How to defeat Z

[GSFB]

Does Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion have spell resistance?

[Esprit15]

I thought the exact same thing a few days ago. V might not have it prepared today.

[Lither]

Stop giving the shippers ideas! :smalltongue:

I've assumed that it works on similar rules to the Black Tentacles, no, in other words.

[Psyren]

Also, since flight explicitly allows you to avoid ESToFI, it's probably not the best tactic while they're in the air.

[Phishfood]

I thought the exact same thing a few days ago. V might not have it prepared today.

How could anyone not prepare such a spell? I mean honestly.

also my vote goes with the roy method - big pointy stick.

[Shale]

I vote for the physical aftereffects of evocation. SR doesn't apply against a collapsing ceiling, for instance.

[Psyren]

I vote for the physical aftereffects of evocation. SR doesn't apply against a collapsing ceiling, for instance.

It doesn't, but Z can teleport and V can't, so collapsing the ceiling may not be the brightest idea.

In addition, lots of evocations simply don't do structural damage. Fireball explodes with no pressure, prismatic spray/magic missile only affect creatures, scorching ray is equally useless etc.

It's a crappy school really.

[Adeptus]

Also, since flight explicitly allows you to avoid ESToFI, it's probably not the best tactic while they're in the air.

The chimera was in flight when V did the bad-touching.

[Psyren]

The chimera was in flight when V did the bad-touching.

No, read again - it landed after his fireball, was on the ground (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html), V cast the spell, then it flew away (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html) after being violated (before being smacked down by the Belkster.)

[Holy_Knight]

I vote for the physical aftereffects of evocation. SR doesn't apply against a collapsing ceiling, for instance.

This is the kind of thing I was thinking. How about using Bugsby's grasping hand to pick up a slab of rubble, and use that to slam Z into a wall? Spell resistance could protect him from the hand itself, but not the stone it's holding...

If he doesn't have a way to indirectly damage him like that, then I think it's time to turn to illusions in order to escape/regroup or at least make Z waste some spells on false targets.

[ScrapperTBP]

This is the kind of thing I was thinking. How about using Bugsby's grasping hand to pick up a slab of rubble, and use that to slam Z into a wall? Spell resistance could protect him from the hand itself, but not the stone it's holding...

If he doesn't have a way to indirectly damage him like that, then I think it's time to turn to illusions in order to escape/regroup or at least make Z waste some spells on false targets.

Can V cast illusions? I do not remember her ever casting such a spell. I thought she used her intelligence to guide Elan through his illusions not from experience.

[Psyren]

Can V cast illusions? I do not remember her ever casting such a spell. I thought she used her intelligence to guide Elan through his illusions not from experience.

V can cast illusions:

Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html)
Veil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

V's banned schools are most likely Conjuration and Necromancy (which aligns with the two wizards he was given access to during the splice.)

[GSFB]

my other thought was to employ his experience learned fighting ABD and make use of his familiar (with possible aid from Qarr, who doesn't want V to die):

grapple Z in the air - and while grappling, cast an anti-magic field. the two of them fall. can a last minute assist from two familiars keep V from death on impact?

[TSED]

my other thought was to employ his experience learned fighting ABD and make use of his familiar (with possible aid from Qarr, who doesn't want V to die):

grapple Z in the air - and while grappling, cast an anti-magic field. the two of them fall. can a last minute assist from two familiars keep V from death on impact?

Standard issue scimitars. My bet is that Z would come out on top from that scenario.

[Esprit15]

Standard issue scimitars. My bet is that Z would come out on top from that scenario.
He's not carrying them.

[LtNOWIS]

In addition, lots of evocations simply don't do structural damage. Fireball explodes with no pressure, prismatic spray/magic missile only affect creatures, scorching ray is equally useless etc.

It's a crappy school really.
Well, even before he joined the party, (Origin of the PCs spoilers) V used Evocation to blow up an entire tower in the Iron Chef parody contest. So there's definitely precedent for Evocation creating some pretty major physical effects, with a fireball-like spell no less.

[GSFB]

unless he has quick draw or gloves of storage or something, scimitars won't come into play if V initiates a grapple attack.

[Anarion]

Perhaps V could use the Transformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm) spell and rush into a grapple with Z? That might actually work pretty well if all of Z's protections are focused around resisting magic.

[Blisstake]

Well, the tentacles are a conjuration spell, and I think V cast that before it was determined what his prohibited spells were. So I don't think we're going to see that spell again.

Anyway, I think V should go for a dispel magic.

[Chuck Peirce]

Anyway, I think V should go for a dispel magic.

Yeah, that would be the obvious choice. Both characters presumably have a caster level in the upper teens, though, so Greater Dispel would probably be necessary. Given past experiences with needing to dispel stuff, I would expect Vaarsuvius to keep a couple copies memorized, though there are so many other good level 6 spells.

[TimeWizard]

Assuming another OotS member comes, V could use counterspell to hold off Z while someone else does the battling. Or she could use counterspell to delay Z until help arrives.

[KingofMadCows]

There should be some variant of Bugsby's Hand that can be used to bypass SR. Maybe Bugsby's Boulder Throwing Hand.

[Esprit15]

Doesn't magic missile bypass spell resistance?

[Blisstake]

No, and that would take a while to do enough damage anyway.

[Esprit15]

No, and that would take a while to do enough damage anyway.

Dang, could have sworn it did. Oh well, I forgot that V banned evocation anyways.

[Holy_Knight]

Dang, could have sworn it did. Oh well, I forgot that V banned evocation anyways.

Actually, he specialized in evocation. He banned conjuration and necromancy.

[Esprit15]

*feels stupid* :smallsigh:

[GSFB]

In their first duel, V used Magic Missile and Z blocked it with Shield.

As for ESToFI, since V made it up, it could be an evocation.

[calam]

I think it depends on how serious the win is:

If he decides to make it a funny then Z will waste all his higher level spell slots on silent spells. :smallamused:


If it will be serious I guess the common "Bigby's grasping hand + chunk of the arena's architecture." Idea is most likely

[AlexanderRM]

also my vote goes with the roy method - big pointy stick.

Assuming another OotS member comes, V could use counterspell to hold off Z while someone else does the battling. Or she could use counterspell to delay Z until help arrives.

The first one sounds like the basic idea I was getting, the second goes for more detailed tactics though might not be necessary.

Basically, Z's defenses and superiority is focused solely around fighting V. His (?) spell resistance makes V virtually useless against him, but would have no effect on any other order member. For example, if Belkar were out there, then he could fight Z (either using his ring of Jumping +20 repeatedly or having V cast fly on him) while V blasted the Kobold. I imagine switching up is a fairly standard method of fighting evil counterparts, and in this case would make a good deal of sense, mechanics-wise.

Now, the obvious issue, of course, is that Belkar doesn't really look like he's likely to enter the fight anytime soon. The only way I could see this happening would be if he was alerted via Mr. Scruffy, in which case he would immediately go after the Kobold... this would probably require first for him to start fighting his counterpart (who I imagine would also be specialized against him), then for him and/or V to realize that while their opponents are highly effective against them, they could be defeated easily if they were to switch opponents.


Long story short, yeah, the way to defeat Z is to hit him (?) repeatedly with a big pointy stick. :smallcool:

[Valwyn]

Now, the obvious issue, of course, is that Belkar doesn't really look like he's likely to enter the fight anytime soon. The only way I could see this happening would be if he was alerted via Mr. Scruffy, in which case he would immediately go after the Kobold... this would probably require first for him to start fighting his counterpart (who I imagine would also be specialized against him), then for him and/or V to realize that while their opponents are highly effective against them, they could be defeated easily if they were to switch opponents.

The problem with this is that Belkar probably doesn't care about V and he will take his time with the kobold, so... yeah, V seems to be screwed.

V could still try to lower Z's SR, though. For example, Spell Vulnerability:

SPELL VULNERABILITY
Transmutation
Level: Cleric 4, sorcerer/wizard 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: No

A violet spray springs from your fingertips and wraps around your opponent. It fades into a dull purple glow, which attracts spell energies as opposed to shrugging them off.

This spell reduces the subject’s spell resistance by 1 per caster level (maximum reduction 15). This reduction can’t lower a subject’s spell resistance below 0.

[Blisstake]

I believe V only uses core spells however.

[Cornelius Grim]

I believe V only uses core spells however.

Tsukiko doesn't. I don't see a reason why V can't for once. Of course, they already made a "Core Spell" joke, so there's no reason to do it again. But maybe V can make an exception. I don't know, but I hope V lives. V's cool. :smallfrown:

[GSFB]

I believe V only uses core spells however.

