DnD physics... sounds fun

[OracleofSilence]

while magic bends the laws of the universe, it doesn't, in my mind at least, break them.

consider. in the Great Wheel cosmology, there are the elemental planes, the energy planes, and the plane of shadow.

fire and positive energy both entropy (fluff says that negative energy does that, but it actually pulls energy out of the universe, thus by the laws of thermodynamics, it is order)

the plane of water, earth, negative energy, and the quasi elemental plane of ice all are sources order (ie they reduce the heat energy of a substance, and can absorb any quantity of heat, due to its infinite space, and thus infinite heat capacity)

therefore we have: the perfect heat engine infinite heat energy and infinite heat sinks.

so, i ask the more scientific side of the playground... what the hell would this do? how would this change physics? and more over what would this let you do? i am looking for really off the wall theoretical stuff.

[hamishspence]

this essay:

http://mimir.net/essays/planarphysics.html

discussed "D&D physics" rather well.

[Shadowknight12]

Uh no. No, that's not how entropy works. Energy and heat do not equal disorder. Removing energy or heat from a system does not necessarily make it more ordered.

Yes, an ideal amount of matter with no entropy would need to be 100% pure, perfectly ordered and at 0 Kelvin, but that doesn't mean that removing heat/energy from a system equals order. Furthermore, negative energy doesn't remove heat/energy. On the contrary, it infuses things with energy (negative energy, to be exact), thereby introducing more energy to the system.

[OracleofSilence]

while it does not necessarily mean that, my argument is that with care, the elemental planes can cause it to do that. magic can channel entropic energy into a heat sync, and then use the products to increase order. i am not arguing that this is possible in real life just that it can be done through careful use of spell casting. entropy does increase, but when you have an infinite source of still ordered material the net gain in entropy is in effect nonexistent, because finite increases cannot effect infinity. this is not infinite order, it is just a way of reducing disorder. it can keep entropy constant on the material plane, i don't think it can reduce it over all.

and yes while negative energy is still an energy source, according to the fluff it drains another energy source (read positive energy)

[Anderlith]

There are only two things that exist. Matter (As in any thing that takes up space) & Energy. Nothing cold in the sense of cold makes things eternally colder. Coldness is just the absence of heat energy. Cold happens when there is an imbalance of heat energy in matter.

[Shadowknight12]

while it does not necessarily mean that, my argument is that with care, the elemental planes can cause it to do that. magic can channel entropic energy into a heat sync, and then use the products to increase order. i am not arguing that this is possible in real life just that it can be done through careful use of spell casting. entropy does increase, but when you have an infinite source of still ordered material the net gain in entropy is in effect nonexistent, because finite increases cannot effect infinity. this is not infinite order, it is just a way of reducing disorder. it can keep entropy constant on the material plane, i don't think it can reduce it over all.

and yes while negative energy is still an energy source, according to the fluff it drains another energy source (read positive energy)

But but BUT there IS no sUcH thING as ENTROPY ENERGY. I-I-I... :smallfurious:

Okay. I can't do this. Mixing D&D and actual physics is beyond my current capabilities.

[OracleofSilence]

not eternally colder, just that it can keep grabbing heat that is channeled into it. and just as a reminder, the purpose of this thread is not to debate the nature of entropy in DnD, but to find interesting tricks that can be used to manipulate these planes.

in dnd there is. this isn't real life. they commonly refer to the ""manipulation of entropy" they even have the "entropomancer" for this purpose, leave reality by the wayside.

[Anderlith]

How does a negative exist?

[Divide by Zero]

Negative energy is kind of like antimatter. Unlike cold, it's a real, measurable thing, but it still destroys positive energy when they interact.

[aquaticrna]

How does a negative exist?

negitive energy is a very real phenomenon it's very weird, but it happens, as for how that would effect physics, it would mean that physics doesn't work, with two permanent gates you can produce infinite energy, like running water from the plane of water to the plane of air with a turbine in between, or from the plane of fire to the plane of anything else with a heat engine in the middle, really it means that you build these machines everywhere you need power and power ANYTHING

[Anderlith]

Antimatter still exists, it still takes up space, it still functions according to the laws of physics. It only happens to destroy matter. It doesn't annihilate it.

Antimatter is not a negative as it's name implies. It is a counterpoint. A foil. An equal opposite

[hamishspence]

Isn't negative matter (what's repelled rather than attracted by gravity, and not demonstrated to exist yet) the stuff that's needed to keep open wormholes, in most theories that use them?

