Called shot/Locational damage that works?

[Cipher Stars]

I love d&d. especially 3.5.
What I don't love is the generic damage.

I want to see nutshots, decapitations and dismemberments, broken arms and cracked skulls.

Anyone have anything/know of anything to satisfy this girl's desire for realism in-game? And plenty of nutcrackers >;-)

[Big Fau]

DnD isn't built for things like this. HP doesn't actually represent how many injuries your character can take (Con does that), but a multitude of things.



If you want an injury system like what you are describing, play WFRP. It has one built in.

[WinWin]

Maybe you should try a system with condition tracks such as WoD or SR.

D&D 2e did have called shots and critical hits/failed saves in their Players Option series. Effects ranged from crippling injuries to loss of faculties to dismemberment or destruction of vital body parts. Blood loss was the main killer.

Random critical hit systems are not player friendly. A player in an old campaign of mine had his 12th level fighter killed by a club wielding goblin in a random encounter. 2 rolls and the customised two-handed sword grandmaster was down with a broken hip...at the mercy of a THAC0 20 goblin.

Probability dictates that this kind of event will happen to PC's far more often than any given NPC. The only subversion this rule in 2e was the blaster spellcaster, who could force a staggering number of creatures to roll saving throws (and therefore risk a critical failure) with little risk of reprisal.

Even in 3.5, encounters with monsters like Orcs are swingy enough. One crit with a falchion will ruin a low level characters day. Give that Orc a greataxe and a lucky shot will take out an optimized character. Adding effects on top of raw damage is adding little to the experience of getting your character hacked to death.

Don't get me wrong, it adds an interesting dimension to gameplay. Dare I say it, vermisillitude. However, for most campaigns the characters most likely to take the brunt of critical hits are the front line fighters. These also happen to be the character types that do not respond well to physical disadvantage. I mean, a crippled wizard can still fly, but a crippled barbarian....

[Psyren]

DnD isn't built for things like this. HP doesn't actually represent how many injuries your character can take (Con does that), but a multitude of things.

Even Con doesn't really do that, because there's a lot of other baggage bundled in with Con, like "life force." And you can be a construct/undead too (no con score) and still have limbs that can be removed, tendons/sinew to disrupt etc.

Your underlying point of course remains quite valid.

[Kaeso]

Torn asunder is a book that more or less does this for 3.5e

[noparlpf]

3.5 doesn't have this. Homebrew something if you really want it in 3.5. HP is the most abstract function of health that I have ever seen...a few caltrops can kill a commoner.

[Xtomjames]

What they've said isn't completely true.

D&D 3.5 has called shots just as the other versions of D&D do, there are variant rules on HP location subdual damage versus actual HP damage and Area AC.

Here is a basic run down of it. Each Limb, each hand and foot, your core and your head are AC slots. Each item protects specific parts of the body. Thus you can have a total AC, but each individual part has its own AC count based on the item that is there. E.G.: Say you had a Fighter who had a helmet, full plate, bracers, leather knee boots and gloves. The full plate would provide a +8 to +10 (depending on type) to the core ac and upper arms and legs. The Helmet would provide AC of +0 to +4 depending on type and magic, the bracers again would have a range based on type and the boots would have AC as well based on type. (Note: if you can't find boot AC as many don't have AC, the Armor Class is based on the Material's armor class. Leather is +1 Steel +2 Mithral +5 and Adamantine +10 for reference.)

A normal attack would apply to the total AC, unless the bracers and extraneous armor specifies a miscellaneous modifier or deflection bonus or a bonus to total AC, they aren't counted and you go off purely the core. Thus a normal attack and called shot to the core would be the same (no penalty). A called shot to the upper arm would have the full plate AC count while the forearm would have the bracer count and so on.

In the way of say a nut shot or groin shot there is such a thing as an armored cod piece which gives a +2 bonus to AC for the called shot area.

Mage armor protects the same all over the body in all cases.

Each region then can take subdual damage except for the head and core in called shots unless the attacker has the ability to choose between the two.

One can choose to sunder a limb as well. A limb's AC is 5+the AC component+Dex modifier. A limb that is sundered follows bleed rules as it is usually chopped off if successful. (Example: A rogue has bracer's of armor +4 to sunder his arm you'd have to be 5+4+ the rogue's dex mod, averaged it'd be a 13.) You should take into account the negatives for a called shot while making the sunder attempt. Misc armor bonuses also apply to limbs as do natural armor.

Thus a Halfling Half-Dragon Rogue would gain its size modifier, natural armor, and dex applied against the sunder attempt.

A monk would apply his AC bonus and Wisdom modifier along with his Dex.

In the Unapproachable East there are also rules for specific Ki Strikes that are for specific areas, as well as advanced martial arts that grant kicks on top of punches.

Deft Strike is also about finding weak points as are most assassin abilities, thus you can take them to a literal level if you want.

[Marnath]

Well, there is this (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/damage.htm), but I don't know how good it is in actual play.

[Eldariel]

What they've said isn't completely true.

D&D 3.5 has called shots just as the other versions of D&D do, there are variant rules on HP location subdual damage versus actual HP damage and Area AC.

Where exactly do you find said variants? I don't recall them in the DMG; perhaps non-SRD UA?

[Drelua]

I've heard that Ultimate Combat, coming out next month, will have rules for called shots, but of course I cannot vouch for their quality. They may also be incompatible with 3.5 due to CMB/CMD.

[Xtomjames]

Where exactly do you find said variants? I don't recall them in the DMG; perhaps non-SRD UA?