Ahem... go back to post #1...

[Chuck Peirce]

Now, the obvious issue, of course, is that Belkar doesn't really look like he's likely to enter the fight anytime soon. The only way I could see this happening would be if he was alerted via Mr. Scruffy, in which case he would immediately go after the Kobold... this would probably require first for him to start fighting his counterpart (who I imagine would also be specialized against him), then for him and/or V to realize that while their opponents are highly effective against them, they could be defeated easily if they were to switch opponents.

Yukyuk is making sneak attacks from a mount while dual-wielding crossbows. That already requires a fair bit of specialization, and Sneak Attack and ranged weapons are practically worthless if Belkar engages him in melee.

For Yukyuk to counter Belkar, I'm thinking some kind of cheese is required:

Hide in Plain Sight or something similar could take advantage of Belkar's lousy Spot modifier and allow cheesy sneak attacks.

Alternately, or perhaps in addition, Yukyuk appears to be able to fire opposite the direction his mount is running: if his mount is faster than Belkar (questionable), Yukyuk may be able to cheese just by staying out of Belkar's range.

Of course, such a counter to Belkar would be appropriately similar to how Zzdrti cheesily counters Vaarsuvius.

[Blisstake]

Tsukiko doesn't. I don't see a reason why V can't for once. Of course, they already made a "Core Spell" joke, so there's no reason to do it again. But maybe V can make an exception. I don't know, but I hope V lives. V's cool. :smallfrown:

V will definitely live here. Anyway, the biggest reason I don't think V is going to use a non-core spell is because it would feel like a complete cop-out if it turned out he wins by using a spell no one expects him to have access to. In addition, it's rare for non-core (but still 3.5 material) abilities to show up, especially with the Order. The only one to use non-core (and even, then he's not using an official D&D Prestige Class) is Elan, but we were informed well before-hand when he would be using it. V just using a non-core spell out of nowhere without any comment would seem completely out of place.


Ahem... go back to post #1...

What does that have to do with anything? Black Tentacles is a core spell, but because of copyright issues, The Giant had to change the name a bit... which he had some fun with.

[Esprit15]

Copyright issues? The whole comic is technically a copyright issue by that logic. What about all the other spells, classes, feats, etc?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'm putting my current vote in with the "Roy" camp...though is it too early to pull the plot device of the special move he learned?

[Blisstake]

They are allowed per 3.5 SRD. Any spell with a name in it, however, is not.

Occassionaly he pushes it, mostly because no one really cares enough to sue over it.

[Esprit15]

They are allowed per 3.5 SRD. Any spell with a name in it, however, is not.

Occassionaly he pushes it, mostly because no one really cares enough to sue over it.

:smallconfused: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm) It's clicky! :D

[satorian]

Well, that and the comic is a clear parody. He could probably get away with using the exact terminology, but why risk a litigious WoTC. Also, doing it this way actually lampshades the copyright issue, making a double joke.

[King of Nowhere]

As zzd'tri has prepared hgimself with so much protections from wizardry, i say getting a figther with a fly spell is the best move here. Of course V don't a fighter type at hand at the moment.
Some non-core spell would surely do the trick, but it wouyld feel a cheap deus-ex machina, at least to me, to use a power that the characther wasn't previosuly established to have. I follow sanderson's first law (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/article/40/Sandersons-First-Law) on that.
Anyway, V probably don't have such non-core spells, so at the moment V can't defeat Z. If he could swap opponents with Roy, he would be perfect, since V can easily beat thog by targeting his will save, while Roy will be able to consistently damage Z.

BY the way, what kind of horribly overpowered spell is spell vulnerability? the whole point of spell resistance is to balance wizards a bit, and suddenly you just need a third level spell to ignore that.

[Psyren]

I believe V only uses core spells however.

He pretty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html) plainly doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html)

[Eldest]

The first is a spell V had been researching, and I don't see which of the spells in the second is non-core.

[Blisstake]

:smallconfused: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm) It's clicky! :D

That is Black Tentacles. If you look in the PHB, it's called "Evard's Black Tentacles." He is casting the classic core spell - he's just renaming it. Same with the Bigsby's/Bugsby's Hand abilities.


He pretty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html) plainly doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html)

The first one is researched, and not from a non-core 3.5 book. Plus, the spell ended up being pretty inconsequential, and not something that ended up deciding an important battle. If V is going to research another spell which will help him later, we'll likely get an indication of it ahead of time.

The second one isn't actually a spell.

[Kish]

He is casting the classic core spell - he's just renaming it.
That would take more evidence than your say-so even if it wasn't functionally impossible (Evard's Black Tentacles is Conjuration, Vaarsuvius' barred school).

There's no problem with the spell Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion because that apparently-evocation spell isn't official D&D at all. Nor are there any D&D spells named after Evan. Obviously it's based on Evard's Black Tentacles, but that doesn't mean anything to the relevant copyright laws here.

[Blisstake]

Functionally, it worked the exact same way as Black Tentacles, but you are right in that it could be different - however, I doubt that much thought has been put into it.

As for the conjuration thing, I believe that was put there before it was decided that V had banned conjuration. I don't think there's any reason a spell that summons giant tentacles wouldn't be conjuration :smallconfused:

[Kish]

Functionally, it worked the exact same way as Black Tentacles,
Where are you getting that?

The implications of what the tentacles did is very much not "the same way" as Evard's Black Tentacles, much less "the exact same way." Are you saying every spell that creates tentacles which in any way attack an enemy (...regardless of color, regardless of the presence or absence of spikes on the tentacles, regardless of whether said spikes are central to what the tentacles do, as part of a hentai joke...) is just a different name for the spell Evard's Black Tentacles?

[Blisstake]

No, I'm saying it grappled him, did damage, and stopped working once it flew out of range... exactly how core Black Tentacles would work.

However, the point of this thread is thinking of ways V can beat Z, and the point I was trying to make is that he's not likely to win using a non-core spell completely out of the blue. Not that V is incapable of casting spells that don't appear in the PHB.

[WhamBamSam]

The problem with this is that Belkar probably doesn't care about V and he will take his time with the kobold, so... yeah, V seems to be screwed.I think that V and Belkar are fonder of one another than they let on, though Belkar still probably cares more about Mr. Scruffy. Anyway, I could see something like this playing out...

*Belkar chases Yukyuk into the area where V and Z are fighting*
:vaarsuvius: I cannot circumvent your spell resistance, but at the very least I can destroy your ally before I meet my end. Disintegrate. *Yukyuk is reduced to dust.*
:belkar: What the hell?! I was going to make something with his head. It's a running gag with me. How would you like it if I just killed your counterpart without warning? *Inflicts stabity death upon Z.*
:vaarsuvius: I like it very much in fact. As much as it pains me to say so, you have just saved my life. Thank you.
:belkar: DAMN IT!

Would fit very well with their dynamic, though I suppose it would require that Yukyuk only have one level in Rogue so as not to have evasion.

[zimmerwald1915]

I think that V and Belkar are fonder of one another than they let on, though Belkar still probably cares more about Mr. Scruffy. Anyway, I could see something like this playing out...

*Belkar chases Yukyuk into the area where V and Z are fighting*
:vaarsuvius: I cannot circumvent your spell resistance, but at the very least I can destroy your ally before I meet my end. Disintegrate. *Yukyuk is reduced to dust.*
:belkar: What the hell?! I was going to make something with his head. It's a running gag with me. How would you like it if I just killed your counterpart without warning? *Inflicts stabity death upon Z.*
:vaarsuvius: I like it very much in fact. As much as it pains me to say so, you have just saved my life. Thank you.
:belkar: DAMN IT!

Would fit very well with their dynamic, though I suppose it would require that Yukyuk only have one level in Rogue so as not to have evasion.
Disintegrate is a ranged touch spell provoking a Fortitude save. Evasion's got nothing to do with it.

[WhamBamSam]

Disintegrate is a ranged touch spell provoking a Fortitude save. Evasion's got nothing to do with it.Whoops. I'm not terribly familiar with the mechanics of the game.

[Esprit15]

Whoops. I'm not terribly familiar with the mechanics of the game.

Don't worry, it just makes your idea more possible. I personally would find it hillarious if Belkar ended up helping V while trying to anger V.

[Kobold-Bard]

:vaarsuvius: knows Polymorph. She could just hulk out and beat Z to death as a giant or something.

[Esprit15]

:vaarsuvius: knows Polymorph. She could just hulk out and beat Z to death as a giant or something.

