Thog: The Sadistic Jester

[BloodyGingers]

Well, first things first. It's my first post and thread all in one, so hello there everybody! I love you all, and I hope you love soulless gingers as much as I do, as I am one. If not then you can sod off for being racist. Only not. Right, first post and I'm already awkward. Tell you what, why don't we just pretend that nobody said anything at all. Yeah...

Anyways, onto more important things. I know that Thog is almost universally loved by the fandom due to his largely goofy nature, his status as a comedic foil in almost any situation for whatever character his has been partnered with, and the fact that his more murderous nature has been to a degree minimalized. I know that we have seen him responsible for the murder of dozens in Cliffport, and likely hundreds of innocents beyond this. Yet this is kept underneath a veneer of childish innocence, and I'll wager that there are people willing to defend or at least excuse Thog's actions due to this adorable simplicity of his character. Yet, I think that The Giant (May his name remain holy) has realized that Thog really needs to be unveiled as a monster.

Now, nowhere is this more apparent than some of the latest strips. We see an easily noticeable change in the rage to end all rages that Thog finally reveals, yet a statement on Roy's part during the setup to this destructive rampage really stood out to me.

"You're nothing special Thog! You're not my equal and opposite. I've beaten plenty of cruel and stupid thugs in my time"

That line, "Cruel and stupid thug" piqued my interest. The usage of cruel was what I found especially interesting. Describing Thog as a thug, stupid, or those two combined would hardly be significant, but by acknowledging his cruelty as well, Roy, and thus The Giant, wants to bring to our attention that Thog is Evil. I use "Evil", instead of "evil", because Thog is Chaotic Evil in its both stupidest and laziest form. Were it not for this laziness, then Thog would actively pursue random destructive rampages for fun, yet as his perchant for ice cream shows, Thog would rather do other things that destract his infantile mind before making the effort to really do some damage to people. Yet these killing sprees are also a way that Thog entertains himself.

:thog: "Oh, little ice-cream friends! Thog delays boredom-driven rampage only for you!"

As we see, while Thog is goofy, Thog is not nice. Thog is mean. Thog is a child that never grew up and decided that pushing others around is a good way to get what he wants or to punish those who don't do what he likes. And Thog's muderous rage at Roy for the crime of merely breaking one of his tusks, when Roy could have seriously attempted to kill Thog, culminates in a moment of pure brutality. Thog takes a giant boulder and uses it to smash Roy down for speaking just enough to surrender.

This unwarranted, mean, and unnecessary attack on Thog's part is just the icing on the cake of this totally legit ass-kicking, yet also cements the fact that Thog is Evil. In the the same way that a 16 year old spoiled brat is on her birthday, but still, it's Evil. And that is what I think The Giant is trying to tell us. That Thog is Evil. Not that he is powerful.

I think that the Giant knows that we have viewed Thog as a dangerous gimmick on evil's part until now, and he needs to show us that Thog is still a villain. Thog is an entertaining villain, yet he is still on the bad side for a good reason, no pun intended. This brings us to an interesting parallel between Xykon and Thog, as both were generally goofy and never did much except joke around and provide some support in combat, until their rage moment. This is Xykon losing his Phylactery, and Thog getting his tusk cut off. After this, they went bat-feces-crazy with anger, and were cemented as villains. Thog is a villain, and no amount stupidity can hide this.

I don't dislike Thog, yet I think that his "fan following" is too great, and this is part of the reason that The Giant had Thog be so brutal as of late. He needs to be understood as an evil character, and to be a proper evil villain character, you have to possess a trait that the reader really finds objectionable, namely, this mindless temper tantrum of pure hate. Not that it's not a crowning moment of awesome, but it is also the moment that we needed to shock us into realizing that this is infact a bad person we are dealing with, and one that won't hesitate to kill or maim those who try to spare them or surrender to them.

Well, I'd say that that'd sum it up for me, though if I find any more than I will add it later. I'd write more, but I'm tired. Even a soulless ginger needs his sleep.

Links for consumption.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0796.html

Oh, as far as first posts go, how did I do? And yes, I know that it's less of a post, more of an essay, but still.

[Burner28]

I never could have thought that Thog was anything but Evil since he killed that sylph.

[curtis]

I think you're definitely right here. Also of note is Tarquin's line in comic 788: "It's weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still thinks he's lovable," which is definitely directed at all the Thog fans.

