So I'm thinking of trying to be a DM

[Crescent Crux]

I've been playing as a player mostly, And I understand most of the rules but I need some help with some. I'll mostly be using the 3.5E rules.

1) How do I connect CR to player?
i understand the idea of CR is be a difficulty, but compared to lets say a group of one, three and five? how would a CR differ?

2) Magic:
I understand magic requires all kinds of components such as somatic and items, but what I do not understand is how this effects say a Wizard vs a Sorcerer. Or is there any difference other then prepared vs spontaneous.

3) How do you Start a world? I can make all kinds of things for the world at scratch, and I plan to start with some preset campaigns to ease myself in, but I do want to try and make My world too.

Sorry if I'm fairly newbish in asking such, but Getting my head around something takes a little :smalleek:.

Thanks for the help!

[sonofzeal]

1) CR should just be a rule of thumb anyway, a place to start looking. If your PCs are lvl 10, then look at CR 8-11 monsters, or a horde of CR 6-7 ones, and work by feel from there. No formula for adaptation is going to work here, since the CR system is fuzzy enough as it is.

2) PC casters should have a spell component pouch, and if so they're fine. No difference between Spont and Prepped in any case.

3) Start local, develop global. Don't have a complete gameworld at the first session, have a few broad stroke that you'll flesh out as you go. Plan for the session after next, but don't bother much farther than that because PCs are stupid and always do unexpected things.

[WolfieDM]

I've been playing as a player mostly, and I understand all of the rules so I've decided to start DM'ing, this Wednesday will be my first session.

1) How do I connect CR to player?
A group of 3-4 is what is expected of a group, so you would use a CR equivalent to their party level. But say a group of 5-6 you would probably need to +2 the CR for it to be an effective battle and give a decent amount of XP. A group of 1-2 would be -2 CR. 7-8 +4. And so on. -thanks SonofZeal for the correction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11444773&postcount=9)
2) Magic:
Material components mean the character requires a small amount of something or other (or possible an extremely expensive gem) to cast a spell with a material component and it is used up upon casting. The Eschew Material Feat bypasses this.
A Wizard prepares his spells from his spellbook which holds up to a hundred pages of spells, while a wizard knows fewer spells but can cast them at will, up to his daily limit. Sorcerers are the better enemies because you don't have to decide what they prepared that day, plus they can cast more.

3) How do you Start a world? I can make all kinds of things for the world at scratch, and I plan to start with some preset campaigns to ease myself in, but I do want to try and make My world too.

This is where I'm lost, making it YOUR world is up to you, say, adding a hobgoblin fortress in the middle of the woods, or declaring that a certain city is controlled by several guilds (Mages' Guild, Thieves' Guild, Fighters' Guild)
But to make the world truly your own, add a boss who is built the exact same way a PC is, by giving him feats and such for levels, kind of like he's YOUR character.

I'm using a self made campaign so I have to prepare my maps and encounters in a grid paper notebook that I keep in a locked drawer.

Hope this helped!

[Pigkappa]

But say a group of 5-6 you would probably need to double the CR for it to be an effective battle and give a decent amount of XP. A group of 1-2 would be half CR. 7-8 triple. And so on.


What? You would send a Bhalor versus 7 level 7 characters! :smallconfused:

Don't listen to him. If you have more than 4-5 players, add a few monsters of the same type you're already using. Don't double the CR or anything like that.



If you're totally new to DMing, you shouldn't do everything by yourself. There are lots of short and long pre-made adventures; use them (editing them to fit your world and your preferences). Look at http://www.dungeonmastering.com/campaigns-adventures/83-free-dd-adventures for some short adventures, and consider http://www.amazon.com/Expedition-Ravenloft-Dungeons-Roleplaying-Supplement/dp/078693946X as a long and beatiful adventure (you shouldn't start with that however, this is just a tip for the future).

[WolfieDM]

I'm talking about the Encounter CR. I have a larger party so instead of 2 orcs for a CR 1, I have 3 for a CR 2 Encounter.

And by the boss, an Ogre and a few Orcs, they'll be level 2 so I have a CR 5 Encounter.

