.

Naturally Agile: +2 Balance, Jump, Swim, Climb, and Tumble

Low-Light Vision

Languages; Automatic: Common and Sylvan, Bonus: Terran, Auran, Aquan, Elven, Gnome, Giant, and Yuan Ti.

Favored Class: Druid

I kept the Naturally Agile ability since the default skill checks are based on Humans/Humanoids.

[Recherché]

-doffs hat in Strormer's direction-
That looks much accurate and awesome to me. Plus imagine the fun in sending the players to meet with a high level Droid, and they find a monkey sitting in a nest of leaves in the canopy eating fermented fruit. (Fun fact, new world monkeys are the only creature besides humans who intentionally get drunk. To do this they pick ripe fruit, cache it in a safe place, wait for it to ferment, and then once its properly alcoholic eat eat it till they're so drunk they can't properly brachiate.)

[hydroplatypus]

I have another idea for a race. (don't have many books so if similar race already exists tell me).

Awakened Skeletons

(if an awakenundead spell already exists use it instead). Basically the idea is that in one of the cities they are running low on soldiers, and need to get more, so they start animating skeletons. Once out of immediate peril the city still has (non-sentient) skeletons at its disposal. They then start sending them on dangerous missions as they are expendable. That being said these undead need leaders in order to preform these missions well, so the city decides to create an awaken undead spell to allow them to create commanders for their undead warriors. As they are sentient the city realized that it needed a way to ensure they wouldn't have an undead uprising on their hands so they tell these skeletons that after a 2 (?) years of service they are free to do as they wish.
Stats

+2 dex, -2 charisma, -2 int

Medium or small (player choice)

+1 Natural armor if small, +2 if medium

1d3 claw attack if small, 1d4 if medium

automatically gains improved initiative feat

DR 5/bludgening

LA: (+0? +1? , not really sure)

Favored class: fighter

if anyone thinks any changes are necessary to these stats please suggest them


Edited for mistakes

[erictheredd]

On LA, lets see---

undead: immune to a whole ton of things (no constitution though)

DR: DR 5/bludgening

+2 natural armor

Thats.... pretty good

[hydroplatypus]

On LA, lets see---

undead: immune to a whole ton of things (no constitution though)

DR: DR 5/bludgening

+2 natural armor

Thats.... pretty good

Probably true, what number would you suggest? +1? +2? higher?

[Strormer]

Yeah, there is an Awaken Undead spell in Libris Mortis.

Also, I'm not sure about these guys. Undead don't really feel right and are also kinda strong because of all their traits outside the PC bar. That's why I suggested the warforged. They fit the setting because that would be more socially acceptable and still retain the warriors for squishy city mages thing.

What do you guys think?

[Recherché]

I second the warfare instead of undead idea. While the unread are fine, they're a bit hard to balance and warforged fit my image of high magitech a lot better. Besides in a location as circumscribed as the cities, I would think recycling corpses into fertilizer for the hydroponics would be a better use of the nutrients.
On a completely different note, what do we want to do with gods? We have nature spirits for the forest dwellers. I'm thinking that the forest spirits are very numerous and can be found under every rock and inside every tree. Individualy they're not too powerful but if they cooperate they be very powerful. For the city dwellers I don't think traditional gods would fit well. I could see them as atheists, ancestor worshippers, or to steal a page from "Errant Story" constructing their own artificial puppet god. The drow, I have no ideas for other than not Lolth

[Recherché]

Sorry double post, I blame the internet gods.

