First time 4e DMing advice

[Merk]

Hi all. I'm going to be running a 4e game this friday for a large-ish group of 11th level characters. I'm very familiar with DMing in 3.X, but I have a couple of questions:


Are there any significant differences in how combat runs? (initiative, etc.)
Are there WBL expectations / should I be providing treasure?
In general, what constitutes "Easy", "Moderate", and "Difficult" encounters for an 11th level party of maybe 6-8 people?
Any other advice for a DM coming from 3.X?

[Sipex]

A big one for me:

Attacks of Opportunity are only provoked in one of two ways.
- The defending party leaves a threatened square without shifting (5 foot step)
- The defending party makes a Ranged or Area attack while within a threatened square.

That said, how well do you know 4e? Do you know about the experience budget when building encounters for example?

[Drglenn]

Combat is a lot easier to set up and balance in 4e than 3.X (gorram CR system)
There are example setups in the DMG that give you an idea of what's easy, medium and hard for the appropriate level. Generally level-2 is easier, level-1 to level+1 is medium, level+2 is hard (I wouldn't really recommend going further than +/-2 as things get screwy).
There is a suggested framework for WBL in the DMG (its under the treasure section). Remember PCs above level 1 start with magic items of level+1,=level, level-1 and enough gold for a level-1 item (e.g. level 11 PCs start with a level 12 item, a level 11 item, a level 10 item and enough gold for another level 10 item)
Also everyone should stay on the same XP, give small, flavourful, (very) situational bonuses instead of XP rewards for good roleplaying etc

[Kurald Galain]

In general, what constitutes "Easy", "Moderate", and "Difficult" encounters for an 11th level party of maybe 6-8 people?
Normally, an equal-level encounter is easy, level+2 is moderate, level+4 is difficult. If the group is large (and yours is), encounters become easier.


Any other advice for a DM coming from 3.X?
This is not 3E. Don't assume that anything from 3E is still true in 4E.

[MLH]

In general, what constitutes "Easy", "Moderate", and "Difficult" encounters for an 11th level party of maybe 6-8 people?
Rule of thumb: an appropriate encounter for x characters of level y is made up from x monsters of level y. The DMG tells you more; basically party size combined with party level and desired difficulty gives you an XP budget, and each enemy or trap you include in a combat counts against that budget with their XP value. Try to keep monster levels within 2-3 of the character levels.

Any other advice for a DM coming from 3.X?
I'm being completely serious when I say approach it like you would a completely different system, and especially never assume you know how something works because you recognize the name. Some basic differences include:

- opportunity attacks aren't restricted to 1/round but 1/turn - when two monsters move past you, each on its turn, you get opportunity attacks against both
- Fort/Ref/Will are static defense scores that you roll attacks against; you probably knew this, but it's important to note that even passive effects like poison or traps work like this
- Saving throws are something entirely different than in 3.X, most of the time they're an unmodified d20 roll, with 10 or higher a success
- powers do what they say they do, nothing more and nothing less. You can, for example, knock a gelatinous cube prone - just apply the mechanical effect of the prone condition and come up with a description that's more intuitive and sensible than "the ooze drops flat on its back."

Good luck, if you jump in as a first-timer with such a large level 11 group, you've got your work cut out for you.

[Emongnome777]

How critical is it that the group be 11th level? It would be MUCH easier to start at a lower level (1-2, preferably).

All the other above advice is great; especially about forgetting what you knew in 3.X. Yeah, there is lots of overlap, but there's enough different that it'll trip you up (standing from prone no longer provokes an OA, etc.). You may also be tempted to port over some 3.X rules that you think need to be there (or your own houserules). I'd strongly encourage you to avoid this until you play for a while. The rules are actually quite balanced and messing with them can cause problems.

[kyoryu]

Good luck, if you jump in as a first-timer with such a large level 11 group, you've got your work cut out for you.

THIS.

