My Problem With Boss Fights

[Leecros]

Allow me to set the mood.

You are playing an entertaining video game. It doesn't really matter why you like the game, it could be just a fun game, or it could have a good story, or it could look pretty. Regardless you have spent several(or hundred depending on what game it is) hours playing it through and you finally get to the last level, you know the end is near and the final boss is about to appear and the stuff shall really hit the fan. It will be you and whatever vile or powerful monstrosity the game has that is behind everything.

You enter the fight and come upon the boss in his lair!

http://www.deshow.net/d/file/animal/2009-07/cute-kitten-631-2.jpg

That Is the Wrong Picture!

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9071/thecreep.jpg

There we go! That's better :smallwink:
That was a great cut scene and introduction to the final boss*! This is going to be awesome

*OP note: it wasn't in this case, but for the sake of argument lets say that it was

Wait a second...what...what is THAT?

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2637/thecreepweakpointczsc.jpg

Either this Boss shoots Laser Throat Beams, or that is a Weak Point.

I'll give you a hint, this boss does Not have Laser Throat Beams. So there's only one thing to do...

Attack It's Weak Point for MASSIVE DAMAGE

/facepalm


Now at first this seems like a rant against Weak Points. It's not really. I understand the basis and concept of weak points and tend to agree with them. Of course there would be spots on just about everything which can be hit to inflict more harm upon the enemy. What causes more 'damage'; a stab in the arm or a stab in the heart?


My issue is with blatantly obvious weak points, especially ones that aren't foreshadowed at all. The boss noted above is probably one of the most obvious examples i've run into recently(which is why i used it). You encounter a smaller version of it several times throughout the game, you shoot it...anywhere it does not have a weak point then...and drive it off. There's absolutely no reason to believe that it would have a weak point in the future. Then onto the boss fight it has one. Completely out of the blue.

I would just like to see more creativity with them and it seems like developers tend to do it this way rather than attempt to work it into the story. I would actually like to see you have to work out where a weak point is rather than have it handed to you on a silver platter. I've seen plenty of games where you can just muscle through it and breeze past the boss's because of how painfully obvious their weak points is. I would like to see games where you actually had to slow down and think a little. I would even be okay with the introduction of a weak point before the fight as long as it wasn't a big glowy "Shoot me here" sign during the fight. There's plenty of other ways one could incorporate it into the game. You could have an Allied NPC mention it, or a book you can find go over it...wall graffiti. Perhaps even have the player figure it out during the fight.

Boss fights are meant to be the hardest part of a game and yet it seems like more and more of them are being dumbed down. Take the boss i posted in this thread(not the kitten sillies). Yes, even though his attacks are rather predicable and can be rather easy to dodge, he has powerful attacks that can utterly destroy you, but that pales in comparison to the fact that he may as well have a bulls-eye on his throat and be holding a sign that says "Shoot me here"

[Zevox]

So, your complaint is with what The Spoony One once called "glowing red 'f*** me' buttons." Yeah, I can agree with that. If you're going to base a boss fight on weak points, there needs to be a way to logically notice what they are, but having them just arbitrarily glow to tell you what they are is a really lazy, boring way to do that.

Zevox

[Om]

My problem with boss fights is that they typically have nothing in common with the rest of the game. You spent the previous 10+ hours shooting men in the face? Well now expect the climax of this game to be shooting mirrors that redirect lasers that momentarily stuns the boss so that you can shoot him in the face. Or a weak spot, it doesn't really matter to me

Back in the day a boss fight was just a bigger, tougher version of a normal encounter. When you went up against Hitler in Wolfenstein 3D it was a straight up gunfight. Similarly, BG1 gave you an exceptionally difficult party v party encounter (of the sort that you'd already faced at least half a dozen of) while its sequel came up a number of convoluted ways to have you fight the same boss a number of times. Enough gimmicks, just give us a straight up challenge!

[TheSummoner]

So... Pretty much you just don't like obvious weak points?