When has V used it to become somthing actually threatening? *goes to check*

EDIT: The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm)
Last I remember, V has four HD. No hulking out for hir.
EDIT of EDIT: Warning: Poster likely is making some sort of mistake in his understanding of the rules.

[Kobold-Bard]

When has V used it to become somthing actually threatening? *goes to check*

EDIT: The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm)
Last I remember, V has four HD. No hulking out for hir.

As far as I know she's only used it once, to become a badger. The Dragon-form was a Soul-Splice fuelled Shapechange.

And you think :vaarsuvius: only has 4HD?

HD = class level for spells like Polymorph, so she has ~13 or so (I forget what the running tally is on her level).

[Esprit15]

You think :vaarsuvius: only has 4HD?

HD = class level for spells like Polymorph, so she has ~13 or so (I forget what the running tally is on her level).

I edited my post again, seeing as I likely was making some sort of stupid mistake.

EDIT: Ah-ha, I think I know where I messed up: Wizards have a d4 hit die, but that doesn't mean they have four hit dice. :smallredface:

[Kobold-Bard]

I edited my post again, seeing as I likely was making some sort of stupid mistake.

Ah, fair enough.

I still want to see Vaarsuvius the Giant.

[Esprit15]

Ah, fair enough.

I still want to see Vaarsuvius the Giant.

I agree, though it would kinda go against hir character development. Oh well.

[Kobold-Bard]

I agree, though it would kinda go against hir character development. Oh well.

"...unless I find myself personally threatened." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html)

She seems pretty threatened atm.

[Esprit15]

"...unless I find myself personally threatened." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html)

She seems pretty threatened atm.

I read through the comics twice and I still am just as unobservant as the first time. :smallsigh: Well in that case... SMASH HIM V!!!

[Kobold-Bard]

I read through the comics twice and I still am just as unobservant as the first time. :smallsigh: Well in that case... SMASH HIM V!!!

HELL YEAH!! :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

As far as I know she's only used it once, to become a badger. The Dragon-form was a Soul-Splice fuelled Shapechange.

And you think :vaarsuvius: only has 4HD?

HD = class level for spells like Polymorph, so she has ~13 or so (I forget what the running tally is on her level).
Geekery pegs her minimum level at 15.

[Dalek-K]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm

Z is finished :D

[Esprit15]

Material Component: A potion of Bull's Strength. Problem?

[Dalek-K]

Off screen V picked one up?
When has material components really played a major role in any fight or even mentioned during a fight?

[Esprit15]

Off screen V picked one up?
When has material components really played a major role in any fight or even mentioned during a fight?
When it cost money. See Roy's resurection for an example. Remember that other components can be ignored if they are less than one gp if you have a spell pouch or eschew materials.

[Dalek-K]

That wasn't my question though. During a fight when has anyone stopped and said "Oh no I don't have the material component..."

After ABD I'm sure V will be prepared for pretty much any spell that he/her can cast.

[Esprit15]

That wasn't my question though. During a fight when has anyone stopped and said "Oh no I don't have the material component..."

After ABD I'm sure V will be prepared for pretty much any spell that he/her can cast.

But almost no spell requires any materials over 1gp.

[satorian]

Force cage does, and that was cast willy nilly.

[Esprit15]

Force cage does, and that was cast willy nilly.
Point. Thank you for the correction.

[Kish]

That wasn't my question though. During a fight when has anyone stopped and said "Oh no I don't have the material component..."
That's an arbitrarily specific line to draw.

Not having material components (for Resurrection) have played a huge role in the story. I can't imagine why Rich would go, "Oh, but this is during a fight, so I'd better just handwave the Potion component." If he wants to handwave it, he easily can as he did for Forcecage; if he wants it to be an issue, as he did for Resurrection, it will be an issue. That said, Vaarsuvius probably hasn't prepared any spells s/he doesn't have the material components for.

[Dalek-K]

And your point is?

This thread is about how to defeat Z correct? Not "Oh but he doesn't have the material component for X and Y so how else can he defeat him"

You could say "But he doesn't have any material component or the feat Eschew Materials therefore that spell won't work."

If V used Transformation (V is already flying) all V would have to do is get close and clobber the hell out of Z.

Force Cage Material Component (from the srd): Ruby dust worth 1,500 gp, which is tossed into the air and disappears when you cast the spell.

So it is more likely he has Ruby dust worth 1,500 gp than a 300 gp potion? (well 25 gp if V still had one from way back then...)

[Kish]

And your point is?

Plainly stated.


This thread is about how to defeat Z correct?

Looking at the initial post in the thread, it seems to be about Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion. I doubt Vaarsuvius will defeat Zz'dtri by using Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion; I doubt even more than s/he'll do so by using Terren's Transformation, because Vaarsuvius seems really unlikely to look at a spell which amounts to, "You lose your spellcasting ability and turn into a warrior" without snorting.

I get that you don't want to defend your suggested idea, but you should just not do so then, not try to claim issues people raise with it are either contrary to the comic because of a line as arbitrary as the one you drew, or somehow something that shouldn't be posted in this thread.

[Sholos]

Does Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion have spell resistance?

If they're anything like Evard's Black Tentacles, then they're immune to everything short of dispel magic anyways.

[Anarion]

Plainly stated.

Looking at the initial post in the thread, it seems to be about Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion. I doubt Vaarsuvius will defeat Zz'dtri by using Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion; I doubt even more than s/he'll do so by using Terren's Transformation, because Vaarsuvius seems really unlikely to look at a spell which amounts to, "You lose your spellcasting ability and turn into a warrior" without snorting.

I get that you don't want to defend your suggested idea, but you should just not do so then, not try to claim issues people raise with it are either contrary to the comic because of a line as arbitrary as the one you drew, or somehow something that shouldn't be posted in this thread.


Having suggested transformation 2 pages ago, I still think it has a logical shot at being used. Part of V's growth is learning to use spells intelligently rather than just go for pure power. So, although I agree that V in the past would have looked at Transformation and dismissed it out of hand, recent V might have thought that a single use of the spell could come in extremely handy under certain circumstances.

Personally though, I think illusions are the most likely route. V has previously coached Elan in the intelligent use of illusions, they all ignore spell resistance, and even a silent image used well could buy V time to set up an attack or escape.

[pendell]

I'm going to argue that, for the sake of plot and V's character development,
V will have to find some non-magical way to defeat Zz'dtri. Remember that the last arc shows the limits of arcane power, and V only became effective when V used much less available power intelligently.
Xykon's monologue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) from that arc comes to mind.

SPELLS don't equal power. There are other kinds of power. In Xykon's case, power took the form of a +X bonus to listen checks and the ability to throttle V with his bare hands.

Readers of SOD know that Xykon once defeated a mighty wizard the same way. Utterly defeated in a contest of magical ability, Xykon pulled a grade-school stunt to sneak attack him, then beat him to death while unconscious with a blunt object.

That, I suspect, is why Xykon reached epic level despite not having great intelligence or wisdom. He is very good at using raw magic, but he also knows when to put the magic away and rely on brute force.

If we turned the magic off , what assets would V have?

My first thought is using magic on an indirect target -- like a wall or a roof -- to kill Z under the rubble might work. Z appears to have narrowly specialized specifically to fight V. Get him out of that specialty, he should be completely unprepared.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[legomaster00156]

Personally though, I think illusions are the most likely route. V has previously coached Elan in the intelligent use of illusions, they all ignore spell resistance, and even a silent image used well could buy V time to set up an attack or escape.

However, most Illusions allow a Will save for disbelief. Remind me, what is a Wizard's specialized saving throw?

[Shale]

Fortitude, of course.

[Blisstake]

However, most Illusions allow a Will save for disbelief. Remind me, what is a Wizard's specialized saving throw?

Will, but then consider that wisdom is not a key statistic for wizards. Let's say V pulls out a 5th level illusion spell, and has a +6 modifier to intelligence. The DC of that illusion will be 21.

Now let's say Z is level 14 (or 15, same result). He gets a base will save of 9. If he has 10 wisdom, that gives him a total of +9, making him more likely to fail than not.

Of course, we don't know Z's stats or equipment, (or what level spell V will use), so we can't tell the exact change, but an illusion would still have a moderate chance of success.

[legomaster00156]

Let's say V pulls out a 5th level illusion spell, and has a +6 modifier to intelligence.

V is explicitly stated to have 18 INT, a.k.a. a +4 mod. Granted, even then, with 10 WIS, Z would still have a 50/50 chance, but as he prepared to be trapped in a Forcecage, I would expect him to be prepared for Illusions (he appears to know which schools are V's barred ones).