[Ravens_cry]

Isn't negative matter (what's repelled rather than attracted by gravity, and not demonstrated to exist yet) the stuff that's needed to keep open wormholes, in most theories that use them?
Yep. Alcubierre drives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive) require similar exotic matter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exotic_matter).

[Salanmander]

in dnd there is. this isn't real life. they commonly refer to the ""manipulation of entropy" they even have the "entropomancer" for this purpose, leave reality by the wayside.

It's really hard to do that when you include "by the laws of thermodynamics" in your original post. Are we supposed to ignore physics or not.


(And yeah, the removes energy --> opposite of entropy is....um..... .... ...special.)

[noparlpf]

Well, it doesn't change physics. It just allows some ideal situations to happen and makes all the physicists very, very happy.

Also, physics in D&D could have used a bit more work before publication. Check out the jump DCs and carrying capacities. (They are my pet peeve.)

[Ravens_cry]

I think we can agree that whatever kind of universe D&D could take place in would have very different physics than the one Earth resides in., even if you follow the philosophy that the rules are a generalization of said laws rather than, strictly speaking, the laws of physics themselves of said hypothetical universe.

Still, technically speaking, breaking the true laws of physics is impossible, and that includes D&D magic in a D&D world. If something happens, it must be able to happen. The laws of physics are only 'broken' when our codified understanding and explanations are violated, like when Newtons theories did not predict Mercury orbit correctly. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation#Newton.27s_theory_of_gravitation) A new theory had to be thought up to resolve this.

For a more basic example, imagine you were watching checkers without knowing the rules at all. You could start to get ideas on how the game is played, making a Theory of Piece Movement that says, among other things "Pieces can only move toward opposing ends of the board." But then, if a piece reaches the end of the board, you would need a new theory, in this case a simple addendum "Pieces that reach the opposite side of the board from where they started can move in both directions."

D&D physics would be different from ours, a different game to continue the checkers metaphor, but I would argue it still could be said to follow knowable rules.
Vaarsuvius is wrong.

[Xtomjames]

I disagree, I'd argue that the D&D universe is probably very much like our real one. First and explanation of entropy.

Entropy is the movement towards least order or chaos. For example a sand castle has low entropy because it has a very ordered state, you can never recreate that exact same sand castle after it's been destroyed, rearrange it to make it look like a house and it's no longer a sand castle. Smash it and make a mound of sound you have high entropy. You can rearrange that mound and its still a mound of sand.

objects move from low to high entropy this gives us the arrow of time.

Now the whole various planes idea isn't actually farfetched and is based on multiverse theory, though only loosely. Concepts of time stop, invisibility, and "magic" aren't as far fetched either.

As for them being perfect anything, hardly. All of those planes would still follow the laws of thermodynamics, even magic in D&D uses thermodynamics believe it or not. For example, conservation of energy. Magical power is like a currency of energy. It transfers from one state to another. The amount you have per day is limited each spell slot represents an amount of power your character has which gets transformed into action which we classify as a magical effect. Magic follows work, flow, end of work and conserves the energy.

Ironically the D&D universe is very much like our own.

[Ravens_cry]

A perpetual motion machine is the easiest thing in the world to build in D&D. One decanter of endless water plus one water wheel, plus one portal to the plane of water equals endless power. Or a permanent wall of fire if you want to get steampunk. Where is the energy for that coming from? The energy it takes to cast the spell in no way equals that which can be gotten from either device.
Clearly, the laws of thermodynamics at the very least have some very interesting exceptions in a D&D universe.

[aquaticrna]

as soon as you introduce truly infinite amounts of matter you have infinite energy sources, especially when you can connect those places to infinite planes of nothing

[Pigkappa]

Ironically the D&D universe is very much like our own.

Just one word to say that "physics" and "D&D" can't stand together: Teleport.

[Xtomjames]

A perpetual motion machine is the easiest thing in the world to build in D&D. One decanter of endless water plus one water wheel, plus one portal to the plane of water equals endless power. Or a permanent wall of fire if you want to get steampunk. Where is the energy for that coming from? The energy it takes to cast the spell in no way equals that which can be gotten from either device.
Clearly, the laws of thermodynamics at the very least have some very interesting exceptions in a D&D universe.

