Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook

[Urpriest]

Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook



I should bring this to the attention of my DM, I should have 4 more d12 of hit die then I do.

Your DM and yourself should have been aware of this from the start, because it's one of the first things you look up when you decide to play a monster character. I keep seeing this attitude crop up, and frankly, it pisses me off. It pisses me off so much, that this post is going to serve as the opening quote of a handbook that I will start this evening, explaining everything people forget to look up when playing/using/modifying/transforming into monsters. That much.


Glad I was here to help in a new handbook.

As the above exchange illustrates, I am occasionally something of a monster to people new to the game. As such, I have decided to channel my destructive tendencies to explain to people new to the game how monsters work. It's going to be a long, hard road, but trust me, you need to know this.


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The all-seeing eye of this book watches you make mistakes about monsters.


Who Should Read This Handbook:

Players who want to play as a monster: This is the big one. If you want to play something that isn't in the Player's Handbook, then you absolutely need to know how monsters work.
DMs of Players who want to play monsters: Chances are someone will ask you to play a monster some day. If you don't understand monsters, they might end up playing something brokenly powerful or unusably weak.
DMs who want to modify a monster: Say you want to add class levels to a monster, or make it tougher, or add a template. If you don't know how monsters work, you'll probably do it wrong.
Any DMs at all: Let's face it, DMs use monsters. Even if you aren't messing around with them, understanding how they're put together will help you understand how to use them.
Players who want a pet monster: Your nice little wolf animal companion? A monster. That blink dog cohort? A monster. Those demons you summon? Monsters. Know how they work if you're going to be controlling or modifying them.
Players who want to turn into monsters: If you ever want to use Polymorph, or Wild Shape, or even Alter Self, you need to know what the spell gives you. And that means understanding the different parts of monsters.
Any player who has been playing a year or longer: Let's face it, monsters are an extremely important part of the game, and the way monsters work is connected with the way players work. If you don't understand monsters by now, you need to learn.


Yes, that's pretty much everyone. Still reading? Good. Because you're about to learn the first rule of monsters, the thing everyone needs to know about monsters:

1. Monsters are just like you.

In many video games, monsters have almost nothing to do with player characters. D&D 3.5 isn't like that. Monsters have levels, which give them Base Attack Bonus, Base Save Bonuses, Hit Points, Skill Points, everything your levels give you. They have races, which can give them things your races can give you. They're more afraid of you than you are of them, unless they have Frightful Presence. They're so much like you that once you learn how much, you're going to need the second rule:

2. ...Except when they're not.

Sometimes monsters are different. Their "level" isn't equal to your level. And you fight them at different levels from that! Then there's all the weird abilities they get. Of course, many of those abilities are things that you can get without being a monster, which brings us to the third and final rule:

3. You are a monster too.

Most monster stats are stats you have too, even if you haven't seen them on your character sheet. All those weird special attacks and special qualities? Those creature types? You have special attacks and special qualities. You have a creature type. Understanding monsters is understanding your own character. You want that understanding? Then read this handbook.

Before we start though, any questions?

Q: What's an Urpriest?
A: Well, when a mommy and a daddy hate their DM very much...

[Urpriest]

Monsters Got Class
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Pimp Krusk is a very classy monster.

If you remember the first rule of monsters, you might be wondering something. If monsters are just like you, then why aren't they Fighters and Monks? Where do they get their hit points?

Monsters get their hit points like you do, from classes. But instead of Fighters and Monks, monsters have classes called Racial Hit Dice. Racial Hit Dice and classes both are examples of a more broad mechanic, just called Hit Dice. Remember rule 3? Here is the biggest example of it: You have Hit Dice too.

What exactly do Hit Dice do? To explore this we're going to use an example from the Monster Manual: the Vrock, on page 48. This guy has almost every ability a monster can have, so we'll be using him throughout the handbook.

Hit points: The most obvious thing to come from Hit Dice is hit points. Each one of a monster's Hit Dice is represented by an actual die that you can roll to determine its hit points. Looking at the Vrock, we see the entry "Hit Dice: 10d8+70 (115 hp)" Like a cleric, a Vrock rolls d8s for its hit points, and just like you he adds his constitution modifier to each roll. From this we can already see that the Vrock has 10 Racial Hit Dice.
Base Attack Bonus: For each hit die, a monster's Base Attack Bonus goes up. Just like character classes, different monster hit dice increase base attack bonus at different rates. Some increase as slowly as wizards, going up only on half the hit dice. Some increase faster, like clerics. We can see from the entry "Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+20" that Vrocks get their base attack bonus the fastest of all: like a fighter, their base attack bonus goes up by one for every single one of their hit dice, giving them +10 base attack bonus.
Base Saving Throw Bonuses: Just like a fighter gains +2 to Fortitude saves at first level, so do monsters gain bonuses to saves that depend on their Racial Hit Dice. This is the first thing that it's hard to see directly from the monster's statblock. I'll teach you how to calculate a monster's base save bonuses later, but for now we'll do a simple and straightforward trick: to find the Vrock's base Will save, we subtract its Wisdom bonus from it's total Will save bonus. This gives 10-3=+7. Doing this for each of the other saves we find that the Vrock has base saving throw bonuses to Fortitude, Reflex, and Will that are all +7. We can conclude that the Vrock has the same Base Saving Throw Bonuses as a tenth-level Monk.
Skill points: Just like you, a monster gets a certain number of skill points per level. Just like you, at first level the skill points are multiplied by four, and just like you the monster adds its Intelligence bonus to skill points at every level. Monster Racial Hit Dice even have class skills, and you'll learn later how to tell what they are. Just like you, monsters can only put Hit Dice+3 skill points into their class skills, or half that into their cross class skills. Vrocks happen to gain 8 skill points per level, like a rogue.
Feats: Just like you, a monster gains a feat at first level, and another feat at levels that are multiples of three. You can see that for its ten Racial Hit Dice a Vrock gets four feats, the same number as a tenth level character.
Ability Score Increases: This is an example of Rule 2. Monsters gain most of what you gain from your Hit Dice, but they don't gain ability score increases every four levels like you do.



You might be wondering, does every monster have different racial hit dice? In the Player's Handbook there are eleven classes. Monsters, similarly, have only 15 types of Racial Hit Dice. These correspond to the fifteen Creature Types. Creature types are part race, part class, and they determine almost all of a monster's stats. They are:


Aberration: Aberrations are strange monsters with odd origins and peculiar powers. The most famous Aberration is probably the Mind Flayer.
Animal: Realistic creatures without magical powers. This includes both normal animals like wolves, and prehistoric animals like dinosaurs, as well as a few creatures that never existed in the real world at all. Before continuing, I'd like to correct a mistake I often see made:
When a spell says it affects animals, it means it affects creatures of the animal type. This means that a spell like Animal Growth won't affect you, because in D&D, unlike real life, people are not Animals! Most insects aren't animals either: they have their own type, called Vermin.
An additional point to mention is that Animals will always have Int 1 or 2. More on that later.
Construct: Constructs are robots powered by magic. Golems and animated objects are constructs.
Dragon: Dragons include both the big fire(and acid and cold etc.) breathing monsters called True Dragons, and lesser creatures like Wyverns and Dragon Turtles.
Elemental: Elementals are creatures made of a raw element, like fire or water.
Fey: Fey are nature spirits, like Nymphs and Dryads.
Giant: Giants are mostly human-shaped, but bigger and stronger.
Humanoid: Humanoid monsters are like humans. In fact, if you are playing a race from the Player's Handbook, you are a humanoid! Orcs and goblins are also humanoids, as are other similar creatures. Note that this is what the spell Charm Person references: a spell that says it only works on humanoids will only work on monsters of this type.
Magical Beast: Like animals, magical beasts aren't usually very intelligent, and don't usually use tools. Unlike animals, magical beasts often have intelligence above 2, or have magical powers. Examples include Blink Dogs and Griffons. When Handle Animal tells you the DC to train a magical beast, it means a creature of this type.
Monstrous Humanoid: Like humanoids, monstrous humanoids are roughly human-shaped. They're usually a bit beyond the range of Player's Handbook races, though, either being much bigger (like the Minotaur), or having powerful abilities (like the Medusa). Note that spells like Charm Person will not work on monstrous humanoids, because a Monstrous Humanoid is not a Humanoid.
Ooze: Oozes are blobs of carnivorous slime. Usually driven by instinct, they almost always have very low intelligence scores.
Outsider: Outsiders are creatures that represent ideals, and that usually come from different planes of existence. Devils and Demons, Angels and Eladrin, Tieflings and Aasimar (and twentieth-level Monks), all these are Outsiders.
Plant: Plants are mobile plants, often carnivorous. Like oozes they are rarely very intelligent, though some exceptions exist.
Undead: Undead are corpses and spirits of the dead, animated and powered by the evil force of Negative Energy.
Vermin: Vermin are specifically invertebrates, almost always of very low intelligence and generally some much bigger than normal version of a real-life arthropod.
Deathless: Hey wait a minute, that's 16! Deathless don't appear in the Monster Manual, but some later books include them. They're like Undead, but powered by the good force of Positive Energy.

So how do you find out what you get from your Racial Hit Dice? All of that information is in the Monster Manual Glossary, which starts on page 305. Each Creature Type is in the glossary in alphabetical order. For each creature type, two lists are given: Features and Traits. Features are like class features: they tell you what you get from Racial Hit Dice of that Creature Type. Traits are like racial traits: no matter your level, if you're a creature of that Type, you get those Traits. Let's talk about the Features, using our example of the Vrock. The first line of the Vrock's description tells us that a Vrock is a Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil, Tanar'ri). This tells us, among other things, that A Vrock is an Outsider. Turning to page 313, we see that the Features of the Outsider type are:

8-sided Hit Dice. As noted before, Vrocks roll the same dice for hit points that clerics do.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). As we noticed earlier, a Vrock has the same base attack bonus as a fighter, one that is equal to its Racial Hit Dice.
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves. "Good" is shorthand used in the glossary. A "Good" save is equal to half the number of Hit Dice plus two, like a Fighter's Fortitude save. If a save isn't Good, then it's Poor. Poor saves are like a Fighter's Will save, and they are equal to one-third of the number of Hit Dice. Since all of a Vrock's saves are good, they're like a Monk, which is exactly what we saw earlier.
Skill points equal to (8+Intelligence modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. This tells you that Vrocks get 8 skill points per level, like Rogues, and reminds you that they work just like the skill points from a Player's Handbook class, getting quadrupled at first level and the like.

Now you may notice that none of this says what class skills they get. Class skills are different for every monster. More specifically, All of the Skills in which the monster has ranks or a racial bonus are Class Skills.

Looking at the Vrock, we subtract its ability score bonuses and synergy bonuses from its skill modifiers in Skills:. It lists bonuses to Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge(any one), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, and Survival. Of these, Diplomacy and Survival are purely ability score bonus plus synergy bonus, and thus have no ranks in them. The remaining skills then are its class skills.

If you look through the Monster Manual, you'll notice that some monsters with sections that explain how to play them as characters don't follow this rule. The Minotaur gains Jump despite it being mentioned nowhere in their stats. Many monsters gain skills as class skills just because they have a synergy bonus, like the Doppleganger with Diplomacy. My recommendation is to use the book's list of class skills when it gives you one, but otherwise apply the general rule above.

So to summarize: Monsters have Racial Hit Dice, which is a lot like the Classes from the Player's Handbook, giving the monster hit points, base attack and save bonuses, skills, and feats. You have Hit Dice too, and yours come from your classes, which also give you hit points, base attack and save bonuses, skills, and feats. Vrocks have hit points like Clerics, saves like Monks, base attack bonus like Fighters, and skills like Rogues. So far, a potent combination.

[Urpriest]

Monsters Got Traits
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Someone gave these monsters too many silly traits.

A monster isn't just a class. If it was, you could have an Elf Vrock, or a Dwarf Orc, or a Human Gelatinous Cube. Monsters have Traits, which are sort of like races. The main difference between a monster's Traits and your Racial Traits is that a monster's traits are better organized and labeled. In fact, all of the racial traits you can get from the Player's Handbook are traits monsters can get too. We'll go back to the Vrock entry and see what its traits are, starting at the very first word:

Large

Each monster has a size category. You are probably Medium-size, but maybe you've played a Halfling or Gnome before, and thus been Small. Your size category modifies your AC and your attacks, as well as affecting Grapple and Hide checks. It also will usually, but not always, determine your Space and Reach, which we will discuss later. Information about size categories is in several places in the Player's Handbook, but it's also all summarized on a table on page 314 of the Monster Manual. A Vrock is Large, which immediately tells you that it takes a -1 to AC and attacks, gets +4 to Grapple, and -4 to Hide. Think of it as an inverted Halfling.

We've already discussed Creature Types, so we won't spend much time on the next word, Outsider. However, we will pause to remember that in addition to Features, the glossary entry says Outsiders get Traits, and quite a nice selection at that, including Darkvision, some weapon proficiencies, and some nonstandard rules for being resurrected.

After Outsider there's a whole big jumble of confusing words: (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil, Tanar'ri). These are the Vrock's Subtypes. Subtypes, like Creature Types, have entries in the Glossary. Like Creature Types, Subtypes have Traits, however Subtypes don't have Features. As such, Subtypes don't usually modify your monster's "class" or its Racial Hit Dice. Each of the Vrock's subtypes has a different effect. If you're curious, read up on them in the glossary, because we're moving ahead, past Hit Dice, past Initiative (noting that monsters, like players, add their Dex bonus to Initiative: the Vrock has Initiative +2 because its Dex is 15), to Speed.

Like each of the Player's Handbook races, each monster has a base Speed. Another word for a speed is a Movement Mode. The reason to use this term is because some monsters have more than one Movement Mode corresponding to different ways they can move. For example, a Vrock has a 30ft. base speed (like a human), but can also fly at a speed of 50ft. Each movement mode has different rules to it: Flight has a maneuverability rating (average for the Vrock), Swim and Climb Speeds are more useful than just making Swim or Climb checks, and a Burrow Speed lets a creature move through dirt (but not usually solid rock). If a creature has a nonstandard movement speed, you should always check the Monster Manual Glossary to figure out what it does. Some Movement Modes are also describe in the Dungeon Master's Guide, Flight in particular is on page 20.

After Speed the entry shows the Vrock's Armor Class. Armor Class is calculated just like it is for characters, with Dex, Armor, and a bonus or penalty for sizes different from Medium. Many monsters also have a bonus from something called Natural Armor. Like Armor, Natural Armor doesn't protect against touch attacks, but still helps if you're flat-footed. Natural Armor stacks with Armor, so if the Vrock were to put on Full Plate it would get +11 to AC from its Natural Armor and +8 to AC from the Full Plate. Some monsters get other bonuses to AC, like a Deflection bonus, and these will usually be explained in their entry.

We already understand Base Attack, while Grapple is calculated just like it is for normal characters. Next two sections loom their ugly heads: Attack: and Full Attack:. Attack shows you how the monster makes just one attack, while Full Attack shows when the monster is able to make a Full Attack action. You'll notice that most monsters don't attack with swords, instead they have Natural Weapons. Natural Weapons are a complicated topic, and for a detailed discussion of them I'll direct you to Solo and Keld Denar's excellent guide on the subject (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0;). Here we will just mention that all of a creature's natural weapons will be listed in the Full Attack, along with the number of attacks that can be made with them. The Vrock, for example, has two Claws, one Bite, and two Talons. An important point needs to be made here, following Rule 1: Having a Natural Weapons is Just Like Having a Normal Weapon. In particular, when you gain a natural weapon you get something with a specific Damage, Critical (usually x2), Range Increment (usually none), and Type(where here Type means Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing). You then calculate your bonus to hit in the same way you would for a normal weapon, adding base attack bonus, strength, and miscellaneous bonuses like those from size or Weapon Focus. In the case of the Vrock, we see that +10 Base Attack +6 Strength Bonus -1 from Large size gives +15, which is the bonus for the Vrock's Claw attacks. The other attacks take a -2 penalty, the reasons why are explained in Keld and Solo's guide.

Another important point to make is that sometimes a creature's Natural Weapons will be modified by its other abilities, in particular its feats. The feat Improved Natural Attack increases a monster's Natural Attack's damage as if the monster had grown by one size category. If a monster has this feat, the damage listed in the Attack: and Full Attack: sections will be higher than that of the base Natural Weapons of the monster, and you will need to decrease the damage if the monster takes a different feat.

Next we see Space/Reach:. The first of these numbers tells you what space the monster takes up in combat. Unlike Player's Handbook races, Large and larger monsters take up more than just one square. Indeed, they live in a square with each side the length given in Space. The monster's reach is how far away it can attack with normal weapons or natural weapons. See Big And Little Creatures In Combat on page 149 of the Player's Handbook for more information. Note that unlike a reach weapon like a guisarme, a monster with Reach can attack anywhere within its reach, not just on the edge squares.

After Space/Reach we come to one of the more involved parts of the entry, the Special Attacks and Special Qualities. Both of these are examples of Special Abilities. Special Abilities are special things the monster does or traits the monster has. You have Special Abilities Too. However, most of your Special Abilities come from your classes. Special Abilities are divided up in two ways, based on how they're used and how they work.

How they're used: Special Abilities are either Special Attacks or Special Qualities. Special Attacks are things the monster uses actively, like spells or sneak attack. Special Qualities are things that are always-on, like Damage reduction or Acid Resistance.

How they work: Special Abilities fall into the following three types. To tell which sort of special ability it is, look after the ability's name in the more detailed description of it. You'll see an entry in parentheses. These indicate:
(Ex): Extraordinary Abilities: Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical and represent the monster's unique physical shape and things it knows how to do. Even if it breaks the laws of physics it might still be an Extraordinary Ability, because D&D physics is very different from real-world physics. The Vrock's Spores are an Extraordinary Ability, but they aren't its only one. The Vrock's Resistance to Energy and Spell Resistance aren't described in detail in its entry, to know what they do you have to check the Glossary. The Monster Manual Glossary says that these are Extraordinary Abilities too! In general, if an ability is not fully described in a monster's description, you should always check the glossary for more information.

Extraordinary Abilities are very common, so common that you have had them all along without noticing. In fact, when you take a feat, it becomes an Extraordinary Ability. That's why you keep your feats in an Antimagic Field. Many classes have Extraordinary Abilities too. For example, the Barbarian's Rage is an Extraordinary Ability.

(Sp): Spell-Like Abilities: Spell-Like Abilities aren't spells, but they are very much like them. They often duplicate spells, and use the spell's system for saving throw DCs. They have a caster level (usually listed in the entry. If it's not listed, it defaults to equal to Racial Hit Dice), and if the spell they're based on can be defeated by spell resistance, then so can the spell-like ability. They also provoke attacks of opportunity. However, they have no components and can't be used to counterspell. The Monster Manual Glossary says they always take a Standard Action to use, while page 180 of the Player's Handbook suggests that they take as long to use as the spell they're based on. Most of the time Spell-Like Abilities are given their own entry in the monster's description, giving a list of how many the monster has access to and how often they can be used. If an ability can be used At-Will, then it has no use limit, but it still requires a Standard Action. Some Spell-Like Abilities are more different from spells and get their own separate entry. An example is the Vrock's Summon Tanar'ri ability. Player's Handbook classes also grant Spell-Like Abilities. For example, the Bard's Fascinate ability is a Spell-Like Ability.

(Su): Supernatural Abilities: Supernatural Abilities are magical, but they're a deeper type of magic than spells. They can't be dispelled, don't provoke attacks of opportunity, and aren't subject to spell resistance. Usually they take a Standard Action to use. A Vrock's Supernatural Abilities include its Dance of Ruin and Stunning Screech, as well as (see the Glossary), its Damage Reduction and Telepathy. Of the Player's Handbook Classes the Monk gets many Supernatural Abilities, fitting its theme as a flashy, magical martial artist. These include Ki Strike, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, and Empty Body.


One thing to notice is that many of these abilities have save DCs. If you've ever played a spellcaster, you know that your spells have save DCs equal to 10+spell level+key ability modifier, where the key ability modifier depends on the class involved. Spell-like abilities are almost exactly the same, but the key ability modifier for spell-like abilities is Charisma unless otherwise noted. Extraordinary and Supernatural Abilities aren't based on spells, so they don't have a spell level for that formula. Instead, you use half of the monster's Racial Hit Dice as an effective spell level. The key ability varies based on what sort of ability the monster has: breath weapons usually use Constitution, Trample attacks use Strength, while many Supernatural Abilities use Charisma. Most of the time the description of the ability itself will tell you what the key ability is. For example, the Vrock's Stunning Screech says that the save DC is Constitution-based. Let's check: 10+5 (half of 10 racial hit dice) +7 (Constitution bonus) = 22, which is the DC to resist the Vrock's Stunning Screech!

Some monsters can also cast Spells. For example, the Solar Angel casts spells as a 20th level Cleric. While some people argue that Spells are an Extraordinary Ability too, they aren't labeled that way in the Monster Manual. It's a controversial topic, and you should probably read up on it if you think it might be relevant to your game.

After Special Abilities we come to Saves:, which I've already explained, so let's move on to Abilities:. Remember when I said that monsters don't increase their ability scores every 4 levels like you do? Well it's even worse than that, in a way: (Almost) All Monsters Are Average!