[KingofMadCows]

If Z doesn't have daylight adaptation then a daylight spell would blind him.

[Kish]

V is explicitly stated to have 18 INT, a.k.a. a +4 mod.
Vaarsuvius is explicitly stated to have had 18 Intelligence at strip #31. The characters aren't static.

[legomaster00156]

Vaarsuvius is explicitly stated to have had 18 Intelligence at strip #31. The characters aren't static.

I think we would've noticed if (s)he had picked up a headband or something since then... it has been well over 700 strips. Otherwise, the entire party has leveled up at least 5 times to boost hir INT to 20, or 13 times to boost it to 22.

[Shale]

The last time V showed the limits of his/her INT, in the pre-Soul Splice fight against Mama Black Dragon, it was 23.

[Kish]

I think we would've noticed if (s)he had picked up a headband or something since then... it has been well over 700 strips. Otherwise, the entire party has leveled up at least 5 times to boost hir INT to 20, or 13 times to boost it to 22.
Well, considering that the FAQ states that the characters are (=were at the start) levels 5-7, and Vaarsuvius has recently cast an eighth-level spell, demonstrating himself/herself to be at least level 15...

(Which isn't to say that I agree we should assume no magical items were added offpanel; I don't.)

[Blisstake]

V had plenty of time to pick up a +INT item in Azure city. And I think he has to have at least 22 based on the CLaG thread... which isn't always accurate, but I think it is in this case.

[Chuck Peirce]

(Which isn't to say that I agree we should assume no magical items were added offpanel; I don't.)

Depends entirely on how the magic item is used. We can assume characters invest all their skill points, after all (some mentioned on-panel, some not). Why shouldn't they fill all their equipment slots? Basic functionality in a magic item costs orders of magnitude less than the really fancy items, and we know members of The Order can afford at least some fancy items.

Whether an item (or skill) gets mentioned seems to be a function of storytelling. For example, the loot from The Dungeon of Dorukan was covered both as a plot point/joke about loot distribution, and as a setup for later mention of some of the items.

I think this topic came up over Vaarsuvius's intelligence? A +2 intelligence item is both easy to acquire (for a wizard of that level) and thoroughly uninteresting story-wise. There's no reason to think Vaarsuvius doesn't have at least a +2 intelligence item, despite the fact that it was never mentioned.

[Warmage]

Personally, i think something like this would happen:

:vaarsuvius: "Since we've last dueled, I have learned two important lessons. First, power comes in many forms, not necessarily magical. Second..."
*polymorphs into pink dragon*
:vaarsuvius: "even without using magic, a dragon is still a dragon."


After all, polymorph is only a 4th level spell and I think we could use some more pink dragon V.

[Kobold-Bard]

Personally, i think something like this would happen:

:vaarsuvius: "Since we've last dueled, I have learned two important lessons. First, power comes in many forms, not necessarily magical. Second..."
*polymorphs into pink dragon*
:vaarsuvius: "even without using magic, a dragon is still a dragon."


After all, polymorph is only a 4th level spell and I think we could use some more pink dragon V.

I reckon the Empress might have something to say about another dragon in her sky.

Actually, angry Empress getting involved would be cool.

[EmperorSarda]

Personally, i think something like this would happen:

:vaarsuvius: "Since we've last dueled, I have learned two important lessons. First, power comes in many forms, not necessarily magical. Second..."
*polymorphs into pink dragon*
:vaarsuvius: "even without using magic, a dragon is still a dragon."


After all, polymorph is only a 4th level spell and I think we could use some more pink dragon V.

This is the smartest thing V. can do actually. Although I would not be surprised if Z. has dispel magic prepared for such a spell.

[zimmerwald1915]

This suggestion keeps coming up, and there's a bit of a problem with it. Z is a transmuter. How is V fighting on Z's home turf, so to speak, where Z has more Trans spells prepared and probably a better knowledge of how best to use them, a smart move for V?

[EmperorSarda]

This suggestion keeps coming up, and there's a bit of a problem with it. Z is a transmuter. How is V fighting on Z's home turf, so to speak, where Z has more Trans spells prepared and probably a better knowledge of how best to use them, a smart move for V?

What else should V do? V hasn't been able to overcome Z's spell resistance, so that eliminates a majority of the spells that he can use.

So of all the spells that we have seen V. cast, that leaves him with his Bugsby spells, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (which won't work in the air anyways), and Invisibility. Plus the bluffs such as Owl's Wisdom, heroism and whatnot that he can cast on hirself. V. could always cast suggestion on Qarr maybe? But given what V. has left, polymorph does seem the way to go.

If he can overcome spell resistance, then he should use Dimensional Anchor and then use the Forcecage spell again if he can.

[werik]

Another casting of Bugsby's Cat Retrieving Hand might be in order. Mr. Scruffy will settle his hash.

[zero]

Force cage does, and that was cast willy nilly.
Ah-ha! I always wondered what kind of half-ass force cage can't hold a simple antimagic shell!

Toss in a bit of ruby dust V!

[miri]

Can Shout - or Greater Shout, since V already has level 8 slot(s) - be countered by spell resistance? SRD states "Yes (object)", I'm not sure what it means. And if Shouts are not affected by SR, well... Z's only hope would be a Fortitude save.

[werik]

After reading the current strip I have a theory on what Vaarsuvius might try to do or at least a tactic that I might try in her situation. I would: Round One: Grab both of Yuk-Yuk's crossbows and move away from him by 30'. (She would still be invisible because she didn't attack him). Round Two: I would cast Veil making YukYuk look like Vaarsuvius and transforming herself into the kobold. Then I would either call for Zz'dtri to come over. Since Veil requires a will save to prevent being transformed it is unlikely that Yuk-yuk (if he is indeed an opposite of Belkar) will succeed. Since the illusion would also make Vaarsuvius smell like Yuk-yuk and vice versa, she might even be able to convince Sir Scraggly to attack Yuk-yuk as well. When either the illusion is revealed or Yuk-yuk dies, whichever comes first, Vaarsuvius would then be armed with two crossbows with which he could fight Zz'dtri. This might, unfortunately, lead either Belkar or Mr. Scruffy to attack and possibly kill Vaarsuvius, however, if they stumble across her in the transformed state.
While this probably won't happen, after imagining all of that I really want it to come to pass.

[Esprit15]

I was thinking emerging more like this:

V kills/disables Yukyuk (probably the latter unless they want to make a joke against the running gag of Belkar brand kobold-bowls/headgear/etc.), takes Haley's bow, comments on it having been years since he/she used a bow, and starts firing at a very surprised and unprepared Z.

:vaarsuvius: SNEAK ATTACK!!! Hm, I think I'm beginning to see why Miss Starshine enjoys doing that.

[Holy_Knight]

I knew illusions were the way to go! Now V is really applying that intellect. :)

[zero]

Whoa, Z spent a whole turn taunting V? Talk about confidence...

... hmmm, most probably he was readying some counterspelling and wasn't prepared for Illusion...

[pendell]

I was thinking emerging more like this:

V kills/disables Yukyuk (probably the latter unless they want to make a joke against the running gag of Belkar brand kobold-bowls/headgear/etc.), takes Haley's bow, comments on it having been years since he/she used a bow, and starts firing at a very surprised and unprepared Z.

:vaarsuvius: SNEAK ATTACK!!! Hm, I think I'm beginning to see why Miss Starshine enjoys doing that.

Problem with a bow is that it is negated by Protection From Arrows. Even if Zzdtri doesn't have it, it's 1d6 damage isn't it? And you have to actually hit with it as well. In V's hands, a bow would be more a harassment tool than something to actually kill with.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Prowl]

Clearly the best way for V to defeat Z is to change the terms of the encounter. V is not going to be able to overcome an equivalent-level drow specialist wizard who has further optimized his build* for the specific purpose of defeating V.



*by the way, is this only the second instance of an actually optimized character in OotS? (The first was the half-ogre with the spiked chain)

[Esprit15]

Problem with a bow is that it is negated by Protection From Arrows. Even if Zzdtri doesn't have it, it's 1d6 damage isn't it? And you have to actually hit with it as well. In V's hands, a bow would be more a harassment tool than something to actually kill with.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Seeing as his build is built specifically to counter V, it's unlikely. Also, 1d6 is better than 0. Plus isn't it a +5 bow? That's going to help.

[Shale]

+5 Icy Burst. And we've seen what happens when the burst kicks in.