What about enemies that only have one eye? Typically the eye is the only vulnerable area (or atleast takes more damage than anywhere else), but it's rarer that developers will make it glow bright red. Does that annoy you?

What about enemies whose heads are the only vulnerable area. The kind of giant enemy who whose entire body is immune to damage other than the head? Once again, usually doesn't glow bright read, but it isn't exactly hidden.

I think the problem is a combination of most gamers being fairly genre savy (ok, my attacks aren't hurting him/are barely doing anything. Where's the weak point?) and developers assuming players are idiots... (GLOWING RED WEAK POINT!!!)

[Domochevsky]

...
What about enemies that only have one eye? Typically the eye is the only vulnerable area (or atleast takes more damage than anywhere else), but it's rarer that developers will make it glow bright red. Does that annoy you?
...

Those are even worse. :smallsigh:
Have you ever killed a single cyclops in a video game without stabbing it in the eye? It's nearly as bad as encountering a bull-type enemy and immediately knowing that you need to wait for it to charge you, get out of the way at the last moment and then hit it in the ass while it tries to unlodge its horns from the wall behind you.

But even better are glowing weakspots in places that don't even make sense. Like giant boils on the boss' shoulders or ellbows or underbelly, pulsating in a red SHOOT HERE light. :smallannoyed:

[Neon Knight]

What game is that from? I don't recognize it.

Yeah, in some ways, the boss fight seems to be a lost art in video game design. I cannot remember the last time I had a really good boss fight in a video game.

[Tengu_temp]

Okami
Metal Gear Solid + sequels
Castlevania series
Cave Story
Iji
La-Mulana

And that's just off the top of my head, and not counting RPGs. None of those are exactly recent titles, but I don't recall any action games released during the last year or so that'd be good enough to become classics.

[Sith_Happens]

Okami
Metal Gear Solid + sequels
Castlevania series
Cave Story
Iji
La-Mulana

And that's just off the top of my head, and not counting RPGs. None of those are exactly recent titles, but I don't recall any action games released during the last year or so that'd be good enough to become classics.

Zelda games also always have good boss fights that make you think a bit, although Midna's "hints" in Twilight Princess tended to be a tad too obvious.

[Tengu_temp]

Oh yeah, and how could I forget Shadow of the Colossus, the game where innovative boss battles are pretty much the whole point.

[Airk]

Oh yeah, and how could I forget Shadow of the Colossus, the game where innovative boss battles are pretty much the whole point.

Except that every single one of them was just a "stab in the glowing weak spot" fest. Well, there were maybe 2 or 3 exceptions, but mostly I found SotC freakin' monotonous once the novelty wore off.

[Jahkaivah]

Those are even worse. :smallsigh:
Have you ever killed a single cyclops in a video game without stabbing it in the eye?

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c226/saxcsa/Serious-Sam-2001.jpg


Yeah it's all fun an games untill someone loses an eye.




It's nearly as bad as encountering a bull-type enemy and immediately knowing that you need to wait for it to charge you, get out of the way at the last moment and then hit it in the ass while it tries to unlodge its horns from the wall behind you.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c226/saxcsa/gfs_85429_2_18_mid.jpg


Now thats a lot of bull...




..............



http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c226/saxcsa/04dl.jpg

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[Tengu_temp]

Except that every single one of them was just a "stab in the glowing weak spot" fest. Well, there were maybe 2 or 3 exceptions, but mostly I found SotC freakin' monotonous once the novelty wore off.

Yeah, except no. The weak spots aren't immediately obvious, you have to find them first, and then figure out how to actually reach them, which often requires unusual strategies and can be very difficult even after you know what to do. Saying that you defeat Colossi by stabbing their weak points is like saying that you defeat bosses in MGS by shooting at them a lot - technically true, but doesn't convey the full picture.