Well see that's the problem actually these variants appear in several books, parts are in the DMG II, parts in Unearthed Arcana, some appear in the Arms and Armaments books and so on. They were never conjoined into one place. Some of the rules I've given (such as the AC for sundering a limb) exists in the Sword and Sorcery books as 3rd party rules.

Edit: I do believe there are also dismemberment rules spread out through various books as well, including the Ravenloft books and the Dragon Lance books.

Some of the rules come from Eberron looking at constructs and vehicles. D20 Modern also has limb specific rules which are easily ported to D&D 3.5

[LansXero]

I've heard that Ultimate Combat, coming out next month, will have rules for called shots, but of course I cannot vouch for their quality. They may also be incompatible with 3.5 due to CMB/CMD.

The only thing Ive seen about that in there is a Gunslinger class feature, and its more like a debuff spell of which you can choose the effects than an actual system to replace HP. But I only saw the playtest, so it may still be in there.

[Xtomjames]

Also the Quintessential Fighter has some stuff on it, and fighting giant-colossal creatures has rules for hitting limbs versus core AC and HP which can be used for smaller creatures.

[ericgrau]

Called shot systems generally fall under 3 categories:
1. overpowered
2. underpowered
3. No better or worse than regular damage for dropping a foe. This requires tremendous work towards fine tuning the balance, and then it's pointless b/c all your options have the same effect.

I prefer option #2, but situationally useful. Sometimes you need to cut off someone's hand b/c it's holding the plot macguffin, and/or you don't want to kill him only remove something. This also requires less balancing work, b/c you only need to make it weaker than normal damage, yet stronger in specific situations. That gives you a nice range to work with and all you have to do is land somewhere in the middle. This also means that 90% of the time players don't use called shots, they use regular attacks. B/c if it was generally useful, one of the above 3 happens.

EDIT: Gunslinger called shots or other special attacks that are situationally useful could likewise work. I like how the gunslinger options aren't particularly strong, so a gunslinger won't "called shot to the head" every round, only when it makes sense. You could even make them available to everyone without a class feature and I don't think it would break anything.

[Xtomjames]

Called shot systems generally fall under 3 categories:
1. overpowered
2. underpowered
3. No better or worse than regular damage for dropping a foe. This requires tremendous work towards fine tuning the balance, and then it's pointless b/c all your options have the same effect.

I prefer option #2, but situationally useful. Sometimes you need to cut off someone's hand b/c it's holding the plot macguffin, and/or you don't want to kill him only remove something. This also requires less balancing work, b/c you only need to make it weaker than normal damage, yet stronger in specific situations. That gives you a nice range to work with and all you have to do is land somewhere in the middle. This also means that 90% of the time players don't use called shots, they use regular attacks. B/c if it was generally useful, one of the above 3 happens.

EDIT: Gunslinger called shots or other special attacks that are situationally useful could likewise work. I like how the gunslinger options aren't particularly strong, so a gunslinger won't "called shot to the head" every round, only when it makes sense. You could even make them available to everyone without a class feature and I don't think it would break anything.

Why do you think I explained what I did. Personally I think what I've given up above is fairly balanced. Called shots take negatives that are atrocious. Anywhere between -2 to -6 on an attack (Ranged and light weapons are -2, one handed -4 two handed -6). so the over all Localized AC is balanced against the actual called shot attack.

Though I'll agree it's not much better than normal attacks, but it adds flavor and description.

[Gametime]

Well see that's the problem actually these variants appear in several books, parts are in the DMG II, parts in Unearthed Arcana, some appear in the Arms and Armaments books and so on. They were never conjoined into one place. Some of the rules I've given (such as the AC for sundering a limb) exists in the Sword and Sorcery books as 3rd party rules.

Edit: I do believe there are also dismemberment rules spread out through various books as well, including the Ravenloft books and the Dragon Lance books.

Some of the rules come from Eberron looking at constructs and vehicles. D20 Modern also has limb specific rules which are easily ported to D&D 3.5

I can't find anything resembling called shot rules in either the DMG II or Unearthed Arcana. Are you sure the rules you listed aren't purely 3rd party inventions?

[Cipher Stars]

I can't find anything resembling called shot rules in either the DMG II or Unearthed Arcana. Are you sure the rules you listed aren't purely 3rd party inventions?

I'd think called shots would just impose a Size penalty, your trying to hit a smaller target then a generic humanoid.
Otherwise attack as normal and roll randomly for location.


The Candlekeep link was helpful, and I liked it. Seemed to leave a few things out though.
It could have detailed calling shots for one.

I'm reading that "Torn Asunder" pdf now. so I'll see if anything goods in there.

[TheCountAlucard]

Like a previous poster said, you might want to be careful about implementing such a system. For one, it doesn't necessarily add to the "realism" of the game. Two, if you're doing this as DM, you should really warn your players about what kind of game this is going to be, and not be surprised if some of 'em drop.

[Eldan]

Reflavour Power Attack: it's harder to hit and deals more damage. Then describe graphically.

[Calimehter]

What Eldan said.

Also, doesn't precision damage from sneak attack and the like largely mimic a called shot mechanic? The extra damage comes from hitting them where it hurts, after all. When you toss in some of the SA related feats like Throat Punch, Staggering Strike and the like, it especially seems like SA *is* the 3.5 called shot mechanic.

[Domriso]

I just want to throw it out there that, while I enjoyed the system of Torn Asunder (I used it for a year-long campaign to great amusement), the called shot variant presented in the Pathfinder Ultimate Combat book looks even better. In fact, the only thing I really dislike about it is that it doesn't include monstrous body parts, but I feel like that could easily be introduced.