Bard/Paladin (the easy combat mode)

[Ryulin18]

Just made it up using 6 books and a lot of time. Im currently using this character and it works very well for saves, bonuses, damage, sneaking and buffing. A pretty good all rounder.

12th level so far

Bard: 8 levels. Paladin: 4 levels.

STATS
STR- 15 +1 (level 12)
DEX- 16 +2 (level 4 and 8)
CON- 13
INT- 12
WIS- 9 +2 (Ioun stone, lucky find)
CHA- 18 +2 (cloak of charisma)

SAVES
FORT - 12 (2 bard, 4 pal, 1 ability, 5 cha)
REF - 16 (6 bard, 1 pal, 3 ability, 5 cha)
WILL - 17 (6 bard, 1 pal, 5 ability (I can explain later) and 5 cha)

AC - 21 (7 from +3 chain shirt, 4 dex)
HP 80 - (6,4,5,4,6,3,6,2 all +1 for con for bard and 9,4,9,10 +1 for con for Pal)

BAB[/U} - +10/+1 [U]Grapple +13

+3 Greatsword attack and damage
+19/+10 - 2d6+6 dmg - 19 to 20 crit (X2dmg)

+3 Great sword when SMITING EVIL!
+24/+15 - 2d6+ 18 - 19 to 20 crit (X2 dmg)

FEATS - IMPORTANT!!!
Weapon finesse -Dex for attack rolls
Focus (greatsword) - +2 to attack rolls
Devoted performer (complete adventurer page 107) - bard/pal abilities stack for Smite evil and Bard songs a day. Also allows cross classing easily. Also lets you have perform as a class skill for paladin
Force of personality (Complete adventurer again) - uses CHA for will save instead of WIS...a low for me.
From smite to song (Champions of valor) - Swap smite evils and bard songs freely. Basically pooling you're abilities for if you need them or not. 12 smite evils ,12 songs mixture of both! NICE
Something nice like Acrobat - just cos I got tired :smalleek:

At this point you have 12 songs a day, which can be swapped for smite evils.

BARD SPELLS
Spell level, spells known, spells a day, bonus spells for high CHA...total

0 - 6 - 3,0 = 3
1st - 4 - 3,2 = 5
2nd - 4 - 3,1 = 4
3rd - 3 - 1,1 = 2
4th - 0 - 0,1 = 0
5th - 0 - 0,1 = 0

Skill points
101 so far...maxed out in diplomacy, perform, tumble and bluff

ENJOY, feedback is nice because this is the first time I have ever posted :smallsmile:

[WarKitty]

I don't think you can finesse a greatsword...

I've been working on a similar build. What I determined was you either eat a feat and go spiked chain, or go TWF and get a spiked shield. Since you're dex-based, go ahead and take combat reflexes.

[Ryulin18]

Well.....:smallfrown:....:smallconfused:...:smalla nnoyed:...****

[Vemynal]

sounds like a fun build, hav u considered trying to learn white raven maneuvers. theres ways without taking the ToB base classes

[WarKitty]

Few more things:

Personally, I recommend spiked chain because you can take a hand off to cast. Get some armor spikes so you're still armed when you're not wielding the chain.

Weapon focus isn't that great a feat from what I know, but our melee focused people might know better. I do know there's a feat out there that lets you upgrade the level of armor you can wear by one.

[tyckspoon]

The Str and Dex of your stat arrangement aren't far enough apart for Weapon Finesse to pay off anyway; you're only getting +1 to hit out of that feat, and there are much better things you could be doing with it (unless you expect to stumble into a set of +6 Dex gloves somewhere with no chance to pick up the comparable Strength belt, but based on the gear you mention I'm guessing your DM is either lowballing the treasure you find or you're getting primarily random loot without much chance to exchange it for useful items- you should be able to have a +2 item to any of the stats you care about pretty easily by your level, for example, and a +4 for the one you really want buffed.)

Feats you want:
Power Attack: Because it turns extra hit bonuses (such as bard song and Smite) into damage, and because it qualifies you for-
Awesome Smite (Comp. Champion)- tactical feat that lets you add some neat carrier bonuses to a Smite attack
Divine Might- use a Turn Undead use to apply your Cha to damage for a round. (C. Warrior is the most recent printing, it's also in Deities & Demigods and thus in the Open Gaming Content on d20srd.)

[Talya]

Suggestions:
Drop Weapon Finesse, Force of Personality, and Weapon Focus.

You've got enough bard levels to make Crystal Echoblades worth your while. Base damage of 1d8+4Sonic > 2d6.

Replace with: Snowflake Wardance, Power Attack, and Divine Might.

Focus on Charisma above all else. (Since you're now getting it to hit and damage.) Put the two points you were putting in Dexterity into it instead.

Swap out Suggestion for Song of the Heart. Go Silverbrow Human and plan to get Dragonfire Inspiration.