[werik]

Protection from arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromArrows.htm) grants damage reduction 10/magic meaning that Haley's bow would bypass it and it is likewise probable that Yuk-Yuk's crossbows are magical and would subvert this spell as well. It is likely for this reason that V chose to cast stoneskin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneskin.htm) to avoid Yuk-yuk's attacks which grants damage reduction 10/adamantine. I agree with the idea that Zz'dtri likely does not have stoneskin prepared as he would not have thought it to be useful in a fight against Vaarsuvius.

Edit: Futhermore, Haley's bow is still with her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0789.html).

[martianmister]

According to the last strip: S/he can't beat him! :smalleek:

[hoff]

I think that V will steal some str damaging crossbow-bolts from the kobold and use it to neutralize Z like V was from the mercenary attack. Z probably has no AC increasing items or buffs.

[Dark Matter]

Charm Monster on Yuk-yuk and send him and his pet (and perhaps Belkar) against Z.

Illusion to make V look like Nale or Sabine and give orders for Z to retreat.

[Esprit15]

Charm Monster on Yuk-yuk and send him and his pet (and perhaps Belkar) against Z.

Illusion to make V look like Nale or Sabine and give orders for Z to retreat.
May work.

Not even Elan would be stupid enough to fall for something like that.

[Chuck Peirce]

Clearly the best way for V to defeat Z is to change the terms of the encounter. V is not going to be able to overcome an equivalent-level drow specialist wizard who has further optimized his build* for the specific purpose of defeating V.

^^This. And judging by strip 799, Vaarsuvius has an idea how to alter his/her strategy.

Step 1: Presumably shut down Yukyuk. Maybe a Polar Ray? Slow him down with a Wall of Ice? Maybe an enchantment spell? Vaarsuvius should be able to figure something out.

Step 2: Fight Z without Evocation spells. Maybe Tenser's Transformation? Roy's armor fell out of that bag, so it may be the same bag Haley put Roy's sword in, too.

Alternate Step 2: Run; let fellow party members deal with Z.

[TimeWizard]

This bothers me a little bit: Why wouldn't Z prepare True Seeing?

[Warmage]

This bothers me a little bit: Why wouldn't Z prepare True Seeing?

True Seeing has a material component that Z might be willing to use.


Material Component
An ointment for the eyes that costs 250 gp and is made from mushroom powder, saffron, and fat.

Also True Seeing is a 6th level spell and Z probably chose a more useful spell for that slot.

[t209]

Due to recent comic, V has left the match to fight the one that is not prepared for him. In other words, can blades and arrows be used on Z?

[Esprit15]

Due to recent comic, V has left the match to fight the one that is not prepared for him. In other words, can blades and arrows be used on Z?

That's what we all think.

[Ekul]

Why Enchant him? Haley clearly has more money in that one bag than Nale's paying him. All V has to do is convince him "There's more where that came from" and Z won't even be able to dispel.

[Dark Matter]

This bothers me a little bit: Why wouldn't Z prepare True Seeing?Invis is an illusion spell and quite a bit more subtle than V normally uses.

[TimeWizard]

Invis is an illusion spell and quite a bit more subtle than V normally uses.

But he does use it. He used it to run in azure city and he used to hide from Xykon. You could argue that Z didn't know about that, but Z clearly prepared Dimension Door in case of Forcecage, which V first used against the Black Dragon, which is even less likely to be known (Qarr wasn't there for that part, IIRC). If the IFCC has all the info and gave it to Qarr to relay to Z then it also wouldn't make sense that he couldn't be prepared for it.

When the Linear Guild went to replace Z with Pompei they actually referenced that V doesnt use conjuration or necromancy, which must have gotten back to Z. I have yet to see a plausible reason that if you were tailoring a build to beat V you wouldn't have any contingency for Invisibility.

In regards to Component Cost as a reason: Not good enough. If your goal is to kill one caster and your whole build is around it than you can shell out for component costs. Also, Roy mentions hand waving away minor costs and we never see V or Redcloak do any of the like when True Seeing was cast before.

[zimmerwald1915]

But he does use it. He used it to run in azure city and he used to hide from Xykon. You could argue that Z didn't know about that, but Z clearly prepared Dimension Door in case of Forcecage, which V first used against the Black Dragon, which is even less likely to be known (Qarr wasn't there for that part, IIRC). If the IFCC has all the info and gave it to Qarr to relay to Z then it also wouldn't make sense that he couldn't be prepared for it.
Qarr wa most certainly there.

[Gray Mage]

This bothers me a little bit: Why wouldn't Z prepare True Seeing?

Because it's a spell with SR: Yes (harmless). He'd have to supress his SR using a standard action in order to not be affected by his own SR.

[pendell]

In regards to Component Cost as a reason: Not good enough. If your goal is to kill one caster and your whole build is around it than you can shell out for component costs. Also, Roy mentions hand waving away minor costs and we never see V or Redcloak do any of the like when True Seeing was cast before.


Yes, but Zzd'tri's spell list and budget aren't infinite. It appears that Z assumes the encounter will revolve around V blasting away with direct damage spells until V admits defeat, which is exactly what happened the last time they fought. V was saved only by the intervention of lawyers.

The idea that V might try some form of indirect action seems to have slipped Z's mind. It's understandable because Z missed the character development in the last arc. Prior to that arc, V had only two solutions to all problems:

1) Raw arcane power.
2) MORE raw arcane power.

Much like the "get a bigger hammer" school of engineering.

Z appears to have optimized against this strategy, leaving him unprepared when V tried something different.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TinyMushroom]

In 799 it looks to me like V is about to switch places with Yukyuk...

[Psyren]

Because it's a spell with SR: Yes (harmless). He'd have to supress his SR using a standard action in order to not be affected by his own SR.

Incorrect. From the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance)


A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.

Z doesn't have to lower his SR to buff himself.

[Gray Mage]

Incorrect. From the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance)



Z doesn't have to lower his SR to buff himself.

Oh yes, I forgot about that.

[James Lu]

It's quite clear that Z would never survive a comprehensive, pre-prepared, well-thought out attack from the other members of the Order, he's ill-equipped to fight the other members of the Order, heck if the Order attacked Z without a plan, he'd be annihilated. Any good wizard would know to equip themselves with spells that would also give them some leverage against their opponent's allies.

Getting spells to counter V's spells from their last encounter was not a wise move. We can all expect major pwnage.

[Alex Warlorn]

This is the smartest thing V. can do actually. Although I would not be surprised if Z. has dispel magic prepared for such a spell.

I doubt it. He never saw V's fight with the mama dragon, and I doubt his new familiar would TELL HIM about it since he wants his master to effectively lose (which is in full contradiction to everything a familiar is supposed to do).

And it would it make a brilliant bit of call back.

[TimeWizard]

It appears that Z assumes the encounter will revolve around V blasting away with direct damage spells

As I already mentioned, this line of reasoning ignores the fact that Z prepared Dimension Door in the event of V using Force Cage, which is something she didn't do when they fought each other the first time, mean that Z must be aware of Vaarsuvius's more recent tactical changes.

Alternatively, if Z was just guessing out of likely options, why the hell wouldn't you have prepared a spell that thwarts several powerful and widely used spells? Girard Draketooth and Eugene Greenhilt are Illusionist, so its not like that school of magic is secret or uncommon.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Dimension Door is regarded as one of the most useful spells to have prepared in ANY situation:

Big monster grapples you? DDoor away
Force cage? DDoor Away
Rickety bridge over chasm of Doom(TM)?DDoor over it.
Need to get the hell away from anything? DDoor to some place else (400 ft +40/level is enough for most things)
Need a better tactical position (over a wall, bypassing some kind of blockage, etc)? DDoor to your hearts content.

So Z most likely didn't prepare DDoor, specifically due V's use of Forcecage, he prepared it cause it is one of the best defenses against anything, and a good counter to many "standard" Wizard spells.

[Chuck Peirce]

As I already mentioned, this line of reasoning ignores the fact that Z prepared Dimension Door in the event of V using Force Cage, which is something she didn't do when they fought each other the first time, mean that Z must be aware of Vaarsuvius's more recent tactical changes.

Alternatively, if Z was just guessing out of likely options, why the hell wouldn't you have prepared a spell that thwarts several powerful and widely used spells? Girard Draketooth and Eugene Greenhilt are Illusionist, so its not like that school of magic is secret or uncommon.

Besides, Burlew seems to treat knowledge of the AD&D rules like any other knowledge available in the OotS world. The information is out there, and characters who bothered to learn the rules know the rules. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Roy and Redcloak have ranks in Knowledge: D&D Rule Books and Profession: Dungeon Master.