[Hiro Protagonest]

1) How do I connect CR to player?
A group of 3-4 is what is expected of a group, so you would use a CR equivalent to their party level. But say a group of 5-6 you would probably need to double the CR for it to be an effective battle and give a decent amount of XP. A group of 1-2 would be half CR. 7-8 triple. And so on.

Wait, what? So a group of 3-4 13th level adventurers should face a beholder, 1-2 should face a chimera, and 5-6 should face a great wyrm red dragon?

[WolfieDM]

Wait, what? So a group of 3-4 13th level adventurers should face a beholder, 1-2 should face a chimera, and 5-6 should face a great wyrm red dragon?

Hmm... thanks for pointing that out... I guess my equation only works for the first few levels... Better to learn it now than have my party learn it at level 6 or so.

[Crescent Crux]

I do have some pre-made campaigns to start; three in total, so I'll start there and get myself into it. Thanks for the easy to read info, and slight discussion, I think I know the basics of the issues I had.

Thanks all for the tips so far!

[sonofzeal]

1) How do I connect CR to player?
A group of 3-4 is what is expected of a group, so you would use a CR equivalent to their party level. But say a group of 5-6 you would probably need to double the CR for it to be an effective battle and give a decent amount of XP. A group of 1-2 would be half CR. 7-8 triple. And so on.
SWEET MERCIFUL PELOR NO!!!!!!!



Crescent Crux, do not under any circumstances follow that advice. The rule of thumb is -2/+2. Two lvl 10's should be handling a CR 8 threat, and eight should be handling a CR 12 threat. It's a really bad rule of thumb because action economy is so huge, and because bigger monsters often have special defences that lower level PCs simply can't overcome, or attacks that can demolish them too easily. But -2/+2 is far more accurate than ÷2/x2.

Best, however, is increasing the number of monsters.

[WolfieDM]

SWEET MERCIFUL PELOR NO!!!!!!!



Crescent Crux, do not under any circumstances follow that advice. The rule of thumb is -2/+2. Two lvl 10's should be handling a CR 8 threat, and eight should be handling a CR 12 threat. It's a really bad rule of thumb because action economy is so huge, and because bigger monsters often have special defences that lower level PCs simply can't overcome, or attacks that can demolish them too easily. But -2/+2 is far more accurate than ÷2/x2.

Best, however, is increasing the number of monsters.

Okay thank you, that's why my thing seemed to work so well, because I was really +1 and +2 not x2 okay I'll make sure to use that instead of my current equation and I'll alter my post and credit you.

[GoatBoy]

Doubling the number of creatures in an encounter actually increases the CR by two, which is roughly appropriate for an overly large group.

So, double the number of creatures, not the actual CR.

You really have to run a few encounters to get a feel for what your group can handle, so take it easy on them at first and gradually ramp up the CR relative to the player level until you reach a comfortable ratio.

[kharmakazy]

Am I the only DM who just makes up almost the entirety of enemies on the fly?
The players encounter a whosit... they fight it. I assign an AC based on how tough I perceive the thing to be to hit.

The rest of the stats are nonexistant. The players never know any of the rest, so I don't worry about it. When the whosit has taken enough good hits, it goes down.

Iconic monsters, I'll use their stats, but I reserve those for plot points.

[begooler]

I think the DMG says that all CR's for monsters assume you have four players. I find this calculator to be very helpful for when you have a party of (not four number of people) facing a smattering of creatures of different CR's:
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm

[tyckspoon]

Am I the only DM who just makes up almost the entirety of enemies on the fly?
The players encounter a whosit... they fight it. I assign an AC based on how tough I perceive the thing to be to hit.

The rest of the stats are nonexistant. The players never know any of the rest, so I don't worry about it. When the whosit has taken enough good hits, it goes down.

Iconic monsters, I'll use their stats, but I reserve those for plot points.

I know several other DMs have mentioned that they do basically this, but from a player perspective this annoys the hell out of me, because it basically invalidates a lot of the effort I put into designing my character. If I build a melee damage output monster, or a tripper, or whatever, I expect and want to see things explode when I hit them/see trippable enemies spend all their time on their asses. I don't want the DM to go 'well, it'd be boring if this random encounter with a couple of orcs ended with two hits, so they have about 100 HP that they wouldn't have if you were weaker/a strange and inexplicable resistance to being tripped.'

