How does the forum feel about the Ninja class?

[Rossebay]

I honestly can't see an application.
I feel like everything it does, someone else can do better. :\ It has cool abilities and all, but nothing major.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm still relatively new) but it seems that it's just another rogue variant that concentrates on cliches.

[gallagher]

I honestly can't see an application.
I feel like everything it does, someone else can do better. :\ It has cool abilities and all, but nothing major.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm still relatively new) but it seems that it's just another rogue variant that concentrates on cliches.
it is obviously subpar to the rogue, but it is fun and niche and some of its tricks are cool.

you play it for style, not for power

[dextercorvia]

Just play a Rogue, Beguiler, Cleric, or Swordsage with the right fluff.

[Everest]

Its invisibility has consistently shown to be pretty handy at the lower levels (one of my players continually uses ninja characters. And samurai. Utter Japanophile). But that's about it, as far as I can tell. Once enemies come in who can deal with invisible enemies, it really does become subpar.

[hobbitkniver]

Are you familiar with the Tier System? It's basically a way of grading classes and it views ninjas as one of the worst classes available.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ninja was bottom of tier 4 last I remember; but that isn't one of the worst, just subpar.

[Rossebay]

Alright, so at least I wasn't getting the wrong feeling out of it...
I might try it later on, it's good to get perspective, but at least I had the right first impression. It just never seemed all that worth it, to be honest. Nice, but not amazing.

[Zaq]

Yeah, the Ninja is really weak. They make decent NPCs, but they're pretty terrible as PCs.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC some of the variants in Dragon were actually nice; but I can't recall the issue.

[Fox Box Socks]

The one real thing it has going for it is that it's called "Ninja".

Beyond that, there's not much that a Swordsage/Rogue/Factotum can't do better.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you want a class with ninja on it's name, the Ninja Spy from Oriental Adventures is pretty nifty in my opinion.

[Pentachoron]

If you want a class with ninja on it's name, the Ninja Spy from Oriental Adventures is pretty nifty in my opinion.

Agreed, and Shadow Sun Ninja of course.

Honestly, I've always felt like Ninja should be a prestige class anyway (hence my enjoyment of Ninja Spy and SS Ninja) and not a full base class. I feel the same about Samurai and a couple other base classes.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Agreed, and Shadow Sun Ninja of course.

Honestly, I've always felt like Ninja should be a prestige class anyway (hence my enjoyment of Ninja Spy and SS Ninja) and not a full base class. I feel the same about Samurai and a couple other base classes.

What are you talking about there is a perfectly usable, tier 3 ninja base class, it is just named Swordsage :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Thread needs more Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)

[gorfnab]

The Pathfinder Ninja (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/playtests/paizo---ultimate-combat/ninja) is not too shabby.

[Zonugal]

The simple build of Rogue 3/Monk 2/Rogue 15 with Ascetic Rogue is always a good sub in for a "ninja."

[Dusk Eclipse]

Thread needs more Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)

Psyren, thank you SO much for remind me of that class, I am going to play an Oriental Adventures games, and I was at a loss of what to play, now I think a Psychic rogue (perhaps with a bit Tashalastora) might be just what I needed:smallamused:

[Scarlet-Devil]

Played one once; it was fun. The two other players were also ninjas, so we were really able to do ninja-y things, without having to worry about noisy jocks and nerds in pointy hats.

[Madwand99]

Ninja is truly excellent when gestalted with Druid. It's not bad as a one-level dip if you want a trapfinding druid, either. That's about the only use I know for it.

[Lans]

Give it 10 ninja bonus feats, and the ACFs from dragon mag and it might be alright.

Also 1 ki point/lvl+wisdom

[Psyren]

Which Dragon mag has ninja goodies? *thumbs through collection*


Played one once; it was fun. The two other players were also ninjas, so we were really able to do ninja-y things, without having to worry about noisy jocks and nerds in pointy hats.

See, I would have played a Savant or Factotum, and been the nerd that could both keep up with you all and beat you at your own game. I'd have worn glasses and everything :smallamused:


Psyren, thank you SO much for remind me of that class, I am going to play an Oriental Adventures games, and I was at a loss of what to play, now I think a Psychic rogue (perhaps with a bit Tashalastora) might be just what I needed:smallamused:

You're welcome, and don't forget Kung Fu Genius. If that isn't allowed, you can use Ascetic Psion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070212a&page=5) to add your Int to AC instead, but the prereqs are pretty bad and the psion/monk stacking benefits won't apply to you.

[Divide by Zero]

Ninja is truly excellent when gestalted with Druid.

I think you can replace "Ninja" with pretty much any low-tier class and this statement will still be true.

[Psyren]

I think you can replace "Ninja" with pretty much any low-tier class and this statement will still be true.