Also:

Also, 4e combat is very different than 3e combat. Tactical placement is very important. Using critters of different roles properly is very important.

Go HARD on the players with an encounter that's set up properly. It's easier to back off if necessary, and the players will come up with way more than you expect them to. You don't have to politely not attack the mage - the fighter now has abilities to stop you from getting to the mage, and it's his job to do so.

Don't worry about knocking players out, there's plenty of ways for them to get back up. 4e combat tends to be "bouncier" than 3.x.

There's far fewer "save or..." type effects.

Adding players seems to have a superlinear effect. 8 characters are not 33% more effective than 6 - more like 50%-100% more effective.

Hit points represent short-term endurance more than anything, while healing surges remaining more closely represent overall condition. You should be knocking someone out every fight, or close to.

[Katana_Geldar]

How critical is it that the group be 11th level? It would be MUCH easier to start at a lower level (1-2, preferably).


Yeah, and speaking as a DM who has players at 14th level, Paragon is hard for a first timer. As people can do things on almost all their actions.

The main problem with 4e is the little details that have to be remembered with the conditions. If you don't have a DM's screen, GET ONE.

Encounters in 4e work differently too, as monsters use different rulews to players. Players are designed to hit hard and have few hitpoints, the reverse is the case with monsters. In 4e, players can safely take on monsters five levels above them.

[Surrealistik]

Encounters in 4e work differently too, as monsters use different rulews to players. Players are designed to hit hard and have few hitpoints, the reverse is the case with monsters. In 4e, players can safely take on monsters five levels above them.

Depends on the monster; there are some really poorly designed mobs out there.

[Katana_Geldar]

It's a general rule of thumb, and I make my own mobs usually.

It's also a very good argument against PvP. :smallwink:

But, monster level is quite significant in 3.5, so I hear. An inexperienced 3.5 DM can easily kill his players, as I so found in my first session.

[kyoryu]

Depends on the monster; there are some really poorly designed mobs out there.

True, but they're a significant minority. In general, you can pretty well trust the xp values.

And if you pull one of those out, you can always go to the standard DM "keep the party alive because I screwed up" bag o' tricks: suboptimal combat choices, forgetting actions, forgetting powers, adjusting hp down, etc.

[Surrealistik]

True, but they're a significant minority. In general, you can pretty well trust the xp values.

And if you pull one of those out, you can always go to the standard DM "keep the party alive because I screwed up" bag o' tricks: suboptimal combat choices, forgetting actions, forgetting powers, adjusting hp down, etc.

Yes, but I'd argue monster design is such that you can't really make a declaration like 'players can safely take on monsters 5 levels above them' with confidence, unless you're throwing out homebrew, or your party is high/theory op.

[Katana_Geldar]

Take on means "able to hit occassionally and live to tell the tale" and it really depends on the party. A 4e party that uses their powers and positioning well to work as a group is a force to be reckoned with. I have to try and catch up to them, honestly.

[Surrealistik]

It certainly does depend on the party. That said though, generally a party needs to be well-optimized to deal with non-minion CL+5 monsters, unless they enjoy some special advantage (terrain is really synergistic with their powers, or otherwise extremely beneficial for example).

[Katana_Geldar]

This is what the DMG says. My level 13 players took on a Death Knight several sessions ago. They didn't defeat him, but did do damage and were able to escape, which I wanted them to do anyway.

If they had defeated him, they would have gotten the XP.

[Justicar]

Don't be afraid to utilize the tools that Wizards gives you. While the Adventures Tools (both web-based and classic) require a DDI account, there is one tool that is free and pertains one of your questions.