[KillianHawkeye]

Considering the vast number of game bosses who don't even have weak points, or who do but they don't magically glow, I'd say your problem isn't with boss fights in general. Maybe you're playing the wrong games? :smallconfused:

[GolemsVoice]

I'm fine with boss weak spots (though I rarely play games that feature them), my only complaint would be when they are illogical.

If I face a type of enemy who readys a special attack, and I attack him before/after he charges it, because charging it leaves the boss vulnerable, I'm fine with that.

But why on earth should a boss have no plating above his three beating hearts, and the only cover for them opens right after you've stunned him?

[Arbitrarity]

I'm not sure if the alternative is better: Slugfests.

Take Orsino, at the end of DA2. He has 1 million health. You kill him. Then he jumps around the room, and every time you take off 1/5 of his fully restored health, he jumps out of the room and summons a bunch of enemies for you to fight. Then he comes back. Repeat 5 times. Once you kill that, he then goes back to his original body with another million health and slowly wades after you.

This is a game where attacks dealing 800 damage are surprisingly high. I have never seen more than 10000 damage in a single attack, and that's blowing a 60 second cooldown (from the ultimate skill of Assassin, which is pretty much designed to oneshot enemies) on a target already debuffed to take more damage. (though according to some theorycrafting, if you debuff enemy defenses sufficiently (with companions), and build more critical damage, and pick an elemental vulnerability, you can get 200000) Burning through 3 million health takes around 10 minutes.

And what does he do? Wades around slowly and knocks away people who try to engage him in melee. It's possibly the most boring boss I have ever encountered.

[Airk]

Yeah, except no. The weak spots aren't immediately obvious, you have to find them first, and then figure out how to actually reach them, which often requires unusual strategies and can be very difficult even after you know what to do. Saying that you defeat Colossi by stabbing their weak points is like saying that you defeat bosses in MGS by shooting at them a lot - technically true, but doesn't convey the full picture.

Oh, so now the problem is OBVIOUS weakspots? Sorry, I thought we were railing against an old and tired game design like having big glowing SPLOTCHES ON THE BOSS telling you where you need to hit it.

About the only clever change SotC made to that mechanic was the fact that sometimes weak points would go away after hit you them a couple of times and therefore require you to find a new one. Battles were ABSURDLY scripted though. There was always one and ONLY one correct way to kill each boss.

[warty goblin]

I'm not sure if the alternative is better: Slugfests.

Take Orsino, at the end of DA2. He has 1 million health. You kill him. Then he jumps around the room, and every time you take off 1/5 of his fully restored health, he jumps out of the room and summons a bunch of enemies for you to fight. Then he comes back. Repeat 5 times. Once you kill that, he then goes back to his original body with another million health and slowly wades after you.


There is an alternative you know: not have boss fights at all. Which I find to usually be the better course of action. My experience is that most encounters I find really memorable are just against large numbers of standard enemies in interesting or otherwise challenging topography.

I suspect the reason for this is pretty simple: a boss is a single enemy, what it can do is limited compared to multiple foes. You can make a boss more powerful - give it more HP, make it hit harder and move faster - but it's hard to make one as complex as fighting a group of reasonably tough and diverse foes. Boss fights thus naturally, though not inevitably, tend towards the gimmicky or the grindy.

The one huge advantage that a boss fight has going for it is narrative inertia. It's the big bad, the dude you've been trying to defeat all game, it's easy to get excited about that in a way that another fight against normal enemies can't manage.

[Forbiddenwar]

What games are those photos from Jahkaivah?

Boss Fights, in general, are difficult to design. Too Weak, anticlimatic, too strong, rage inducing. Too scripted=railroaded. Not scripted enough="what do you want from me?"

As for action games without glowing red weak spots for no reason other than the development team ran out of time/money:

God Of War, maybe?
LoK?
BioShock

I guess I haven't played very many recent action titles, with or without weak spot bosses.

[Tengu_temp]

Oh, so now the problem is OBVIOUS weakspots? Sorry, I thought we were railing against an old and tired game design like having big glowing SPLOTCHES ON THE BOSS telling you where you need to hit it.