I've also seen it suggested that this is Thog's last hurrah, and that before the Giant (may his beard be soaked in ale and not in vomit) kills him off he had to show that he is in fact Evil, which is certainly very possible.

[Burner28]

But there is no need to show us Thog is Evil, we aslready know that he is Evil.

[Zerg Cookie]

We know his alignment is chaotic evil, yet some fans need to be shown that Thog is not only evil with a whiny lowercase, but Evil with a shiny capital.
He's exactly like Xykon minus 2 tiers and about 10 levels.

[Cizak]

Indeed. I love Thog, and I too think he's often very loveable, but there is no use denying that he is anything but Evil.

[Knaight]

We know his alignment is chaotic evil, yet some fans need to be shown that Thog is not only evil with a whiny lowercase, but Evil with a shiny capital.
He's exactly like Xykon minus 2 tiers and about 10 levels.

Xykon is far smarter, far more ambitious, better at wanton cruelty and destruction, is capable of drawing other powerful people to him, and can get stuff done on his own. Thog is a mad dog at best, Xykon actually a threat, and tiers and levels wouldn't change that.

[Cizak]

Xykon is far smarter, far more ambitious, better at wanton cruelty and destruction, is capable of drawing other powerful people to him, and can get stuff done on his own. Thog is a mad dog at best, Xykon actually a threat, and tiers and levels wouldn't change that.

I'd say Thog is more like Xykon when Xykon was human. When not distracted with icecream/coffe, they go berserk. But Xykon is of course smarter.

[Alagaesian]

We know his alignment is chaotic evil, yet some fans need to be shown that Thog is not only evil with a whiny lowercase, but Evil with a shiny capital.
He's exactly like Xykon minus 2 tiers, about 10 levels, and roughly 7 INT points.
Fixed that for you.

EDIT: Dang ninjas...someone even got off a reply to the ninja too.

[FujinAkari]

Oh, as far as first posts go, how did I do? And yes, I know that it's less of a post, more of an essay, but still.

Your post is very well put together, formatted, and logical but, unfortunately, could have just as easily been about the fact that Belkar is a halfling or that V's alignment isn't generally agreed upon... you spent an awful lot of time arguing a point that is pretty universally agreed upon :P

[Kibble Sage]

I think you're definitely right here. Also of note is Tarquin's line in comic 788: "It's weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still thinks he's lovable," which is definitely directed at all the Thog fans.

I've also seen it suggested that this is Thog's last hurrah, and that before the Giant (may his beard be soaked in ale and not in vomit) kills him off he had to show that he is in fact Evil, which is certainly very possible.

I'd just like to salute you for using the dwarven blessing of "may his beard be soaked in ale and not in vomit". :smallwink: It speaks volumes about your sense of style and panache, good sir.

[hamishspence]

you spent an awful lot of time arguing a point that is pretty universally agreed upon :P

The view that Thog is not entirely responsible for his actions due to his stupidity may be a minority view, but it does crop up.

And this thread counter-argues against it pretty well. I approve.

[luc258]

It should be clear to anyone that Thog, Tarquin, Xykon and Belkar are as evil as it can get.
Nevertheless they are fascinating characters in a story and i think (hope) that is why they actually do have fans.

The usual chaotic evil thug is somebody who bullies and beats up people for almost no reason at all. Thog is somebody who likes ice cream and puppies and goes on boredom driven rampages. He is so very different from the evil cliche bully and that is why people like him in the story, despite being a cold blooded murderer.

Similar arguments can be made for Tarquin (just so charismatic), Xykon (so funny in a cruel and evil way) and Belkar (for ending the gnome menace once and for all).

They are anything but the usual cliche evil doers and that's why people like them and that's a good portion of why OOTS is such a great comic, too.

[King of Nowhere]

I always supported the idea that thog is less responsible for his actions because of his scarce capability to understand moral principles. I used to think he could be considered more an animal companion with barbarian levels than a person with free will.
I changed my mind after his banter with roy in the arena, showing that thog has some emasure of smartness.
I stil think that he's less responsible than a regularly brained person doing the same thing (say, mental retard as extenuating circumstance), but there's still more than enough to kick him into the deeply evil side

[Prowl]

Thog likes puppies.

[Zerg Cookie]

Thog likes puppies.

Your point is?