I do agree with Pendell, though: Zz'dtri can be expected to have certain (ahem) blind spots in preparing to fight Vaarsuvius. The reason: It's funny. Zz'dtri is a heaping pile of cliches. One of those cliches is the quintessential counter-build: Spec everything to counter what a player character is best at, and never mind anything else. It's funny to have Zz'dtri pretend that Vaarsuvius wouldn't use any general utility wizard spells.

For anyone curious about the rules:
Glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm) and See Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/seeInvisibility.htm) (kind of) counter Invisibility and are both level 2 spells.

Force Cage is in Vaarsuvius's favored school (evocation), so even if Dimension Door weren't so hugely useful, we could expect Zz'dtri to learn it to counter Vaarsuvius.

[Prowl]

I've got it. Dire charm the kobold, and you get the dog free. Hopefully Z doesn't have too many dispels memorized - he probably wouldn't as he is relying on SR.

[Dark Matter]

I doubt it. He never saw V's fight with the mama dragon, and I doubt his new familiar would TELL HIM about it since he wants his master to effectively lose (which is in full contradiction to everything a familiar is supposed to do).Yeah, that. Being mis-advised by Quarr could explain a great deal. By the time V wants to use invis and sneak away she's normally lost... meaning Quarr *wants* him to do just that.

Further Forcecage is an Evocation spell. To a first approximation all Z had to do was go through the list of Evocation spells and make himself immune to them.

[TimeWizard]

So it doesn't really bother anyone else that V's plan could be thwarted by a handful of widely available and very useful spells?

I normally don't care much about other things, but OotS is a) really well written, and b) based on clearly defined (if often humorous) rules. That makes it worse when some clearly obvious plot hole sneaks through and sneak attacks me in the back.

[pendell]

So it doesn't really bother anyone else that V's plan could be thwarted by a handful of widely available and very useful spells?

I normally don't care much about other things, but OotS is a) really well written, and b) based on clearly defined (if often humorous) rules. That makes it worse when some clearly obvious plot hole sneaks through and sneak attacks me in the back.

The problem is that EITHER Z OR V could easily defeat the other if they carefully chose their spell list and their feats.

That's the major complaint about D&D 3 and 3.5 -- magic is such an overwhelming trump card that a properly prepared wizard >> everything else. At their level, I believe there is literally a spell for every possible contingency. And there's feats and magic items as well to provide additional coverage.

One of the few things that balance this is that few non-BBEGs have access to the complete spell list at any given time. So the trick isn't finding a tactic to which there is no possible counter -- at this level, no such tactic exists. The trick is to find the tactic that the enemy is not prepared to counter *at this time and this place*.

We saw that when V fought the druid in Cliffport. If V had happened to prepare sonic for that day, that entire arc would have been much shorter. Sonic would have solved all the problems with the trees -- except V hadn't prepared it .

It seems obvious that V prepared a standard spell list for today to cover a range of possible contingencies, while Z prepared specifically and solely to defeat an evoker mage using direct damage magic. Breaking contact and seeking to attack using a weapon that Z is unlikely to have prepared a counter to is the only plausible path to victory V has.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TimeWizard]

Sonic Damage was a huge rarity, and only ever came up that time. Remember that Leeky didn't think to guard against it, and V didn't prepare Sonic because its always overlooked (referencing how little its used in 3.5, natch). Invisibility isn't sonic damage, it's something common and its not affected by SR, so there's no reason it shouldn't be prepared for. Unless Z is doing this on purpose or something, it's going to keep bothering me.

[Prowl]

I've got it. Dire charm the kobold, and you get the dog free. Hopefully Z doesn't have too many dispels memorized - he probably wouldn't as he is relying on SR.

I officially wins the Internet. Feed me tuna.

[Psyren]

I officially wins the Internet. Feed me tuna.

*sighs and opens tin as meows grow in volume*

[Phishfood]

How could anyone not prepare such a spell? I mean honestly.

also my vote goes with the roy method - big pointy stick.

Called it. Ok, they are little pointy sticks and not wielded by a member of the oots technically, but I stand by my prediction.

[torugo]

Nice the way V found to kill Z. Only thing I think he forgot to do (and I wouldnt forget it having so little hit points) is to drink one of those red potions from the stach.

[pendell]

Nice the way V found to kill Z. Only thing I think he forgot to do (and I wouldnt forget it having so little hit points) is to drink one of those red potions from the stach.

Minor point: V hasn't won yet, only secured a temporary tactical advantage, which could be reversed next strip.

If Z is smart he's got a teleport scroll stashed against this eventuality and will teleport out to pester us again in the next arc or so. I hope not though. I would dearly like to see the LG completely eliminated during this arc, so we never have to deal with their shenanigans again.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[faustin]

:vaarsuvius:"Sneak attack, bitch"
So, can we asume Z is a female?:smallbiggrin:

[Cizak]

:vaarsuvius:"Sneak attack, bitch"
So, can we asume Z is a female?:smallbiggrin:

1) V is reffering to Z. I read your post wrong.

2) V is mimicking Haley.

[Demonic1000]

I've got it. Dire charm the kobold, and you get the dog free. Hopefully Z doesn't have too many dispels memorized - he probably wouldn't as he is relying on SR.

Very nice. :vaarsuvius:

[Kaytara]

So it doesn't really bother anyone else that V's plan could be thwarted by a handful of widely available and very useful spells?

I normally don't care much about other things, but OotS is a) really well written, and b) based on clearly defined (if often humorous) rules. That makes it worse when some clearly obvious plot hole sneaks through and sneak attacks me in the back.

It doesn't bother me, because it makes perfect sense given what we know Z knows of V's character.

Overspecialised in direct damage spells. Hubristic and arrogant and proud like hell, and unwilling to admit defeat. Superiority complex.

In short, it's entirely plausible that Z didn't prepare to counter Invisibility because he either didn't know and/or found it inconceivable that the proud Vaarsuvius would be willing or able to stoop to using a tactic that is ultimately for running away.

[Blisstake]

Maybe he did have a see invisibility or Truesight. There were plenty of columns V could have flew behind right after casting invisibility, and it makes sense that Z could have lost V that way.

What really bothers me is Z casting Break Enchantment in one round, and V managing to hold a kobold by the shoulder with one hand. Still, I enjoy how this fight is coming along.

[Blisstake]

I officially wins the Internet. Feed me tuna.

Haha, nice try but plenty of people called it before you :smalltongue:


Hold on, who says V is switching oponents? He has no idea Belkar is coming, and if he fights the kobold, Z will get a few more spells off on him, probably killing V.

Which is why I think V is planning on using a well-placed dominate person here.

I'm sure a few people called it before me, too.

[pendell]

Question.

Z used Phantasmal Killer. As explained in the main discussion thread for #800, Phantasmal Failure almost never works because it allows two saving throws.

Does Z's use of it imply that Z is nearly out of magic, and is forced to resort to less-than-optimal spells out of desperation? Is PK really the best Z can do?

Come to think of it, Z hasn't actually done much offensive magic since the flesh-to-stone spell. Doesn't Z have something more effective that can dispose of a kobold? There must be some Nuke spell that would kill both V and the kobold at once.

Why is Z holding back on the offense? He seems to be spending more time taunting V with apparent invulnerability than actually killing the opponent.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ancalagon]

I think the choice of this spell is not that bad.

The kobold is a rogue, that means he has a bad Fort and Will progression and probably not much wis. So it's a decent choice for a save-or-die spell to quickly get rid of an opponent (and Z really has panic now - and he should have).

The bigger question: Why did he memorise it for a fight vs. Vaarsuvius? As Wizard, Vaarsuvius has a decent Will save (but probably not "good" due to lack of wisdom). Vaarsuvius also does not have much Con.
Zz'dtri can know or at least suspect that when it comes to choices, a long-range no-touch-attack save-or-die-spell that goes on Wis and Fort is not such a bad idea, Zz''dtri basically gets a free "do you simply die this round?" on the distance by having that spell ready.
Using it vs. Vaasuvius as well as vs. the kobold-rogue is a good-enough choice.

Also "never" is a pretty big word. I never saw PK as spell to get rid of an enemy of your level (Boss Fight) but something that seems dangerous but is somewhat lower than you and has to die now (or that you might not be able to/want to hit with a touch or ranged-touch attack).

Why he holds back is totally beyond me. Probably he feels too superiour (he is!) to give up mocking? It's totally in line of what we know about wizards in the OotS-world: arrogant and self-absorbed jerks who marvel at their own supremacy (if they have it).

[Mutant Sheep]

Question.