[Strormer]

On a completely different note, what do we want to do with gods? We have nature spirits for the forest dwellers. I'm thinking that the forest spirits are very numerous and can be found under every rock and inside every tree. Individualy they're not too powerful but if they cooperate they be very powerful. For the city dwellers I don't think traditional gods would fit well. I could see them as atheists, ancestor worshippers, or to steal a page from "Errant Story" constructing their own artificial puppet god. The drow, I have no ideas for other than not Lolth

Well, what I was thinking was similar to what you said for the nature side. The gods I pictured were like Kami in Shinto. There is a divine spirit for almost everything, some weaker than humans, some Zeus-like. The city side I actually thought of as worshiping xeno-deities. Something like, they gain power and whatnot, so that there can still be clerics and the like, but their gods are not native to the plane. This would allow for things ranging from intruder gods that seem normal, by DND standards, all the way to Cthulhu cult type stuff... hastur hastur ha.....:smallbiggrin:

[hydroplatypus]

For the city dwellers I don't think traditional gods would fit well. I could see them as atheists, ancestor worshippers, or to steal a page from "Errant Story" constructing their own artificial puppet god.

Given that clerics are allowed, I don't think that atheists would really exist, as divine intervention is common. Now they might hate/dislike the gods/spirits/whatever, but it seems quite illogical to not believe at all. Ancestor worship, perhaps some of the city dwellers ascended to godhood, so the more powerful ancestors actually are gods. That being said if we are going with the many weak nature spirit thing then regular ancestor worship actually works really well, as it also provides large numbers of weak entities. Puppet god, perhaps he began as a puppet, but the people's belief made him real... having him still be a puppet wouldn't work in my opinion.

[Strormer]

having him still be a puppet wouldn't work in my opinion.

Banjo will smite thee, nonbeliever! Feel the puppety wrath of puppet-pantheon!

[Adam Meyers]

I think you could answer the question of the gods by answering the question of history, or how did a world like this come to be.

Looking at the design, I figure either something (like a god) taught mankind how to build cities and gave them the sky, or something (like a god) increased the power of the forests, forcing the city-dwellers to build sky-cities to escape destruction. With that in mind, I think that having the sky-dwellers worship traditional-style gods, while the jungle dwellers worship primal spirits, seems not only natural, but in-tune with the style of the world.

Plus I figure it would take so many years to design and build sky-cities that something must have been different before/someone must have helped them do it.

History examples off the top of my head:

1. An Outsider god taught man magic and gave them civilization. This was so foreign to the Primal way the world worked, and it lead to conflict between the spirits and the followers of the Outsider. These conflicts drove the Outsider's followers across the sea, over the mountains and into the sky. The Outsider burned back the forests, giving the sky-dwellers the time to construct their cities, and now the jungle is trying to repair the damage and swallow the intruding pillars that have been built in its place.

2. One group of powerful spirits taught civilization to man. The worship they got in return increased their power, and this brought them and their followers out of harmony with the rest of the world. These spirits left the forest and now live in the sky, and had their followers build sky-cities to get closer to them and away from the earth. The actual conflict between Forest and Sky is a result of the Patron spirits of each group being in conflict.

3. The sky dwellers migrated from across the ocean, and tried to conquer the land. The land fought back, and kept swallowing their structures. Eventually, tiring of the constant combat but not wanting to leave, they burned holes in the forest and constructed their cities before the jungle could grow back. They worship the gods of their ancestors from the other side of the ocean, while the Primal dwellers worship the jungle spirits.

4. The jungle's growth is new, either from misused magic or divine forces. A once thriving grassland civilization was forced to flee from the advancing jungles, and eventually pillared cities were their only escape. Now they must contract with the jungle and the jungle tribes so they can visit the ground and their ancient structures, retrieving the treasures and knowledge that were lost in the exodus.

That last one's my favorite, it explains why adventurers are needed and why ruins are rampant for the plundering. Makes it feel kind of like Dark Sun, but instead of the world turning desert, it turned jungle.

[hydroplatypus]

@adam meyers

3 makes the most sense, 4 is the most fun and probably the best for the setting. As much as I want the setting to make the most logical sense possible fun is more important, so I say we go with #4.