Sort of. Ideal gestalt combinations are active//passive. Ninja is a very passive class (You don't need to use actions to "turn on" your AC bonus, poison use, sudden strike, acrobatics etc) and the active abilities it does get are swift, leaving your standard to cast and your move to position.

Compare to Healer - another low tier class that uses Wisdom. You get more spells, but no extra actions to cast them all with;also, their spells aren't very good (until you get Gate anyway), so most of the time you'll just be casting druid spells. Even the unicorn mount is something Druids can replicate on their own.

[TroubleBrewing]

Try Lurk, too. It's one of the weaker psionic classes, but it's only limited by it's low PP pool. With clever applications of Lurk Augmentations, you'll feel plenty ninja-ish.

So, basically, if you want to play a ninja, use anything but Ninja.

Or Monk. Monks are terribad.

[Person_Man]

Wait, is this thread an excuse to pimp homebrew options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10326268)?

Anywho, you should note that WotC designers generally over value BAB, bonuses to damage, and Skill Points. The Ninja has two of these, and thus has mostly garbage for class abilities.

[Crow]

Ninja played from level 1 to low epic. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178400)

[FMArthur]

The ninja does happen to be one of the go-to classes for ranged Sneak Attack within 30ft - a rare thing, but dual-hand crossbow combatants use it. Sudden Strike is identical to Sneak Attack for characters who can't flank due to using ranged weaponry, and the ability to turn invisible for whole rounds and multiple consecutive rounds is something a swordsage can't duplicate, nor does it have the Sneak Attack progression.

Others are undoubtedly better classes by not-insignificant amounts, but ninjas do have a handful of genuine strengths over them.

[Hazzardevil]

The ninja does happen to be one of the go-to classes for ranged Sneak Attack within 30ft - a rare thing, but dual-hand crossbow combatants use it. Sudden Strike is identical to Sneak Attack for characters who can't flank due to using ranged weaponry, and the ability to turn invisible for whole rounds and multiple consecutive rounds is something a swordsage can't duplicate, nor does it have the Sneak Attack progression.

Others are undoubtedly better classes by not-insignificant amounts, but ninjas do have a handful of genuine strengths over them.

I suddenly feel Inclined to play a Swordsage/Crusader/Shadow Sun Ninja//Ninja

I would use Swordsage to qualify for Shadowsun Ninja and put Shadow Hand Maneuvers on Crusader, focus on buffs and things that would make Sudden Strike easier and other useful buffs and Enjoy Doing the Dual Weilding Hand Crossbows.
I reckon that would prove that Ninja doesn't suck.

[Sir Halfred]

Do you guys remember the Ninja (Not Ninja Spy) from Rokugan Campaign Setting? It's 3.0 but really powerfull, and also I don't like much all those mystical powers from de CA Ninja.

[TroubleBrewing]

I reckon that would prove that Ninja doesn't suck.

You reckon that mixing 2 ToB base classes and 1 ToB PrC would prove that the Ninja doesn't suck? :smallconfused:

I think that would more likely prove that ToB material makes just about anything playable.

[FMArthur]

I suddenly feel Inclined to play a Swordsage/Crusader/Shadow Sun Ninja//Ninja

I would use Swordsage to qualify for Shadowsun Ninja and put Shadow Hand Maneuvers on Crusader, focus on buffs and things that would make Sudden Strike easier and other useful buffs and Enjoy Doing the Dual Weilding Hand Crossbows.
I reckon that would prove that Ninja doesn't suck.

Dual crossbow fighting is probably one of the most feat intensive fighting styles in the game, so you almost need Fighter levels to have it come online before it becomes useless.

[Flickerdart]

Do you guys remember the Ninja (Not Ninja Spy) from Rokugan Campaign Setting? It's 3.0 but really powerfull, and also I don't like much all those mystical powers from de CA Ninja.
Rokugan Campaign Setting is a third party book.

[Hazzardevil]

Dual crossbow fighting is probably one of the most feat intensive fighting styles in the game, so you almost need Fighter levels to have it come online before it becomes useless.

I'll fit in 2 fighter levels as well then.
And I just realised something.
That build would have 3 different sources of Wisdom to AC. Sadly they wouldn't stack.

[JaronK]

Also, Rokugan Ninja is insanely weak. No skillmonkey abilities... just a full BAB class with sneak attack. Int to initiative and some dodge bonuses to AC and really not much else worth mentioning.

Really, Swordsage is the first actually decent Ninja class.

JaronK

[Grendus]

Really, Swordsage is the first actually decent Ninja class.

JaronK

Depending on your definition, rogue is a fairly decent ninja as well. It's a little too mundane unless you use some UMD-fu, but it has the skillmonkey aspect of ninja covered, the stealthmonkey aspect covered, and Sneak Attack fits well with the "assassin from the shadows" motif. But it's a refluffing, the rogue seems to be based more on the western assassin rather than eastern mythology.