The Encounter Builder (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/tool.aspx?x=dnd/4new/tool/bonus/encounterbuilder) gives you a basis for an "Easy", "Moderate" and "Difficult" encounters. For example, for a Lvl 11 encounter of eight players is says:
Difficulty Level Range XP Range
Easy 9-10 3200-4799
Moderate 11-12 4800-6399
Hard 13-15 6400-1199

Also, it has the option to help 'build' the encounter by moving monsters from the MB to the encounter and tracking the XP as well as a way to click on the monster to bring the stats up on the browser. Then you can just print that page and go. Granted, this doesn't allow you the ability to adjust the monsters stats or create new monsters, but as a new 4e DM, that's not a bad thing yet.

I do echo that it may be better to start at a lower level, especially with 8 (!) players as a new DM to a new system. If you're worried about not having enough powers, start them at Lvl 6. You'll have two Encounters, Dailies and Utilities in addition to their At-Wills then. A tad more exciting and won't have to worry about Paragon Action abilities, which I've seen trip up experienced players.

[Snowbody]

Encounter builder now requires D&DI.

[Justicar]

Encounter builder now requires D&DI.

Really? Because I'm usually not signed in when I use it... I'll doublecheck when I get back home.

[Badgerish]

With the notes on 'easy monsters' and things: there is much more balance between monsters than there was in 3.5, but they sure aren't identical. MM1/MM2 monsters are often rather weak for their XP, but the new monsters from MM3/darksun/Monster Vault have been tuned up a lot.

6-8 players? Ouch. Balancing that will be difficult, I suggest low-balling to start then adding reinforcements.

I strongly, strongly suggest not starting at lvl11. 1st level is a lot more tenable than in 3.5, but splitting the difference and starting at 6th is a better option than 11th.

[Merk]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.


A big one for me:

Attacks of Opportunity are only provoked in one of two ways.
- The defending party leaves a threatened square without shifting (5 foot step)
- The defending party makes a Ranged or Area attack while within a threatened square.

That said, how well do you know 4e? Do you know about the experience budget when building encounters for example?

That's very useful to note. Thanks. I know "about" the EXP budget but I need to actually learn how to use it.


There are example setups in the DMG that give you an idea of what's easy, medium and hard for the appropriate level. Generally level-2 is easier, level-1 to level+1 is medium, level+2 is hard (I wouldn't really recommend going further than +/-2 as things get screwy).
There is a suggested framework for WBL in the DMG (its under the treasure section). Remember PCs above level 1 start with magic items of level+1,=level, level-1 and enough gold for a level-1 item (e.g. level 11 PCs start with a level 12 item, a level 11 item, a level 10 item and enough gold for another level 10 item)
Also everyone should stay on the same XP, give small, flavourful, (very) situational bonuses instead of XP rewards for good roleplaying etc

Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for.


This is not 3E. Don't assume that anything from 3E is still true in 4E.

Noted.


Good luck, if you jump in as a first-timer with such a large level 11 group, you've got your work cut out for you.

Thanks, this is all solid info.


How critical is it that the group be 11th level? It would be MUCH easier to start at a lower level (1-2, preferably).

Unfortunately, at this point the characters have been created and the session is tomorrow, I couldn't ask my players to switch on a dime. I'll deal with it. The worst that can happen is that I get overwhelmed by the game at that level, but for this kind of game (it'll be pretty zany) hopefully that won't be a huge issue.


Go HARD on the players with an encounter that's set up properly. It's easier to back off if necessary, and the players will come up with way more than you expect them to. You don't have to politely not attack the mage - the fighter now has abilities to stop you from getting to the mage, and it's his job to do so.

Awesome stuff, I will keep that in mind.


Don't be afraid to utilize the tools that Wizards gives you. While the Adventures Tools (both web-based and classic) require a DDI account, there is one tool that is free and pertains one of your questions.

Excellente. I will look into this.

[Yakk]

Probably too late, but here goes...

You get one Immediate action per round. This resets on your turn.

You cannot use "response" actions -- immediate and opportunity -- on your turn.

You can shift or charge through difficult terrain if you pay the extra move cost.