Well first off it still does follow most of the laws of thermodynamics and fluid dynamics. What more we don't know everything about our own universe and we even know believe that at the quantum level at least energy doesn't have to be conserved and can spark out of nothing.

However it wouldn't necessarily be a perpetual motion machine per-se because we don't have defined orders of rules for interplaner interaction.

Though your premise to use other planes in your example is unnecessary. The decanter of endless water and a water wheel would suffice.

I was just saying that the D&D universe is much LIKE ours, I never said they were the same. Magic in and unto its self breaks some basic or fundamental laws of our universe but over all the two are very much the same.

Edit: On the contrary D&D and Physics stand together all too often, it's one of the reasons for the range increments on long range weapons, for gravity, etc. What more in the real world we have actually teleported electrons over a great distance, it's only a matter of time before we send more complex packets of information and then potentially full on matter.

[Ravens_cry]

as soon as you introduce truly infinite amounts of matter you have infinite energy sources, especially when you can connect those places to infinite planes of nothing

You can also think with portals, sending water between two vertical placed facing permanenced teleportation circles. Put a water wheel in between and voilà, indefinite power.
Edit: Xtomjames This answers your question. Undead could also be said to give indefinite power with no obvious source.

[Xtomjames]

as soon as you introduce truly infinite amounts of matter you have infinite energy sources, especially when you can connect those places to infinite planes of nothing

Unfortunately that logic is flawed, mainly because infinite as a term is hard to pin down, what we define as an infinite varies.

If we have infinite planes of "nothing" then when compared to the infinite planes that have something (energy) and we average them, we actually end up with nothing because the infinite nothing planes will actually out number our "infinite" series of planes with something.

Thus energy is still finite, relatively speaking. The mechanics of magic in D&D are perplexing to real world physics, but if you really want to put a realistic flavor to the D&D world we can remove "unlimited" items and make them "unlimited through power input" items. That would mean a person would have to use energy slots of their own to power the item for it to work. Rather than just activating it and then leaving.

[Xtomjames]

You can also think with portals, sending water between two vertical placed facing permanenced teleportation circles. Put a water wheel in between and voilà, indefinite power.
Edit: Xtomjames This answers your question. Undead could also be said to give indefinite power with no obvious source.


Well first off it wasn't my question, second off we're talking about a Conceptual world. Perpetual motion machines in any conceptual world work just fine, but the definition of a perpetual motion machine is a machine that has no friction and is capable of transferring 100% of its energy from one medium to another to keep the machine working. Technically speaking none of the examples thus far are perpetual motion machines. The energy you'd gain out of them would never meet the energy spent to create them. There is also rules for permanent portals to other dimensions and permanent holes.

Conceptually fine you've found One physical law that can be broken, that still doesn't dissuade my point that the real universe and the D&D universe are much more a like than different. And you can't deny this because We created it and based it on our only source as to what a universe can and is, our own.

[Morph Bark]

But but BUT there IS no sUcH thING as ENTROPY ENERGY. I-I-I... :smallfurious:

Okay. I can't do this. Mixing D&D and actual physics is beyond my current capabilities.

The problem is that D&D physics and real world physics are different, hence why you can have acid energy, negative life and teleportation.

Basically, you add some energies, subtract some matters, swirl it around with a few extra dimensions and you've got it.

[Ravens_cry]

Well first off it wasn't my question, second off we're talking about a Conceptual world. Perpetual motion machines in any conceptual world work just fine, but the definition of a perpetual motion machine is a machine that has no friction and is capable of transferring 100% of its energy from one medium to another to keep the machine working. Technically speaking none of the examples thus far are perpetual motion machines. The energy you'd gain out of them would never meet the energy spent to create them. There is also rules for permanent portals to other dimensions and permanent holes.

That's one of the kinds of perpetual motion machine. There are others (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion). Also, I don't believe you are at all correct in saying the energy used to create them can not equal the kind it takes to make them. Wall of Fire is fire without fuel or oxygen and can be made so it is always forever and ever. It is the second kind of perpetual motion machine, one that breaks the law of thermodynamics says energy can not be created. How is the waving of the hands, a few mumbled syllables, equal to that? As 'simple' a D&D device as a Continual Flame does the same thing. It creates energy.