What does average mean? Average means that all of their base ability scores are 10 or 11. If they have ability scores that aren't 10 or 11, it's because they have racial bonuses or penalties. So how do you tell what their racial bonuses and penalties are? We use this very important rule: In D&D, Ability Bonuses and Penalties Are Always Even (Except for Aging), and further Odd Ability Bonuses and Penalties are bad Game Design. Why are they bad game design? Because your ability modifier only changes on even scores. If your score is 17, a +1 bonus will put it up to 18, giving you a big bonus across the board. If your score is 16, a +1 bonus will put it up to 17, doing almost nothing! So a +1 bonus either does the same thing as a +2 bonus, or does nothing, according to totally random details. That's Bad Game Design.

Now that we know that Monster Races will always have even ability score modifiers, and that All Monsters Are Average, finding the racial ability modifiers is easy: subtract 11 if it's an odd score, or 10 if it's even! Let's try it out on the Vrock: 23-11 is 12, so the Vrock race gets a +12 bonus to Strength. 15-11 is 4, giving +4 Dex, 25-11 is 14, giving +14 Con, 14-10 is 4, giving +4 Int, 16-10 is 6, giving +6 Wis, and 16-10 is 6 again, giving +6 Cha. So the Vrock race gives +12 Str, +4 Dex, +14 Con, +4 Int, +6 Wis, and +6 Cha. If a monster has an ability score below 10, then you just use negative numbers. For example, the Derro (next page from the Vrock) has Wis 5: 5-11=-6, so the Derro has a -6 penalty to Wis.

Did you notice the (Almost Always) note above? Some monsters start out a little better than average. Usually this is used when the monster is actually an NPC with a class level in an NPC class. For example, the Elf on page 102 is a first-level warrior, and the end of the Elf entry says that it had the stats 13,11,12,10,9,8 before racial adjustments. In general, if a monster is not average, it will tell you at the end of its entry.

Some Monsters have Ability Scores that say -- rather than a number. This is called a Nonability. Nonabilities don't mean that the monster has an ability score of zero, they mean that the monster doesn't have that score at all, because they don't need it. A monster that only acts based on programming or instinct doesn't need an Intelligence score, while one that is sustained by magic or Negative Energy doesn't need a Constitution. Monsters might have a Nonability for Strength if their only way of affecting the world is through magic, like a ghost, or a Nonability for Dex if they can fight by just sitting still and shrieking (this last is mostly a joke, but do check out the Shrieker on page 112). Nonabilities have special effects that are different from low ability scores, you should look them up under Nonabilities in the Glossary if you want to know what a specific one does. An Animal's Intelligence is kind of like a nonability in that while it does have an actual Intelligence score, it can't go above 2. A creature that actually has a nonability in intelligence, like a golem, doesn't gain any skill points or feats. No creature will ever have a Nonability in Wisdom or Charisma, as a creature needs Wisdom to perceive its surroundings and Charisma to distinguish itself from the outside world. Anything which lacks a Wisdom or Charisma score is an object.

After Abilities we have Skills:. One thing to note about skills: just like you, monsters can have racial bonuses to skills! If a monster has a racial bonus to a skill it will be listed in a separate Skills: section after their abilities are described. For example, the Vrock has a +8 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. Beat that elves!

Also just like elves, a monster can have Racial Bonus Feats. If a monster gets a feat as a bonus feat, it will have a (B) after it in the Feats: section. The Vrock doesn't get any racial bonus feats, so let's look briefly at a monster that does: the Pixie, on page 236. Pixies gain Dodge as a bonus feat, and according to errata they gain Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat as well.

After the Feats: section, the monster description tells you things related to how the monster comes up in games, including where they commonly live (their Environment:), what sort of groups they typically form (their Organization:), their Challenge Rating, their typical Treasure, and their typical Alignment. For most monsters these are just suggestions. Alignment in particular will vary as much for monsters as for races from the Player's Handbook. The exception is if the alignment starts with Always: these monsters are born with this alignment, and will only change alignment under very special circumstances. The monster entry finishes out by giving Advancement and Level Adjustment, which tells you how DMs and Players can use and modify the monster. I'll explain both of those later.

[Urpriest]

I Wanna Be a Monster When I Grow Up

So, after all that, you want to play a monster character? Those nice Hit Dice tempting you to be a Vrock, for example? Well, you've got a lot to learn. If you want to get a monster as a cohort via the Leadership feat then you also need to use this section. DMs should read this section too, since I'll be introducing concepts that are important to building monsters as a DM as well.

First, I'm going to note that almost none of this section applies to Pathfinder. Pathfinder is a newer version of 3.5 D&D with its own rules for playing monsters, described here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs).

If you want to play a monster, the first thing you need to understand is that level doesn't mean what you thought it meant.


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The levels of Monsters are a difficult matter, it isn't just one of your Roleplaying Games. You may think at first I'm as mad as a Derro, when I tell you a Monster has Three Different Levels...

That's right, Three Different Levels! And to clear up a common misunderstanding, Level Adjustment is not a Level! It is, as the name should indicate, an adjustment to a level, much in the same way that an elf doesn't have 2 Dex, he or she has a Dex adjustment of +2. You have a Level Adjustment too: if your race is from the Player's Handbook, you have a +0 Level Adjustment. This is important because you can't play something if it doesn't have a level adjustment. Some monster entries say Level Adjustment: --. That means that that monster is not appropriate for players to play. Some other entries have a level adjustment, but say (cohort) in parentheses. That means that they are only appropriate as cohorts gained through the Leadership feat, and not as regular Player Characters.

Now to understand monsters as Player Characters, a good way to think about how they work is that Monster Characters are like Multiclass Characters. A Paladin 10/Fighter 9 is a multiclass character with 10 levels of Paladin and 9 levels of Fighter. Similarly, a Vrock Fighter 1 is a multiclass character with 10 "levels" of Vrock Racial Hit Dice and one level of Fighter. Racial Hit Dice are always a favored class, so characters never take multiclass XP penalties for their Racial Hit Dice.

The three different levels are:

Effective Character Level: Effective Character Level, or ECL, is equal to your Racial Hit Dice, plus your Class Levels, plus your Level Adjustment. Put another way, Level Adjustment adjusts your ECL. As you may have noticed, a Vrock's ten Racial Hit Dice are way nicer than any ten levels of a Player's Handbook Class. The Level Adjustment serves to balance out how good these racial hit dice are, as well as the Vrock's many powerful traits and abilities. Effective Character Level is used to determine how much XP you have and who you should adventure with. Our example Vrock Fighter 1 has ten Racial Hit Dice, one Class Level, and a Level Adjustment of +8. Together, that means it has an ECL of 19, which means it should have more than 171,000 XP, and it will gain its next level when it reaches 190,000 XP. It should be adventuring with 19th level characters, so it is an appropriate party member for our Paladin 10/Fighter 9. Since it's adventuring with 19th level characters it is going to get treasure appropriate for a 19th level character. If your DM has been giving you the right amount of treasure (roughly that described on page 51 of the DMG), then at 19th level you should have total wealth around 580,000gp per person, as explained on page 135 of the DMG, so if you started out at 19th level this is an appropriate amount to start with.
Character Level: Remember how your class levels in Fighter and the like were really Hit Dice? Well, your Character Level is your total Hit Dice, Racial Hit Dice plus Class Levels. The Vrock Fighter 1 has Character Level 10+1=11, while the Paladin 10/Fighter 9 has Character Level 19. Unless it's one of the exceptions I described above, whenever the rules refer to level and they don't specify a particular class they mean Character Level. For example, a spell that affects characters of 15th level or lower would hurt the Vrock, but it wouldn't hurt the Paladin.
Class Level/Racial Hit Dice: As I've said before, Racial Hit Dice and Class Level are very similar. In particular, many abilities depend only on your level in your "monster class", just like many abilities of a multiclass character only depend on the level in one of the classes. Our Paladin 10/Fighter 9 adds 10 to damage with Smite Evil, not 19, because Smite Evil is based on Paladin Level. Similarly, if our Vrock leveled up to Fighter 2, it would have a Character Level of 12, but its Racial Hit Dice would still be 10, so when calculating save DCs for its abilities you use its Racial Hit Dice, so the save DCs are the same as before the Fighter levels.



So now that you know what your three levels are, how do you make a character? What do you get?

What you don't get: Word-for-word what's written in the monster's description.
What you do get: All the Racial Hit Dice, all the Features of the Racial Hit Dice, and all the Traits.
What you need to do: Use the Features and Traits to calculate your stats.

Every Monster Comes with its Racial Hit Dice. If you are a Vrock, you have 10 Outsider Hit Dice, and they have a list of Class Skills which has everything listed in the Vrock's Skills: section. However, it is up to you to decide how you wish to spend the Vrock's skill points, you don't have to make the same choices the Vrock in the Monster Manual did. Similarly, you get to choose which Feats you want, getting one at first level and one on every Character Level that's a multiple of three.

There is one exception to this. If the Monster starts out with only one Racial Hit Die then you may (as per Savage Species, Page 13) trade it out for a level in a character class. You then gain none of the Features, but you still gain the Traits. For example, you could play a Pixie Rogue 1, trading your Fey Hit Die for a level of Rogue, leaving you with ECL 1+4=5. This happens automatically for Humanoids, which is why all of the low level humanoids in the Monster Manual are presented as first level Warriors.

Player Character Monsters are Not Average. As a Player Character you start out with the maximum hit points at first level. The same is true for a Monster Player Character. As a Player Character your ability scores aren't just 10 or 11, you roll them or you use a point buy system. Player Character Monsters get to roll or use point buy as well, and add their racial ability modifiers on top, with the caveat that Ability Scores can never go below 1 due to racial penalties, and Intelligence can never go below 3. Beyond that, it's just like a normal character, but with bigger bonuses. For example, if our Vrock Fighter rolled 17, 15, 10, 8, 12, and 11, it could get a Strength of 17+12=29, a Con of 15+14=29, a Dex of 12+4=16, an Int of 10+4=14, a Wis of 11+6=17, and a Cha of 8+6=14.

Once you level up past your original Racial Hit Dice, your ability scores increase with Character Level just like an ordinary character's do. For example, if your Vrock reaches Fighter 2, it has a total of 12 Hit Dice. That's a multiple of 4, so the Vrock can raise one of its scores by 1. It will probably go with Strength, to get an impressive Strength of 30.

You do have to calculate things. You have to add up your total base attack bonus from all your classes, along with Strength modifier and anything else important, to find your bonus to melee attacks. You have to take half your racial hit dice and your new ability modifiers to determine your Save DCs for your Abilities. In short, you have some work to do.

To give you an idea of what you can do by applying yourself to monsters, poster SillySymphonies has graciously provided us with a list of "as characters" entries for all Monster Manual monsters with LA here (http://www.sendspace.com/file/mx7puu).


Q: Is it worth it?
A: Ah, I thought you were going to ask that. You may have noticed that your ECL 19 Vrock Fighter 1 is only Character Level 11. It's got a total Base Attack Bonus of only +11, not much better than a Wizard, and Base Saving Throws of a tenth-level Monk are similarly not that impressive when your friends are level 19. Sure you can use greater teleport as many times per day as you like, but what do you do when you get there?

The sad truth of the matter is that sometimes playing a Monster simply isn't worth it.




Monster Myth #1: Savage Species Will Save the Day!

So maybe you've picked up a book called Savage Species. You've looked in the back, and you've seen the monster classes, and you thought, "Oh, cool! This lets me play monsters without all that pesky level adjustment."

WRONG!

The Monster Classes in Savage Species are designed to let lower level characters play monsters. However, they do not change what it means to play a monster. In particular,

A Character who reaches max level in a Savage Species Monster Class is exactly the same as a character who started as that monster, including Level Adjustment.

Note that the second column of every Savage Species class lists Hit Dice. Those are your total Hit Dice, not just those gained at that level. Notice that at many levels you don't gain Hit Dice. Those levels represent your Level Adjustment kicking in as you gain more powerful abilities. As you can see on the table, you only gain Skill Points and Feats when your Hit Dice say you would, independent of your Level in the Monster Class. For some classes (like those for templates), you never gain any hit dice at all.

Now let's look at the Vrock Monster Class, on page 203 of Savage Species. Its max level is 16, but a Vrock with no other class levels has an ECL of 18. What's going on?

Savage Species is from Edition 3.0. You play Edition 3.5. When Edition 3.0 was upgraded to Edition 3.5, many small changes were made. If you want to play a Monster Class from Savage Species, you need to change it to match the Monster's 3.5 stats. For example, Vrocks used to have 8 Racial Hit Dice, and now they have 10. You need to make a new balanced class with the right number of levels, which can be challenging if the monster has changed a lot.

So now that we know this, what are Savage Species Monster Classes good for?

Savage Species Monster Classes let you start the game as a monster. If your friends are at first level, then if you play a first level Vrock (adjusted for the change to 3.5 of course), you should fit right in. Remember though, that you must level up in the monster class all the way. If you start with a level in Vrock, you can't go away and take a level in Fighter. You have to get every single level of Vrock first, going from a fledgeling to a full-blown demon, before you can take a level of another class.

Savage Species Monster Classes might let you play things that aren't normally ok choices. While Savage Species is 3.0, some Monsters haven't changed very much. If you find one, and it doesn't have a Level Adjustment listed in the Monster Manual, you may be able to get your DM to let you play it using the Monster Class. For example, Elementals don't have a Level Adjustment in the Monster Manual, but Savage Species gives them one, so you might be able to play an Elemental.


Monster Myth #1 Corollary: Savage Progressions Will Save the Day!

This is sort of true, but distasteful. Savage Progressions come from a series of articles on the Wizards of the Coast Website (Wizards of the Coast are the guys who made D&D 3.5). The articles are archived here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp), and the first article, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) explains how they work.

The important difference between Savage Progressions and Savage Species Monster Classes is that you don't have to take all the levels of a Savage Progression.

Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar. A character must still take the first level of wereboar before taking the second, just as with a normal class.
This means that you can just take one level, enough to feel like the monster you want to be, and then go take other levels in other things. You can be as monstery as you want.

The catch is that these Savage Progressions are somewhat poorly designed. Some give very good benefits at first level, others aren't worth taking any levels at all. Use them with caution.




Monster Myth(or Fact) #2: LA Buyoff Will Save the Day!

On page 18 of Unearthed Arcana is a rather popular variant system. It's listed under the header Reducing Level Adjustments, but most people just call it LA Buyoff, or LA Buyback. It's also available here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).

LA Buyoff is built around the idea that a Level Adjustment is an important balancing factor at lower levels, but not so much of one at higher levels. At first level the Aasimar's +2 Wis, +2 Cha make it potentially better than any of the races in the Player's Handbook, but for a twentieth level character those bonuses are almost meaningless.

LA Buyoff works by letting you pay experience points to reduce your level adjustment. You pay experience points equal to (your current ECL-1)x1000, and your level adjustment goes down by one. When you can do this is restricted. In order to buy off a level adjustment you must have had that level adjustment for a number of levels equal to (level adjustment)x3, not including racial hit dice. For example, if you are a Gnoll, you have two racial hit dice and one point of level adjustment. 1x3=3, so you need three class levels before you can buy off that point of level adjustment, getting you to ECL 6 in total. Then you pay (6-1)x1000=5000 XP, and you lose your +1 level adjustment, dropping down to ECL 5.

Suppose instead you are a Svirfneblin with no racial hit dice and a level adjustment of +3. The first change you get to buy off level adjustment is when you have accumulated 3x3=9 class levels, so ECL 12. You pay (12-1)x1000=11,000 XP, and your level adjustment goes from +3 to +2, bringing you to ECL 11. Now that your level adjustment is +2, you need to wait 2x3=6 more levels to buy off your next point of level adjustment, so you won't get to do so until ECL 17. Then you pay (17-1)x1000=16,000 XP, dropping your level adjustment to +1 and your ECL to 16. Finally, you only need to gain 1x3=3 more levels to buy off the final +1 of level adjustment, so at level 19 you can pay (19-1)x1000=18,000 XP to get to level adjustment +0 and ECL 18.

As you can see, a character without too much level adjustment will eventually catch up to their fellows, but it's a long, hard road. Also, many DMs won't allow this since it's from a variant system. If your DM does allow it, it's a decent, but not amazing, way to make the game somewhat fairer.

Be careful to note these rules allow you to buy out Level Adjustment, not Racial Hit Dice. Getting rid of your racial hit dice is much harder, and requires cheesy tricks that go beyond the scope of this handbook.


So in conclusion: Playing a monster is hard. No matter what trick you use, you still will likely have trouble being as useful as someone who chose not to play a monster. If only there was a way to play monsters that mirrored the design of the better character classes, where you gain what you need to do your job and enough versatility to do other things as well. It would be a massive homebrew project, but wouldn't it be wonderful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204860) if someone was working on that? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557.0)

[Urpriest]

We Can Improve It, We Have The Technology!
http://images.wikia.com/forgottenrealms/images/e/ea/Half-Golems2_-_Wayne_Reynolds.jpg
These monsters have been "improved" with a template.

Hey DMs: are you running out of monsters? Have your players read every book you have? Can they quote a monster's AC after you give the first sentence of it's description? If so, then you might want to try modifying monsters.

Many players modify monsters too. If you are a Wizard or Sorceror with a Familiar, a Druid or Ranger with an Animal Companion, or a Paladin with a Special Mount, you need to learn how to modify monsters!

The first and most important rule of modifying monsters as a DM is the following: as a DM, ECL doesn't matter!

As explained in the previous section, ECL determines how much XP a character needs to gain a level, and what sort of adventuring party a character should be in. These aren't things that matter to monsters that the players are supposed to fight. Instead, a DM has two other levels to pay attention to:


Challenge Rating: Every monster has a Challenge Rating, or CR. Roughly speaking, a monster's CR is the level at which a character should be to have a 50% chance of defeating it alone. This also means the monster has a 50% chance of defeating the player! This is why it is normal for a party of four adventurers to fight a monster of a CR equal to their level. After fighting four such monsters in a row, the party's resources (the Fighter's Hit Points, the Wizard's Spells) should be nearly spent. By spreading out resources over the four party members, the adventuring party can fight things that might kill one of them on their own.

As a DM, there are two things you use CR for: experience points, and treasure. Page 38 of the Dungeon Master's Guide tells you how many experience points players get for defeating a monster of a specific CR, while the section starting on page 52 tells you how to randomly roll the standard treasure for a monster of that CR.

Encounter Level: Let's say you want the party to fight more than one monster at once. How do you figure out how many? In order to determine when an encounter is an appropriate challenge for a party, you use Encounter Level. If the party's average level is equal to the Encounter Level, then that encounter is a good, challenging fight for the party. Page 49 of the Dungeon Master's Guide tells you how to calculate the Encounter Level for many different possible groups of monsters. It seems complicated, but most of it is based on a simple formula: When you double the number of monsters, you add two to the Encounter Level. This is because even if you have a lot of monsters on the table, if they're all very weak compared to the players then they won't be as much of a challenge. Double the monsters is not double the challenge.


So now you've got an Encounter Level and Challenge Rating in mind, how do you improve monsters to meet it? In general, there are four ways monsters improve:

Advancing Hit Dice: Each monster has an Advancement: entry. For our friend the Vrock, this entry reads 11-14 HD (Large), 15-30 HD (Huge). What does this mean? When you Advance a monster's Hit Dice, you add more Racial Hit Dice to the monster. It's like leveling up in the monster's "class". The Advancement entry tells you the max level for the "class" (30 in this case), and whether the monster's size increases as it levels up (more on this later).
Gaining Class Levels: A monster can also multiclass into a normal character class. In the above section we talked about monsters becoming PCs, here we talk about monsters becoming NPCs. A few of the rules for this are different. Some monsters have Advancement: By character class, which means that they can't ever gain any more Racial Hit Dice, and they only advance this way.
Gaining a Template: Templates are instructions for modifying monsters. A template can change everything about a monster, or it can change almost nothing at all. A few very weird templates even can be applied to things that aren't monsters!
Being Modified By a Class Ability: This is what Wizards do to their Familiars, and Druids do to their Animal Companions. Almost like a template, these class abilities modify the monster's stats. Some class abilities give monsters Bonus Hit Dice. It is important to remember that Gaining Bonus Hit Dice is not the same as Advancing Hit Dice. In particular, Bonus Hit Dice do not make a monster increase in size.

We're going to go through these options one by one and talk about how they work.

Advancing Hit Dice

When a monster advances in hit dice, it gains more Racial Hit Dice. Like the Racial Hit Dice it already had, these carry the Features of its Type, so its Base Attack Bonus, Base Save Bonuses, Skill Points, and Feats all increase. The monster also gains an increase to an ability score when its total Hit Dice reach a multiple of four, just like characters do. If you're advancing a monster, feel free to change where it put its Skill Points and Feats based on what you think it should have. Since these new Hit Dice are Racial Hit Dice, they increase Saving Throw DCs for the monster's Special Attacks.

As mentioned, Advancing in Hit Dice can also cause a monster to increase in size. For example, if you want a Vrock to increase to 15 Racial Hit Dice, you have to increase its size to Huge. When a monster increases from size due to Advancing in Hit Dice, its stats change according to the table on page 291 of the Monster Manual. The monster's Str, Con, Dex, natural armor, and natural weapon damage all might change, and the change in the monster's size will change its size bonus/penalty to AC and attacks. Note that the table on page 291 is only used for Advancing in Hit Dice, unless otherwise mentioned. In particular, if a monster increases in size some other way, such as from the Enlarge spell or a Template, it does not gain these bonuses to its stats. Many templates that increase size will direct you to use this table for ability adjustments, but this is not universal.