"Towards" and "away" is a common concept (if not ever called that). Towards means "move with strictly fewer squares", and away is "strictly more squares". When charging you have to always be moving towards your target. When pushing, you must always be moving the target away from you. When pulling, you must always be moving the target towards you.

You get one opportunity action for each turn other than your own.

You get one free action attack per turn (you cannot use two free action attacks on the same turn), but this is mainly a problem in epic.

Reactions happen after the trigger, and cannot stop it.

Interrupts happen before the trigger, and if they prevent the action from happening, the triggering action is wasted.

Space is square. Diagonals cost 1 to move, same for range.

Standard, Move, Minor, with optional downgrades.

Avoid using monsters 6 or more levels higher than the party, or soldiers 4 or more levels higher than the party.

Don't forget to roll for recharge!

Don't forget your elite/solo monster action points.

[Drglenn]

You can shift or charge through difficult terrain if you pay the extra move cost.
(emphasis mine)
This is wrong, you cannot shift in difficult terrain

[Surrealistik]

(emphasis mine)
This is wrong, you cannot shift in difficult terrain

Yakk is actually right; normally you cannot use the shift 1 as a move action because it takes 2 movement to enter an area of difficult terrain.

[Kurald Galain]

(emphasis mine)
This is wrong, you cannot shift in difficult terrain
You most certainly can, as long as you either have a way of shifting more than one square, or you're an elf.

[Snowbody]

The only place you can't shift are auras, zones, or terrain that specifically include "you can't shift" (or if you're hit with a status effect that says you can't shift).

[Merk]

For anyone curious, I just wrapped up the one-shot. I ended up not following a bunch of guidelines, fudged a whole lot of things on the fly, used poorly balanced homebrew, and generally didn't know anything about the rules... but everyone walked away laughing, saying they enjoyed the game, in some cases "the best DMing they ever had". So I'm pretty happy with how it turned out.

It was also cool for me because I got a lot of insight into 4e as a system and what it plays like compared to 3.X

[Snowbody]

Curious? Of course we're curious! Details, please! What worked well? What did the players enjoy? What did you think was "poorly balanced" about the hombrew, and how did it work in practice? What were some of your on-the-fly rulings that made the game work?

[Merk]

So, we ended up with seven 11th-level characters. We had a rogue, fighter, wizard, bard, ranger, assassin, and druid. Some of the players were new, but thankfully one of the players knew the rules quite well and could quickly cite something obscure I didn't know. I used Sizzle Cards (http://www.stupidranger.com/2009/06/sizzle-cards-a-fun-way-to-add-excitement-to-a-campaign.php) (a traditional aspect of many of my adventures/campaigns), many of the effects pulled from this list of Random Magical Effects (http://www.traykon.com/pdf/The_Net_Libram_of_Random_Magical_Effects.pdf).

The adventure in a nutshell is that a farmer had his entire farm taken over by a demon named Jehosephat, and he wanted VENGEANCE. When they got to the farm, the barn was sealed in a force cage, with a note from Jehosephat saying that they had to complete typical farming tasks to break the barrier: Milk the cows, feed the picks, pick some crops, and stable the horses. This led to encounters with:


4 Nightmares (painted badly to look like horses)
7 Minotaurs (in unconvincing cowprint clothing)
1 Thunderfury Boar (in a cutesy and obvious pig outfit) (later named Carlito and adopted by the fighter)
1 Shambling mound (hiding in the explosive corn crops) and a battle wight (posing as a scarecrow)


The nightmares (by unwary use of a sizzle card) were fought directly in front of the barn, and they were actually a difficult encounter for the party. In the end, the rogue managed to mount and tame one of them, and the assassin turned into one (again by virtue of a sizzle).

After that, they fought the minotaurs in a tall, swirling bell tower. I made a board game-like board representing a spiral staircase, and in the middle was a giant, swinging milk bucket that careened in various directions into the sides of the tower on each turn (rolling 1d8 for direction and saves to avoid damage). Judicious use of "slide" powers made the encounter pretty easy for them.