Conceptually fine you've found One physical law that can be broken, that still doesn't dissuade my point that the real universe and the D&D universe are much more a like than different. And you can't deny this because We created it and based it on our only source as to what a universe can and is, our own.
Three actually (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics), three very basic, very fundamental laws of our universe. I am sure I could think of others, but the very fact that there is a separate universe in D&D, where fire burns infinitly without fuel or oxidiser, yet produces heat, but not carbon dioxide, tells me there is much more than meets the eye.
Positive and negative energy are another example, not of breaking the laws of thermodynamics, though it can if you work it right, but of biology, being elan vitals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lan_vital), when such ideas where discarded by most shortly after urea was synthesized from inorganic non-living components.

[Xtomjames]

That's one of the kinds of perpetual motion machine. There are others (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion). Also, I don't believe you are at all correct in saying the energy used to create them can not equal the kind it takes to make them. Wall of Fire is fire without fuel or oxygen and can be made so it is always forever and ever. It is the second kind of perpetual motion machine, one that breaks the law of thermodynamics says energy can not be created. How is the waving of the hands, a few mumbled syllables, equal to that? As 'simple' a D&D device as a Continual Flame does the same thing. It creates energy.

Three actually (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics), three very basic, very fundamental laws of our universe. I am sure I could think of others, but the very fact that there is a separate universe in D&D, where fire burns infinitly without fuel or oxidiser, yet produces heat, but not carbon dioxide, tells me there is much more than meets the eye.
Positive and negative energy are another example, not of breaking the laws of thermodynamics, though it can if you work it right, but of biology, being elan vitals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lan_vital), when such ideas where discarded by most shortly after urea was synthesized from inorganic non-living components.

You're assuming a lot, Wall of fire as an example actually does need an oxidizer, even if it is fueled by magic. You should really read the rules for magic in space. Wall of fire and any fire spell used in space won't operate. It's not infinite it has a time limit and the person casting the spell will eventually run out of spell slots which means s/he is using energy up to create the fire. All fire spells create plasma (fire). Not all fires produce carbon dioxide.

Your biology bit has no relevance what so ever, or if it does you haven't explained it well.

If we're talking about universal origins and gods we have no evidence that proves or disproves the concept of a god or creator in our universe, and in the D&D universe there various creation stories for the various campaign settings. Some campaign settings treat magic as a running out commodity, in Faerun it's connected to an extra-dimensional powersource called the Weave, which we don't know much about and by all logical thought is probably limited in supply.

so again we're talking about the breaking of a single law, which I don't think it is technically breaking actually. Again your point doesn't disprove that the two universes are in fact alike in many ways.

Edit: (If we presume for a moment that the magic used to power "unlimited" items comes from the weave or shadow-weave we can't presume that either source is infinite. This means that presuming that they're finite eventually an "unlimited' item will use of the magic of the source weave. Thus it's not perpetual at all. A permanent portal that water is falling through will eventually use up it's magic source, the water will eventually evaporate, escape the flow of the tunnel and run out. Or worse if it is attached to the plane of water which is finite and has boundaries (as do all planes which is how we differentiate them) one plane would eventually merge with the attached plane and the "perpetual movement" would cease.

[Ravens_cry]

I don't think you get how basic the laws of thermodynamics are. Even if a wall of fire uses oxygen, it still isn't using any kind of fuel. The plane of fire is double damned as if it actually used oxidiser, then it should be full of carbon dioxide. Yet, by the descriptions they are not. Further more, the plane of air (as well as the others), should have a black hole (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/10/30/ten-things-you-dont-know-about-black-holes/). (see #10)
I do have another though, faster than light travel. With greater teleport and sufficient distance, you can break the speed of light faster than a squirrel on a peanut.
I am not saying they don't have their similarities. Things fall, sun shines, dragons fly in anti-magic fields. Wait what? There is no way that dragons, given mass and wingspan, should be able to fly without twisting up the laws of aerodynamics as exist in our universe and chucking them in the corner.
We can leave a religious discussion out of this.

[Maphreal]

Just one word to say that "physics" and "D&D" can't stand together: Teleport.

I disagree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation). Granted, we're a long way off from teleporting say, a human, but I wouldn't throw it off as impossible.

However, I would agree with your point that D&D's physics are much different than our world's physics. The rules and settings determine said physics, and we end up with things like the Commoner Accelerator. I also promise you, no matter how many boars I kill, I will never have the HP to survive falling out of a plane, which wouldn't be a major feat for any appropriately leveled class.

[Anderlith]

:smallsigh:They just need to cast Protection Heisenburg Uncertainty... oh never mind...