You can also make the monster's ability scores better in another way. When you advance a monster, you can declare that it is no longer completely average. Instead, you can give it the Elite Array or the Nonelite Array. The Elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, while the Nonelite Array is 13 12 11 10 9 8. In either case you can rearrange these scores as you like, they don't have to stay in order. As you can see, the Elite Array represents a monster that it more powerful than normal (with the exception of one weakness), while the Nonelite Array is about equal in power, but more specialized. Once you have chosen an array, you apply the monster's racial ability score modifiers to find its final ability scores.

Once you have chosen how to Advance the monster, you need to calculate it's new CR. This is based on the number of Hit Dice you added. Some Hit Dice are more powerful than others: we've noticed that the Vrock has very nice Hit Dice, while undead have much less powerful Hit Dice. Because of this, different creature types get different amounts of CR from advancing in hit dice. If your monster is an Aberration, Construct, Elemental, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Ooze, Plant, Undead, or Vermin, it gains one point of CR for every four hit dice it advances. If the monster is an Animal, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid, it gains one point of CR for every three hit dice. Finally, if the monster is a Dragon, or an Outsider (like the Vrock), it gains one point of CR for every two hit dice it advances.

Some other factors need to be considered before you reach the monster's final CR. If the monster increased from Medium to Large, you need to add an additional +1 to the CR, as Large creatures can be much more powerful than Medium creatures. If you used the Elite Array, you also need to add +1 to the CR. The Nonelite Array can be applied without changing the CR.

For example, suppose we increased our Vrock to 16 HD. The Vrock has gained 6 hit dice, and since it is an Outsider this means that its CR goes up from 9 to 12. It also increased from Large to Huge, but since it was already Large this does not increase its CR. If you wanted to give it the Elite Array that would be an additional +1, making its CR 13.

Gaining Class Levels

Giving monsters class levels as a DM follows many of the same rules as giving them class levels as a player. The process remains much like multiclassing, with the new Hit Dice from classes added on top of the old Racial Hit Dice. A few details are important to remember, though:

Monsters (and all NPCs, since they're monsters too) don't roll ability scores. Instead, monsters use an array. Monsters with class levels aren't average. In fact, in most cases, you should use the Elite Array (as described earlier) for monsters with class levels. Monsters with class levels can use the Elite Array with no increase in CR. If a monster is in an NPC class like Warrior, Adept, or Expert, then you can consider using the Nonelite Array instead. Monsters with class levels should never use Average Scores.

Monsters don't have Wealth, they have Gear. The Wealth-by-Level guidelines are for PCs. NPCs and Monsters have Treasure, or Gear. If a monster has class levels it should have the same gear as an NPC of its CR. NPCs have gear values given on page 127 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. These values are about triple the standard treasure for a monster of their level. In general, a monster gets its treasure entry in addition to its gear, which means a monster with class levels has a lot of treasure. If your party is going to fight a lot of monsters with class levels, try to balance out the increase in treasure by having them fight a few traps or monsters with no treasure, like golems. Note also that you can change the treasure rewards around a little as long as you keep the appropriate average, but that a monster with class levels is expected to have at least the NPC gear in order to be as effective as an NPC of their CR.

Sometimes class levels will increase a monster's CR, sometimes they won't. The rules for this are the rules for Associated and Nonassociated Class Levels, and they are on page 294 of the Monster Manual. The purpose of the rules for Associated and Nonassociated Class Levels is as follows: sometimes a class is straightforwardly good for a monster. If your monster likes to hit things with its claws, a level of Barbarian will make it better at doing so. On the other hand, a CR 15 monster with a single level of Wizard isn't much different from a monster without that level, since first level Wizard spells don't matter very much when you're 15th level. In general, a class is Associated if it contributes to the monster's strengths. In particular, if the monster relies on its fighting ability, Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger are associated. If the monster relies on sneaking up on its enemies, Rogue and Ranger are associated. If the monster can cast spells, the class that it casts spells as is associated. Note that if a monster that casts spells takes a level of a class that casts the same sort of spells, the levels stack for determining their spellcasting. For example, a Rakshasa casts spells as a seventh level Sorceror. A Rakshasa Sorceror 1 would then cast spells as an eighth level Sorceror, while a Rakshasa Wizard 1 would cast spells as a multiclass seventh level Sorceror/ first level Wizard. The Sorceror level is associated, the Wizard level is nonassociated. For classes not listed here, compare them to the listed classes to figure out where they go. For example, the Blackguard is a melee class, so a monster that fights in melee (like a Frost Giant) would treat it as associated. Interestingly enough, some monsters can qualify for prestige classes with just their Racial Hit Dice alone!

Once you know whether a class is associated or nonassociated, you calculate the CR as follows: if the class is associated, every level in it adds 1 to the CR. For example, a Vrock Fighter 2 is CR 11, since Fighter is an associated class for a melee monster like the Vrock. If the class is nonassociated, every two levels add 1 to the CR. For example, a Vrock Wizard 2 would be CR 10, since Vrocks don't have racial Wizard spellcasting.

Eventually, a monster has so many levels in a nonassociated class that the class is a bigger part of how the monster fights than the monster's stats! When a nonassociated class level is equal to the monster's Racial Hit Dice, all further levels in that class are treated as associated. Going back to our Vrock example, let's say the Vrock has gotten up to level 10 in Wizard. These levels are equal to his Racial Hit Dice, so they are still nonassociated and the Vrock's CR is 14. When the Vrock gains its next level in Wizard, that new level is associated, so the Vrock now has CR 15, and will gain one more CR for each additional level of Wizard.

The Monster Manual also says that NPC classes (like Adept or Warrior) are always treated as non-associated. However, the DMG says that a monster with an NPC class should just subtract one from the CR it would otherwise gain from that class. It is important to remember that CR is always an estimate. Since you have two conflicting standards, you should use both of them for advice and try to find a middle ground that accurately represents the challenge the monster provides.

Gaining a Template

A template is a list of instructions for modifying a monster. In general, templates are self-explanatory: if you know how monsters work and you follow the instructions you should be able to apply the template correctly. However, templates use a few sorts of special terminology and rules:

Inherited and Acquired Templates: In 3.5, every template should say whether it is an Inherited or Acquired template. Inherited templates like Half-Dragon are templates a creature is born with, while Acquired templates like Vampire are gained later in the creature's life. A creature can have more than one template. If you apply multiple templates to a creature, the Inherited templates need to be applied before the Acquired templates, for obvious reasons.

Templates have prerequisites: Just like feats and prestige classes, sometimes monsters need to have certain attributes to have a template. Usually this will be listed in the first few sentences of the template. For example, the Vampire template says that it can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature. This means that since Ogres are Giants, an Ogre cannot be a Vampire.

The Augmented Subtype: Some templates change a creature's type. Every Vampire is Undead, while every Half-Dragon has the Dragon type. However, this doesn't usually mean that you have to change all of a monster's Racial Hit Dice when it gets a template. Unless the template says otherwise, if a template changes a creature's type gains the Augmented(Former Creature Type) subtype. For example, a Half-Dragon that you based off a Brown Bear goes from being an Animal to a Dragon(Augmented Animal). The Augmented Subtype means that, while the creature gains the Traits of its new Type, it keeps the Features of its original Type. So a Half-Dragon Brown Bear would have the same Base Attack Bonus as a normal Brown Bear, and would not gain the Base Attack Bonus of a creature of the Dragon Type. Even if a template says it changes a creature's Hit Dice, those changes only apply to Racial Hit Dice unless the template says otherwise. In particular, while some types of Undead change all of a creature's Hit Dice, including those gained from classes, (Vampire and Lich are both examples) if the template does not say it changes Hit Dice from classes, it does not do so.

Size Increases: Some templates change a creature's size. If a template changes a creature's size, its size bonuses and penalties change according to the table on page 291, as does its natural armor. However, the creature's Str, Dex, and Con do not change unless the template explicitly says they do.

Save DCs and other effects based on Hit Dice: Remember how when we discussed Racial Hit Dice, we said that abilities a monster has based on Hit Dice are only based on Racial Hit Dice, just like a Paladin's Smite is only based on Paladin levels? Well templates are different. Instead of being like class abilities, templates are like feats: they can be added on to many different monsters with different Racial Hit Dice. Because of this, when a template gives a formula based on Hit Dice, like a Save DC, it is based on the creature's total Hit Dice, including class levels, unless it specifically says it only applies to Racial Hit Dice. This means that when the creature gains class levels, these abilities will increase in power.

Templates list their effect on CR and LA. In both cases this should be quite straightforward. If a template says LA --, that means the template makes the character unplayable.

Being Modified By a Class Ability

Like templates, class abilities will in general say what attributes of a monster they change, and if you're savvy enough to how monsters work you should understand how to apply them. Some class features, like the Druid's Animal Companion and the Paladin's Special Mount, gain bonus Hit Dice. As mentioned before, bonus Hit Dice do not make a creature increase in size. However, they are Racial Hit Dice. Bonus Hit Dice have whatever Features the class ability says they have, defaulting to those of the base creature's Racial Hit Dice. Some other class features like the Wizard's Familiar instead say that for purposes of effects relating to Hit Dice you should treat the creature's Hit Dice as higher. These are not actually bonus Hit Dice, and instead refer to spells, like Sleep, that have different effects on creatures with different numbers of Hit Dice.

Many class abilities say that a creature must be a normal creature of its kind. This means that a creature modified by any of the other methods in this section (including the class abilities of other classes) is not an eligible choice.

[Urpriest]

Transforming and Rolling Out
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/4193/mimicyj2.jpg
This Druid is pretending to be a Decepticon with Aberrant Wildshape.

In this section, we will discuss what happens when you manage to turn into a monster, via something like Wild Shape or Polymorph. We may also discuss a few side topics.

Shapeshifting Magic:

The rules for the various sorts of shapeshifting magic are varied and complex, and would make a whole handbook by themselves. A nice chart of the most common options is here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1415.0). In this guide, we will focus on a few common mistakes. First though, let's make sure we're all on the same page:

Wild Shape, Polymorph, and Alter Self have gotten a lot of errata. Shapeshifting abilities are some of the most powerful and confusing abilities in the game, so the people who make D&D have put in a lot of effort to limit their power and make them less confusing. If you are going to use a shapeshifting power you need to make sure you have the latest errata, or that you have access to a trustworthy online resource like d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/).

In general, a shapeshifting ability will tell you precisely what you do and do not get from it. If it doesn't say you get something, assume you don't get it. In particular, a shapeshifting ability will never give you the hit dice of the creature you are turning into, so you will never gain the features of its Racial Hit Dice, including its Base Attack Bonus, Base Save Bonuses, etc. You don't gain its feats or skill points either.

Many shapeshifting abilities are based on other abilities. Because of this, usually you can only know what an ability does by seeing what all the abilities it is based on do. For example, Wild Shape says that it functions as Alternate Form, except as noted in its description. Alternate Form then has a specific list of changes it makes. Because it's based on Alternate Form, we know that Wild Shape doesn't change the Druid's Creature Type, so an Elf Druid in the form of a Brown Bear is still an Elf. We also know that a creature that uses Alternate Form keeps its old Hit Points even if its Constitution score changes, so the same is true for a Druid in Wild Shape. (Because of this, Con is the second-most important score for a Druid, after Wis).

When a shapeshifting ability gives you the natural weapons of a form, it gives you the weapons, not the Attacks. This means your new weapons have the same damage, damage types (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing), and primary or secondary status as the creature's natural weapons, but do not have the same attack bonuses. Since you don't generally gain a monster's feats, you need to pay attention to whether its natural weapon damage is higher than normal due to the Improved Natural Attack feat.

Shapeshifting abilities often separate Special Qualities and Special Attacks. Pay attention to which section of the creature's description the ability is listed in, as well as to whether it is Extraordinary, Spell-like, or Supernatural.

Shapeshifting abilities do not automatically destroy gear. Instead, abilities will specify whether the gear falls off, resizes, or is merged into the new form. In a similar vein, most size-changing magic does not break enclosed spaces, instead the enclosure limits the creature's growth.

Usually, Shapeshifting abilities only let you turn into something average for its kind, which means that none of the modifications in the last section can apply to the creature you are shapeshifting into.

We will now discuss a few side topics.

Level-Drain Shenanigans: As was mentioned before, it's often kind of annoying to go running around with a lot of Racial Hit Dice. While some are very nice, others are quite weak, and none of them give class features like real classes do. If only there was some way to reduce your ECL by getting rid of them...

There is a very cheesy trick that can be done. If you have Racial Hit Dice and you lose a level (for example, due to failing your saves against a Wight's Energy Drain attack), you lose one of your Racial Hit Dice. The Restoration Spell says that it restores on Experience Level to a creature that has had a level drained. It does not say that the Experience must purchase a level in the same class that was lost. Because of this, some people interpret this ability to allow characters with Racial Hit Dice to lose their Racial Hit Dice and gain class levels in return. Since a monster's Level Adjustment is partially based on how powerful a character of their Hit Dice is, this can lead to very powerful creatures being accessible at lower levels. More to the point, this technique is based on a certain amount of hair-splitting silliness. Use at your own risk.


In Conclusion:

By learning about monsters, you have taken your first step to understanding the big sophisticated simulation engine that lies under what at first appears to be just rules to play a game. I hope you will continue to explore in this vein. The D&D 3.5 system may not be the best-designed or most realistic gaming system, but it is in my view one of the most intricate and beautiful.

I hope that you have learned the key lessons of this handbook. Repeat after me:

Monsters are just like me, except when they're not, and I'm a monster too!

Well done!

Mommy, Daddy, guess what? I'm a monster!

[Keld Denar]

And...now that the reserved posts are out of the way, I must say that I wholely approve of this project. As I've noticed in a previous post, so many players have NO idea what LA, HD, RHD, and ECL even mean. Please, oh defiler of the deities, impart upon the masses the wisdom of the universe.

(oh, and if you want to bounce some ideas around, PM me. I LOVE building and advancing monsters from a DM's PoV.)

[dextercorvia]

I am very happy to see this. It was much needed.

[hobbitkniver]

This is a great idea. Everyone I end up playing with insists on being something from the monster manual.

[Vemynal]

Thank you for the new handbook ^_^

[Runestar]

Just curious, where would this thread go beyond the basics of LA/ECL? I can think of so much information that can be explored, such as what niche/role monster PCs could fill, whether they are worth their ECL, how they interact with epic rules etc.

[Urpriest]

Just curious, where would this thread go beyond the basics of LA/ECL? I can think of so much information that can be explored, such as what niche/role monster PCs could fill, whether they are worth their ECL, how they interact with epic rules etc.

It's going to be very basic. So not just questions of ECL, but how the creature types work, where you look up their features, and what you get from various things (polymorph, etc.). I'm not going to pass judgement on what are good or bad choices, but there may be an addendum at the end for others' suggestions.

[begooler]

Thank you for the new addition to my bookmarks folder: Handbooks by People I Trust*

*trust defined as, 'I expect to read a handbook by this person and be blown away by life-changing and otherwise enlightening information,' though not necessarily trust as in, 'I expect to leave this person alone in a room with my delicious sandwich and expect to remain the owner of said delicious sandwich when I return from answering the doorbell.'

[Grendus]

You also may want to make a footnote entry on the differences between how 3.5 and 3.P handle LA. IIRC, Pathfinder just has you use the monsters CR as it's LA and you inherit everything about it, which is all in all much simpler (and, in all honesty, better... there are very few monstrous races with RHD worth playing).

Thanks for doing this. RHD and monster advancement were always something I had to hextuple check the rules on.

[Pokonic]

Oh, thank you, this will help alot with many players. Oh thank ye ruiner of the heavens, oh mighty smiter!

[Urpriest]

Does anyone remember the name of the person who did a natural weapons guide? I'd rather not have to cover that material as well if I can just link it.

[dextercorvia]

That was Keld and Solo. I'll dig up a link.

Edit: Here it is. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0;)

[Fax Celestis]

1. Monsters are just like you.

On this, specifically: don't forget that some monstrous races qualify for prestige classes with their racial features (marrulurks, for example have sneak attack and death attack). Also, monsters that have "cast as a sorcerer of x level" (like, say, a rakshasa) who continue to take sorcerer levels stack those levels for determining your full casting.

[dextercorvia]

On this, specifically: don't forget that some monstrous races qualify for prestige classes with their racial features (marrulurks, for example have sneak attack and death attack). Also, monsters that have "cast as a sorcerer of x level" (like, say, a rakshasa) who continue to take sorcerer levels stack those levels for determining your full casting.

Which reminds me... Could a Trumpet Archon take a level of Contemplative and advance its "cleric" casting, or does it have to have a class level first?

[maximus25]

Hooray I'm an example for a handbook.

[Hunter Killer]

Which reminds me... Could a Trumpet Archon take a level of Contemplative and advance its "cleric" casting, or does it have to have a class level first?
I don't see why it would need Cleric levels. As the Unholy One pointed out in his guide: RHD are pretty much class levels. If advancing RHD would advance casting, then I'd say a PrC should be able to advance casting for that monster.

By the way: Damn good work so far, although I have to say reading it is just a retread for me on most of this stuff... Are you planning on doing any obscure and/or non-Core things (like LABO)? That'd be helpful for some of us old-salts.

[Fax Celestis]

Could a Trumpet Archon take a level of Contemplative and advance its "cleric" casting

Yes.

Example (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20070622a).

[Glimbur]

I'm really enjoying the "take nothing for granted" approach this guide is so far showing. I am likely to link new players to this. Thanks a lot.

[Keld Denar]

Someone's already linked it, and it isn't even off the first page. Its a good guide, I hope it gets lots of use.

EDIT:

That was Keld and Solo. I'll dig up a link.

Edit: Here it is. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0;)

And I contributed! YAY!

[Fax Celestis]

Ability Score Increases: This is an example of Rule 2. Monsters gain most of what you gain from your Hit Dice, but they don't gain ability score increases every four levels like you do.
...yes they do.

When backwards-extrapolating a monster's base ability score modifiers, you subtract one from its highest ability score for every four hit dice it has. Once hit dice reach zero, subtract 10 (if even) or 11 (if odd) from the creature's remaining ability scores. The resultant numbers are the creature's racial ability modifiers.


Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases

A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

While there is a table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#abilityScoresforMonsterPCs) that can be used to determine ability scores for racial modifiers when they are less than 10, the table's primary function is to ensure that a score never drops below 1 (or 3, in the case of Intelligence), and following the regular process with some sense will result in appropriate ability scores.

Also note that creatures that include the following line

The orc warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.
would subtract the given value, rather than 10 or 11.

[Urpriest]

...yes they do.

When backwards-extrapolating a monster's base ability score modifiers, you subtract one from its highest ability score for every four hit dice it has. Once hit dice reach zero, subtract 10 (if even) or 11 (if odd) from the creature's remaining ability scores. The resultant numbers are the creature's racial ability modifiers.


Nope!

Look at the Centaur. It has Str 18 and 4 racial hit dice. Str is its highest score. Centaurs as Characters says that they get +8 Str, not +6.

Oddly enough, when monsters start gaining class levels and/or advancing in hit dice, they begin gaining ability increases at levels that are multiples of four. This can be confirmed by looking at statblocks of classed monsters. They just don't gain increases during their initial hit dice. It's a very weird rule, but I've extensively confirmed it for a large set of examples.

[Fax Celestis]

That is, quite frankly, the most ridiculous thing I have seen in this system yet. Remind me to fix that in all my games.

[dextercorvia]

Do any amount of stat blocks override the general rule that Fax cited?

[Fax Celestis]

Do any amount of stat blocks override the general rule that Fax cited?

Looks like most, if not all, of the X As Characters lines in the SRD do.

Seems to me someone went through and did all the level adjustments and X As Characters paragraphs without reading this guide first.

[Urpriest]

Do any amount of stat blocks override the general rule that Fax cited?

The rule Fax cited is for Monsters As Characters, so by default it only applies to hit dice gained after the monster manual entry. In any case, this guide isn't precisely RAW so much as it is about reverse-engineering the way WotC handles monster statblocks and demonstrating that they obey the rules. Introducing rules that aren't obeyed would be counterproductive and lead to ambiguities, especially since Fax's "look at the highest score" rule certainly isn't written anywhere.

[Fax Celestis]

Fax's "look at the highest score" rule certainly isn't written anywhere.

I could've swore it was.Maybe it's in MM-IV or some WotC article for some inexplicable reason. I'll try to find it.

EDIT: Did some searching, found another thingamajob. Depending on what book you listen to, you may be able to drop single HD from any type.

