[3.5 PrC]Ordained Arcanist[PEACH]

[Tyndmyr]

Ordained Arcanist

The Ordained Arcanist combines his expertise in the arcane with his dedication to a god or ideal. Frequently, he attributes his arcane prowness to this god or ideal, and seeks to further their related goals in the world. Ordained Arcanist's frequently work alongside Clerics, Paladins, and other divine casters, but see no difficulty in working with other classes so long as they are not opposed to what the OA stands for. A rapport exists between OAs and Mystic Theurges, for they frequently share similar goals...the MT merely takes a more generalized approach to achieving them. Other wizards occasionally take a dim view of "wasting time" pursuing divine power when more arcane spells remain to be known, but most see knowledge of all flavors as worthy of pursuit.

Hit Die: D6

Requirements:
Alignment: Any

Skills: 8 ranks Knowledge:Arcana, 4 ranks Knowledge: Religion, 4 ranks Spellcraft.

Feats: Extra Spell

Special: Must be able to cast arcane spells.

Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft(any), Heal, Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Religion), Knowledge(Planes), Profession(any), Spellcraft.

Skill Points at each Level: 2 + Int

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Domain Ability|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Divine Inspiration(1)| +1 level of existing spellcasting class

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Divine Inspiration(2)| +1 level of existing spellcasting class

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Divine Inspiration(3), Turn or Rebuke Undead|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Divine Inspiration(4)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Divine Inspiration(5)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Divine Inspiration(6), Deeper Understanding|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Divine Inspiration(7)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Divine Inspiration(8)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

10th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+7|Divine Inspiration(9), Domain Mastery|+1 level of existing spellcasting class [/table]

Domain Ability: Select a single domain, and gain the granted powers of that domain.

Divine Inspiration: You add the domain spell of the level specified from the domain selected for Domain Ability to your spell list as well as your spells known. If you cast from multiple spell lists, you may select only one to benefit from this ability.

Turn or Rebuke Undead: At 4th level, the Ordained Arcanist gains turn/rebuke undead as if he were a cleric.

Deeper Understanding: As your familiarity with the arcane and the divine grows, you may now cast any spell on your spell list as either arcane or divine. If you have cast from multiple spell lists, you may select only one to benefit from this ability.

Domain Mastery: The Ordained Arcanist now casts spells from the domain granted by this class at +1 CL.


Design notes: It's like MT-lite. You only grab a domain instead of full dual casting...but you don't end up several levels behind. I see this as a solid sorc PrC...though wizard will tend to have better options available. I'm ok with this, as the traditional cleric/sorc MT tended to be....utterly horrible. It probably opens up some interesting TO options, but I'm not *that* worried unless I missed some terribly broken combo.

[Reluctance]

Caster PrCs are all over the place in terms of power, but gaining a domain isn't too out of sorts. I'd throw in a feat prereq to make it a little less something for nothing, but otherwise the basic idea is solid. In the best case scenario with a sorcerer, a bonus spell known/level and bonus HP/level seem worth about that.

Only thing that stands out to me as potentially troublesome is the turning. Turning plus Deeper Understanding plus Cha-based casting and/or nightsticks can lead to DMM shenanigans.

Also, the wording feels a little strange with partial casters, and with the last couple of levels for people who jump into the class as soon as they qualify. RAI doesn't seem too bad, but RAW could be tightened up a bit. Knowing and being able to cast a spell you don't have a slot for can lead to interesting trickery.

[jiriku]

My assessment: I think you have accomplished exactly what you set out to do with this class. Kudos on designing something that achieves its goal in such a simple, straightforward manner. I wish I could homebrew so elegantly.

Is Deeper Understanding intended to allow you to cast in armor? I'd expect so, since a divine spell shouldn't suffer arcane spell failure chance, but you didn't state it explicitly so I wanted to confirm my understanding.

[Tyndmyr]

Is Deeper Understanding intended to allow you to cast in armor? I'd expect so, since a divine spell shouldn't suffer arcane spell failure chance, but you didn't state it explicitly so I wanted to confirm my understanding.

Thanks for the compliments!

It is...it's also intended to fulfill prereqs that require divine casting, since it is essentially a theurge-styled class. I did think of DMM while creating this, but frankly, it ends up not really being different than a DMM cleric or a DMM archivist, and neither of those require ten levels of PrC to get to. I tend to blame DMM...and even then, only in conjunction with things like persist and nightsticks. It also allows you greater freedom in terms of say, item creation. It's an oddball capstone in that it isn't a terribly obvious awesome thing, but it has a number of creative uses.

There are a few things in wording I considered doing different ways, and I would expect a partial caster to drop out of the class after hitting the maximum level he'll be attaining, but strictly speaking, it should be viable for them.

[Strormer]

I'd throw in a feat prereq to make it a little less something for nothing, but otherwise the basic idea is solid.

I agree. There is a bit of trouble with the fact that, considering there's no loss of Wizard casting ability, you gain the ability (mind you at 15th or later) to cast Wizard damage in armor, and you gain access to new spells that could easily be otherwise unavailable to a standard wizard all for the loss of a few free IC/Meta feats, there seems to be no reason not to take this PrC. It is better than standard Wizard in every sense without any drawbacks that I can see except maybe the need to split your high scores between Wis and Int, but even if you only buff Wis and let your Int stay mid-range, you'll be decent through most of the game and very powerful come the high level stuff.

Perhaps a good feat requirement to push you later than 5th level starting or not something else that is a bit of a sacrifice on the Wizard's part. Right now the only reason I can see not to do this is RP reasons, which many players would ignore for the sake of power (so sad).

