3.5 Barbarian//Rogue gestalt of awesome?

[maximus25]

I think a Barbarian rogue gestalt would be amazing. Full BAB, d12 hit die, greataxe sneak attack of rape.

What do you guys think? How would this look over 20 levels of each as a progression? Have you tried this or heard about it? Any suggestions?


I'm thinking of playing this in a gestalt game my friend is running.

[Cog]

It'd depend very much on what other people are bringing to the table. Barbarian doesn't bring much toward gaining your sneak attack damage, other than making flanking more survivable, but that still depends on your teammates - or on things like Wild Cohorts that lose ground in a gestalt game. A lot of the skills that Rogue brings to the table might get shut down by Rage (especially UMD), depending on where you spend those new points, but it could at least give you some social utility beyond Intimidate.

[maximus25]

It'd depend very much on what other people are bringing to the table. Barbarian doesn't bring much toward gaining your sneak attack damage, other than making flanking more survivable, but that still depends on your teammates - or on things like Wild Cohorts that lose ground in a gestalt game. A lot of the skills that Rogue brings to the table might get shut down by Rage (especially UMD), depending on where you spend those new points, but it could at least give you some social utility beyond Intimidate.

But I won't need to do any real UMD checks in combat, and the rage ends after the encounter.

[Flickerdart]

Barbarian doesn't need anything a Rogue can offer - he can Trapfind with Trapkiller ACF, sneak around with the Fox Spirit Totem, and rip heads off more easily than Rogues can. However, trade away enough stuff from Rogue and Barbarian and you can probably get something happening.

[maximus25]

So if Barbarian rogue is a flop, what is an amazing gestalt combination? Nothing too gamebreaking, but something fun?

[Xtomjames]

This depends on if you're looking at the variants for barbarian. A Barbarian Rogue gestalted that took the Barb variants of lion spirit totem and frenzied attack (assault) would be very powerful. Though personally I prefer the Rogue Monk gestalt construction or the Rogue Fighter gestalted construction.

Rogue Warlock gestalted works wonders as well, especially if you take the invocation eldtritch glaive and apply it to your sneak attack.

The absolute best gestalt combo I've come up with so far is Warlock Artificer, especially when you reach level 12.

[maximus25]

This depends on if you're looking at the variants for barbarian. A Barbarian Rogue gestalted that took the Barb variants of lion spirit totem and frenzied attack (assault) would be very powerful. Though personally I prefer the Rogue Monk gestalt construction or the Rogue Fighter gestalted construction.

Rogue Warlock gestalted works wonders as well, especially if you take the invocation eldtritch glaive and apply it to your sneak attack.

Rogue monk gestalt? Like, destroying people with flurry of blows to their kidneys with your fists? Also sneak attack?

[Flickerdart]

So if Barbarian rogue is a flop, what is an amazing gestalt combination? Nothing too gamebreaking, but something fun?
Factotum//anything is generally great. Binder//Incarnum class is great if you love bookkeeping. Barbarian is a decent complement to classes that would otherwise lack the BAB and HP for a melee role - a Barbarian//Monk is pretty good if your DM can forgive the alignment conflict. Barbarian//Totemist works quite nicely too, and is very flavorful. Druid//Barbarian is nice as well (cast your spells and Wildshape before you rage to get the benefit of all three, or use Mounted Fury to share rage with your companion!).


The absolute best gestalt combo I've come up with so far is Warlock Artificer, especially when you reach level 12.
Consider a dip into Chameleon - that floating bonus feat is great for crafting.

[ericgrau]

Rogue monk gestalt? Like, destroying people with flurry of blows to their kidneys with your fists? Also sneak attack?
Attack bonus is too low. The actual number of hits you land might even go down.

Barbarian // rogue is actually pretty good in that full BAB, plus sneak attack, plus strength damage on top of that, plus a solution to the rogue's fragility all combine very well, it's just that someone figured out how to do it with ACFs instead of rogue. Perhaps you could do ACF Barbarian // something else entirely, or if that doesn't fly with your DM, go back to barbarian // rogue.

[Cog]

So if Barbarian rogue is a flop...
I didn't say that - just that it does depend on what everybody else is doing. The two classes don't really build on each other, but they fill in each other's gaps to some degree, and I suspect it's not far off from what gestalt was meant to achieve. The problem would come if your teammates are, say, Wizard//Factotum types.