Savage Species, pg 13:

1 HIT DIE CREATURES
A creature with a single Hit Die, like all standard-race characters,
gives up that Hit Die when it gains its first class level. This
makes such a creature somewhat different from other monster
characters. In general, It is most advantageous for a 1 Hit Die
creature with a +0 level adjustment to abandon its monster Hit
Die and take class levels. While this chapter has detailed rules
for each step of character creation, this sidebar collects the
important information for dealing with 1 Hit Die creatures.
When building a monster character from a 1 Hit Die creature,
determine its ability scores and the racial modifiers to
those scores normally. Upon taking a level in a class, the creature
gains that class's base save bonuses and base attack
bonus and loses the base save bonuses and base attack bonus
it had as a monster. The new monster character gains skill
points only from class levels, losing any that it had as a result
of its monster Hit Die, but any racial bonuses on skill checks
that the base creature was entitled to are retained. Multiply the
skill points for the character's first class level by 4, just as you
would for any standard-race character. A 1 Hit Die creature may
choose one feat, just like any other 1st-level character, and it
also gains any additional feats granted by its class level. It
retains any racial bonus feats of the base creature.
On the other hand, you may wish to keep that one monster
Hit Die. If you do so, the character gets the skill points shown
on Table 2–1 or Table 2–5 (and in Appendix 2: Compiled
Tables) regardless of its Intelligence score. But in that case, you
do not multiply the skill points gained from the character's first
class level by 4, because it is not a 1st-level character. The character
gets the same number of feats as the base creature.

[dextercorvia]

The rule Fax cited is for Monsters As Characters, so by default it only applies to hit dice gained after the monster manual entry.

But, it refers to total hit dice, not hit dice from class levels, etc.

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreImprovement) is the quote that says they should be in there to begin with:


Ability Score Improvement

Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.

[Urpriest]

But, it refers to total hit dice, not hit dice from class levels, etc.

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreImprovement) is the quote that says they should be in there to begin with:

Yup, that rule is what I was referring to. Monsters gain ability increases when their hit dice increase to a multiple of four. Any increases they would have gained for their initial Racial Hit Dice are not gained, because they are already included in their base ability scores (and thus in their racial adjustments).

[dextercorvia]

So a Troll Fighter2 would get to increase an ability score? That's fine, that is what I was thinking. I thought you were saying that a Troll would have to wait until class level 4 to increase.

[Urpriest]

So a Troll Fighter2 would get to increase an ability score? That's fine, that is what I was thinking. I thought you were saying that a Troll would have to wait until class level 4 to increase.

Looks like we agree then, yeah.

[zagan]

Excellent guide that will be really useful, thank you very much for this handbook.

One thing:

Similarly, if our Vrock leveled up to Fighter 2, it would have a Character Level of 12, but its Racial Hit Dice would still be 10, so when calculating save DCs for its abilities you use its Racial Hit Dice, so the save DCs are the same as before the Fighter levels.


Are you sure on that ? I always though that the DC of the abilities progress with all hit dice, racial or class level.
It's a rule from somwhere in the MM or did backward enginered it ?

[Urpriest]

Excellent guide that will be really useful, thank you very much for this handbook.

One thing:


Are you sure on that ? I always though that the DC of the abilities progress with all hit dice, racial or class level.
It's a rule from somwhere in the MM or did backward enginered it ?

It's probably a rule from somewhere, but it's most straightforward to see by reverse engineering. The Aboleth Mage, for example, has a save DC for its Slime and Mucus Cloud of 21, two higher than the 19 of the default Aboleth, because of its Con being four points higher, and despite having ten more hit dice.

[dextercorvia]

Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm) is the general rule:


When a special ability allows a saving throw, the kind of save and the save DC is noted in the descriptive text. Most saving throws against special abilities have DCs calculated as follows:

10 + ½ the attacker’s racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifier.


So, unless the monster description specifies otherwise, you only use RHD.

[Keld Denar]

What about a creature that doesn't have RHD? A Gravetouched Ghoul, for example, has Ghoul Paralysis, but no Ghoul HD. The description of GTG just says 10 + 1/2 GTG's HD + Cha. I'd assume in this case they are refering to non-racial HD? Then again, most other creature's just reference "monster X's HD" in a similar fashion.

What if the GTG has racial HD from another race before becoming a GTG? What if he was a Minotaur first (6 RHD worth of Monstrous Humanoid).

[dextercorvia]

I think that, as a template, it is referring to the total HD of the GTG. This is the same argument that has it change all class HD to d12's.

[Fax Celestis]

I could've swore it was.Maybe it's in MM-IV or some WotC article for some inexplicable reason. I'll try to find it.

Figured it out. I'm an idiot and was thinking of something a group of mine uses when making monstrous racial classes with LA +0 bases.

[zagan]

It's probably a rule from somewhere, but it's most straightforward to see by reverse engineering. The Aboleth Mage, for example, has a save DC for its Slime and Mucus Cloud of 21, two higher than the 19 of the default Aboleth, because of its Con being four points higher, and despite having ten more hit dice.


Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm) is the general rule:
So, unless the monster description specifies otherwise, you only use RHD.

Never knew that, you learn something everyday.
It make the abilities of monster even less useful for player.

[Coidzor]

well, I certainly approve of the use of Pimp Krusk in a handbook. :smallamused:

And this one is a good read to boot. :smallbiggrin:

[Necroticplague]

Under Nonabilities, you may want to note that permanently incorporeal creatures have strength scores as a nonability.

[SleepyBadger]

Never knew that, you learn something everyday.
It make the abilities of monster even less useful for player.
Me neither, but it's an important detail for me.
Urpriest, thanks for this guide, will be immensely useful :smallsmile:

[Thurbane]

Nice handbook - a lot of good advice for players new to playing RHD/LA characters.

Are you going to touch on the cheesetastic notion of allowing permanent level drain to get rid of RHD (especially problematic when combined with LA buyoff)? It's something I would never let fly in any game I ran, but a lot of people seem to consider it fair game...

[NecroRick]

I like how you point out that humans are not animals, you should do so also for vermin.

maybe an example using charm animal, charm person and charm monster?

[Kojiro]

This is very, very great; helped me out a ton, despite it not even being finished yet. Heck, probably the most helpful handbook I've read yet (although, admittedly, I've read, like, four); going to show it to a friend who's also going to be DMing soon.

Out of curiosity, though, is there any way to handle a player wanting to be a somewhat "nonstandard" creature (http://threepanelsoul.com/2009/07/07/on-monster-manuals/) (one with LA: --)? As a hypothetical situation, of course.

[Volthawk]

Out of curiosity, though, is there any way to handle a player wanting to be a somewhat "nonstandard" creature (http://threepanelsoul.com/2009/07/07/on-monster-manuals/) (one with LA: --)? As a hypothetical situation, of course.

Well, there are the homebrew Improved Monster Classes on the homebrew forums. The last big thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192151), after the mods stopped it due to disagreements on how it would be run, people split into their own threads, looking around the homebrew forums can find them, but the big thread has quite a lot of the monster classes, and also the guidelines that were used for the classes.

[zagan]

I was rereading an I have another question.


[CENTER]
Now you may notice that none of this says what class skills they get. Class skills are different for every monster. More specifically, All of the Skills in the Monster's "Skills:" Entry Are Class Skills.

Looking at the Vrock, we see that under Skills: it lists bonuses to Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge(any one), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, and Survival. These then are its class skills. Notice that some of these skills, like Survival, are just equal to the monster's ability score modifier, and don't have skill points in them. These skills are still class skills, because they are still in the Skills: section of the monster's description.

Because some skill give synergy bonus does this mean that if a monster gain a synergy bonus in one or more skill those skills automatically become class skills ?
For example a monster with 5 ranks in bluff automatically as diplomacy, disguise, intimidate and sleight of hand as class skills ? Particular if when calculating the bonus you realise that it's just the result of the synergy bonus plus the ability modifier ?

[TroubleBrewing]

This is really, really useful. I've got a friend who used to be in our party, but now DMs his own group that constantly screws this stuff up for his players.

[Urpriest]

I was rereading an I have another question.



Because some skill give synergy bonus does this mean that if a monster gain a synergy bonus in one or more skill those skills automatically become class skills ?
For example a monster with 5 ranks in bluff automatically as diplomacy, disguise, intimidate and sleight of hand as class skills ? Particular if when calculating the bonus you realise that it's just the result of the synergy bonus plus the ability modifier ?

Yup! It's weird, but Nymphs do in fact get Use Rope as a class skill, for example.

Edit: Actually, this appear to be wrong! Details to follow once I gather some examples. At the very least, the Satyr is a counterexample.

[Yora]

This thread is relevant to my interests.

I'm really enjoying the "take nothing for granted" approach this guide is so far showing. I am likely to link new players to this. Thanks a lot.
Useful for experienced players as well. There are actually quite a few misconceptions that almost everyone believes because they are easy mistakes to make and nobody ever checks if it actually works that way.

[Urpriest]

Speaking of, the way monsters handle class skills appears to be inconsistent!

Several monsters statted up as races lack skills listed in their statblock as class skills, for example the Satyr with Bluff synergy skills. Others have class skills that aren't listed anywhere else in their statblocks, like the Minotaur with Jump. And there are plenty of examples of creatures that really do have skills as class skills even though they only get bonuses to the skill via feats (Unicorn) or synergy (Lammasu). The situation is ambiguous! As such I'm going to end up suggesting "every skill in the description" as a general rule for when there isn't an explicitly different way to do it.

[zagan]

Speaking of, the way monsters handle class skills appears to be inconsistent!

Several monsters statted up as races lack skills listed in their statblock as class skills, for example the Satyr with Bluff synergy skills. Others have class skills that aren't listed anywhere else in their statblocks, like the Minotaur with Jump. And there are plenty of examples of creatures that really do have skills as class skills even though they only get bonuses to the skill via feats (Unicorn) or synergy (Lammasu). The situation is ambiguous! As such I'm going to end up suggesting "every skill in the description" as a general rule for when there isn't an explicitly different way to do it.

Yes, it's probably the easiest way to do it even if it's not really logical. Thanks.

[Necroticplague]

I don't think synergy bonuses are listed , thus making things a skill. I always thought of it as "things in their statblock." I'm not quite sure I worded that coherently, so I'll use an example with one of my favorite creatures: The protean.

In its stat block Under "skills", we see that it has bluff +59. If we reverse engineer this to see how many skill points it has in bluff, we do 59(its total bonus)-12(bonus from very high CHA)=47 (and I make a silent cheer as I realize all of bluff's synergies move outward). So it put 47 ranks in Bluff (the limit for its 44 HD). Having 5 or more ranks in Bluff gives a +2 to sleight of hand. So, while not listed, a protean has a bonus on sleight of hand checks of +15 (+2 synergy, +13 high Dex). However, this is not listed on their statblock. I assume this is because they do not have sleight of hand as a class skill, even though they have bonuses to it.

[Urpriest]

I don't think synergy bonuses are listed , thus making things a skill. I always thought of it as "things in their statblock." I'm not quite sure I worded that coherently, so I'll use an example with one of my favorite creatures: The protean.

In its stat block Under "skills", we see that it has bluff +59. If we reverse engineer this to see how many skill points it has in bluff, we do 59(its total bonus)-12(bonus from very high CHA)=47 (and I make a silent cheer as I realize all of bluff's synergies move outward). So it put 47 ranks in Bluff (the limit for its 44 HD). Having 5 or more ranks in Bluff gives a +2 to sleight of hand. So, while not listed, a protean has a bonus on sleight of hand checks of +15 (+2 synergy, +13 high Dex). However, this is not listed on their statblock. I assume this is because they do not have sleight of hand as a class skill, even though they have bonuses to it.

Actually, I'm fairly certain Slight of Hand is trained-only. That said, look at the Lammasu. The Lammasu's Diplomacy bonus is pure synergy, and yet the advanced Lammasu has level+3 ranks. The Unicorn is another example, with only Skill Focus(Survival) but no ranks, yet being able to raise it to max ranks despite only gaining unicorn and cleric hit dice. Edit: Also the Doppleganger.

[Necroticplague]

Actually, I'm fairly certain Slight of Hand is trained-only. That said, look at the Lammasu. The Lammasu's Diplomacy bonus is pure synergy, and yet the advanced Lammasu has level+3 ranks. The Unicorn is another example, with only Skill Focus(Survival) but no ranks, yet being able to raise it to max ranks despite only gaining unicorn and cleric hit dice. Edit: Also the Doppleganger.

D'oh, your right about Sleight of Hand being trained only. I can't really tell whether we are in agreement or disagreement here, so I'll try rewording for accuracy and using your example:

"Any skill that actually appears in the statblock, regardless of where bonuses to it come from or whether it actually put any points into that skill, is a class skill."

Now for your Lammasu example: The base example gets 5 skill points per level (magical beast 2 +3 int bonus). So it can "max out" five skills. In its skill section, we see that it does (concentration, knowledge(arcana), listen, sense motive, and spot). However, it also lists diplomacy, which it has no points in. So (at least I think), thise means it has six class skills (concentration,diplomacy, knowledge(arcana), listen, sense motive, and spot), but not enough skill points to put points in one of them (diplomacy). Now, for the "advanced lammasu" (I assume you mean the golden protector), WotC realized that it would gain a heck of a lot more skill points than before (dragon HD gives 6+4 from boosted int). So, instead of giving it ranks in skills cross-class, they gave it more class skills until it had enough skills for its skill points (adding survival, spellcraft, knowledge(the planes), search). So, a "golden protector" actually counts as an entirely different monster for advancing it, seeing how the dragon hit dice has better HD (d12), more skill points, better saves and BAB (all good, full), and this creature in specific seems to have more class skills.

[Urpriest]

Blargh, you're right, they expanded its class skills for no justified reason. It isn't all that different from the Minotaur really, that has Jump as a class skill despite it never appearing in the statblock. Anyway, the Doppleganger is apparently a better example of a synergy bonus giving rise to a class skill.

What all this illustrates is that class skills are an idiosyncratic business. Since the only rule we have to go on is the "every skill in its statblock" rule, that's what I'll be using.

[Groverfield]

Really well put together and understandable. I wish I didn't already know all of this so I could learn it earlier.

Reserve Post #5 you can use to explain racial class levels (like those of Savage Species.) I had to explain to my DM that the progressive template for Draconic Creature to Dragon in RoD did not provide Hit Dice, and thus no HP, BaB, skills or Saves advancements, and maybe a system to divide racial classes for the monster races that don't have one, or it's poorly done (not giving all of the racial features, forcing the 1 Racial HD creatures to take that RHD, ect.)

[Urpriest]

Really well put together and understandable. I wish I didn't already know all of this so I could learn it earlier.

Reserve Post #5 you can use to explain racial class levels (like those of Savage Species.) I had to explain to my DM that the progressive template for Draconic Creature to Dragon in RoD did not provide Hit Dice, and thus no HP, BaB, skills or Saves advancements, and maybe a system to divide racial classes for the monster races that don't have one, or it's poorly done (not giving all of the racial features, forcing the 1 Racial HD creatures to take that RHD, ect.)

Actually, I've already included those classes in the Myth #1: Savage Species Will Save the Day! Section. The fifth post is going to be advice about shapeshifting (mostly emphasizing that hit dice aren't gained), as well as a few topics germane to monsters suggested by the community (for example, I might put the level draining hit dice trick there).

[Fizban]

Go Urpriest! Instead of staying up correcting someone who's wrong on the internet, I instead stayed up and watched someone else do the correcting :smallbiggrin:

I have minor disagreements with two things: I could swear I've read an official ruling that says you can in fact counterspell with spell-like abilities (though it may have been that you could only counterspell that specific ability with itself), and I feel that when you say that the level adjustment is what pays for the features of your racial hit dice, you should also mention that it pays for your cool monster abilities and large stat bonuses. It should be fairly obvious, but as they say on the first page: this guide assumes nothing.

(And if these have already been addressed, well mnyeh. It's 7am and I can't be arsed to read the whole thread, I need to sleep:smalltongue:)

Edit: oh hey, mention of shapeshifting secition. I assume you will address how the spells refer to special attacks and special abilities separately? And of course the differences between standard errata'd polymorph, the new subschool spells, and the poser spells like Displacer Form that give a set of adjustments and a cosmetic change. Might be worth linking another guide for all that. If you haven't done so when I check back in then I'll try and dig it out of my bookmarks.

[Urpriest]

Go Urpriest! Instead of staying up correcting someone who's wrong on the internet, I instead stayed up and watched someone else do the correcting :smallbiggrin:

I have minor disagreements with two things: I could swear I've read an official ruling that says you can in fact counterspell with spell-like abilities (though it may have been that you could only counterspell that specific ability with itself), and I feel that when you say that the level adjustment is what pays for the features of your racial hit dice, you should also mention that it pays for your cool monster abilities and large stat bonuses. It should be fairly obvious, but as they say on the first page: this guide assumes nothing.

(And if these have already been addressed, well mnyeh. It's 7am and I can't be arsed to read the whole thread, I need to sleep:smalltongue:)

For that first, the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) is very explicit:

Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

For the second, I agree, that's relevant. The only reason I emphasize the features at that point is because I've just spent a while listing how cool they are.

[Cieyrin]

I have minor disagreements with two things: I could swear I've read an official ruling that says you can in fact counterspell with spell-like abilities (though it may have been that you could only counterspell that specific ability with itself)

An addendum to what Urpriest said, in that Dispel Magic and spells derived from it have a specific Counterspell function, which in this case is a Specific rule that overrides the General rule. There was a thread about it that talked about this a couple weeks ago discussing that point at length and I'm fairly sure that was the general consensus, given the Warlock Invocations that mimic Dispel Magic seem to have been assumed to work that way.

Also, I must say I approve for having something that's eminently clear where many of the MMs and other monster sources are fairly not so much. Bravo, sir, bravo! :smallcool:

[sreservoir]

do note, (cohort) is actually meaningless -- it says that the monster in question is suited to be a cohort, not unsuited to being a player character, mostly because of size and lack of opposable thumbs, iirc. nothing prevents playing them, although it might be somewhat difficult.

[Urpriest]

do note, (cohort) is actually meaningless -- it says that the monster in question is suited to be a cohort, not unsuited to being a player character, mostly because of size and lack of opposable thumbs, iirc. nothing prevents playing them, although it might be somewhat difficult.

There may be no explicit rule, but every section that describes what that annotation means specifies that creatures with it are normally not suitable as player characters.

On that note, Handbook Complete! I'll be looking through the suggestions already on this thread to see what I've missed. Feel free to suggest and critique, especially in terms of material for the Transforming and Rolling Out section.

[Cieyrin]

Handbook Complete!

*glee* :smallwink:

I do have a question on templates though, as you say that total HD is used for determining abilities granted for those templates that do such. My question is if this only applies when you get the template or whether you gain new features from the template as you advance in HD?

Take Feral for example. When a character hits the next break point, does it automatically get Pounce?

[Necroticplague]

*glee* :smallwink:

I do have a question on templates though, as you say that total HD is used for determining abilities granted for those templates that do such. My question is if this only applies when you get the template or whether you gain new features from the template as you advance in HD?

Take Feral for example. When a character hits the next break point, does it automatically get Pounce?

Generally, it means those abilities scale. Do note that feral only counts rhd, though.

[Cieyrin]

Generally, it means those abilities scale. Do note that feral only counts rhd, though.

I'm looking at the template, it just says HD, not racial, unless it got errata'd at some point.

[Keld Denar]

Well done, Urpriest. Thanks for mentioning my guide in your guide.

I have a few advanced statblocks I've made, if you are interested. I have a CR6 huge Gelatinous Cube and a couple of CR2 advanced Spellwarped Pseudonatural Bombardeer Beetles. I'm working on a few others, I can post at a later point.

[Necroticplague]

I'm looking at the template, it just says HD, not racial, unless it got errata'd at some point.

"It gains special attacks indicated at the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice," So at least the RAWest way of looking at it, it gains special attacks based on RHD, and special qualities based on all HD.

[Cieyrin]

"It gains special attacks indicated at the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice," So at least the RAWest way of looking at it, it gains special attacks based on RHD, and special qualities based on all HD.

Missed that line. Whoops. :smallredface:

[Urpriest]

*glee* :smallwink:

I do have a question on templates though, as you say that total HD is used for determining abilities granted for those templates that do such. My question is if this only applies when you get the template or whether you gain new features from the template as you advance in HD?

Take Feral for example. When a character hits the next break point, does it automatically get Pounce?

Clarified that matter in the guide. Thanks for pointing it out.


Well done, Urpriest. Thanks for mentioning my guide in your guide.

I have a few advanced statblocks I've made, if you are interested. I have a CR6 huge Gelatinous Cube and a couple of CR2 advanced Spellwarped Pseudonatural Bombardeer Beetles. I'm working on a few others, I can post at a later point.

While a bunch of monster statblocks would probably be excessive, I could see one or two particularly inventive ones finding a home in the Roll Out section.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Quote on the not gaining ability score increases? Similarly for the not using the size table for the stat bonuses. (keep in mind that enlarge person is a specific trumping general and is actually a crappy way to gain size)

You should explain both my ECL variant and my '-- templates for PCs only' discussion for why monsters should never be given PC class levels by the DM.

All in all a nice nooby-friendly guide even if a lot of exceptions are not m

[Urpriest]

Quote on the not gaining ability score increases? Similarly for the not using the size table for the stat bonuses. (keep in mind that enlarge person is a specific trumping general and is actually a crappy way to gain size)

You should explain both my ECL variant and my '-- templates for PCs only' discussion for why monsters should never be given PC class levels by the DM.

All in all a nice nooby-friendly guide even if a lot of exceptions are not m

For size, the Adding a Template Step By Step section (unfortunately appears to be absent from the SRD) says that only natural armor and basic size bonuses are automatic, and that a template will say whether or not you apply size modifiers, as they may be factored in to the ability scores already.

For ability scores, Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeandType). In particular,

Ability Score Improvement

Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.