[Keld Denar]

tyckspoon mentioned a lot of good feats. Another one I'd suggest, possibly in place of Divine Might, is Law Devotion. Your Cha isn't high enough to break even with Divine Might, so Law Devotion actually gives you a better return on damage when you filter the bonus through PA. Its also more economical in a longer fight (longer defined as more than 3 rounds, less than 10 rounds).

Awesome Smite is...well, its awesome. It literally takes 0 effort to activate. Just smite, and get free stuff. I like the idea of getting a Lesser or Greater Revelation Crystal on my weapon. That way, when you smite an invisible foe, you IGNORE the mischance, then you light the foe up with righteous mojo, allowing your allies to gang up on them before the lights go out again. Incredibly useful.

I wouldn't really bother with Force of Personality, if you can change it. You already get Cha to will saves, and Bard has a good will save. Get a Vest of Resistance or some such instead.

Another feat to consider is Champions of Valor's Intiate of Milil. It allows you to stack Pally, Cleric, and Bard levels all together to determine the strength of your Inspire Courage, IIRC. Since Inspire Courage is your best song, this is a really potent boon.

[Ryulin18]

Damn good ideas gents! :smallsmile:

Gonna have a change around for weapon focus and Acrobat to the ones you stated.

[Keld Denar]

I don't think Talya qualifies as a "gent", but then again, this IS the internet.
Where all the dudes are dudes, the chicks are dudes, and kids are cops.
Which ideas were you gonna go with?

[Loki_42]

I don't think you can finesse a greatsword...


Isn't that essentially what an Elven Courtblade is?

[Talya]

I don't think Talya qualifies as a "gent", but then again, this IS the internet.
Where all the dudes are dudes, the chicks are dudes, and kids are cops.
Which ideas were you gonna go with?

If I'm a gent, these two children to whom I've given birth should have been mentioned in the tabloids!

[Metahuman1]

Lingering song and Words of creation might be worth while, let you get more mileage out of your bardic music uses. Dragonfire Inspiration for sonic damage is good since your almost always gonna put some hurt on with it.

There's a sub level for pally at lvl two that lets you ditch Cha to saves in place of Cha to AC. Take it, and learn to cast protection from evil either as a pally or a bard, then take one, count them, one, level of witch hunter PRC form oriental adventures, and you get your Cha to saves form that. If you want, maybe take Astetic Mage and One level of monk to get Cha too AC from two separate stacking sources. This would let you not have too actually wear armor, and help to give you a LOT of return on pumping your Cha as much as possible, particularly when combined with other suggestions on this topic, since you could get Chax2 too AC, Cha to saves (x2 if you keep force of personality in there, maybe retroactively take a couple of low impact flaws for feats?), Cha as your real spell casting stat, Cha too assist Turn undead and bardic music and some of you skills, Cha to hit, and Cha to damage. It would literally become the only stat you use for anything aside form skills and hit points.

Taking the second level of monk might not hurt since you'd get Evasion out of the deal. For best results, use Unearthed Arcana too get more useful bonus feat options. DO NOT TAKE MORE THEN 2 MONK LEVELS! Seriously, you lose all benefit after that.

Obligatory suggestion: One level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce. Maybe take Whirling Frenzy Variant if DM will rule that it doesn't negatively impact spell casting and bardic music and what not.

[Ryulin18]

I now have Lumin up and running...very well! :smallsmile:

So far he has equalled the party barbarian for damage by bonding with the party rogue! (that took some roleplay)

Everything is well. Will post full cha sheet later

[Paul H]

Hi

Seems like your game is 3.5 only.

If it was PF I would have gone Bard 1/Pal 4/Dragon Disciple 7, but it looks like you've found something you're happy with.

Thanks
Paul H

[Andorax]

Might be missing something here...

Bard: Any Nonlawful

Paladin: Must be Lawful Good.

Sure, you can *technically* be an ex-bard 8/paladin 4 so long as you have all your bardic goodies already stashed away and don't look to advance them any further (or conversely, an ex-paladin).


What really blows my mind is that, if I recall correctly, there's even a feat designed to help make this otherwise-impossible multiclass work better...somehow?

[Paul H]

Hi

Nope- not missing anything.

PF Bards have NO alignment requirement! :smallsmile:

(One of the many, many changes from 3.5 to PF).

Pathfinder classes are generally far more powerful than 3.5 counterparts.

(But yes, Paladins are still LG)!

Thanks
Paul H

[Keld Denar]

Also, Devoted Performer (CAdv) is a feat that allows a Bard to be Lawful Good without any penalties (also allows you to freely multiclass between Pally and Bard while ignoring that annoying multiclass rule in Paladin).

[Paul H]

Hi

Oh, BTW, PF Pally isn't a 'class of no return'. You can freely multiclass without penalty.

I can post the Bard/Pally/DD build if anyone wants it.