[theinsulabot]

people love to try and explain the dark side of their favorite characters.


see also; belkar

[Ursus the Grim]

people love to try and explain the dark side of their favorite characters.


see also; belkar

And pretty much any attractive or half-way developed villain ever.

See also; http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants

Yep, TV Tropes invoked. Sorry all.

[Cloaked Bloke]

Okay, I agree. I'm rather interested that so many people think that Thog can't be held entirely accountable for his actions. When... Yes, he can. He knows full well what he is doing is wrong, is considered wrong by everyone else, and that he enjoys it (at least to some degree).

"Boredom-driven rampage" was quoted earlier. When people are bored, they generally seek out an activity that they enjoy in order to alleviate this boredom. Thus, Thog enjoys rampaging. Second, the fact that he actually used the word "rampage" in this context shows that he also knows that just going around and killing innocent people and destroying everything in sight is actually a bad thing.

So, no. Thog cannot be excused for his actions because he doesn't understand the implications of what he is doing. He knows, it's just that he likes being Evil.

I hope that, in future, the Giant (may his flagon always be full) subverts the fan-base of such characters again.

[theinsulabot]

heh, I got a real laugh out of the little "take that" the giant through out a few strips back at the "still think he is loveable" thing, then there was the thog fan being killed and I wondered if it would get a reaction, and low and behold someone hopped up on the soap box and ranted about the giant was a jerk for mocking people who dared to like a likable character, or something like that.


It was pretty funny, I could practically hear the "likable or not...he still is kind of a mass murdering psychopath...." ringing in the back of my head.

[Gift Jeraff]

I've known Thog was really evil and loved him ever since his adventure with Talky-Man. And ever since he gloated about helping with the "sacrifice," (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html) there's been no doubt in my mind that he's reeeallyyy Evil. Just not as Evil as Xykon, Nale, or Tarquin. But that doesn't say much.

[Cracklord]

Thog... To me at least, is an interesting case.
He's evil, and shows no real shame about it, and even though Elan shows he can be kept under control with the right (somewhat hapless) treatment, he shows no real inclination of wanting to change. I find Thog funny, but I can see the strip without him.

But if I might bring up the old adage, Judge Not, Lest Ye Not Be Judged. In this instance at least, The Order are hardly the people to be throwing stones.

Why do they adventure with Belkar (whom I loathe)? Exactly the same reasons Nale keeps around Thog. It's been clear that since the earliest strips they've been well aware of his penchant for rampant sadism, and have done practically nothing to reign him in, because he's useful. A fairly pragmatic and utilitarian decision, that has it's justifications, but put you on delicate moral ground indeed when it comes to holding someone accountable for the exact same actions. 'That behavior is only okay when I allow it' is pretty flimsy.

So who are they to criticize Thog for doing the exact same thing they have their own token bastard to take care of? Now, most of the characters are more or less hero material. They have their flaws, Harley has greed, Roy has pride, Durkon has repressed his feelings for the sake of his beliefs and so on, but they are overcoming them. But they keep around Belkar, which really puts them a step back. And, like Thog, many people on the forums are always willing to defend Belkar.

My point is, Roy is absolutely right, but a total hypocrite.

[curtis]

I really don't see your point. Roy has always attempted to prevent Belkar from doing too much damage. They have "reigned him in" on many occasions, and it's been proved that this was actually effective (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html)). Meanwhile, Thog kills innocents and goes on violent rampages.

I don't see why you think Roy is being hypocritical here. Which point in particular do you think is hypocritical?

[Tanngrisnir]

. . . But if I might bring up the old adage, Judge Not, Lest Ye Not Be Judged . . .

Saw this and couldn't resist correcting it. The correct saying is either 'judge not, lest ye be judged' or 'judge not, that ye be not judged.'

The way you have put it means, basically, 'Don't judge people in case you are not judged in return,' which makes no sense.

As for my feelings about Thog, he has always been clearly evil, and is obviously aware of what he is doing and that what he is doing is wrong. He enjoys hurting people just for the hell of it.

Evil, and aware.

[Klear]

Roy keeps Belkar to minimize the damage he'd do to innocent people. Nale keeps Thog to maximize the damage to innocent people when he needs it =)

[Cracklord]

Roy keeps Belkar to minimize the damage he'd do to innocent people. Nale keeps Thog to maximize the damage to innocent people when he needs it =)

Right. I call bull****. How much damage would Belkar do from a prison cell? A prison cell capable of holding Thog? Remember, Azure City wanted to throw him in one, and instead they enacted a complex plan involving illusions to keep this from being realized. Yes, he would have escaped come goblins (maybe eventually killed, maybe recruited, who knows?) but the point is, that's a justification that does not hold up.
Better say that Roy keeps him around because, for all his faults, and his inability to be dependable, he's still effective at killing things, which is essentially the function of an adventurer. As long as Roy can keep him pointed in the right direction, he's of use.