I'm not familiar with your ECL variant, but if it's described approachably in the link in your sig I might put mention of it in the Roll Out section. I will not mention your idea that monsters should never be given PC class levels because it is an abomination unto everything this guide stands for (and not the fun kind of abomination), and few to no playgrounders think that besides you. Monsters are just like you!

[Keld Denar]

J E L L O! ITS ALIVE!

Advanced Gelatinous Cube
Size: Huge
HD: 16d10+144 (232 hp)
Initiative: -5
Speed: 15 ft
AC: 1, Touch 1, Flat 1)
BAB/Grab: +12/+20
Attack: Slam +10 (1d6+1d6 Acid)
Full Attack: Slam +10 (1d6+1d6 Acid)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Acid, Engulf, Paralysis
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60’, Immune to Electricity, Ooze Traits, Transparent
Saves: F+13 R+0 W+0
Abilities: Str 10 Dex - Con 29 Int - Wis 1 Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
CR: 6

Acid (Ex)
A gelatinous cube’s acid does not harm metal or stone.
Engulf (Ex)
Although it moves slowly, a gelatinous cube can simply mow down Large or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The gelatinous cube merely has to move over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the cube, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC 19 Reflex save or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the cube moves forward. Engulfed creatures are subject to the cube’s paralysis and acid, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is Strength-based and includes a +1 racial bonus.
Paralysis (Ex)
A gelatinous cube secretes an anesthetizing slime. A target hit by a cube’s melee or engulf attack must succeed on a DC 27 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 3d6 rounds. The cube can automatically engulf a paralyzed opponent. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Transparent (Ex)
Gelatinous cubes are hard to see, even under ideal conditions, and it takes a DC 15 Spot check to notice one. Creatures who fail to notice a cube and walk into it are automatically engulfed.

[zagan]

One thing of note for shapeshifting magic, you do not gain the creature feat and a fair number of monster (notably animal) have the improved natural attack feat so you need to remove it's benefit to obtain the damage dealt by the natural weapon you gain this way. This apply to other feat as well, improved critical come to mind.

[Urpriest]

One thing of note for shapeshifting magic, you do not gain the creature feat and a fair number of monster (notably animal) have the improved natural attack feat so you need to remove it's benefit to obtain the damage dealt by the natural weapon you gain this way. This apply to other feat as well, improved critical come to mind.

That's an important point. Though I'm not sure Improved Critical is usually factored in to the Attack: line.

@Keld: Could you provide some analysis about why this particular example of advancement is interesting/a brief explanation of what you did? If it's around for educational purposes it should be accompanied by some explanation.

[zagan]

I've found an example of monster with improve critical, the elder earth elmental and the change is indicated in the stat block.
I can't think of any other feat that would directly modify a natural attack but perhaps there's more somewhere.
In any case I'm glad I could help, again great work.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

That 'Adding a Template Step By Step' section is actually MM1 291. It is poorly written, referencing things that do not exist the way they say they do even after three patches of errata. Good thing it doesn't overwrite or contradict the other rules.

For ability scores, the HD advancement part does give stat boosts. Also when reverse-engineering lower HD versions of races the built-in stat boosts from the RHD are taken into account.

About my idea that monsters should never be given PC class levels being an abomination unto everything this guide stands for I hope that your DMs throw my Codzilla build at you ;)

My balanced ECL variant (so you can actually play high ECL creatures) is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11132633#post11132633). I would put it in my sig but that has already been edited, etc enough that I'm not going to touch it lest the mo

[Runestar]

I have minor disagreements with two things: I could swear I've read an official ruling that says you can in fact counterspell with spell-like abilities (though it may have been that you could only counterspell that specific ability with itself), and I feel that when you say that the level adjustment is what pays for the features of your racial hit dice, you should also mention that it pays for your cool monster abilities and large stat bonuses. It should be fairly obvious, but as they say on the first page: this guide assumes nothing.

I believe you are referring to this article here.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040420a

More specifically, this clause here.

A spell-like ability cannot be used as a counterspell, and it is not subject to counterspells. A counterspell involves recognizing a spell as it is being cast, then quickly altering that same spell so as to create an opposite effect that cancels out the original spell. A spell-like ability is essentially hardwired into its user's psyche, and its power is released mentally. The process is sufficiently different from spellcasting so it that doesn't allow a foe to identify the spell-like ability, and a counterspell cannot interfere with the spell-like ability's magical energy as it can with a spell. As noted earlier, a spell-like ability is subject to dispelling (provided the spell it duplicates is subject to dispelling). When a spell-like ability can be dispelled (as most of them are) one can effectively counter them with a dispel magic spell. While spell-like abilities are not normally subject to counterspells, dispel magic is not really a counterspell. When you use dispel magic as a counterspell, what you're really doing is casting a quick, targeted dispel effect at the correct moment to negate the enemy spell and not creating an opposite magical effect that cancels your enemy's spell.

So it is in fact suggesting that if a monster had dispel magic as a SLA, he could in fact use it to counterspell. Make of it what you will.

[Urpriest]

That 'Adding a Template Step By Step' section is actually MM1 291. It is poorly written, referencing things that do not exist the way they say they do even after three patches of errata. Good thing it doesn't overwrite or contradict the other rules.

For ability scores, the HD advancement part does give stat boosts. Also when reverse-engineering lower HD versions of races the built-in stat boosts from the RHD are taken into account.

About my idea that monsters should never be given PC class levels being an abomination unto everything this guide stands for I hope that your DMs throw my Codzilla build at you ;)

My balanced ECL variant (so you can actually play high ECL creatures) is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11132633#post11132633). I would put it in my sig but that has already been edited, etc enough that I'm not going to touch it lest the mo

That part of the Adding a Template section is indeed consistent with other rules, as far as I can see.

HD advancement does indeed give stat boosts. In fact, the guide's wording on the subject was thought to be ambiguous, as was discussed earlier in the thread. Do you still find the language unclear? I've tried to edit it to be abundantly clear that the original RHD do not give stat boosts, but later advancement of HD does. Is there a particular section you find poorly worded?

Edit: As to your ECL variant, there's some bad wording there (no race that I am aware of has spellcasting related to its racial hit dice, sans variants a level-drained Rakshasa still has its full Sorceror casting), but the basic rule is simple enough. Almost too simple...

Edit Edit: Is the HD in the formula intended to be total or racial? If the latter, you do realize your formula gives free templates for all, right? If the former, you're throwing off the entire experience chart.

[Fax Celestis]

While a bunch of monster statblocks would probably be excessive, I could see one or two particularly inventive ones finding a home in the Roll Out section.

Could just link this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166393) and others like it.

I'd link this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313) too, but I'm biased.

[Zombimode]

Hm, I have one remaining question. Maybe I have missed it somewhere.

If a monster has a spell-like ability and that spells effect varies according to caster level (like the damage of a fireball), how is the monsters caster level determined?

[Urpriest]

Hm, I have one remaining question. Maybe I have missed it somewhere.

If a monster has a spell-like ability and that spells effect varies according to caster level (like the damage of a fireball), how is the monsters caster level determined?

It's always in the entry. But I should mention that.

Edit: when it isn't, it defaults to Hit Dice.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

That part of the Adding a Template section is indeed consistent with other rules, as far as I can see.

HD advancement does indeed give stat boosts. In fact, the guide's wording on the subject was thought to be ambiguous, as was discussed earlier in the thread. Do you still find the language unclear? I've tried to edit it to be abundantly clear that the original RHD do not give stat boosts, but later advancement of HD does. Is there a particular section you find poorly worded?

Edit: As to your ECL variant, there's some bad wording there (no race that I am aware of has spellcasting related to its racial hit dice, sans variants a level-drained Rakshasa still has its full Sorceror casting), but the basic rule is simple enough. Almost too simple...

Edit Edit: Is the HD in the formula intended to be total or racial? If the latter, you do realize your formula gives free templates for all, right? If the former, you're throwing off the entire experience chart.in order:

"A size increase affects any special ability the creature has that is affected by size. Increased size also affects a creature’s ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage values as indicated on the tables below." I swear I point this out in every 'size' thread. Though I'll admit once a GitP poster beat me to it.

"but they don't gain ability score increases every four levels like you do." They do but they don't gain it from their 'base' RHD twice, since it is already included in their statblock

Its racial. I had it all say RHD but people always asked, "I know what HD are but what is RHD?" I got sick of answering. You can see in the sixth and seventh rule where I got lazy. I'll at the 'R's for you below.

I can't find that wording but it does sound like my babble for common sense rule 1 :) I'll requote it so you see what I see. But I'll go ahead and clean it up again anyways:


ECL = Floor[RHD/2 - Racial LA] + Total LA + Class levels
(with common sense restrictions)
0) This variant is done on a character by character basis. Some in the party might use this but, not all must. This is why its a 'variant' and is actually useful.

1) If a race has racial spellcasting related to its racial HD, remove that abilities racial power source up to it's RHD. For instance a psychic Illithid would have no psuedo psion levels but a Spellweaver would still have 2 psuedo sorcerer levels. Remember that this variant is done in a character by character basis allowing a psionic illithid to not use this variant while a spellweaver in the party may chose it.

2) BAB may not exceed ECL and RHD's BAB may not be used for prereqs. This makes the RHD's BAB feel like a "practiced BAB" feat since it adds for future, non-BAB-progressing class levels. This obviously stops BAB from exceeding 20 pre-epic. It turns out this doesn't really matter much even if the 21 and 26th BAB gave more iterations. Astute DM's will notice that the ability to hit things a few more times, or even enter non-caster classes early (as casters already do with reckless abandon) is actually a boon to their game's balance. Even if initially counter-intuitive DMs are encouraged to waive this restriction.

3) Skill points from racial HD do not allow a character to exceed the normal 3+ECL max since the HD no longer count towards the ECL. For most cases, this is surprisingly not that needed of a restriction considering the other RAW ways to exceed this cap. Therefore, DMs are encouraged to waive this restriction

4) Skill points for the first level are not added twice. A character with aberration/construct/elemental/giant/humanoid/magic beast/monstrous humanoid/ooze/plant racial HD and one class level may must use the crappy 4x(2+int) for their starting skill point allotment rather than chose their lovely 4x(8+int) rogue class levels as the starting skill points. DMs are encouraged to waive this restriction

5) The racial HD does not get con bonus to HP as class levels do. DMs are encouraged to waive this restriction if they want PCs with above average amounts of HP since HP is way too low compared to the damage both PCs and Monsters can receive anyways.

6) Natural healing rate is based off of ECL and so is not affected by the free racial HD, though this might seem a bit counter intuitive. If you want the RHD to help, it shouldn't make much of a difference, so DMs are encouraged to waive this restriction for any players not abusing natural healing rates. Heck, even if they are they will still be screwed by SoDs.

7) Per level option of LA or RHD counting towards the required level for buyoff. This makes buyoffs happen a bit earlier, which in turn helps the 99% of monsters with over-inflated LAs become playable. It goes without saying that players who use restoration cheese need a single iteration cap on each buyoff tier's level per LA row in the chart.

Keep in mind that I am redefining what ECL is, so it in fact uses the experience table normal per the newly defined ECL. You just have extra HD or what not, like a party with a warforged bard who likes to keep his allies ready to fight even at night with his inspire cou

[Urpriest]

in order:

"A size increase affects any special ability the creature has that is affected by size. Increased size also affects a creature’s ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage values as indicated on the tables below." I swear I point this out in every 'size' thread. Though I'll admit once a GitP poster beat me to it.

There are two possible answers to this, the one I would deploy to the people this thread is targeted to, and the one I would deploy to Curmudgeon. You may choose:
1. That section refers to size increases gained from advancing hit dice, as the sentence before it shows.
2. "A size increase" increase is a nouning of a verb. Therefore it does not refer to the normal definition of the word (since it would be an improper usage if so), but rather a game term. The game term "size increase" is defined in the previous sentence as that which happens when a monster advances in hit dice.


"but they don't gain ability score increases every four levels like you do." They do but they don't gain it from their 'base' RHD twice, since it is already included in their statblock

Are you claiming they gain it from their 'base' RHD once? Since by your own admission it's already included in their statblock (and hence their racial bonuses, unless you have a source for Fax's rule), I don't see how this could ever come up. Or is this merely a technical point? If so I concede your point, but I believe that mentioning it would only add confusion.


Its racial. I had it all say RHD but people always asked, "I know what HD are but what is RHD?" I got sick of answering. You can see in the sixth and seventh rule where I got lazy. I'll at the 'R's for you below.

I can't find that wording but it does sound like my babble for common sense rule 1 :) I'll requote it so you see what I see:



Keep in mind that I am redefining what ECL is, so it in fact uses the experience table normal per the newly defined ECL. You just have extra HD or what not, like a party with a warforged bard who likes to keep his allies ready to fight even at night with his inspire cou

Could you explain what you mean by Floor then? Normally Floor simply rounds down to the next lowest integer, do you intend to round to the next lowest natural number?

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Take a look back at my post. You were speedier than I realized. I was still making things pretty for you :smallwink:

Again in order. The size part discussion is sounding like semantics. 1) the previous sentence is a different paragraph or atleast has a break 2) dictionary.com lists 3 entries for increase as a noun. But really I'd say that my interpretation is better (since that's the argument) because A) it makes sense. Bigger things being stronger and tougher but less agile, B) it adds depth to the game C) it easily helps melees (although admittedly it can help cunning min-maxed casters) D) it makes the game make less sense when certain size-granting templates follow the above logic but others don't, ie. you are bigger now so you should therefore be stronger and tougher but less agile -- but only if you get bigger this way E) many templates mention the size table as if the player should already know to be using it: "a size increase also changes the following:" I know of no examples that do the opposite: aka 'this template is special in that it gives you the size modifiers too'

phew. I hope you appreciate the lengths here.

Yes I mentioned that many exceptions are not given in this thread. Reversing HD and subtracting stat bonus gains from RHD is the only time you'd need to worry about what's included in the statblock.

"Normally Floor simply rounds down to the next lowest integer" That would be how I am using it too. If you need some examples I can show you more than just this one that no one would ever play non-level drained without my balance ECL variant:

Bugbear (3RHD, 1LA): ECL = Floor[3/2 - 1] + (1) + (Class levels)
ECL = Floor[1.5 - 1] + 1 + Class levels
ECL = Floor[.5] + 1 + Class levels
ECL = (0) + (1) + (Class levels)
ECL = 1 + Class levels

this essentially means those 3RHD are 'free' but the LA still has to be bought off. Not bad for six stat point boosts. Almost enough to make you not sad you are an ugly bear gobl

[Urpriest]

Take a look back at my post. You were speedier than I realized. I was still making things pretty for you :smallwink:

Again in order. The size part discussion is sounding like semantics. 1) the previous sentence is a different paragraph or atleast has a break 2) dictionary.com lists 3 entries for increase as a noun. But really I'd say that my interpretation is better (since that's the argument) because A) it makes sense. Bigger things being stronger and tougher but less agile, B) it adds depth to the game C) it easily helps melees (although admittedly it can help cunning min-maxed casters) D) it makes the game make less sense when certain size-granting templates follow the above logic but others don't, ie. you are bigger now so you should therefore be stronger and tougher but less agile -- but only if you get bigger this way E) many templates mention the size table as if the player should already know to be using it: "a size increase also changes the following:" I know of no examples that do the opposite: aka 'this template is special in that it gives you the size modifiers too'

phew. I hope you appreciate the lengths here.

Yes I mentioned that many exceptions are not given in this thread. Reversing HD and subtracting stat bonus gains from RHD is the only time you'd need to worry about what's included in the statblock.

"Normally Floor simply rounds down to the next lowest integer" That would be how I am using it too. If you need some examples I can show you more than just this one that no one would ever play non-level drained without my balance ECL variant:

Bugbear (3RHD, 1LA): ECL = Floor[3/2 - 1] + (1) + (Class levels)
ECL = Floor[1.5 - 1] + 1 + Class levels
ECL = Floor[.5] + 1 + Class levels
ECL = (0) + (1) + (Class levels)
ECL = 1 + Class levels

this essentially means those 3RHD are 'free' but the LA still has to be bought off. Not bad for six stat point boosts. Almost enough to make you not sad you are an ugly bear gobl

In reverse order, because it's late and I'm odd:

Ugly bear goblins are awesome and should never be sad. :smallbiggrin:

However, here's the issue: say I have no RHD. Say I'm a Vampire. Your formula gives:
ECL = Floor[0-8] + (8) + (Class levels)
ECL = Floor[-8] + (8) + (Class levels)
ECL = (-8) + (8) +(Class levels)
ECL = (Class levels)
ECL = I am now a Vampire absolutely for free. Also, any other template.

Is that intentional?

Reversing HD...like with level drain? While I suppose that could happen, there's no way to figure out which abilities you added your boosts to. Much as I love technically impossible to apply rules, they don't fit the audience of this guide.

Examples and/or Counterexamples for size increasing templates are hard. MMII is a 3.0 source, and hence built under a somewhat different monster building regimen, but has Titanic give +36 Str to a toad, not the +70 that your method would indicate. I'm looking for a 3.5 example now.

Edit: Actually, aren't many of the Lycanthropes viable examples? Many change the creature's size from Medium to Large, and yet give only the ability increases mentioned in the template.

EditEdit: On the other hand, Half-Goristro seems to be a legitimate counterexample. On the other other hand, it explicitly states that all of the modifiers in that table are included. I feel like that guy from Fiddler on the Roof.

Basically: find me an example of a template that increases size and doesn't explicitly instruct the user to follow the table, yet includes that ability increase. If you're arguing that it should apply for things that aren't templates (spells etc.) then a single example of a statblock containing such will do. Otherwise I stand by my claim that it should be explicitly mentioned either way, defaulting to not applying.

[sreservoir]

floor(rhd/2-la)+la is, when dealing with real integers la, identical to floor(rhd/2). I do hope you have a real integer there.

[Urpriest]

floor(rhd/2-la)+la is, when dealing with real integers la, identical to floor(rhd/2). I do hope you have a real integer there.

To anticipate the reply:

I have a few tricks over on BG that can get you complex-valued LA. Unfortunately the mo

[sreservoir]

To anticipate the reply:

merely complex would still be identical if both parts are integral, though floor might choke a bit depending on your definitions of "integer" and "less"; you'd need non-integers to actually get different answers.

I hope you're not dealing with fractional level adjustments.

[Urpriest]

merely complex would still be identical if both parts are integral, though floor might choke a bit depending on your definitions of "integer" and "less"; you'd need non-integers to actually get different answers.

I hope you're not dealing with fractional level adjustments.

Oh yes quite. Sorry, too much QFT to see the obvious allusion. And hey, I could actually imagine PlzBreakMyCampAn finding a way to get a fractional LA. Complex otoh is hyperbole.

[sreservoir]

I think I recall a thread somewhere about fractional levels or some such, though I don't remember whether it was actual rule absurdities or merely hypothetical.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

sresevoir noticed my redundancy. I suppose the similar left, middle, format of the normal ecl formula got picked up by everyone else so I never clarified before. My mistake. Obviously free templates should be left for tauric abuse. My variant is supposed to be balanced :)

Restating with clarification in your example: (I edited my previous quote to be consistent)

ECL = |Floor[RHD/2 - Racial LA]| + (Total LA) + (Class levels)
ECL = |Floor[0-0]| + (8) + (Class levels)
ECL = |Floor[0]| + (8) + (Class levels)
ECL = (8) +(Class levels)

ECL = just like normal

There are two sources of LA: either race or templates, which can be inherited or acquired. The left side of the formula is the race side and is only concerned with the racial LA while the middle value includes base race's LA, inherited template LA and acquired templates LA.

On the size thing I mentioned that it is an interpretational difference so you are welcome to say that that is your reading of RAW, I'd just say that the side I'm on might be mentioned too. Not that it has any relation to who is "right" but the split is somewhere around 40/60 for your side and mine respectively. Granted I've only been watching this issue for a few years during 3.5 and not for 3.0's lifetime.

And on the maths, Ur-Priest you crack me up. I love it when maths and DnD co

[Urpriest]

sresevoir noticed my redundancy. I suppose the similar left, middle, format of the normal ecl formula got picked up by everyone else so I never clarified before. My mistake. Obviously free templates should be left for tauric abuse. My variant is supposed to be balanced :)

Restating with clarification in your example: (I edited my previous quote to be consistent)

ECL = |Floor[RHD/2 - Racial LA]| + (Total LA) + (Class levels)
ECL = |Floor[0-0]| + (8) + (Class levels)
ECL = |Floor[0]| + (8) + (Class levels)
ECL = (8) +(Class levels)

ECL = just like normal

There are two sources of LA: either race or templates, which can be inherited or acquired. The left side of the formula is the race side and is only concerned with the racial LA while the middle value includes base race's LA, inherited template LA and acquired templates LA.

On the size thing I mentioned that it is an interpretational difference so you are welcome to say that that is your reading of RAW, I'd just say that the side I'm on might be mentioned too. Not that it has any relation to who is "right" but the split is somewhere around 40/60 for your side and mine respectively. Granted I've only been watching this issue for a few years during 3.5 and not for 3.0's lifetime.