Rogue monk gestalt? Like, destroying people with flurry of blows to their kidneys with your fists? Also sneak attack?
You can achieve this with Barbarian as well, if you can avoid the alignment issues by timing your levels/talking with your DM/choosing variants. Ascetic Rogue lets Rogue progress Monk unarmed damage, so you can do Barb/Rogue with a splash of Monk and still get the effect.

[Ravens_cry]

SRD, I would go thug Sneak Attack Fighter instead of rogue, in a sneak attacker//monk. Same skill points, but you actually need full BAB to turn the monks flurry of blows into more than a flurry of whiffs.
For a Barbarian//Rogue, it sounds fun. I would take the Whirling Frenzy. More attacks means more chances to give them the ol' sneak attack. It may not be as optimized as some "I have everything, everything!" gestalt builds, but it does sound like it could work.

[maximus25]

Attack bonus is too low. The actual number of hits you land could go down.

Barbarian // rogue is actually pretty good in that full BAB, plus sneak attack, plus strength damage on top of that, plus a solution to the rogue's fragility all combine very well, it's just that someone figured out how to do it with ACFs instead of rogue.

So is rogue//barbarian viable or not? Because if it is I'm going to do it.

[Xtomjames]

Chameleon is alright, but not necessary. A Warlock at level 12 can imbue any spell into any item with a use magic item check. Stack this with the item creation feats (all of them because an Artificer gets them all) and metamagic feats and you have a very potent combination.

Best trick that I love is a permanent permanency ring with the spell trigger used upon imbuing an item. Makes any magic imbued onto any item permanent. Use it to create mundane magical tattoos not subject to the magical tattoo rules in game.

see my page here for more info: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Optimized_Epic_Level_Gestalt_Warlock_Artificer_Hel lfire_Warlock

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Epic_Invocation_Creation

[Xtomjames]

So is rogue//barbarian viable or not? Because if it is I'm going to do it.

It is but it's not the best build. Be sure if you do it to take the lion spirit totem, it replaces your fast movement but gives you the pounce ability and run as a bonus feat, and then take whirling frenzy (sorry not frenzied attack) which replaces your rage. It's more effective with the rogue abilities.

edit: They're found in Complete Champion and Unearthed Arcana respectively.

Also Nareph Charge and Deft Strike are very useful (allows you to charge and ignore their dex so you can use sneak attack during a charge, and after observing an opponent you can do a spot check to remove their armor and natural armor), close quarters fighting, Dodge Mobility Spring Attack, Combat Expertise Whirlwind attack, improved sneak attack.

Also see if your DM will let you play a Quickling.

[Flickerdart]

So is rogue//barbarian viable or not? Because if it is I'm going to do it.
You need many ACFs.

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, Whirling Frenzy, throw in Wolf Totem for giggles, go Goliath to take both the Barbarian and Rogue sub levels, grab Fangshield Barbarian while you're at it to trade away Trap Sense and Uncanny Dodge for goodies, trade away Improved Uncanny Dodge for a bonus feat as per Sandstorm, and now you have something.


It is but it's not the best build. Be sure if you do it to take the lion spirit totem, it replaces your fast movement but gives you the pounce ability and run as a bonus feat, and then take whirling frenzy (sorry not frenzied attack) which replaces your rage. It's more effective with the rogue abilities.

edit: They're found in Complete Champion and Unearthed Arcana respectively.
Spirit Lion doesn't give you Run. That's regular Lion Totem, which sucks horribly.

[maximus25]

Alright, thanks. Should I just use a greatsword instead of a greataxe or is that not allowed by the laws of barbarianism?

[ericgrau]

Depends on the level of optimization. There are 1000 damage ubercharger builds out there making more damage pointless, and someone pointed out a trick to get it without gestalt. But in most gaming groups, heck ya it's viable, more damage is nice. In core or casual power level games medium BAB and fragility are a couple of the main things that keep rogues behind real melee like barbarians in spite of their high damage per hit.

I'd consider a dwarf with some kind of speed boosting magic item like boots of speed so you can tumble a good distance in medium or heavy armor to set up your flanks. If you read the rules carefully you'll notice dwarves can tumble in medium or heavy armor.