[Recherché]

For a variation on #4:
The jungle is the planet's immune response to the wounds inflicted upon it by powerful mages. Long ago they accidentally wounded the greatest of the earth spirits during an experiment, and the spirit reacted. The Living Earth as it is called is a powerful spirit but it only has a basic animal like intelligence. So it reacted to the injury inflicted on it by attempting to destroy those who caused it. The once diverse biomes began to all turn to jungle and eldritch monsters were born . The monsters stalked the lands killing all sentients in their path. Most of the population died. However a few mages were able to escape by retreating to the sky, and some commoner still remembered the old spirits well enough to ask for their aid ...


To be continued when I've had more sleep and/or caffeine

[Strormer]

At least for my part, I don't like the jungle being relatively new. I was picturing a plane where nature is simply wild and powerful as the status quo and after building cities in the jungle that needed constant defending and rebuilding leaders became sick of it and worked powerful magic/artiface with mages to create the sky cities so as to defend themselves and live lives away from the survival of the fittest order of the jungle.

I do also really like the third option you gave, though that does also bring up a question I had refrained from asking. How is the world shaped. Is it one big continent, multiple continents? Flat? Round? Are there massive oceans? Underground? So far we've only described one continent, but there could easily be an massive world where other continents don't have the problems that this one has. Maybe it's like Alara. All the verdant, natural energy is here and the other continents are missing that, but have an abundance of other energy types. That could also create an interesting reason for the cities. Maybe outsiders are collecting the jungle's energy not only for their own use, but to try and export across the ocean.

I dunno... ideas...

[Guest#1]

I have another idea for a race. (don't have many books so if similar race already exists tell me).

Awakened Skeletons

(if an awakenundead spell already exists use it instead). Basically the idea is that in one of the cities they are running low on soldiers, and need to get more, so they start animating skeletons. Once out of immediate peril the city still has (non-sentient) skeletons at its disposal. They then start sending them on dangerous missions as they are expendable. That being said these undead need leaders in order to preform these missions well, so the city decides to create an awaken undead spell to allow them to create commanders for their undead warriors. As they are sentient the city realized that it needed a way to ensure they wouldn't have an undead uprising on their hands so they tell these skeletons that after a 2 (?) years of service they are free to do as they wish.
Stats

+2 dex, -2 charisma, -2 int

Medium or small (player choice)

+1 Natural armor if small, +2 if medium

1d3 claw attack if small, 1d4 if large

automatically gains improved initiative feat

DR 5/bludgening

LA: (+0? +1? , not really sure)

Favored class: fighter

if anyone thinks any changes are necessary to these stats please suggest them


seems cool...a couple of things though. awaken undead is already a spell, so no-one has to make it. I would maybe add one more ability, and then it would be reasonablee to put it as LA1, as right now it seems a teensy bit OP for a LA0 race, but would be mildly underpowered as a LA! race. thirdly, just to keep others from being confused, when talking about claw damage, you used the word large instead of medium...if you did mean large, then never mind...PoltreGuest, AWAY!!! (to clarify, this is like a charge call, not a priest using a cross or something to keep PoltreGuest away)

[hydroplatypus]

seems cool...a couple of things though. awaken undead is already a spell, so no-one has to make it. I would maybe add one more ability, and then it would be reasonablee to put it as LA1, as right now it seems a teensy bit OP for a LA0 race, but would be mildly underpowered as a LA! race. thirdly, just to keep others from being confused, when talking about claw damage, you used the word large instead of medium...if you did mean large, then never mind...PoltreGuest, AWAY!!! (to clarify, this is like a charge call, not a priest using a cross or something to keep PoltreGuest away)

Lack of actual D&D books prevented me from knowing if the spell existed already. By all means use this instead of homebrew, much simpler. On adding abilities, I'm not actually good at homebrew and as such basically just made 1 or 2 minor changes to the skeleton from monster manual 1. If anyone feels it is lacking/too powerful or whatever feel free to post what you think the stats etc. should be. On size: ya I meant medium, will edit that.

[Strormer]

Calliope, what do you say? Shall we make a core update now that we have a few major decisions?