And on the maths, Ur-Priest you crack me up. I love it when maths and DnD co

Ok, let's see if I'm understanding the formula right. Let's look at the Azer:
ECL = |Floor[RHD/2 - Racial LA]| + (LA)
ECL = |Floor[1-4]| + (4)
ECL = |-3| + (4)
ECL = 7

So an Azer ends up with a higher ECL than it would ordinarily. Now I realize that since it's a case-by-case variant, said Azer could just use the old system. But I feel like the fact that this system gives a higher ECL for anything that doesn't obviously deserve it is not an intentional feature. Is it?

RAW has less to do with the issue really (see earlier comments in this thread), since a big part of this guide is showing "where monsters come from". Not RAI so much as RAAp, rules as applied. Anyway, since the size controversy isn't as noisy over here in the playground these days I'm not as familiar with it as I could be. Could you explain your position a bit more? In particular, in your view should the titanic toad have Str 71? And why (as you mentioned earlier) is Enlarge Person exempt?

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I'm checking on titanic now. Enlarge person is one of the few things that references size boni. Its actually horribly written and shouldn't be included in guide (or used RAW for that matter). Basically whichever way you interpret it leads to problems depending on if you later go up or down in size. The easiest thing for a DM to do is simply recognize that the spell is trying to use the size table but nerf some of the gains. It figures that the one poor guy trying to make sure a spell aren't as powerful as its mundane counterpart writes too badly to implement it correctly. :smallannoyed:

My bad on the formula's nomiclature though. I got distracted with my obvious excitement over another thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209022). I was going to go change those absolute values at a later time (you'll see why in a sec) and didn't do it.

The idea is simple: twice the racial LA plus 1 is free RHD. I could either A) express it nicely as a piecewise function and confuse more average readers or B) use some simple words and clutter the look of the formula. I'll do the latter:

Minimum of Zero(Floor[RHD/2 - Racial LA]) + (LA) + (Class Levels)

edit: titanic seems to jack the size table and forget to make the numbers size bonuses. Still it has to use a chart so it figures they didn't catch that small fact in the errata. And yes I could have defined the subtraction and addition for the formula above over the natural numbers but I'm trying to avoid reader confusion:smalltongue:

[TheCountAlucard]

Undead: Undead are corpses and spirits of the dead, animated and powered by the evil force of Negative Energy.
Deathless: They're like Undead, but powered by the good force of Positive Energy.I object to these statements; they've clearly been tainted with Pelorite propaganda! :smalltongue:

No, seriously, though, the books have been nothing but unclear on the subjects, seeing how conflicting they've been. :smallannoyed:

[Urpriest]

I'm checking on titanic now. Enlarge person is one of the few things that references size boni. Its actually horribly written and shouldn't be included in guide (or used RAW for that matter). Basically whichever way you interpret it leads to problems depending on if you later go up or down in size. The easiest thing for a DM to do is simply recognize that the spell is trying to use the size table but nerf some of the gains. It figures that the one poor guy trying to make sure a spell aren't as powerful as its mundane counterpart writes too badly to implement it correctly. :smallannoyed:

My bad on the formula's nomiclature though. I got distracted with my obvious excitement over another thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209022). I was going to go change those absolute values at a later time (you'll see why in a sec) and didn't do it.

The idea is simple: twice the racial LA plus 1 is free RHD. I could either A) express it nicely as a piecewise function and confuse more average readers or B) use some simple words and clutter the look of the formula. I'll do the latter:

Minimum of Zero(Floor[RHD/2 - Racial LA]) + (LA) + (Class Levels)

Enlarge Person seems to use the same language as Righteous Might. What's a good example for you of something that doesn't? Giant Size?

Ah ok, thought that was where you were going with the formula (hence the mention of natural numbers earlier). It seems reasonable enough. I'll clean the formula up some and put a mention of it in Roll Out.


I object to these statements; they've clearly been tainted with Pelorite propaganda! :smalltongue:

No, seriously, though, the books have been nothing but unclear on the subjects, seeing how conflicting they've been. :smallannoyed:

Pelorite propaganda it may be, but "force that tends to kill living things" and "force that tends to heal living things and shine brightly in their eyes" would be a tad longwinded. Remember our audience. They'll discover the truth of the Burning Hate eventually.

[Fax Celestis]

Pelorite propaganda it may be, but "force that tends to kill living things" and "force that tends to heal living things and shine brightly in their eyes" would be a tad longwinded. Remember our audience. They'll discover the truth of the Burning Hate eventually.

Fixed that for you.

[SillySymphonies]

Compliments on this handbook.

Understanding monsters is understanding your own character.
Quoted for truth. Nothing made me understand the mechanics of D&D 3.5 better than my 'monsters as characters' project (see below).

These skills are still class skills, because they are still in the Skills: section of the monster's description.
Untrue. Refer to page 307 of the Monster Manual, 'Class Skills'.

Some templates change a creature's size. If a template changes a creature's size, its size bonuses and penalties change according to the table on page 291, as does its natural armor.
Source?

By learning about monsters, you have taken your first step to understanding the big sophisticated simulation engine that lies under what at first appears to be just rules to play a game. I hope you will continue to explore in this vein. The D&D 3.5 system may not be the best-designed or most realistic gaming system, but it is in my view one of the most intricate and beautiful.[emphasis mine]
Quoted for truth. You sir, pinpointed what makes D&D 3.5 such a beautiful, intricate and popular gaming system, despite its (many) flaws.

Anyway, I share your fondness for monsters and monstrous PCs, as do my players. That's why I made 'as characters' entries for all the MM monsters with LA who didn't already have such entries. Would you be interested in these to add to this handbook?

[Urpriest]

Untrue. Refer to page 307 of the Monster Manual, 'Class Skills'.

Interesting. I hadn't realized they make it that explicit. Of course as discussed in the thread there are monsters that break this rule, with "As characters" entries or advancements that take synergy bonus skills as class skills. Still, since I'm merely supporting a default stance here, this seems like the most straightforward default stance to support. I'll change the guide to use these guidelines.

Edit: You do realize this means Nymphs no longer have Use Rope as a class skill, right?:smallfrown:



Source?


From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases):

Size and Typenatural armor

Templates often change a creature’s type, and may change the creature’s size.

If a template changes the base creature’s type, the creature also acquires the augmented subtype unless the template description indicates otherwise. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type.

If a template changes a creature’s size, use Table: Changes to Statistics by Size to calculate changes to natural armor, Armor Class, attack rolls, and grapple bonus.

Kinky, huh?



Quoted for truth. You, Sir, pinpointed what makes D&D 3.5 such a beautiful, intricate and popular gaming system, despite its (many) flaws.

Anyway, I share your fondness of monsters and monstrous PCs, as do my players. That's why I made 'as characters' entries for all the monsters in the MM with LA, who didn't already have 'as characters' entries. Would you be interested in these for adding to your guide?

It might be nice to post a link to them, yeah. Posting them wholesale would probably take up too much space.

[SillySymphonies]

You do realize this means Nymphs no longer have Use Rope as a class skill, right?
lol

If a template changes a creature’s size, use Table: Changes to Statistics by Size to calculate changes to natural armor, Armor Class, attack rolls, and grapple bonus. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeandType)
Waddayaknow...

It might be nice to post a link to them, yeah. Posting them wholesale would probably take up too much space.
As is, it's a 0.4 MB 45-page .doc file. Any ideas as for where to upload it?

[deuxhero]

So a +1 bonus either does the same thing as a +2 bonus, or does nothing, according to totally random details. That's Bad Game Design.

Unless it is strength, where even a boost to an odd number is a boost to carrying capacity. Also 13 int breakpoint for various qualifications.

[Cieyrin]

As is, it's a 0.4 MB 45-page .doc file. Any ideas as for where to upload it?

GoogleDocs is usually a good bet, just make sure the viewing rights are correct so others can see it.

[Urpriest]

Unless it is strength, where even a boost to an odd number is a boost to carrying capacity. Also 13 int breakpoint for various qualifications.

Well the system isn't exactly balanced with carrying capacity in mind. Hence Warhulking Hurler. And prereqs are also given very little thought. 4e makes a much bigger deal of odd score bonuses precisely because feat prerequisites are a much bigger part of the system.

[SillySymphonies]

GoogleDocs is usually a good bet, just make sure the viewing rights are correct so others can see it.
Is there a place I can upload it without it being linked to my e-mail address?

[Urpriest]

Is there a place I can upload it without it being linked to my e-mail address?

You could conceivably use a fake email address for GoogleDocs, since you can make a gmail or the like for free. Beyond that though I'm not sure, others may be more helpful.

[Thurbane]

Not sure if this is useful for this thread, but I posted this over at BG in a monster handbook thread. It's a list of "templates" you can add to monsters without increasing the CR:

CR +0 templates
Bone Creature (BV)
Dragonborn of Bahamut (RDr)
Dungeonbred Monster (Du)
Necropolitan (LM)
Primordial Giant (SX)
Tainted Raver (HoH)
Yuan-ti Broodguard (SS)

Dark Creature (TM) (CR +0 or CR +1 depending on the base creature)
Vecna-blooded (MM5) (after the template has been lost, only the Cloak of Mystery ability remains)
Xorvintaal Dragon (MM5) (rises to CR +1 or higher if extra abilities are added)

CR +0 when applied to creatures of 3HD or less
Anarchic Creature (PlH)
Axiomatic Creature (PlH)
Celestial (MM)
Element Creature (MP)
Entropic Creature (PlH)
Fiendish (MM)
Psuedonatural (LoM)
Spellwarped (MM3)

CR = x 0.5
Incarnate Construct

DMG2 CR+0 NPC traits
Graced from outside
Guardian spirit
Lifemate
Poisonlaced
Prodigy

[Urpriest]

Cool stuff, Thurbane.

People can feel free to post interesting monster stuff in this thread if they want. If some of it looks relevant to the general reader I'll edit it in to the handbook proper.

[Mystic Muse]

Hey Urpriest, just some things I'd like to mention.

1. The old community Monster Class thread is closed down and will not be coming back by rule of Mod. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204860) is the discussion thread for the closest thing to it now.

2. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199321) is my own thread where I'm making Monster Classes.

Just in case you want to link either.

[Urpriest]

Hey Urpriest, just some things I'd like to mention.

1. The old community Monster Class thread is closed down and will not be coming back by rule of Mod. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204860) is the discussion thread for the closest thing to it now.

2. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199321) is my own thread where I'm making Monster Classes.

Just in case you want to link either.

Thanks, I've updated my link to that thread. Do you know if the thread I linked at brilliantgameologists is still current?

[Mystic Muse]

Thanks, I've updated my link to that thread. Do you know if the thread I linked at brilliantgameologists is still current?

I have no idea. I don't really follow anything outside of Giantitp. I've also seen some of that poster's previous work on Giantitp (He got banned) and am not a fan, so I wouldn't have much reason to follow the thread unless I had good reason to believe things had changed.

[JadePhoenix]

I also wish to see a discussion of level drain and racial hit dice here

[Doorhandle]

I was reading this and I just wanted to ask


Every Monster Comes with its Racial Hit Dice. If you are a Vrock, you have 10 Outsider Hit Dice, and they have a list of Class Skills which has everything listed in the Vrock's Skills: section. However, it is up to you to decide how you wish to spend the Vrock's skill points, you don't have to make the same choices the Vrock in the Monster Manual did. Similarly, you get to choose which Feats you want, getting one at first level and one on every Character Level that's a multiple of three.

There is one exception to this. If the Monster starts out with only one Racial Hit Die then you may (as per Savage Species, Page 13) trade it out for a level in a character class. You then gain none of the Features, but you still gain the Traits. For example, you could play a Pixie Rogue 1, trading your Fey Hit Die for a level of Rogue, leaving you with ECL 1+4=5. This happens automatically for Humanoids, which is why all of the low level humanoids in the Monster Manual are presented as first level Warriors.

Player Character Monsters are Not Average. As a Player Character you start out with the maximum hit points at first level. The same is true for a Monster Player Character. As a Player Character your ability scores aren't just 10 or 11, you roll them or you use a point buy system. Player Character Monsters get to roll or use point buy as well, and add their racial ability modifiers on top, with the caveat that Ability Scores can never go below 1 due to racial penalties, and Intelligence can never go below 3. Beyond that, it's just like a normal character, but with bigger bonuses. For example, if our Vrock Fighter rolled 17, 15, 10, 8, 12, and 11, it could get a Strength of 17+12=29, a Con of 15+14=29, a Dex of 12+4=16, an Int of 10+4=14, a Wis of 11+6=17, and a Cha of 8+6=14.

Once you level up past your original Racial Hit Dice, your ability scores increase with Character Level just like an ordinary character's do. For example, if your Vrock reaches Fighter 2, it has a total of 12 Hit Dice. That's a multiple of 4, so the Vrock can raise one of its scores by 1. It will probably go with Strength, to get an impressive Strength of 30.

You do have to calculate things. You have to add up your total base attack bonus from all your classes, along with Strength modifier and anything else important, to find your bonus to melee attacks. You have to take half your racial hit dice and your new ability modifiers to determine your Save DCs for your Abilities. In short, you have some work to do.




Does this also apply to pathfinder? Because some monster feat choices are honestly crap, and there are allways skill points that could be used elsewhere.

[Urpriest]

I also wish to see a discussion of level drain and racial hit dice here

There's some mention of it in Transforming and Rolling Out. A more in-depth discussion of the RAW-legality is probably beyond the scope of this guide, but feel free to discuss it in the thread.


I was reading this and I just wanted to ask



Does this also apply to pathfinder? Because some monster feat choices are honestly crap, and there are allways skill points that could be used elsewhere.

I'm not a Pathfinder expert by any means, but as far as I know monsters still get their feats from levels, not primarily via bonus feats, so they should be different on different monsters (and thus different on PC monsters). PF does do ability scores a little differently, and I'm not sure whether they still have the rules about 1HD monsters and the like.

[SillySymphonies]

'as characters' entries for all the MM monsters with LA:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/mx7puu

[Deepbluediver]

This was a good read; I'll definitely be back here any time I need quick reference.

I still think that Monster/Core-class balance via LA is kind of a joke, at best, and anyone who wants to play as a monster should devote some time to homebrewing a PC version, but its very helpful to have a solid jumping-off point.

[CTrees]

I'm not a Pathfinder expert by any means, but as far as I know monsters still get their feats from levels, not primarily via bonus feats, so they should be different on different monsters (and thus different on PC monsters). PF does do ability scores a little differently, and I'm not sure whether they still have the rules about 1HD monsters and the like.

Pathfinder is... interesting, and some of the changes are non-obvious (see: how long it takes many players *cough*me*cough* to realize cross-class skills no longer cost more).

That said? The monster advancement section only talks about gaining additional feats, not about changing current ones. Further, to the best of my knowledge, Pathfinder currently lacks rules for retraining feats. However, monsters do gain most of their feats from HD, as demonstrating in the monster advancement rules. As such... the rules are vague, but my suspicio is that most monsters should have progressed from 1HD to their standard level, allowing for different feat progression.

Interesting note: In PF RAW, the Young template can be applied to ANYTHING IN THE BESTIARY except creatures that advance by age or feeding (dragons, barghests, etc.), or that are size fine. Young also specifies that the templated creatures are immature specimens, in case there was any question. Now, creatures that already advance by age obviously have a normal birth-to-death lifecycle, and presumably Young undead were juvenille examples of the base creatures. Thus, we must assume that everything not already fine (mostly insects and other vermin) or advancing by feeding is born and growns up to their standard entry. This includes golems and even things like animated chairs.

[SillySymphonies]

I still think that Monster/Core-class balance via LA is kind of a joke, at best, (...)
I always wondered about that: if you compare to high-op tier 1 PCs, sure. But what about among mid-op tier 3 or lower PCs?
Take the vrock for example: sure, you lose out 8 LA worth of HD, but aren't the lower saves and hp compensated for by the vrock's racial ability modifiers? You gain a crapton of nifty abilities (large size, fly speed, various elemental immunities/resistances et cetera). You gain the same gear as any other PC of your ECL. Sure, nothing beats a tier 1 PC, but I wonder how much worse a vrock blackguard 1 is of versus a human [tier 3 class] 19?

[Urpriest]

'as characters' entries for all the MM monsters with LA:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/mx7puu

Awesome! Will add to the guide shortly.

[willpell]

I'm advancing HD for my druid's dog, and wondering if I'm doing the skills wrong. Animals are listed as getting 2+INTMOD skills per HD, but by definition an animal always has an Intelligence of 2 or less, meaning a -4 or -5 modifier, so wouldn't this mean an animal only gains 1 skill point per HD? Also, the Riding Dog has Survival listed in its skills block with a +1, which it gains from its Wisdom modifier, but it has a racial bonus to Survival checks for tracking by scent only. So does it have Survival as a "class" skill? (Realistically, I think it really should; dogs often go feral when they lose their owners, and this particular dog was feral in the first place before she took it as a companion. For that matter, it would be logical for a dog to have Move Silently but that isn't listed in the statblock at all. Perhaps they just forgot?)

[Cieyrin]

I'm advancing HD for my druid's dog, and wondering if I'm doing the skills wrong. Animals are listed as getting 2+INTMOD skills per HD, but by definition an animal always has an Intelligence of 2 or less, meaning a -4 or -5 modifier, so wouldn't this mean an animal only gains 1 skill point per HD? Also, the Riding Dog has Survival listed in its skills block with a +1, which it gains from its Wisdom modifier, but it has a racial bonus to Survival checks for tracking by scent only. So does it have Survival as a "class" skill? (Realistically, I think it really should; dogs often go feral when they lose their owners, and this particular dog was feral in the first place before she took it as a companion. For that matter, it would be logical for a dog to have Move Silently but that isn't listed in the statblock at all. Perhaps they just forgot?)

Yes, you always have a minimum of 1 skill point/level.

As Urpriest's guide points out, monsters have class skills for anything they invest skill points or have a racial bonus. If it's just a stat boost, then that's all it is, so Move Silently would be a cross-class skill.

[Urpriest]

Yes, you always have a minimum of 1 skill point/level.

As Urpriest's guide points out, monsters have class skills for anything they invest skill points or have a racial bonus. If it's just a stat boost, then that's all it is, so Move Silently would be a cross-class skill.

To add to this, conditional racial bonuses count, so even if the dog only sometimes gets the Survival boost, Survival is a class skill for it.

[willpell]

So Urpriest, when building a nonhumanoid creature, is there any method beyond eyeballing it of figuring out which skills they should be barred from using? So far I've done two examples, a dog and a Psicrystal, and I just had to guess and make some dubious judgment calls. I figured the dog could Bluff in the sense of a feint or other tricky hunting maneuver, and the psicrystal has a human intelligence so it can do things like Decipher Script if it gets skill points (assuming it ever does), but fairly obviously it can't do anything which requires a hand, and the dog can't do anything which requires hands or a capacity for speech or abstract thought. Oh, and I've done a toad (actually a Goliath beetle or something similar, but I couldn't find stats on a beetle of any variety so I used the toad as a stand-in of about the same size, with a few fudges like dropping Swim and adding Climb) also, that required some other judgment calls, and I always feel like I'm doing it wrong because there isn't a guideline to keep me realistic. Any thoughts?

[Urpriest]

So Urpriest, when building a nonhumanoid creature, is there any method beyond eyeballing it of figuring out which skills they should be barred from using? So far I've done two examples, a dog and a Psicrystal, and I just had to guess and make some dubious judgment calls. I figured the dog could Bluff in the sense of a feint or other tricky hunting maneuver, and the psicrystal has a human intelligence so it can do things like Decipher Script if it gets skill points (assuming it ever does), but fairly obviously it can't do anything which requires a hand, and the dog can't do anything which requires hands or a capacity for speech or abstract thought. Oh, and I've done a toad (actually a Goliath beetle or something similar, but I couldn't find stats on a beetle of any variety so I used the toad as a stand-in of about the same size, with a few fudges like dropping Swim and adding Climb) also, that required some other judgment calls, and I always feel like I'm doing it wrong because there isn't a guideline to keep me realistic. Any thoughts?

Like you say, there aren't any real guidelines. I'd advise being as liberal as possible: chances are there's a way for anything to do anything if it's creative enough. If you feel dubious about something, ask your players to explain how they think it should work: they may surprise you.

[Cieyrin]

ask your players to explain how they think it should work: they may surprise you.

I don't think that's ever been a problem for DMs, it's mitigating the damage afterwards when you fail to stop them from getting away with it and snowballing from there. :smallwink:

[willpell]

Other than the obvious "don't", how should one handle young true dragons as characters? No other monster gains power automatically just by aging; in most campaigns this isn't a problem, but I'm envisioning a game where one player is a baby dragon and the other is an Elan or some other immortal species, and they both sit in a cave for five hundred years counting their gold pieces or something, and by the time they come out the dragon has gained an age category and is all kinds of more powerful now, while the Elan hasn't gained a single experience point since he needs to actually do something in order to advance. Niche case though this is, does a method exist for addressing it?

[Cieyrin]

Other than the obvious "don't", how should one handle young true dragons as characters? No other monster gains power automatically just by aging; in most campaigns this isn't a problem, but I'm envisioning a game where one player is a baby dragon and the other is an Elan or some other immortal species, and they both sit in a cave for five hundred years counting their gold pieces or something, and by the time they come out the dragon has gained an age category and is all kinds of more powerful now, while the Elan hasn't gained a single experience point since he needs to actually do something in order to advance. Niche case though this is, does a method exist for addressing it?