About the only clever change SotC made to that mechanic was the fact that sometimes weak points would go away after hit you them a couple of times and therefore require you to find a new one. Battles were ABSURDLY scripted though. There was always one and ONLY one correct way to kill each boss.

...Have we played the same game? SotC doesn't have big, obvious glowing splotches on the boss until you scan them with your sword - and even after you do that some of them tend to be hidden on some Colossi. And the real tricky part is actually getting to them, because it is a simple matter of "jump the Colossus, climb it" only on the first few bosses.

I agree it was scripted as hell, though. But hey, I'd rather have a great gaming experience with almost no repeat value than a game you can play forever but stays mediocre every time.


What games are those photos from Jahkaivah?

Serious Sam.

[warty goblin]

I agree it was scripted as hell, though. But hey, I'd rather have a great gaming experience with almost no repeat value than a game you can play forever but stays mediocre every time.

I've actually stopped thinking of replayability in terms of stuff I didn't do last time, and instead consider whether or not the game is something I want to experience again. Since I find more scripted titles tend to have more memorable bits - or at least as many memorable bits with less chaff in between - I replay them a lot more.

[Airk]

...Have we played the same game? SotC doesn't have big, obvious glowing splotches on the boss until you scan them with your sword

Yeah, because holding the right trigger for a second or two is a serious obstacle? I mean, really. =/


and even after you do that some of them tend to be hidden on some Colossi. And the real tricky part is actually getting to them, because it is a simple matter of "jump the Colossus, climb it" only on the first few bosses.

Yeah, getting to them is tricky, because without that, there would be absolutely no game as opposed to just mostly no game. =/



I agree it was scripted as hell, though. But hey, I'd rather have a great gaming experience with almost no repeat value than a game you can play forever but stays mediocre every time.

I'd agree if it'd felt like a great gaming experience rather than a mix of the worst aspects of boss fights and the worst aspects of 3d parkour games.

[Karoht]

I like bosses with no obvious weak points.
I thoroughly enjoy a boss that is a complete slug fest. No weaknesses to go after, just you and him beating the tar out of one another, in whatever context that might be. This is why I liked Jecht in FF-X more than I liked Yunalesca.

Another example would be Devil May Cry 3. Virgil. In your last fight with him, he does not telegraph very much, if at all. You had to really outplay him. You had to outmanouver, overpower, and outthink him to win. Not the best boss fight of all time, but excellent.

I always loved the Doppleganger fight in Castlevania Symphony of the Night. You had to think and react, and outmanouver. No weaknesses, no easy to spot 'beat the hell out of me now' times.

If you want a shooter? Red Faction 1.
Last boss flies and uses the terrain against you. She can shoot a 1 hit kill weapon, and it can pass through walls as well as home in on you (but you could still dodge it, just that it was pretty hard to dodge). She also uses a very accurate, very fast firing sniper rifle which will kill you in 2 or 3 hits, max. No reloads, no weapon that was it's kryptonite. No resupply right before the boss either. You had whatever health and armor you got there with, whatever ammo you'd managed to save from the gauntlets prior. Oh, and when you break her forcefield, she hits the ground, runs amazingly fast, again uses the terrain (but can no longer shoot through it) and if she manages to get into melee range with you, you just die. To a kick to the face. A kick so hard it breaks all your armor and 1-shots all your health.
I rather liked that boss fight.


To me, that is a boss fight. A boss you fight at your full capabilities, and it has every capability to just crush you if you do not outmanouver, outthink, and outplay the boss, every step of the way.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

I always loved the Doppleganger fight in Castlevania Symphony of the Night. You had to think and react, and outmanouver. No weaknesses, no easy to spot 'beat the hell out of me now' times.

You obviously never used a poison elemental sword against him. Makes the fight pretty trivial.

[Tengu_temp]

Yeah, because holding the right trigger for a second or two is a serious obstacle? I mean, really. =/

It took me a while to realize that the lizard's weak spot is on its belly, and this is why I can't see it even when the ray of light points straight at it. And that's just one example.