Z used Phantasmal Killer. As explained in the main discussion thread for #800, Phantasmal Failure almost never works because it allows two saving throws.

Does Z's use of it imply that Z is nearly out of magic, and is forced to resort to less-than-optimal spells out of desperation? Is PK really the best Z can do?

Come to think of it, Z hasn't actually done much offensive magic since the flesh-to-stone spell. Doesn't Z have something more effective that can dispose of a kobold? There must be some Nuke spell that would kill both V and the kobold at once.

Why is Z holding back on the offense? He seems to be spending more time taunting V with apparent invulnerability than actually killing the opponent.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Because Z's entire build is to defeat V, the wizard, and he wanted to gloat about his useless arcane might? And Phantasmal Killer looks scary in a comic, and could work on a Rogue/ranger kobold.

[Jigsaw Forte]

Theory: Z's spell optimization is NOT designed to defeat V, only to slow V down / keep V busy for the longest amount of time possible for some ulterior purpose -- probably the defeat of the rest of the party.

This is probably because V, as a spellcaster, is well-equipped to handle the rest of the Linear Guild (Note how quickly V nailed Yukyuk -- it was done in a PAGE TRANSITION, even!), and as soon as V realized this, V was able to just go and pluck a different party member off to fight for V instead.

[Scrynor]

We also don't know entirely which side Z is playing on at this point. He clearly wants to taunt V and prove he is superior just like he did back in the good old days. Now he also has at very least some level of connection to the IFCC and they don't want V dead.

Whether Z is actually in on it with the IFCC or not is rather irrelevant. Either he is and doesn't intend to kill V or he isn't but still has Qarr as his familiar and Qarr doesn't want V dead so he would certainly encourage Z in his taunt but don't kill ways.

[Metahuman1]

Or as the case turned out to be, make a small lizardman with anger issues shoot him repeatedly with small pointy sticks. Lots and lots of them.

[legomaster00156]

Theory: Z's spell optimization is NOT designed to defeat V, only to slow V down / keep V busy for the longest amount of time possible for some ulterior purpose -- probably the defeat of the rest of the party.

It would be plausible, except that Qarr, his familiar, says that "Z'dditri wants blood."

[Blisstake]

The bigger question: Why did he memorise it for a fight vs. Vaarsuvius? As Wizard, Vaarsuvius has a decent Will save (but probably not "good" due to lack of wisdom). Vaarsuvius also does not have much Con.
Zz'dtri can know or at least suspect that when it comes to choices, a long-range no-touch-attack save-or-die-spell that goes on Wis and Fort is not such a bad idea, Zz''dtri basically gets a free "do you simply die this round?" on the distance by having that spell ready.
Using it vs. Vaasuvius as well as vs. the kobold-rogue is a good-enough choice.

Z had two spells that would be better, but burned through them already. Flesh to Stone was used on Haley, and Baleful Polymorph was burned up with a counterspell. Z probably had the phantasmal killer to take out Haley in case she made a lucky save with Flesh to Stone.


It would be plausible, except that Qarr, his familiar, says that "Z'dditri wants blood."

Of course, Qaar just wants to shut Blackwing up. It seems plausible to me that Qaar would be lying to Blackwing in order to get him to make an agreement with him... especially if it involves Qaar agreeing to do something that would happen anyway.

[gellerche]

V is doing a great job taking down Z with crossbow bolts. But from my AD & D days many (many) years ago, I remember Protection from Normal Missiles as a 1st or 2nd level spell, which should be effective against normal crossbow bolts. Wouldn't this work in saving Z's elven fanny?

[werik]

gellerche
Re: How to defeat Z
V is doing a great job taking down Z with crossbow bolts. But from my AD & D days many (many) years ago, I remember Protection from Normal Missiles as a 1st or 2nd level spell, which should be effective against normal crossbow bolts. Wouldn't this work in saving Z's elven fanny?

In 3.5 Edition there is indeed a similar 2nd level spell called protection from arrows that provides damage reduction against non-magical arrows The arrows wouldn't do any damage to Z unless they exceeded 10 points of damage in which case they would do the balance. So if the kobold managed to deal 11 points normally, 1 point of damage would get through. This would be the case unless Yuk-yuk had magic weapons. However, it is more than reasonable to assume that Haley and Yuk-yuk would both have magical bows at this high of level (level 15 seems like a safe bet for the OOTS and for the Linear Guild). The more effective spell would be Stoneskin which grants the same damage reduction except it can only be overcome by adamantine weapons; a material that Yuk-yuk does not possess on his bolts. Vaarsuvius, in fact, cast this spell in order to avoid Yuk-yuk's bolts. The only problem is that Stoneskin is a 4th level spell, and while Zz'dtri probably has access to it, he chose not to prepare it in lieu of some other spell to nullify Vaarsuvius' magic.

[Kish]

V is doing a great job taking down Z with crossbow bolts. But from my AD & D days many (many) years ago, I remember Protection from Normal Missiles as a 1st or 2nd level spell, which should be effective against normal crossbow bolts. Wouldn't this work in saving Z's elven fanny?
As Vaarsuvius spelled out, Zz'dtri's spells for today were chosen to fight Vaarsuvius, and no one else. "Why isn't he casting X spell?" is a question with an obvious answer unless X spell is a spell likely to be directly useful against Vaarsuvius.

I'm worried about Mr. Scruffy, it looks like Vaarsuvius simply left Sir Scraggly hunting for the wounded Mr. Scruffy while s/he took Yukyuk to fight Zz'dtri. :smallfrown: If Mr. Scruffy dies a completely avoidable death because Vaarsuvius, even after Belkar said "take better care of him," wasn't bothering to pay any attention to him at all, Belkar's wrath will be great and--for once--just.

[Blisstake]

V is doing a great job taking down Z with crossbow bolts. But from my AD & D days many (many) years ago, I remember Protection from Normal Missiles as a 1st or 2nd level spell, which should be effective against normal crossbow bolts. Wouldn't this work in saving Z's elven fanny?

Yeah, the key word here is "normal."

His crossbow is definitely magical since it seems to reload itself.

[Holy_Knight]

I'm worried about Mr. Scruffy, it looks like Vaarsuvius simply left Sir Scraggly hunting for the wounded Mr. Scruffy while s/he took Yukyuk to fight Zz'dtri. :smallfrown: If Mr. Scruffy dies a completely avoidable death because Vaarsuvius, even after Belkar said "take better care of him," wasn't bothering to pay any attention to him at all, Belkar's wrath will be great and--for once--just.
Was Vaarsuvius even aware of Mr. Scruffy's being in danger, though? This seems more like obliviousness than negligence, just like he didn't seem to realize that Blackwing had been threatened.

[Chuck Peirce]

Was Vaarsuvius even aware of Mr. Scruffy's being in danger, though? This seems more like obliviousness than negligence, just like he didn't seem to realize that Blackwing had been threatened.

Being oblivious to something is a typical first step in negligence. That said, I don't know whether I would consider Vaarsuvius blameworthy or not. He/she has some responsibility to keep track of Mister Scruffy. How that responsibility changes in the heat of combat, I'm not sure.

[veti]

Being oblivious to something is a typical first step in negligence. That said, I don't know whether I would consider Vaarsuvius blameworthy or not. He/she has some responsibility to keep track of Mister Scruffy. How that responsibility changes in the heat of combat, I'm not sure.

In a fight between Sir Scraggly and Mr Scruffy - even with a one-crossbow-bolt starting handicap, my 10gp would be on Scruffy.

Anyway, V has her hands full, literally, just fighting off Z. The fact that she's taken Yukyuk out of the fight as well is really just a bonus. It would be unreasonable to expect her to be able to look out for Mr Scruffy as well.

But Belkar isn't exactly a poster boy for reasonable. I'm pretty sure he will hold it against V that Mr S even got wounded, never mind killed.

[Lucas]

Plus if Belkar finds his cat with a crossbow bolt in its side, then happens to find V controlling the owner of said crossbow... Stabbity death first, ask questions later. :smalleek:

[Giggling Ghast]

Even though it looks like V has Z on the ropes, I think V is going to lose this battle.

The IFCC will intervene and "briefly" take control of Vaarsuvius long enough for Z to turn the tables and capture her.

[Chuck Peirce]

In a fight between Sir Scraggly and Mr Scruffy - even with a one-crossbow-bolt starting handicap, my 10gp would be on Scruffy.

By the numbers, an ordinary cat (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Cat) is no match for an ordinary riding dog (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Riding_Dog). Even accounting for animal companion bonuses (see below), Mister Scruffy will have to be clever to survive, let alone defeat, Sir Scraggly.