Generally, if players play monsters, the default power increaser is XP, regardless of the standard power increase from age, consuming creatures, etc. Savage Progressions (either from Savage Species, online or I think Dracanomicon) provide the kind of leveling mechanic to work out monstrous PCs in a manner that keeps them in line with other non-monstrous characters. Sometimes DMs or books will fluff in the original mechanic (the original Council of Wyrms really pushed the passage of time so that age and power leveled side-by-side) but it should really only rely on one mechanic to keep everyone on the same page.

Besides which, Dragons need to eat, drink and breathe, which tends to involve leaving their lair from time to time to gorge, unlike an Elan, who can just use their natural psionics to sustain themselves. Though they could gain power side-by-side in such an instance, as not all XP is a consequence of killing things and taking their stuff. They could discuss magic-psionic theory and gain greater insight (read: XP) in the interchange between the two, which is admittedly a slower XP progression than adventuring would tend to be.

[Mystic Muse]

Other than the obvious "don't", how should one handle young true dragons as characters?

I've got a Silver Dragon, Pyroclastic Dragon, and Styx Dragon Monster class in the link in my signature. Likely not exactly what you're looking for, and unfortunately I don't have any others yet, but I thought they'd be worth bringing up for your consideration.

[Urpriest]

Other than the obvious "don't", how should one handle young true dragons as characters? No other monster gains power automatically just by aging; in most campaigns this isn't a problem, but I'm envisioning a game where one player is a baby dragon and the other is an Elan or some other immortal species, and they both sit in a cave for five hundred years counting their gold pieces or something, and by the time they come out the dragon has gained an age category and is all kinds of more powerful now, while the Elan hasn't gained a single experience point since he needs to actually do something in order to advance. Niche case though this is, does a method exist for addressing it?

The others have covered this pretty well, but essentially Draconomicon has what you're after. Basically, aging gives you the opportunity to increase LA and RHD, but it doesn't increase them automatically, you still need experience. I think it's a decently elegant way of handling the situation, though there are potentially better ones.

When it gets stupid is when age-manipulating magic gets involved. There isn't much of it around in this edition, but a few obscure Dragonlance spells and an alternate curse from the BoVD can cause someone to age. Applying that to a Dragon...

[willpell]

Hey Ur-Priest, can you explain to me why monsters in the MM who have a Claw/Claw/Bite get to use their full attack bonus on both Claws, when humans who attack with both hands have to take -6/-10? This is especially frustrating in the case of humans who gain claws, such as from the Half-Dragon template, as I see nothing saying that they can attack freely with both claws; even though the example Half-Dragon Fighter lists two claw attacks, the actual template description says a half-dragon usually attacks with "a" claw (even though the Bite does more damage and thus is more logical to use if you only get one attack).

[Riverdance]

Very nicely done Urpriest! Clears up a lot of things. I'll admit, when I first started playing DnD I was told that it was best to play something with really broken level adjustment. Until I learned better I insisted on playing a Hound Archon or a Centaur.

[Urpriest]

Hey Ur-Priest, can you explain to me why monsters in the MM who have a Claw/Claw/Bite get to use their full attack bonus on both Claws, when humans who attack with both hands have to take -6/-10? This is especially frustrating in the case of humans who gain claws, such as from the Half-Dragon template, as I see nothing saying that they can attack freely with both claws; even though the example Half-Dragon Fighter lists two claw attacks, the actual template description says a half-dragon usually attacks with "a" claw (even though the Bite does more damage and thus is more logical to use if you only get one attack).

Claws are natural weapons, so they work like natural weapons. Humans attacking with both hands are using two-weapon fighting, which is entirely different. Natural weapons always are at the full base attack bonus if they're primary, or -5 (modified by multiattack) if they're secondary. For example, let's look at the Half-Dragon:


Attack

A half-dragon has two claw attacks and a bite attack, and the claws are the primary natural weapon. If the base creature can use weapons, the half-dragon retains this ability. A half-dragon fighting without weapons uses a claw when making an attack action. When it has a weapon, it usually uses the weapon instead.

Full Attack

A half-dragon fighting without weapons uses both claws and its bite when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its bite as a natural secondary attack. If it has a hand free, it uses a claw as an additional natural secondary attack.

Damage

Half-dragons have bite and claw attacks. If the base creature does not have these attack forms, use the damage values in the table below. Otherwise, use the values below or the base creature’s damage values, whichever are greater.

As you can see, half-dragons have two claws and a bite. If you are armed with a weapon your hands are occupied, so you can't use your claws. (If you had claws on your feet this wouldn't be a problem). If you're wielding a weapon it automatically becomes your primary attack, and uses your full attack bonus. All of your natural attacks then become secondary attacks, which means -5 to attack and half Str to damage.

If you aren't armed with a weapon your claws are primary, so they get your highest attack bonus and your bite gets the second highest. Note that both claws are at the same attack bonus. Why not have your bite primary? It's just not how you're built. In general bite is only primary on creatures where the bite is physiologically easier to use. For the average half-dragon, the claws will be easier, so they are primary. Thus if you have a single attack you use the claw, not the bite, because it's more accurate.

Note that you don't take the -6/-10 penalties unless you're actually using two-weapon fighting. Simply fighting with weapons in both hands isn't enough to trigger that, you have to actually be getting extra attacks from doing so by using that specific combat maneuver.

[Urpriest]

Literaly? So if a creature with two claw attacks wields a one handed weapon with one hand, both claws are considered ocupied?

No, sorry for being unclear, it's arm by arm, as specified in the Half-Dragon description. If you've got a one-handed weapon, you can full attack as Weapon/Claw/Bite.

[willpell]

As you can see, half-dragons have two claws and a bite. If you are armed with a weapon your hands are occupied, so you can't use your claws. (If you had claws on your feet this wouldn't be a problem). If you're wielding a weapon it automatically becomes your primary attack, and uses your full attack bonus. All of your natural attacks then become secondary attacks, which means -5 to attack and half Str to damage.

So if you have a weapon which does the same damage as your claws (or even slightly more if you're not very good at hitting), you are actually better off dropping it and just attacking with the claws, because the weapon somehow applies a -5 penalty (-2 with Multiattack) to your claw attack with the other hand?


Why not have your bite primary? It's just not how you're built. In general bite is only primary on creatures where the bite is physiologically easier to use. For the average half-dragon, the claws will be easier, so they are primary. Thus if you have a single attack you use the claw, not the bite, because it's more accurate.

This is logically sensible but not really supported by the rules. In White Wolf games, characters who aren't supposed to be able to use their bite attack easily are simply not allowed to bite unless they're grappling their target, and there's precedent in D&D for attacks that are shorter range than normal and thus can only be used by getting close (such as a human's unarmed strike), so they provoke attacks of opportunity. I'm not sure if any attacks are actually restricted to "while grappling" in D&D, that's probably a difference between the two systems.


Note that you don't take the -6/-10 penalties unless you're actually using two-weapon fighting. Simply fighting with weapons in both hands isn't enough to trigger that, you have to actually be getting extra attacks from doing so by using that specific combat maneuver.

Just to clarify your meaning here, you mean a character who has two weapons and chooses one or the other to attack with each round takes no penalty? Or are you implying there's an alternate method of getting to attack once with each weapon which isn't considered Two-Weapon Fighting?

[Taelas]

So if you have a weapon which does the same damage as your claws (or even slightly more if you're not very good at hitting), you are actually better off dropping it and just attacking with the claws, because the weapon somehow applies a -5 penalty (-2 with Multiattack) to your claw attack with the other hand?
Well, yes and no. You get iterative attacks with a weapon. You do not with natural weapons.


This is logically sensible but not really supported by the rules. In White Wolf games, characters who aren't supposed to be able to use their bite attack easily are simply not allowed to bite unless they're grappling their target, and there's precedent in D&D for attacks that are shorter range than normal and thus can only be used by getting close (such as a human's unarmed strike), so they provoke attacks of opportunity. I'm not sure if any attacks are actually restricted to "while grappling" in D&D, that's probably a difference between the two systems.
There are some attacks which can be used for free while grappling, but otherwise, no.

It is supported by the rules, though, in that it is mostly reverse-engineered from looking at monsters and comparing when they get what primary natural attack. (There aren't any rules as to when or how they get one.)


Just to clarify your meaning here, you mean a character who has two weapons and chooses one or the other to attack with each round takes no penalty? Or are you implying there's an alternate method of getting to attack once with each weapon which isn't considered Two-Weapon Fighting?
The first, though there are ways to accomplish the second (like Tiger Claw maneuvers). Flurry of Blows can also pull it off, as you can interweave any weapon you're wielding into a flurry as you wish, including all of them (assuming you have enough attacks) or none (if you want to do only unarmed strikes).

[willpell]

Well, yes and no. You get iterative attacks with a weapon. You do not with natural weapons.

I don't know what "iterative" means in this context (or any other context, actually; it's obviously related to "iteration" but that doesn't make any sense to me here, unless you had a weapon that was resizing itself repeatedly or something).

[Hecuba]

I don't know what "iterative" means in this context (or any other context, actually; it's obviously related to "iteration" but that doesn't make any sense to me here, unless you had a weapon that was resizing itself repeatedly or something).

Iterative attacks are bonus attacks do to higher BAB-- that is, the extra attack you get with a primary weapon every time BAB rolls over to a multiple of 6.

Natural weapons do not take iteratives, though if you make itteratives with a manufactured weapon, you can also make one secondary attack with each natural weapon as well (presuming, of course, that that manufactured weapon does not preclude the natural weapon's use-- you can't bite and use a mouth pick).

[Zombimode]

Just to clarify your meaning here, you mean a character who has two weapons and chooses one or the other to attack with each round takes no penalty? Or are you implying there's an alternate method of getting to attack once with each weapon which isn't considered Two-Weapon Fighting?

The only time the penalties for "Two-Weapon Fighting" apply is when you do a full attack and choose to get a bonus attack(s) with your "off-hand" weapon. You have to choose this (and what will be your off-hand weapon for this round) before you make your first attack in the round. Your off-hand weapon does not have to be wielded by a hand in any sense, its just a hold-over term from previous D&D editions. Also, by just holding a weapon in each hand, no penalties are triggered. If your Bab is high enough you can make attacks which what ever weapon you have ready.

[Taelas]

Natural weapons do not take iteratives, though if you make itteratives with a manufactured weapon, you can also make one secondary attack with each natural weapon as well (presuming, of course, that that manufactured weapon does not preclude the natural weapon's use-- you can't bite and use a mouth pick).

Creatures do not get additional attacks from a high base attack bonus (the definition of iterative attacks) when using natural weapons, and I am not aware of any exceptions to this.

[Hecuba]

Creatures do not get additional attacks from a high base attack bonus (the definition of iterative attacks) when using natural weapons, and I am not aware of any exceptions to this.

Monster Manual p 299:


Natural and Manufactured Weapons:
If a creature has both a manufactured weapon and natural weapons it uses its manufactured weapon as it's primary attack (and receives multiple attacks with that weapon, if its base attack bonus is +6 or higher), and uses its natural weapons as secondary attacks [. . .]

[Urpriest]

So if you have a weapon which does the same damage as your claws (or even slightly more if you're not very good at hitting), you are actually better off dropping it and just attacking with the claws, because the weapon somehow applies a -5 penalty (-2 with Multiattack) to your claw attack with the other hand?

As others have mentioned, if you have only one attack with your sword then yes, it would be better just to use both claws. But once your BAB is above +6 you will probably want the extra sword attacks, since natural weapons always give one attack per weapon without regard to BAB. All this is in the natural weapons guide I linked though, or should be.




This is logically sensible but not really supported by the rules. In White Wolf games, characters who aren't supposed to be able to use their bite attack easily are simply not allowed to bite unless they're grappling their target, and there's precedent in D&D for attacks that are shorter range than normal and thus can only be used by getting close (such as a human's unarmed strike), so they provoke attacks of opportunity. I'm not sure if any attacks are actually restricted to "while grappling" in D&D, that's probably a difference between the two systems.

There are more detailed ways of simulating "this attack is really awkward to use", yes. The baseline, low-detail way, though, is in the difference between secondary and primary attacks.




Just to clarify your meaning here, you mean a character who has two weapons and chooses one or the other to attack with each round takes no penalty? Or are you implying there's an alternate method of getting to attack once with each weapon which isn't considered Two-Weapon Fighting?

Again, someone else addressed this, but as stated in the FAQ among other places, if you have, for example, a Longsword in one hand and a Shortsword in the other and your attack bonus is +10 you can attack with your Longsword at +10 and your Shortsword at +5 with your attacks from BAB, taking none of the penalties from TWF. TWF and its associated penalties are strictly for when you're trying to get more attacks than your BAB would give you.

[Taelas]

Monster Manual p 299:


Natural and Manufactured Weapons:
If a creature has both a manufactured weapon and natural weapons it uses its manufactured weapon as it's primary attack (and receives multiple attacks with that weapon, if its base attack bonus is +6 or higher), and uses its natural weapons as secondary attacks [. . .]

Emphasis mine. You do not get receive iterative attacks with the same natural weapon, no matter what.

For example, if you have +6 base attack bonus as a half-dragon with 22 Str, and you use a long sword in one hand, you have two attacks with the long sword (at +12 and +7, respectively), and if you only use one hand with the long sword, you have two additional natural attacks: One with a claw at +7, and one with a bite at +7.

The rules for natural weapons explicitly states you do not receive iterative attacks with them, and I do not understand how you can read that quote to somehow contradict that.

[Zombimode]

For example, if you have +6 base attack bonus as a half-dragon with 22 Str, and you use a long sword in one hand, you have two attacks with the long sword (at +12 and +7, respectively), and if you only use one hand with the long sword, you have two additional natural attacks: One with a claw at +7, and one with a bite at +7.

:smallconfused: ... yes, that's what she was saying. There is no conflict here.

[Taelas]

:smallconfused: ... yes, that's what she was saying. There is no conflict here.

... d'oh. :smallsigh:

I completely misunderstood the other post. Mea maxima culpa! For some reason, I read 'one secondary attack with each natural weapon' as saying multiple attacks with each natural weapon, which clearly isn't what she meant at all.

[willpell]

Just to be clear, though, a human doesn't get to make more than one unarmed strike unless he takes TWF penalties, correct? Even though he has two hands? (Why did they take out the Ambidexterity feat???) Having pointy bits on your fingertips makes that much of a difference?

[Taelas]

Just to be clear, though, a human doesn't get to make more than one unarmed strike unless he takes TWF penalties, correct? Even though he has two hands? (Why did they take out the Ambidexterity feat???) Having pointy bits on your fingertips makes that much of a difference?

Yes, it works the same as manufactured weapons, even if it (on the surface, at least) would have made more sense as a natural weapon.

What does Ambidexterity have to do with it? That feat just removed penalties for using your non-dominant hand for anything. They put the benefit into Two-Weapon Fighting, anyway. (In 3.0, having Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting reduced TWF penalties by 2 with your primary hand and 6 with your off-hand. In 3.5, Two-Weapon Fighting alone does that.)

[Zombimode]

Just to be clear, though, a human doesn't get to make more than one unarmed strike unless he takes TWF penalties, correct? Even though he has two hands? (Why did they take out the Ambidexterity feat???) Having pointy bits on your fingertips makes that much of a difference?

Having a natural weapon makes the difference. Humans dont have any.

Unarmed strikes are made according to Bab. Also, you could cut someone arms of or something, but it wouldnt make them unable to perform unarmed strikes. (Some would even say it enables them to do so :smalltongue: )
And do note that not all creatures who have more then one upper limp gets an equal number of natural attacks. Vampires, Wights, Zombies... all of them only get one slam attack, even if the have to arms.

[willpell]

On Simple Question you appeared to be stating that racial HD offer attribute bonuses normally; I remember you once stating the opposite, either on this thread or somewhere else, using the Centaur as proof. Am I misremembering something or did you discover new information?

[moritheil]

This is comprehensive, and I applaud it. My only concern is that the reason inexperienced DMs and players do not understand nuanced rules is usually that they cannot be bothered to read.

I hope this will encourage some to actually learn the rules.

EDIT: Also, you may want to note for DMs that increasing the size on a monster can be a huge deal. I allowed a player to play a babau, years ago, and stuck what I felt was an appropriate LA on it. It turns out that with the mere addition of 1 HD, the babau jumps a size category and becomes a hell of a lot more competent in melee.

The flip side of this is, as a DM, I now frequently look into advancing monsters to the next size category rather than adding class levels to them. It's more CR-efficient.

[willpell]

This is comprehensive, and I applaud it. My only concern is that the reason inexperienced DMs and players do not understand nuanced rules is usually that they cannot be bothered to read. I hope this will encourage some to actually learn the rules.

That's not entirely fair given how poorly organized and sloppily written Wotco's rules material often was. I spent a long time reading the monster entries in the Monster Manual and never once guessing that absolutely necessary information on how some monster abilities work was tucked away in the Glossary, which I had never read, and not referenced in the section of every monster entry which said how the ability in question worked.


The flip side of this is, as a DM, I now frequently look into advancing monsters to the next size category rather than adding class levels to them. It's more CR-efficient.

There are certain disadvantages to being larger, though, especially in a claustrophobic environment such as many dungeons.

[Mithril Leaf]

There are certain disadvantages to being larger, though, especially in a claustrophobic environment such as many dungeons.

On the other hand, large advanced fleshrakers make me shudder. A lot.

[moritheil]

That's not entirely fair given how poorly organized and sloppily written Wotco's rules material often was. I spent a long time reading the monster entries in the Monster Manual and never once guessing that absolutely necessary information on how some monster abilities work was tucked away in the Glossary, which I had never read, and not referenced in the section of every monster entry which said how the ability in question worked.

For the people I had in mind when making that statement, it's entirely fair. (Link to SRD to read about the basic ideas of classes . . . response is that they don't want to read, and want me to sit there for 3 hours and answer basic questions.) I agree that the rules are often not well-written or well-edited, though. There are examples of the actual writers admitting that edits entirely changed or removed crucial sections of their text. (Greenbound summoning comes to mind.)


There are certain disadvantages to being larger, though, especially in a claustrophobic environment such as many dungeons.

Yes, and I did use this against said babau eventually when the party went after a kobold tribe. The player was not amused. :smalltongue:

[Endarire]

Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange. Oh My! (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1415.0)

A handy chart to tell you what keeps what.

Will you port this to MinMaxBoards as well? It'll be safe and remembered there!

[willpell]

Link to SRD to read about the basic ideas of classes . . . response is that they don't want to read, and want me to sit there for 3 hours and answer basic questions.

I don't see any fault with their logic in that. Reading comprehension is a skill, and not everyone has it. In this day and age it's easy to take the ability to translate words on a page into thoughts in a brain for granted, but it's not automatic; people have different learning styles and some of them are not geared toward this sort of medium-to-medium conversion. It is entirely legitimate for someone to say "I can't learn this on my own, would you please teach me?"; this is the entire reason we have teachers. Some people need things explained for them because they can't break the information down and digest it on their own, just as some people have no teeth and need to buy foods that don't require chewing.


Yes, and I did use this against said babau eventually when the party went after a kobold tribe. The player was not amused. :smalltongue:

His own danged fault; you were totally within your rights to punish a minmaxer for minmaxing.

[Zombimode]

On Simple Question you appeared to be stating that racial HD offer attribute bonuses normally; I remember you once stating the opposite, either on this thread or somewhere else, using the Centaur as proof. Am I misremembering something or did you discover new information?

They do. It's just that native HD of a given creature do not impose stat boosts.
Lets take a look at the centaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm):
Its abilities are listed as:
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 11

Then, in the racial traits, the following is stated:
+8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom.

The basic centaur uses, as normal for monsters, the standard array (three 10's, and three 11's). Since all racial ability mods are even, it should have 3 even scores and 3 uneven scores. But it also has 4 hd. Normally you would get a +1 to any one ability score.
But lets see, the centaur indeed has 3 even and 3 uneven scores. Furthermore, if you set the unmodified ability scores at Str 10, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 11 you would arrive exactly at the listed scores if you add the racial mods. Either way there is no room for an ability score boost.

If you advance the centaur's HD or add class levels it would gain an ability boost every HD that is divisible by 4 (8, 12, 16 and so on).
I think this issue was covered in an discussion between Urpriest and Fax on the first page of this thread.

[willpell]

So, for example, if I start a campaign as a just-hatched White Dragon Wyrmling (3 dragon HD and a +2 LA), and then gain 5000 XP so I can advance to ECL 6, and I choose to take a fourth dragon HD, do I get an attribute bonus? Or do I have to wait until I've gained four dragon HD beyond the 3d6 that the WDW starts with? What about a Brass wyrmling that starts with 4 dragon HD the moment it hatches?


I think this issue was covered in an discussion between Urpriest and Fax on the first page of this thread.

I read slowly and am terribly distraction-prone. I'd rather get an answer right now than go looking for where it might have already been given.

[Zombimode]

So, for example, if I start a campaign as a just-hatched White Dragon Wyrmling (3 dragon HD and a +2 LA), and then gain 5000 XP so I can advance to ECL 6, and I choose to take a fourth dragon HD, do I get an attribute bonus? Or do I have to wait until I've gained four dragon HD beyond the 3d6 that the WDW starts with? What about a Brass wyrmling that starts with 4 dragon HD the moment it hatches?

The white Wyrmling would receive a stat boost when he gains for whatever reason at least 1 hd (ie. advancing by character class), since he now has a number of HD divisible by 4.