Yeah, getting to them is tricky, because without that, there would be absolutely no game as opposed to just mostly no game. =/

Complaining that there's no game in SotC without figuring out the tricks to the bosses is like complaining that there's no game in an FPS without shooting. Also, "mostly no game"? That makes it sound as if SotC plays itself most of the time. Show me the genius who can finish this game at a first try with no difficulties at any point, without reading a walkthrough, I dare you.


I'd agree if it'd felt like a great gaming experience rather than a mix of the worst aspects of boss fights and the worst aspects of 3d parkour games.

That's like, your opinion, man. For me it was a game with a great atmosphere and fights that could get frustrating at times, but still felt satisfying in the end and made me want to check out what the next Colossus will turn out to be.

[Karoht]

You obviously never used a poison elemental sword against him. Makes the fight pretty trivial.I'd ask how you got one that early in the game, but that's sort of irrelivant.

[Sipex]

I have to agree somewhat, boss fights where the object is 'beat up the weak point' can be pretty meh but if it's 'expose the weak point then beat on it' I'm a little less meh and more intrigued. If the boss changes strategies throughout the battle this makes it even more enjoyable because just when you've got it down it changes and you're figuring out a whole strategy.

Very few games have boss battles where it feels challenging no matter what. Eventually you figure out the patterns, the attack range, the damage or the movements of every boss. Figuring them out however is part of the fun.

edit: Take the new ninja gaiden games for example. Most of the bosses there have no glowy weakpoint of death but they all have attack patterns you can pick up on after a while. Nothing strict but when a boss moves in a certain way you instinctively learn "That means he's going to do a huge low sweep, I need to jump!"

[Karoht]

God of War 1: Final Boss-Ares
No weakpoint. Somewhat of a pattern, his telegraphs are VERY short, and he moves quick. Slim margin of error. Great boss.

God of War 2: Second to last boss-The Fates
No weakpoint. No pattern. Telegraphs are not easy to read but slower than Ares. Appropriate margin for error. Great boss.

God of War 3: Final Boss-Zeus/Gaia
Gaia has a weakpoint that you hit to regain health. Zeus just beats on you, with copies of himself at the same time. Extremely boring and tedious fight.


Meanwhile, here's some 'weakpoint' bosses done kind of right IMO.
World of Warcraft:
Lord Rhyolith-Walk him across volcanoes to remove his armor and deal progressively more damage. Once armor is gone, hard burn to kill him before he kills you. New boss as of 3 weeks ago.
Bug Boss in AQ in the gully-Boss follows a random person, will kill that person in one hit if boss reaches. There are eggs on the ground. You have the person lead the boss around for a while, as the rest of the group damages the eggs down. Then the person leads the boss on top of an egg JUST as the group finishes killing it. The egg explodes, damaging the carapace of the boss. When the carapace is damaged enough it's hard burn on the boss (while still leading him around) before he eats everyone. Old boss from 7 years ago.

In both of these examples, the weakpoint and how to expose it are not obvious, and exposing it is the majority of the mechanic, rather than a quick 'break one thing quickly, okay weakpoint exposed' as we've seen in games like GoW2/3.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You obviously never used a poison elemental sword against him. Makes the fight pretty trivial.

On the other one in the upside-down castle, simply wearing your Topaz Circlet trivializes him, because he literally heals you with every swing

For the first one, the fist weapon you pick up just three screens below him gives you such significant damage output over him that he just can't compete.

[GolemsVoice]

I really must admit, it DOES feel good to empty a magazine or two into the boss' weak spot, especially if you had to fight hard to "activate" it.

[super dark33]

The guardien of hell from Doom 3 took me a while to understand that you need to kill the little floaty and surprisingly cute things that float throughout the 'arena', so he could summon them and you could shoot that portal to kill him.

i dont think this counts as weak spot.