[Lonely Tylenol]

Hmm... thanks for pointing that out... I guess my equation only works for the first few levels... Better to learn it now than have my party learn it at level 6 or so.

Try this formula:

1: -2 CR (+1 for standard encounters, +2 for more varied encounters). For example, a single level 10 PC might commonly fight encounters between CR 7 and 9, with 6-10 being more varied.
2-3: -1 CR (+1 for standard encounters, +2 for more varied encounters). For example, two or three level 10 PCs might commonly fight encounters between CR 8 and 10, with 7-11 being more varied.
4-5: equivalent CR (+1 for standard encounters, +2 for more varied encounters). For example, four or five level 10 PCs might commonly fight encounters between CR 9 and 11, with 8-12 being more varied.
6-7: +1 CR (+1 for standard encounters, +2 for more varied encounters). For example, six or seven level 10 PCs might commonly fight encounters between CR 10 and 12, with 9-13 being more varied.
8+: +2 CR (+1 for standard encounters, +2 for more varied encounters). For example, eight or more level 10 PCs might commonly fight encounters between CR 11 and 13, with 10-14 being more varied.

There is your "average encounter" CR formula.

Assuming low- to mid-op; if optimized well, a single PC could cleave through a horde of CR-2 encounters without breaking a sweat, so adjust accordingly.

[NeoSeraphi]

One important difference between the bard and the sorcerer is that all of the bard's spells have a verbal component, and the bard cannot affect his casting with the Silent Spell feat, ever.

[kharmakazy]

I know several other DMs have mentioned that they do basically this, but from a player perspective this annoys the hell out of me, because it basically invalidates a lot of the effort I put into designing my character. If I build a melee damage output monster, or a tripper, or whatever, I expect and want to see things explode when I hit them/see trippable enemies spend all their time on their asses. I don't want the DM to go 'well, it'd be boring if this random encounter with a couple of orcs ended with two hits, so they have about 100 HP that they wouldn't have if you were weaker/a strange and inexplicable resistance to being tripped.'

That's just shoddy DMing... When you trip things, they fall... and a good solid hit or two will drop most mooks. When done appropriately the players can't really tell you are doing it.

[Dr.Epic]

I've been playing as a player mostly, And I understand most of the rules but I need some help with some. I'll mostly be using the 3.5E rules.

1) How do I connect CR to player?
i understand the idea of CR is be a difficulty, but compared to lets say a group of one, three and five? how would a CR differ?

2) Magic:
I understand magic requires all kinds of components such as somatic and items, but what I do not understand is how this effects say a Wizard vs a Sorcerer. Or is there any difference other then prepared vs spontaneous.

3) How do you Start a world? I can make all kinds of things for the world at scratch, and I plan to start with some preset campaigns to ease myself in, but I do want to try and make My world too.

Sorry if I'm fairly newbish in asking such, but Getting my head around something takes a little :smalleek:.

Thanks for the help!

1) Depends on what you looking for with a foe:
-disposable mooks: a few or several CR below the party
-evil type opposite: the same CR or one or two below the CR
-big bad: a few or several above the CR of the party

2) Not really. For components, just use a components pouch for the basic stuff.

3) You could just start with a town and the surrounding country. It doesn't have to be too big. It could be something small for them to explore.

[Kuma Da]

Am I the only DM who just makes up almost the entirety of enemies on the fly?
The players encounter a whosit... they fight it. I assign an AC based on how tough I perceive the thing to be to hit.

The rest of the stats are nonexistant. The players never know any of the rest, so I don't worry about it. When the whosit has taken enough good hits, it goes down.

Iconic monsters, I'll use their stats, but I reserve those for plot points.

Hang on. He's not saying he ignores the players in relation to his monsters. At least, I hope he's not saying that.

Your trip attacks are just as valid against a monster the DM just made up as they are against a monster Gygax just made up ten years ago.