For the brass wyrmling would get reverse-engineered racial ability mods (by subtracting 11 from uneven scores and 10 from even scores of the monster entry). He would get his first stat boost when he reaches 8 hd (due to advancement, class levels or templates).


I read slowly and am terribly distraction-prone. I'd rather get an answer right now than go looking for where it might have already been given.

Well, I think I just gave this answer with the analysis of the centaur :smallsmile:

[willpell]

Sucks to be a brass dragon, I guess.....

[Urpriest]

So, for example, if I start a campaign as a just-hatched White Dragon Wyrmling (3 dragon HD and a +2 LA), and then gain 5000 XP so I can advance to ECL 6, and I choose to take a fourth dragon HD, do I get an attribute bonus? Or do I have to wait until I've gained four dragon HD beyond the 3d6 that the WDW starts with? What about a Brass wyrmling that starts with 4 dragon HD the moment it hatches?


Dragons are an especially weird example, because they can advance in hit dice after character creation, which IIRC nothing else reasonably playable can do. It's buried in the example in Draconomicon, but for Dragons gaining HD after character creation you actually do pick up ability increases every multiple of four HD. Zombimonde's explanation is good as far as everything else goes, since with other monsters you've only got the stats at one particular place in HD advancement, so that's where ability bonuses are calculated.


Polymorph, Wild Shape, and Shapechange. Oh My! (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1415.0)

A handy chart to tell you what keeps what.

Will you port this to MinMaxBoards as well? It'll be safe and remembered there!

Nice chart, I'm putting a link to it in the shapeshifting section.

I might port it over there at some point. I don't currently have an account on MinMaxBoards, and I get the impression you guys don't get much new player traffic, but it still might be handy. Honestly the main reason this guide is here is to give me something to link instead of yelling at every new poster here who assumes that you don't have to read glossaries.



EDIT: Also, you may want to note for DMs that increasing the size on a monster can be a huge deal. I allowed a player to play a babau, years ago, and stuck what I felt was an appropriate LA on it. It turns out that with the mere addition of 1 HD, the babau jumps a size category and becomes a hell of a lot more competent in melee.

The flip side of this is, as a DM, I now frequently look into advancing monsters to the next size category rather than adding class levels to them. It's more CR-efficient.

I actually do point out some of that when I point out that increasing to Large gives an extra +1 to CR, though I admit it's a cursory mention at best. I'm honestly less concerned with advice about power and balance, the monster system isn't terribly consistent about either concern.

Oh also, to willpell: if you turn this thread into a discussion of educational philosophy or the like, a la the Binder thread, I will find whatever is the worst thing I can do to you allowable under the forum rules, and I will do it. Ok? :smallbiggrin:

[willpell]

Dragons are an especially weird example, because they can advance in hit dice after character creation, which IIRC nothing else reasonably playable can do.

I'm not sure what sense you're using "advance" here; AFAIK, every creature with racial hit dice has the option to take a level in its creature type to gain that creature type's hit die, just like advancing a monster, at least up to the maximum advancement listed for that monster (and I don't know if that's even a hard limit). Dragon is one of the only creature types that compares in utility to a character class, and true dragons are the only creatures that automatically advance just by living long enough, without having to earn XP.


It's buried in the example in Draconomicon, but for Dragons gaining HD after character creation you actually do pick up ability increases every multiple of four HD.

Okay, cool.


Oh also, to willpell: if you turn this thread into a discussion of educational philosophy or the like, a la the Binder thread, I will find whatever is the worst thing I can do to you allowable under the forum rules, and I will do it. Ok? :smallbiggrin:

No worries, this isn't my thread and I'm not going to go that far off the rails in someone else's virtual house (though I may mix the occasional metaphor).

[Urpriest]

I'm not sure what sense you're using "advance" here; AFAIK, every creature with racial hit dice has the option to take a level in its creature type to gain that creature type's hit die, just like advancing a monster, at least up to the maximum advancement listed for that monster (and I don't know if that's even a hard limit). Dragon is one of the only creature types that compares in utility to a character class, and true dragons are the only creatures that automatically advance just by living long enough, without having to earn XP.


Nope! Except for the true dragons, there are no rules that allow a PC to just pick up racial HD after character creation. For one, LA is related to RHD, both because increases in RHD can grant size increases and because LA is computed based partly on comparisons between the creature at its final pre-class-levels ECL and a PC of that ECL. Allowing increases to HD willy-nilly would require recalculations, and things would get weird.

As for Dragons automatically gaining HD without spending XP, that depends on whether you're using the Draconomicon rules or not. But without the Draconomicon rules, nobody, including Dragons, can use XP to buy more RHD.

[willpell]

One thing that remains unclear about dragons - do the save DCs of damaging breath weapons follow a consistent pattern? A formula of "10 + half HD + CONMOD" is listed but seems to only apply to metallic dragons' nondamaging breath; for damaging breath it says "see the dragon variety's description", which isn't terribly helpful for figuring out exactly when the increase occurs for a dragon that's leveling up. (Perhaps it clarifies in Draconomicon somewhere; I haven't actually read the book, just referenced one section that seemed relevant, so I might have missed another one that actually was.)

[willpell]

Do you have any idea why the Dire Rat has a +3 Will save when it only has 1 HD and Wisdom of 12? Do dire animals get a free Iron Will or something that isn't actually mentioned in the text? Or is Will a good save for rats because they're stubborn (gotta love phrases like "some animals have different good saves" in a book that's supposed to be full of rules).

[Cieyrin]

Do you have any idea why the Dire Rat has a +3 Will save when it only has 1 HD and Wisdom of 12? Do dire animals get a free Iron Will or something that isn't actually mentioned in the text? Or is Will a good save for rats because they're stubborn (gotta love phrases like "some animals have different good saves" in a book that's supposed to be full of rules).


for instance dire animals have good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.

I was gonna link you to All Right There in the Manual but thought better of linking TVTropes for the good of the thread.

[Urpriest]

One thing that remains unclear about dragons - do the save DCs of damaging breath weapons follow a consistent pattern? A formula of "10 + half HD + CONMOD" is listed but seems to only apply to metallic dragons' nondamaging breath; for damaging breath it says "see the dragon variety's description", which isn't terribly helpful for figuring out exactly when the increase occurs for a dragon that's leveling up. (Perhaps it clarifies in Draconomicon somewhere; I haven't actually read the book, just referenced one section that seemed relevant, so I might have missed another one that actually was.)

I haven't calculated it for all of them, but it looks like the Chromatics obey 10+half HD+Con mod as well. If you find a counterexample let me know.

Cieyrin has answered the Dire Rat question ably. In general, Animals and Humanoids can have nonstandard save progressions.

[willpell]

When a white dragon PC advances from Wyrmling to Very Young at ECL 9, it gains a dragon HD and increases in size from Tiny to Small. The Monster Manual section on white dragons lists the Attributes of Wyrmling and Very Young as being the same except for +2 Strength on the latter. But the section (in the Improving Monsters chapter) about size increases when advancing by HD says that "Tiny -> Small" means +4 Strength and -2 Dex. So if a dragon PC increases in size, does he use the standard HD advancement rule, or should he go by what it says for the dragon variety?

[Cieyrin]

When a white dragon PC advances from Wyrmling to Very Young at ECL 9, it gains a dragon HD and increases in size from Tiny to Small. The Monster Manual section on white dragons lists the Attributes of Wyrmling and Very Young as being the same except for +2 Strength on the latter. But the section (in the Improving Monsters chapter) about size increases when advancing by HD says that "Tiny -> Small" means +4 Strength and -2 Dex. So if a dragon PC increases in size, does he use the standard HD advancement rule, or should he go by what it says for the dragon variety?

Dragons generally follow their own rules when it comes to advancement and should follow their own rules as opposed to the general size increase table.

[Urpriest]

Dragons generally follow their own rules when it comes to advancement and should follow their own rules as opposed to the general size increase table.

Precisely. Note that since Dragon aging differs quite a bit from normal HD advancement (having specific age ranges, gaining many special abilities beyond those that automatically increase with HD, etc), it really should be viewed as a mechanic distinct from the HD advancement of typical monsters. Think of it more like what happens when an animal companion gains HD.

[willpell]

Think of it more like what happens when an animal companion gains HD.

Wait...I thought animal companions were the ur-example of the standard advancement rules being applied to something PCish (and ultimately part of the reason why you started this thread). How are they different?

[Zombimode]

Take a look at the Druid's Animal Companion table, for instance.
Besides HD increases, you see: Natural Armor Adjustment, Str/Dex Adjustment, Bonus Tricks, and Specials. Non of those are part of/conform to standard advancement.

[willpell]

Take a look at the Druid's Animal Companion table, for instance.
Besides HD increases, you see: Natural Armor Adjustment, Str/Dex Adjustment, Bonus Tricks, and Specials. Non of those are part of/conform to standard advancement.

They're in addition to standard advancement; AFAIK you still get all the effects of the Hit Dice you add. Is that all you meant?

[Urpriest]

They're in addition to standard advancement; AFAIK you still get all the effects of the Hit Dice you add. Is that all you meant?

You don't get size increases from bonus animal HD, and they can surpass the HD limits of the creature in question. The purpose of the Druid animal companion's bonus HD is to let you use a smaller companion at higher levels, as opposed to in 3.0 where to be competitive you had to get progressively larger companions until they introduced Legendary animals.

[willpell]

You don't get size increases from bonus animal HD.

Where is this stated?

[Urpriest]

Where is this stated?

It doesn't need to be. Size increases are a feature of advancement, while the animal companion gains bonus HD. They're different mechanics, with the only similarity being that both give HD and thus give additional skill points and feats (as specified at the end of the animal companion entry).

The FAQ clarifies this:

When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or ranger’s) animal
companion as the master’s level goes up, does the animal
get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf
companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice
and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the
wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in
the MM, an “advanced” wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be
Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large?

An animal companion doesn’t get bigger when it adds extra
Hit Dice for the master’s levels. The advancement entries for
creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to
unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and
perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.

As a final consideration, consider why you didn't balk at my statement that the bonus HD aren't limited by the HD limits of advancement. If you're using that entry for determining when size increases happen, what happens when you pass the range given in the entry?

[willpell]

As a final consideration, consider why you didn't balk at my statement that the bonus HD aren't limited by the HD limits of advancement. If you're using that entry for determining when size increases happen, what happens when you pass the range given in the entry?

That part didn't bother me because I figured that the listed size ranges for creatures are suggestions for what's usual, rather than mandates of what's possible. Like the environment ranges, or alignment....rare exceptions may occur.

[Dark_Ansem]

so, let me see if I did understand correctly:

a Sarrukh has a Racial HD of 14 and a LA of +8: that means that its EFFECTIVE level is 22, BUT, in this form, its 14HD is his actual starting level.

a mind Flayer, on the other hand, has a Racial HD of 8 and LA of +7. Again, effective level of 15 but, gameplay-wise, it begins with 8 levels?

for the same reason a Drow Cleric 1 (LA+2 and no racial hit dice as far as I know) will only have 1 level, its class. right?

[Cieyrin]

so, let me see if I did understand correctly:

a Sarrukh has a Racial HD of 14 and a LA of +8: that means that its EFFECTIVE level is 22, BUT, in this form, its 14HD is his actual starting level.

a mind Flayer, on the other hand, has a Racial HD of 8 and LA of +7. Again, effective level of 15 but, gameplay-wise, it begins with 8 levels?

for the same reason a Drow Cleric 1 (LA+2 and no racial hit dice as far as I know) will only have 1 level, its class. right?

Correct, the ECL is only of use for how much experience till your next level and what your Wealth by Level should be, otherwise you use the sum of RHD and class levels to determine anything else.

[Zombimode]

MM4 come with a new style of stat block (and it's continued in Magic of Incarnum). Now, thats hardly the first time a new stat block style was introduced and also not the last time.

But the MM4 stat block seems to invent a new way of classifying special abilities. Normally a creatures abilities are either Special Attacks or Special Qualities (correct me if I'm wrong). This is an important distinction for effects like Alternate Form and its spell derivatives.

On the MM4 stat block, no "Special Attacks" line is found. Instead, we see "Attack Options" and "Special Actions". Is this only an aesthetic distinction and everything written under those two make up the creatures Special Attacks?


At any rate, its confusing to see new terminology that doesn't really fit into the established monster rules.

[Urpriest]

MM4 come with a new style of stat block (and it's continued in Magic of Incarnum). Now, thats hardly the first time a new stat block style was introduced and also not the last time.

But the MM4 stat block seems to invent a new way of classifying special abilities. Normally a creatures abilities are either Special Attacks or Special Qualities (correct me if I'm wrong). This is an important distinction for effects like Alternate Form and its spell derivatives.

On the MM4 stat block, no "Special Attacks" line is found. Instead, we see "Attack Options" and "Special Actions". Is this only an aesthetic distinction and everything written under those two make up the creatures Special Attacks?


At any rate, its confusing to see new terminology that doesn't really fit into the established monster rules.

That is annoying. DMG II style statblocks are great for NPCs in an adventure, but they're lousy for first presentations of new mechanics. However it's not all that tricky to adjudicate. The statblocks still have an SQ section, so any special ability that's not an SQ is clearly a Special Attack. Attack Options and Special Actions is just for showing what can modify attacks versus what takes its own standard actions.

[Luckmann]

Wow. That was a really, really good guide that cleared up so many things for me.

However, since I'm apparently a complete noob and quite possibly mentally challenged, I'm not sure I'm getting everything.

I found this guide while trying to figure out how to turn an Animal into a playable race, and what modifiers, traits and features and so on would apply.

Is there any chance you could take an Animal or a Monster (or anything, for that matter) and step-by-step go through how to make it into a playable race, explaining the thought process and calculation(s) as you go?

What I'm trying to do myself is to make a Neutral Good Squirrel Rogue to be used as a Cohort, applying either the Celestial Creature or Half-Celestial Template. Let's ignore that players cannot be Animals due to lower than 3 Intelligence (since it's a player character anyway, Intelligence will get over 3) and whether or not you can apply the Half-Celestial Template; those things are irrelevant.

For reference, here's the stats for a Squirrel, originally intended for use as a Familiar, that I was intending to use:
Squirrel: CR -; Diminutive Animal; HD ¼d8; hp 1; Init +3 (Dex);
Spd 10 ft., climb 15ft; AC 17 (+4 Size, +3 Dex); Atk none; SQ scent;
Face 1 ft. by 1 ft.; Reach 0ft; SV Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1;
Str 2, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4.
Skills: Climb +15, Hide +22, Move Silently +11, Listen +9. Squirrels gain a +4 racial bonus to Climb, Hide and Move Silently checks.
This, however, resulted in another question. When applying Templates, when a Template gives you a Special Quality or Ability dependant on Hit Dice, how is that calculated for a player character? Would that be based on the chosen class, then...? Or Type? Because if it's the Type, it would seem odd, since Outsiders have d8, but if Outsiders always have d8, how would that interact with a Player Character with Class Levels?

Damn, I'm more confused than I thought.

I'm going to try to re-read everything again. :smalleek:

[Cieyrin]

Templates are generally based off of Racial Hit Dice, not class. As for your Squirrel, it meets the type criteria just fine, it just doesn't natively have the Intelligence to be Half-Celestial. Not that that's a big deal, Awakened Squirrels are quite capable of consenting to be uplifted further. :smallwink:

[Nergaal]

Hello,

This is a very impressive work and i'm glad i read it entirely.
It is awesomely interesting.
Thanks for your hard work vulgarizing this technicality.

Cheers :)

[.Zero]

I'm having a real bad time understanding monsters' sheets.
Let's talk about the Nightwalker in the MM. It's a huge 21HD undead with 38 strength. Its BAB is +10 but its Grapple is +34. Its Attack and Full Attack are Slam +24 and two Slams +24, respectively, both with a +16 flat damage.
I really don't understand how this is possible. In my calculations, Its attack rolls should be 10BAB + 14Str -2Size = +22 with a flat damage of +14, which is completely different from what is written in the MM and in the SRD.
So why its attacks are +24 slam attacks with +16 flat damage? And why its grapple bonus is +34? Where are those numbers coming from? None of its feats is enhancing its attack rolls or damage so I'm confusing...

Thank you and sorry for being a necromancer.

[A_S]

I'm having a real bad time understanding monsters' sheets.
Let's talk about the Nightwalker in the MM. It's a huge 21HD undead with 38 strength. Its BAB is +10 but its Grapple is +34. Its Attack and Full Attack are Slam +24 and two Slams +24, respectively, both with a +16 flat damage.
I really don't understand how this is possible. In my calculations, Its attack rolls should be 10BAB + 14Str -2Size = +22 with a flat damage of +14, which is completely different from what is written in the MM and in the SRD.
So why its attacks are +24 slam attacks with +16 flat damage? And why its grapple bonus is +34? Where are those numbers coming from? None of its feats is enhancing its attack rolls or damage so I'm confusing...

Thank you and sorry for being a necromancer.
All Nightshades benefit from their own Desecrating Aura ability, giving them +2 to attack and damage rolls; this bonus is included in the stat block. The ability is listed at the top of the SRD entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm), since it's common to all Nightshades.

I'm not sure why the Grapple mod is +34 instead of +32; they may have (incorrectly) applied the Desecrating Aura bonus to it as well?

[TrueJordan]

Being Huge gives you a +8 to grapple, and you don't deal with the -2 for being huge for grappling, so it's BAB+Size mod+Str, so that should be 10+8+14= 32.
The desecration aura gives it a +2 as well, for a total of 34.

[A_S]

Being Huge gives you a +8 to grapple, and you don't deal with the -2 for being huge for grappling, so it's BAB+Size mod+Str, so that should be 10+8+14= 32.
The desecration aura gives it a +2 as well, for a total of 34.
Since a grapple check isn't an attack roll (it's "like an attack roll" according to the rules, but they then list exactly what modifiers apply to grapple checks, which doesn't include "other bonuses to attack rolls"), I don't believe the desecration aura should apply. I do suspect that's the source of the +2, though; I just think the stat block is wrong.

[TuggyNE]

Since a grapple check isn't an attack roll (it's "like an attack roll" according to the rules, but they then list exactly what modifiers apply to grapple checks, which doesn't include "other bonuses to attack rolls"), I don't believe the desecration aura should apply. I do suspect that's the source of the +2, though; I just think the stat block is wrong.

The list of modifiers is not exhaustive, since the list of modifiers to attack rolls in the definition of same is similarly limited.
Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is:
Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier

I'm not sure the statblock is right, but neither am I sure it's wrong.

[A_S]

The list of modifiers is not exhaustive, since the list of modifiers to attack rolls in the definition of same is similarly limited.

I'm not sure the statblock is right, but neither am I sure it's wrong.
Hm, that is goofy. So it comes down to whether "like an attack roll" means it's enough "like" an attack roll that it inherits modifiers that affect attack rolls.

This just in: D&D 3.5 rules sometimes unclear.

[Kyome]

k i have created a monster not everything is on here but need to ask is there anyway to make a monster from scratch and make them into a race of their own?
also tell me if u want a copy of the monster that i made up

[A_S]

k i have created a monster not everything is on here but need to ask is there anyway to make a monster from scratch and make them into a race of their own?
also tell me if u want a copy of the monster that i made up
The playground is going to need some more info to help you out. Since you seem to be asking for help with a homebrew monster, not asking questions about Urpriest's guide per se, I recommend making a new thread to ask for help.

You should include what you have so far, and a bit more about what exactly you want to do with it (is it for a game you're DMing? Or do you want to turn it into a playable race for a character you want to play?).

[Fornax421]

Templates are generally based off of Racial Hit Dice, not class. As for your Squirrel, it meets the type criteria just fine, it just doesn't natively have the Intelligence to be Half-Celestial. Not that that's a big deal, Awakened Squirrels are quite capable of consenting to be uplifted further. :smallwink:

ok, so i am trying to build my animal companion (A Brown bear named Thunder) into my next PC when/if my character were to die (my PC is a dwarf druid, its fun) but i cannot figure out what my level adjustment would be. i have a "last will and testament" that if Viet (the dwarf) were to die another druid NPC would cast awaken upon Thunder. thereby making him an awakened Brown Bear. he would have 6 RHD and +2 HD for being awakened, a normal CR for a Brown Bear is 4.....and i have no idea how to calculate that into either LA or ECL........help plz!:smalleek:

[ZamielVanWeber]

Brown Bear has LA -. Awaken does nothing to change LA so it stays - (unsuitable for a player character). That being said Savage Species has rules for applying level adjustment to LA -, but be careful as they almost always result in inflated LA.

[Saintheart]

All right, one more question for the brains trust: what is the "level" of a monster when looking at making one a cohort by the Leadership feat?

I have a horrible feeling it's Racial HD plus level adjustment, so please give me a dissenting view :D

For full disclosure, it's because a Midgard Dwarf would be an awesome cohort for a Cleric/Runecaster, but if the dwarf's "level" for cohort is 12th, it's only going to be available for 14th level characters.

[Taelas]

You're correct, but some races have level adjustments that only apply to cohorts (which is noted in parentheses after the LA).

Cohorts are generally built like PCs. RHD + class HD + LA = ECL, and the ECL is what you look for.

[Saintheart]

Cheers, thanks for that. That said, a Midgard Dwarf is a lovely capstone present for a Runecaster anyway since you're generally going to get permanent runes around character level 13-14. Carry on...