[Flickerdart]

Alright, thanks. Should I just use a greatsword instead of a greataxe or is that not allowed by the laws of barbarianism?
Greatsword has a slight damage boost, and you get to roll d6es, which is nice if you own many d6es, but if you don't own many then take the Greataxe.

[Xtomjames]

You need many ACFs.

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian, Whirling Frenzy, throw in Wolf Totem for giggles, go Goliath to take both the Barbarian and Rogue sub levels, grab Fangshield Barbarian while you're at it to trade away Trap Sense and Uncanny Dodge for goodies, trade away Improved Uncanny Dodge for a bonus feat as per Sandstorm, and now you have something.


Spirit Lion doesn't give you Run. That's regular Lion Totem, which sucks horribly.

No, they're the same totem. See the Complete Warrior Errata. Spirit Lion Totem and Lion totem are the same thing and they grant both things.

Also look at the Elven Curve blade that is keen, or a Keen Scimitar either made of adamantine. Allows you to sunder very easily and break shields easily.

[ericgrau]

Take your pick on the weapon. At high levels a falchion usually does the most damage (but only by a hair, and only slightly behind when it doesn't), at low levels the greatsword does the most damage, but it's only 0.5 damage better than a greataxe. The other weapons sacrifice a mere 1.5 damage in exchange for special options like reach and tripping. The only two handed martial weapon that is truly sub-par is the greatclub, which has the advantage of low cost and being easy to find if you ever lose your weapon I suppose. So... depends what you want to do.

[Flickerdart]

No, they're the same totem. See the Complete Warrior Errata. Spirit Lion Totem and Lion totem are the same thing and they grant both things.

Also look at the Elven Curve blade that is keen, or a Keen Scimitar either made of adamantine. Allows you to sunder very easily and break shields easily.
Complete Warrior errata does not mention anything about Totems. Neither does Complete Champion, the book with Spirit Lion Totem. Unearthed Arcana has no errata.

Keen is useless to you because it doesn't multiply SA damage. Sundering is useless to you because it deprives you of loot and wastes actions that you can be using to kill dudes.

[maximus25]

Depends on the level of optimization. There are 1000 damage ubercharger builds out there making more damage pointless, and someone pointed out a trick to get it without gestalt. But in most gaming groups, heck ya it's viable, more damage is nice. In core or casual power level games medium BAB and fragility are a couple of the main things that keep rogues behind real melee like barbarians in spite of their high damage per hit.

I'd consider a dwarf with some kind of speed boosting magic item like boots of speed so you can tumble a good distance in medium or heavy armor to set up your flanks. If you read the rules carefully you'll notice dwarves can tumble in medium or heavy armor.

A dwarf rogue barbarian. Lol that just sounds awesome.

[Ravens_cry]

I wonder if two weapon fighting might work with this build. You get some bonuses to hit that will help make it more dependable, some pretty hefty bonus damage in the form of sneak attack, and you're durable enough to stand in melee and take those full attacks.

[Flickerdart]

I wonder if two weapon fighting might work with this build. You get some bonuses to hit that will help make it more dependable, some pretty hefty bonus damage in the form of sneak attack, and you're durable enough to stand in melee and take those full attacks.
Armour spikes and a two-hander say hello. Why imitate the puny halfling with his two daggers when you can cover your entire body with them?

[Keld Denar]

The combination of the two will lead to some decently high damage hits, which favors the Staggering Strike feat from Complete Warrior. If you keep hitting a foe, you can keep them staggered, which means you are getting full attacks and they aren't. That's a delta damage boost.

[maximus25]

The combination of the two will lead to some decently high damage hits, which favors the Staggering Strike feat from Complete Warrior. If you keep hitting a foe, you can keep them staggered, which means you are getting full attacks and they aren't. That's a delta damage boost.

Complete adventurer, but yes that feat does look great.

[Ravens_cry]

Armour spikes and a two-hander say hello. Why imitate the puny halfling with his two daggers when you can cover your entire body with them?
Ooh nasty. Who knew spikes of villainy were actually practical?:smallamused:
Edit: *Looks up Staggering Strike* Holy mother of frack! OK, its a fort save, so keep this out of your game if its undead heavy, but wow, just wow. That is a nice feat. Fort save damage dealt? Aw, yeah, baby.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ooh nasty. Who knew spikes of villainy were actually practical?:smallamused:

Spiked gauntlet/armor spikes + reach weapon.

First weapon combo I learned when I came to the forums.