Animal companions get special bonuses depending on their masters' level:
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Druid#Animal_Companion (Scroll down to the table).
Rangers treat their effective druid level as half their ranger level.

We can guess where Mister Scruffy lies on the table: 12-17 ranger levels correspond to Druid Level 6th-8th, and Belkar probably falls in that range. +4hd, +4AC, and +2 ability scores make Mister Scruffy a bit more survivable, but his damage output is still worthless.

We don't know where Sir Scraggly lies. Yukyuk claimed to have ranger levels, but he also treats Sneak Attack as a noteworthy part of his build. This could mean anything for Sir Scraggly. Maybe Yukyuk is some ranger variant that gets sneak attacks. Maybe he is mostly ranger but with a rogue splash. Maybe he's a half-and-half ranger-and-rogue mix. Maybe he was lying about being a ranger: he's actually a wilderness rogue (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Rogue_Variant:_Wilderness_Rogue) (and Sir Scraggly is an ordinary riding dog).

The 1-3 levels of rogue splash option seems the most likely to me, as that feels the most like a "bizarro world" version of Belkar; it doesn't really matter, though. Even a normal riding dog should be able to beat Mister Scruffy. Bonus hit dice will just help when Mister Scruffy gets clever and knocks some barrels onto Sir Scraggly's head (or whatever clever feat Mister Scruffy pulls, if any).

[EmperorSarda]

Even though it looks like V has Z on the ropes, I think V is going to lose this battle.

The IFCC will intervene and "briefly" take control of Vaarsuvius long enough for Z to turn the tables and capture her.

But nothing says the IFCC cares about the fate of Z. Why use some precious soul control time now and reveal your hand when you can use it later to control the gates?

[Kish]

Indeed, if the IFCC are invested in this fight, they're much less impressive than they initially seemed.

[Chuck Peirce]

But nothing says the IFCC cares about the fate of Z. Why use some precious soul control time now and reveal your hand when you can use it later to control the gates?

Yeah, I agree. And showing their hand is by far the bigger issue; I expect Vaarsuvius envisioned a half-hour of being chained to a rock in some pit of hell after death, not a stint of mind control at a crucial moment in the campaign. Ironically, in the fight against the forces of evil, Vaarsuvius's most effective action at this point might be simply to go home and retire.

[legomaster00156]

Yeah, I agree. And showing their hand is by far the bigger issue; I expect Vaarsuvius envisioned a half-hour of being chained to a rock in some pit of hell after death, not a stint of mind control at a crucial moment in the campaign. Ironically, in the fight against the forces of evil, Vaarsuvius's most effective action at this point might be simply to go home and retire.

If s/he did so, I would not put it past the IFCC to use some of that control to put V back in the fight. I would expect 6 seconds - enough time for a Chain Lightning spell directed towards V's family - would do the trick.

[Silva Stormrage]

Yeah, I agree. And showing their hand is by far the bigger issue; I expect Vaarsuvius envisioned a half-hour of being chained to a rock in some pit of hell after death, not a stint of mind control at a crucial moment in the campaign. Ironically, in the fight against the forces of evil, Vaarsuvius's most effective action at this point might be simply to go home and retire.

I don't think so, he could easily just teleport to the gate and whatever plan they are up to can't take much time. Also V would never do that right now if he realized they could take control of his soul anytime they wanted. He agreed to the divorce to keep them safe. Putting them in harms way of a being of super power that could go berserk whenever some fiends wanted seems counterproductive.

[Lord Torath]

I don't think so, he could easily just teleport to the gate and whatever plan they are up to can't take much time.
Except that V can't Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html). It's now in one of her barred schools. And the fiends can't change that.

[pendell]

I don't think this is necromancy yet, so ...



But nothing says the IFCC cares about the fate of Z. Why use some precious soul control time now and reveal your hand when you can use it later to control the gates?


Wouldn't make sense for the IFC to take control of V to save Z's life. If V became at all aware of what had happened, V would immediately take precautionary steps to protect against being used by the IFCC to sabotage the mission.

No, the IFCC can't tip it's hand prematurely. It will have control of V for about 43 minutes -- four and a half turns, or four hundred fifty combat rounds. It needs to save that time until it can be used to best effect to capture a gate. They can't allow V even a second of suspicion that this will happen until the time comes to strike. And when they do strike, it must be for all the chips.

Oh, and of those combat rounds, the IFCC must reserve at least one to force V to commit suicide after eliminating the rest of the OOTS. Possibly two, if they need V to perform some action to get their own operatives in position to secure the gate.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gandariel]

THAT'S IT!!!!!

VERY SPOILERISH
Everybody wonders how will the Order kill Xykon, considering he's 10-15 levels above them (and is a sorceror)...

Order and Xykon team will fight, with various thing possibly happening (notably about Redcloak and the Mitd)

Then, Xykon will win. V will then be possessed, kill xykon (the IFCC can, they're better at being a wizard than V) and enact their plan!

[pendell]

Okay, new questions .

-- It is possible to contend that Zz'dtri is in even more trouble then V is. Z appears to be at 0 HP, out of spells, and captured by Tarquin's troops. Here's hoping they slit his throat quickly and efficiently. But of course they won't. Tarquin will want him alive for "questioning". Bah, why can't the villains just kill their enemies?

-- How does V get out of the demiplane of ranch dressing? Or does V have to be rescued via a multi-hundred-strip arc side quest?

-- Should V leave the kobold there, neutralizing a threat? Or should V keep him dominated in order to make use of him? Or would the kobold willingly cooperate, since they have a common interest in getting back to Stick-prime?

One thing: At least V won't starve.

ETA: Reading the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm), there appears to be a lesson here. Planeshift is a touch range spell. V and the kobold should have stayed away from Z and simply shot him.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[legomaster00156]

-- It is possible to contend that Zz'dtri is in even more trouble then V is. Z appears to be at 0 HP, out of spells, and captured by Tarquin's troops. Here's hoping they slit his throat quickly and efficiently. But of course they won't. Tarquin will want him alive for "questioning". Bah, why can't the villains just kill their enemies?

-- How does V get out of the demiplane of ranch dressing? Or does V have to be rescued via a multi-hundred-strip arc side quest?

-- Should V leave the kobold there, neutralizing a threat? Or should V keep him dominated in order to make use of him? Or would the kobold willingly cooperate, since they have a common interest in getting back to Stick-prime?

1. Why doesn't he just kill him? For one, a wizard without spells can't do anything useful, even moreso if he doesn't have his scimitars, or they confiscated them. In addition, it simply would not be dramatic.
2. Rescued? Yes. Multi-hundred-strip arc? No.
3. No idea.

[LadyShadowflame]

The thing that puzzles me, is why didn't Z counter that invisibility? He could've done it easily, without even having to waste a spell slot.
Drow spell-like abilities.
Faerie Fire. It's what it's for.

[Steward]

"Bah, why can't the villains just kill their enemies? " Enemy? When did Z become Tarquin's enemy?

[whitelaughter]

-- It is possible to contend that Zz'dtri is in even more trouble then V is. Z appears to be at 0 HP, out of spells, and captured by Tarquin's troops. Here's hoping they slit his throat quickly and efficiently. But of course they won't. Tarquin will want him alive for "questioning". Bah, why can't the villains just kill their enemies?

The value of a high level wizard far exceeds the value of a corpse. IIRC buying spells cost 5*spell level*caster level gp = Z's worth several thouand gp per day to Tarquin. And as noted earlier, Tarquin has no problem with his prisoners escaping so long as he makes a profit out of it.



-- How does V get out of the demiplane of ranch dressing? Or does V have to be rescued via a multi-hundred-strip arc side quest?
- Well, he has Abjuration magic, so he can banish himself: and we know he has the spell as he had planned to use it on the fiend that Quarr summoned on that island.
- Divination would let him find an exit/monster with the appropriate abilities to leave.
- with Transmutation, he could become a monster that can leave.
- Enchantment to make someone else send him home
-



-- Should V leave the kobold there, neutralizing a threat? Or should V keep him dominated in order to make use of him? Or would the kobold willingly cooperate, since they have a common interest in getting back to Stick-prime?
Yuk-yuk's primary goal is killing Belkar, yes? The two have obvious common ground; I can see him being permanently recruited.




ETA: Reading the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm), there appears to be a lesson here. Planeshift is a touch range spell. V and the kobold should have stayed away from Z and simply shot him.

Sneak Attack has a maximum range of 30', and Yuk-Yuk almost certainly has Point Blank Shot. V had to stay close to take Z down.