Thanks
Paul H

[Popertop]

yeah devoted performer lets you multiclass freely between the two, and it lets you take levels in Bard even if you are lawful.

[Paul H]

Hi

Here's what I worked out:

Arcane Duelist 1/Hospitaler 4/Dragon Disciple 7 (Arcane Duelist & Hospitaler are Archetypes from APG/UM)

Str 20
Dex 18
Con 15
Int 12
Wis 11
Cha 20
(Includes your stats, items & DD stat increases)

BAB +9/4
Saves F 15 R 14 W 15

HP 112 (Max HP 1st lvl. 1/2 HD +1 thereafter. Toughness. Con bonus. Faoured Class (Pal))
AC 26 (30 c/w Shield spell) Mithril B/Plate +1, Dex, +4 Nat, Dodge)

Feats:

Dodge (+1 AC against everything, except when flat footed)
Wpn Focus Gt Sword (Human)
Gtr Mercy (Ult Magic) Extra D6 healing when using Lay on Hands, but not using 'Mercy'
Selective Channel (PF Core), Arcane Strike (Arcane Duelist Ult Magic) Ignore 5 targets from Channel Energy radius
Cleave,
Pwr Attack (DD Bonus) [2H Pwr Attack is -3 hit, +9 dam]
Gt Cleave
Imp Init (DD Bonus)
Lunge (PF Core) (Trade -2 AC for extra 5' reach)
Toughness (DD Bonus) (Different now. Extra 12HP this case)

Attack (Gt Sword +3) 18/13
Damage (Gt Sword +3) 2D6+12 (Inc +2 Arcane Strike)

Attack Claws (x2): +14 (Magical)
Damage Claws (x2): D6+7 (Inc +2 Arcane Strike)
Attack Bite: +14
Damage Bite; D8+9 (Inc +2 Arcane Strike) + D6 Fire
Note - Arcane Strike is swift action, makes all attacks magical, adds +2 arcane damage)

Spells:

Bard
Spells Known 6/4/4 (Plus bonus) Note: Cantrips usable unlimited times/day
Spells/Day 6 x 1st, 4 x 2nd (Inc Cha bonus)
DD Bonus Spells known (Mage Armour, Resist Energy, Fly)

Paladin
Spells/Day 2 x 1st (Bonus spells)

Class Abilities

Bard (Arcane Duelist):

Arcane Strike (Bonus Feat)
Bardic Knowledge +1
Performance 9 rnds/day
Distraction
Fascinate
Inspire Courage +1

Paladin (Hospitaler)

Aura Good
Smite Evil 1/Day (All attacks +5 hit. +4 dam. +5 Deflect AC vs target. Attacks ignore DR)
Divine Grace (+5 Bonus on all saves - already included)
Lay on Hands 7/Day. Heals 2D6 (3D6 if no Mercy used)
Mercy (Used with Lay on Hands - chose Remove Sickened condition)
Divine Health
Aura Courage
Channel Positive Energy 8/Day. 30' Radius Heal D6 (Living Creatures) Harm D6 (Undead)

Dragon Disciple

Grants spells known & Spells/day as 6th lv Bard
Grants Draconic Powers of 7th lvl Deraconic Sorceror (Extra spells, feats, etc)
Adds Str +4, Con +2, Nat Armour +3
Breath Wpn 1/day: 30' Cone Fire 6D8 (DC 18 Ref Half Dam)
Blindsense 30'
Form of Dragon 1/day (As spell)

Medium Gold Dragon Form (Drag Disciple ability 1/Day for 6 mins - lvl based)

Str 24 Dex 18 Con 17
AC 23
Saves: F 16 R 14 W 15
Move Fly 60', Swim 60'
Darkvision 60'
Resist Fire 20
Breath Wpn (Once) 30' Cone. 6D8 Fire DC 18 Reflex

Attack: Claws (x2) +16
Bite +16
Wing Buffet (x2) +16

Damage: Claws (2) D6+9
Bite D8+12
WIng Buffets D4+9
(Includes +2 damage to all for Arcane Strike)

Hope this helped.
Thanks
Paul H

[Jude_H]

:smallconfused:

Is this where we start statting it out in Savage Worlds and Fate?

[Andorax]

Ah...didn't see any references to this being Pathfinder specific. Objection withdrawn, carry on.

I've (for the above reason) never tried a bard/paladin, but I did play in a 2-player campaign once as the paladin half of a bard and paladin team. Worked out rather well, actually.

Side note: Keld Denar, that's the feat I was remembering, but I did not recall that it allowed a bard to resume advancing despite being Lawful (in essence, allowing an ex-bard to become a non-ex-bard). So by the technical rules, you'd have to start out as a non-lawful bard, convert to Lawful Good, take at least one level of Paladin, get to a level when you get access to another feat, then take Devoted Performer to allow you to un-ex your Bard class).