Saw this and couldn't resist correcting it. The correct saying is either 'judge not, lest ye be judged' or 'judge not, that ye be not judged.'

You're completely right. Sorry, typo.


I really don't see your point. Roy has always attempted to prevent Belkar from doing too much damage. They have "reigned him in" on many occasions, and it's been proved that this was actually effective (here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html)). Meanwhile, Thog kills innocents and goes on violent rampages.

I don't see why you think Roy is being hypocritical here. Which point in particular do you think is hypocritical?

How about deciding, completely arbitrarily, that one mass murdering psychopath is worth keeping around, and another needs to die? He's willing to make use of Belkar, despite plenty of reasons why he really shouldn't, so who is he to hold what is essentially the exact same character accountable?
Sure, fate's going to take care of Belkar for him eventually, but he only learned that recently. Hell, he even tried to keep Belkar out of prison in Azure City. Thog, however, apparently is irredeemable. I'll give Roy his props that he did give Thog a chance to surrender and stopped when he was down, but he's not in a position to throw stones at the way Thog acts when he himself keeps around Belkar.

[Querzis]

How about deciding, completely arbitrarily, that one mass murdering psychopath is worth keeping around, and another needs to die? He's willing to make use of Belkar, despite plenty of reasons why he really shouldn't, so who is he to hold what is essentially the exact same character accountable?
Sure, fate's going to take care of Belkar for him eventually, but he only learned that recently. Hell, he even tried to keep Belkar out of prison in Azure City. Thog, however, apparently is irredeemable. I'll give Roy his props that he did give Thog a chance to surrender and stopped when he was down, but he's not in a position to throw stones at the way Thog acts when he himself keeps around Belkar.

Indeed, Thog would actually even probably be easier for Roy to control then Belkar. People seems to forget that Belkar has actually murdered quite a few innocent people while he was supposed to be on Roy 'leash'. But that doesnt just apply to this particular instance or just to Roy, it apply to the entire Order in every situation. Thats why I'm so looking forward to Belkar dying, I think hes badass and I do find him funny sometimes but I mostly think he could be fun as a villain. As a 'hero' he just make the entire Order seems like moral lightweight and hypocrites for putting up with him. Dont try to tell us crap about no prison being able to hold him Roy, an anti-magic cell would most definitly have been more then enough to take care of him. Hell, put him in a mithril prison if you really wanna be on the safe side.

I know thats its one of the oldest cliche of D&D how PC can escape from jail pretty much instantly but thats really just because the DM doesnt want the campaign to end that way. Its really not that hard to emprison someone for his whole life in D&D regardless of their level of power, there are plenty of ways to make it happen.

[Cracklord]

Indeed, Thog would actually even probably be easier for Roy to control then Belkar.

Sure. Elan can keep Thog under control, let alone Roy.

[MickJay]

Roy's approach to Belkar has already been found acceptable in Celestia after his death - even if a reader considers Roy to be a hypocrite, the in-universe forces of Good decided that Roy's actions are justified.

[BloodyGingers]

Right, looking back, writing a train of thought down around midnight and posting it without proofreading, that was a bad idea.

I apologize for not thinking about what I was doing. I forgot to add that this was a theory of mine that I was presenting to the forum for approval. So . . . sorry about that guys. My bad.

[Zerg Cookie]

This isn't as much a theory as it is analysis.
And not a bad one at that, to be honest.

[Demonic1000]

Thog's time is ending. I believe he'll be killed with the barbarian's curse (losing HP granted by the benefit of Con). These aren't temporary hit points, so if Thog is at 8HP or less and gets out of rage, he dies.

Good riddance. :roy:

[Klear]

As much as I like Roy, now that the situation seemingly turned I feel bad for Thog. I mean, the frame where he's got all the glass in his face is the saddest thing that happened in... well, the last 6 strips actually. But I still feel sorry for him.