Then they fought the lone thunderfury boar in his pen, complete with troughs filled with lava. They managed to subdue it (not without some difficulty), and the fighter rolled a nat 20 to shove it into his bag of holding with a strength check.

Finally, they went into the crop field and found a wight and a shambling mound fighting them while hiding in rows of tomatoes, corn, cabbage, wheat, and cotton. The tomatoes could be thrown for fire damage, the corn could explode, the cabbage produced a stinking cloud, the wheat could cure conditions, and the cotton could absorb blows. This pretty went without a hitch for them, although they pretty much burned all of the crops by the time the encounter was over (this is typical PC behavior though).

The "last encounter" was in two parts. In the first part, they faced off against Jehosephat, a dragonborn demon in farmer's attire. He had great defensive stats, but he had no powers or feats or even class levels save for Commoner 1 and Chicken Infested. Cue a mob of phrenic, acid-spitting chicken mobs for them to deal with. After they offed Jehosephat, all of the chickens were released from his sack and fused into the gigantic chicken-dragon Bairngod, Master of Cluck and Proprietor of the Autumn's Harvest Martial Discipline. Bairngod had piles and piles of HP but low defenses, so the party had a fairly easy time with him, though BG did give them a hurtin'. The assassin finally played my favorite sizzle card in the deck: Ultimate Sacrifice, Ultimate Victory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101008)

My narration:


Hold on, I have to get my body ready for this.

*Quietly*

You hear footsteps and the clank of armor from a distance. As the sound draws nearer, you hear a steady chant.
"... Victory."
"... Victory."

The sound draws closer still.
"... Sacrifice. ... Victory."
"... Sacrifice. ... Victory."

The quiet chant erupts into a growing roar.
"Ultimate sacrifice, ultimate victory."
"Ultimate sacrifice, ultimate victory."

Suddenly, a horde of warriors in full plate burst in through the barn door, their swords blazing with sacred fire!
"Ultimate sacrifice, ultimate victory!"
"Ultimate sacrifice, ultimate victory!"
"ULTIMATE SACRIFICE, ULTIMATE VICTORY!"

They rush Bairngod as you lead the charge, dealing (your attack power) + fifteen d6 damage.

HOWEVER!

In doing so, you assume the Come At Me Bro Stance. All of your defenses drop to 0 for the round and the enemy will focus on you.

After that? Said assassin used a power to become incorporeal for 1 turn. Brilliant :D

They defeated Bairngod handily, and then for no apparent reason the rogue brutally murdered the farmer. o_o

The encounter with the nightmares was probably the most difficult, and the combination of Jehosephat's relative lack of offense and Bairngod's relative lack of defense made the final encounter fairly easy for them (This is what I mean by poorly balanced).

So many times, I forgot what Status Effect X does, so I just ruled it as -2 to something or the other. This pretty much never caused a problem, and I didn't have to rules reference in the middle of a session, which I absolutely hate.

But the players really enjoyed it for the most part, noting the sizzle cards in particular (I have used them for many previous 3.P campaigns, and nearly everybody I play with loves them; that said, they're obviously not for every campaign, and I'm in the middle of running a more serious campaign that sizzles would be entirely out of place in).

Edit: As a side note, I <3 you GITP for all your awesome homebrewers.

[Kurald Galain]

I used Sizzle Cards (http://www.stupidranger.com/2009/06/sizzle-cards-a-fun-way-to-add-excitement-to-a-campaign.php)

I like it; that sounds much better than WOTC's fortune cards.

[Yakk]

(emphasis mine)
This is wrong, you cannot shift in difficult terrain
It is a badly written rule.

It says "you cannot shift into difficult terrain, unless you can shift more than 1 square". The short form on the DM's screen (or somewhere else) just has the "you cannot shift into difficult terrain".

I had that wrong for the first 3 years I played 4e myself.