Te last boss in doom 3 was also pretty anticlimatic.
you just needed to run away from him,dodge his rockets, kill 5 mooks that spawn from the middle, activate the soul cube, repeat 4 times, and there hes dead.

[thegurullamen]

I really must admit, it DOES feel good to empty a magazine or two into the boss' weak spot, especially if you had to fight hard to "activate" it.

This is the only time I find that acceptable. (That or in catharsis-based games where enjoying the ability to win curbstomp battles is the point of the game.) If there is a glowing red ****-me light, it had better be hidden behind some phlebotinum armor that I have to tear off with my own god-like hands.

Or if there's a good in-story reason for it, like in Mass Effect 2's human-Reaper embryo.

[Forbiddenwar]

Or if there's a good in-story reason for it (weak spots).

Those aren't weak spots, they're character traits.
/Otaku from MGS1

[Mewtarthio]

The one huge advantage that a boss fight has going for it is narrative inertia. It's the big bad, the dude you've been trying to defeat all game, it's easy to get excited about that in a way that another fight against normal enemies can't manage.

It's also got the advantage of forcing the player to adapt to an entirely novel situation. In fact, completely telegraphing an upcoming boss fight is a good way to build tension, as the player knows they're about to fight something tough, but have no idea what it is.

[Leecros]

What game is that from? I don't recognize it.


It's from F.E.A.R 3 ...er F3AR or however they changed the name of it to add the number into it..


Considering the vast number of game bosses who don't even have weak points, or who do but they don't magically glow, I'd say your problem isn't with boss fights in general. Maybe you're playing the wrong games? :smallconfused:

I have absolutely no problem with Boss fights in general. I like boss fights(when they're good). I also know that there are plenty of games out there without obvious weak points and/or weak points at all. I even know there's games out there without boss's.

The problem i have is when the game is a fun game and/or has a good story and you can breeze through the boss fight. Using F.E.A.R. as an example since that's the example i used in my first post. F.E.A.R. 1's boss was Alma, you were fleeing through an exploding facility and Alma would appear in the room and head towards you. Really bad stuff happened when she touched you and if you didn't see her in time then you wouldn't be able to shoot her till she disappeared before she did. F.E.A.R. 2's boss was one of your fellow operatives that was trapped in Alma's mind(sorta). That was a slugfest, he was shooting at you and you were shooting at him. He moved faster than you(outside of slow-mo which you had a limited amount of) and was a pain to hit. You had to fight him...3 or 4 times before you actually killed him. Now i'm not saying those are the best boss fights ever, far far from it, but they were still better than F.E.A.R 3's boss(which is what i was irritated at in the Original Post). The entire game was harder than fighting that boss. Fighting the lesser versions of him throughout the game was harder than fighting him at the end. As i mentioned he appears several times throughout the game and attacks the player(similarly to the way Alma did at the end of F.E.A.R. 1. He would appear in the room and head for you and you'd have to kill him before he hit you. Unfortunately he wasn't anymore than a bunch of smoke/mist/whatever until he got right in front of you in which you had only a second to drive him off before he harmed you. Plus throughout the entire fight you don't heal.

[Psyren]

But why on earth should a boss have no plating above his three beating hearts, and the only cover for them opens right after you've stunned him?

In RE5 they try to handwave it; when you play on single player, your partner invariably yells something like "Anything that mutated that quickly must have a weak spot!"

Well gee Sheva, I didn't know you had an advanced degree in biogenetics and T-Virus theory. Been measuring mutation rates and correlating side-effects, have you? Just to find out I should shoot the glowy thing. Great job!

[Jahkaivah]

One thing that bugs me is when boss fights involve having the boss do something that gives you an opening to attack it, and you can get it to repeat the same action over and over.

One thing I liked about Portal is that both 1 and 2 addressed this issue by having the bosses comment that they cannot stop the attack you keep throwing back at them, but honestly it would be nice to instead fight a boss that is actively learning from it's mistakes