[Ekul]

Would Roy spare Thog if he tried to surrender?
He already has. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html)

[Cracklord]

Roy's approach to Belkar has already been found acceptable in Celestia after his death - even if a reader considers Roy to be a hypocrite, the in-universe forces of Good decided that Roy's actions are justified.

Sure. Under 'attempting to redeem an evildoer'. Like Thog.
Point is, what suggests Belkar deserves a second chance (or chance #798) but Thog doesn't?

[Klear]

Sure. Under 'attempting to redeem an evildoer'. Like Thog.
Point is, what suggests Belkar deserves a second chance (or chance #798) but Thog doesn't?

Roy isn't giving Belkar a second chance, he's trying to minimize the damage he does. And he can do that since Belkar is in his party. Getting Thog to betray Nale, if possible, would be very hard and time-consuming.

[The Anarresti]

I stil think that he's less responsible than a regularly brained person doing the same thing (say, mental retard as extenuating circumstance), but there's still more than enough to kick him into the deeply evil side

I would not call most mental retardation extenuating circumstances. As an example, look at people with Down syndrome (which, in D&D terms, probably means INT and WIS <5, but normal CHA. I'd call Autism WIS and CHA <5, normal INT).
Anyway, I know several people with Down syndrome. These people are certainly not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but they definitely know right from wrong, in the same way that a normal human, or a genius, does. Retarded people are emotionally as human as the rest of us, they simply lack the cognitive skills that most neurotypical humans enjoy.
Two year olds and special people understand the difference between right and wrong. If a Down syndrome man killed a human by accident, he would be just as horrified and distraught as a neurotypical man.
Hell, even dogs understand the difference between right and wrong. Dogs know when they have done bad things, and they express confusion when they are scolded for something they don't understand, and well-adjusted dogs treat small children much more gently than they do older humans.

All in all, mentally retarded people (defining it in the typical way, leaving out Autistic people) have as much of an ethical sense of right and wrong as anyone else. They should be held to the same standard of morality for deliberate actions as most people are. Thog may be an idiot, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be expected to have a conscience.

[Holy_Knight]

Right, looking back, writing a train of thought down around midnight and posting it without proofreading, that was a bad idea.

I apologize for not thinking about what I was doing. I forgot to add that this was a theory of mine that I was presenting to the forum for approval. So . . . sorry about that guys. My bad.

As far as I can tell people have been pretty positive about your post, so I'm not sure why you're apologizing here. For my part, I thought it was pretty well-considered. If anything, there's probably more examples to support your point than you allude to--for instance, invading a person's home and forcing them to act like a dog for your own amusement is pretty cruel and horrific.


As for the Roy being hypocritical in regards to Thog and Belkar thing, I don't really see it. He got him released from Azure City specifically in order to help defeat Xykon, with the Mark of Justice on him, and with the expectation that he would later stand trial for killng the guard and have to devote his share of the treasure to paying for the guard's ressurrection. In a more overall sense, there's quite a bit of difference between his saying: "I'm going to do what I can to prevent Belkar from attacking the innocent and instead channel his violence toward evil, world-threatening targets" and Nale's saying "Hey Thog, come help me kill a whole bunch of innocent people as part of my evil plan to kill even more innocent people".

[TheMac04]

I would not call most mental retardation extenuating circumstances. As an example, look at people with Down syndrome (which, in D&D terms, probably means INT and WIS <5, but normal CHA. I'd call Autism WIS and CHA <5, normal INT).
Anyway, I know several people with Down syndrome. These people are certainly not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but they definitely know right from wrong, in the same way that a normal human, or a genius, does. Retarded people are emotionally as human as the rest of us, they simply lack the cognitive skills that most neurotypical humans enjoy.
Two year olds and special people understand the difference between right and wrong. If a Down syndrome man killed a human by accident, he would be just as horrified and distraught as a neurotypical man.
Hell, even dogs understand the difference between right and wrong. Dogs know when they have done bad things, and they express confusion when they are scolded for something they don't understand, and well-adjusted dogs treat small children much more gently than they do older humans.

All in all, mentally retarded people (defining it in the typical way, leaving out Autistic people) have as much of an ethical sense of right and wrong as anyone else. They should be held to the same standard of morality for deliberate actions as most people are. Thog may be an idiot, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be expected to have a conscience.

I don't have much to contribute besides saying that this is beautiful right here. It's rare that you see a little bit of writing where everyone sentence just makes you nod your head in agreement and resonates with you so thoroughly.