Crux, the best advice I can possibly offer is this: learn to improv. Don't commit yourself too heavily to any one course of action, because no scenario survives first contact with the players. They'll always see or do something you won't expect, and you can nudge them towards a plot you'd like to see happen, but you'll never truly be able to force them without the story feeling forced.

Sometimes this means house-ruling something on the fly, until you can look it up in the books later. Sometimes this means magical proxy orcs, that have the stats an orc should probably have, because you didn't expect the players to treck all the way to the northlands and start fighting orcs on a whim this session.

Never be afraid to collaborate with your players. Sometimes they'll see DM fiat as cheating, or claim you 'just made something up.' It will generally be true that you just made something up. You're the DM. That's your job. But the players aren't just readers of this one story you wrote once. They're collaborators in the writing. Bring them in on things. Ask them what they'd like to see in the game. If something's bothering them, ask them why.

Most DnD rules fights are over one thing: in-character power. The rules read one way grant a player the ability to do something. The rules read the other don't. DnD is heroic fantasy. This is fantasy about power, where the heroes have it and thereby are able to change the world. Don't be too quick to shut them down when they disagree, but also let them know that, if power's what they want, you could just give it to them. They'd have all the levels and gear and followers they could ever want. And the game would be boring as hell. This will kill a lot of rules fights dead in their tracks.

You'll figure out your own rules for DMing on your own, but that's the abridged version of mine. Work with your players, be flexible, and remember that--at the end of the day--what you're all trying to do is sit down and tell a cool story. As long as you can keep that story rolling, you're winning as a DM. :smallcool:

[nyjastul69]

Just for the sake of clarity for a new DM; Challenge Rating (CR) refers to the threat that any single beastie poses. When there is more than a single beastie the CR's are combined to form an Encounter level(EL). Page 49 of the DMG has more information regarding this.

[kharmakazy]

Hang on. He's not saying he ignores the players in relation to his monsters. At least, I hope he's not saying that.

Your trip attacks are just as valid against a monster the DM just made up as they are against a monster Gygax just made up ten years ago.



Right. The players can still do all the things they normally do, even better usually because I tend to classify enemies as either mook type or boss type and adjust accordingly. Because I don't have to consult books or stat blocks combat goes a lot quicker and tends to be more dramatic. For example I had a battle with some of a partially buried dragonlike skeleton (namely the head and two front arms). There aren't really any rules or stats for that... so I just did a bit of theater on my end, and when they had hit it enough it died. One of the players had the craziest idea to beat the hell out of it from inside its own skull...

[Crescent Crux]

Well after reading most of that I do get the main idea now. CR is mostly just a guide, the -2/+2 idea and Lonely Tylenol's post definitely put good enough perspective; Though yes a Barbarian/fighter will definitely have different cr capability then say a rogue/wizard, but using the rating as a guide I should adjust game play and difficulty to match the players.

Magic I think I just read too deep into what was read. Its definitely easier to grasp that they all need components specified, and the class stats How its cast. As for building a world, yes I think I'll definitely start small and work my way out, though I'll definitely have my players help guide the way its made as they explore. Though that is after I run a few campaigns prebuilt to get a grasp of how to DM. I already know I'll need lots of liquid to keep talking a lot ^_-


Thanks again for all the great help!

[nyjastul69]

The only piece of advice I usually offer to new a new GM is to err on the side of underpowered encounters. Increasing the EL of an encounter 'on the fly' is usually easier than decreasing the EL 'on the fly'.

I hope you and your players enjoy your stint as DM. Good luck.

[Kuma Da]

The only piece of advice I usually offer to new a new GM is to err on the side of underpowered encounters. Increasing the EL of an encounter 'on the fly' is usually easier than decreasing the EL 'on the fly'.

Also, bear in mind that the monster manual comes preloaded with a handful of totally inappropriately CR'd monsters. Be especially wary of second and third party sources for your beasties, because--while third party monsters are awesome--sometimes they include things like That Damn Crab or the murdershrooms (a little CR >1 gem from Pathfinder, with physical and elemental immunities, diseases, corpse control, practical invisibility through applied stealth bonuses, and on-damage effects.)