Outside of that complaint, this is an excellent blending of concepts without breaking the Wizard overtly. (It would take some effort on the PC's part to powergame this guy.) I applaud you.:smallbiggrin:

[Kobold-Bard]

Can you trade these class Features for ACFs?

If a spell is on both arcane & divine spell lists (eg. Scrying), does Deeper Understanding allow you to choose which components/focuses/etc. you use to cast it?

Thirding an additional pre-req.

Other than that, looks nice. May well use in a game I'm in.

[Tyndmyr]

Can you trade these class Features for ACFs?

I don't see why you couldn't where appropriate. I'm not sure it would generally be worthwhile, but I'd be curious about the exceptions.


If a spell is on both arcane & divine spell lists (eg. Scrying), does Deeper Understanding allow you to choose which components/focuses/etc. you use to cast it?

If it's both, you'd use the requirements of whatever you were casting it as. So, if divine, ASF doesn't apply...but you might need a divine focus or the like. Shouldn't be a major problem, as most spells don't differ too greatly between arcane and divine.


Thirding an additional pre-req.

Other than that, looks nice. May well use in a game I'm in.

Yeah, the feat is a solid choice. I selected Extra Spell, as something that technically can apply to any arcane classes, but is less of a waste for spont casters. I feel like spont casters get the short end of the stick in general, so I prefer to design to let them get in on the fun.

[eftexar]

It is rather elegant, but as far as prestige classes go it is also, with Deeper Understanding being the most useful ability, sort of underpowered. Sure there would be no reason to not take it as a sorcerer, but the metamagic feats of the wizard are a bit more useful, compared to adding nine spells (some of which may not be useful).
And sure casting spells without failure is nice, but your squishy anyways.

[jiriku]

Casting in armor is no biggie at level 15. At that point, it's a small fraction of your WBL to buy a thistledown githcraft mithril chain shirt and a mithril buckler, so even a straight sorcerer or wizard can easily cast in armor by then anyway without going through any class-based gymnastics.

The real concern for me would be what this prestige class does to the game world, since to assume an organization of ordained arcanists is also to assume a collection of divine spells in arcane scroll form and arcane spells in divine scroll form, ready to be snapped up by wizards and archivists who can get access to them. I'd suggest that cross-power source scrolls (divine to arcane or vice versa) can only be learned and cast by characters who have the Deeper Understanding class feature.

[Kobold-Bard]

For Prep Casters like Wizards is Deeper Understanding applied on the go, or when they prepare their spells for the day do they choose which will be arcane & which will be divine?

[Reluctance]

On reflection, for a class with only three features beyond adding another spell to your repertoire, I might be tempted to throw in one or two "cast domain spells at +1 level", and the capstone might be better off as the ability to spontaneously cast domain spells. Casting as both arcane and divine is nice, and should be somewhere on the progression (possibly as a Geomancer-esque gradual progression), but not really exciting as the ultimate expression of a class.

This just stood out to me, but domains don't have orisons. A domain's granted power is pretty boss, so it's not like first level suffers for it, but Divine Inspiration (0) is an ability that shouldn't actually exist.

For jiriku's worry about things mucking about in-world, it's not actually that big a hassle. If wizards and sorcerers could learn cure spells from any arcane curative scroll, they'd have picked them off of bards ages ago. Most people are set in their lists. Archivists are the only exception, and if somebody is going cheesing one of those, they're not going to need this class to start messing up your game.

[Tyndmyr]

Casting in armor is no biggie at level 15. At that point, it's a small fraction of your WBL to buy a thistledown githcraft mithril chain shirt and a mithril buckler, so even a straight sorcerer or wizard can easily cast in armor by then anyway without going through any class-based gymnastics.

It's a nifty bonus, but I agree, casting in armor is not that huge of a thing. It is frequently overvalued by WOTC. The main goal is really the domain for spont casters, with the other abilities offering some nice options, but relatively little in straightforward power.

The goal is not so much to compete with top tier options for wizards as it is to provide an easy way to get into the arcane/divine concept with a variety of classes. Note that you can enter easily via even bard, hexblade, etc. Even for wizard, it probably compares favorably with other methods of doing the arcane/divine thing. It doesn't displace them, but


The real concern for me would be what this prestige class does to the game world, since to assume an organization of ordained arcanists is also to assume a collection of divine spells in arcane scroll form and arcane spells in divine scroll form, ready to be snapped up by wizards and archivists who can get access to them. I'd suggest that cross-power source scrolls (divine to arcane or vice versa) can only be learned and cast by characters who have the Deeper Understanding class feature.

It's not enough for a spell to merely be arcane for a wizard to learn it...it also has to be on your class list. Otherwise, wizards could already scoop up CLW and such from bards.

Archivist...sure. But there are already a number of existing routes to this, most notorious of which is Alternative Source Spell, a feat that does this same thing for Mystic Theurges. So...no real change. That stuff mostly only applies only in TO exercises anyway.


Kobold, that's an excellent point. I need to clarify this point, and it should be exactly like Alt Source Spell for consistency's sake, so I need to look that up.

Reluctance, good point. I'll drop the orisons bit. The "cast domain spells at +1 CL" is a nice touch, I believe I'll rework the abilities to tie that in. It's not ridiculous, and it works equally well for everyone who takes the class.

[Benly]

My only real concern with this is that it leads very smoothly into Dweomerkeeper with no lost caster levels, but really that's more a problem with Dweomerkeeper than anything else. On the whole, this is a straightforward PrC - it's not going to compete with the high-end arcane PrC options, but it doesn't seem to be meant to. Definitely well worth considering for the classes it's aimed at.