Fighter Optimization?

[hobbitkniver]

My friend who is very new to DnD and doesn't understand a lot of things rolled up a fighter. I don't know all that much about fighters, but he was dead set on this class for some reason. He seems to have made a good character as far as fighters go, but I have to ask the internet: is there any game breaking thing like Divine Metamagic that is useful for a fighter?

Please Don't:

Tell me Fighters suck and you should never play them
Write a reply nitpicking some detail unrelated to the question

I'm asking the forums because I've been unable to find any sort of guide on the internet unlike pretty much every other class I've needed one for. Thanks in advance.

[Big Fau]

Fighter levels serve best as a Dip for a maximum of 6 levels (possibly 10 if you are focusing on Intimidate). For those 6 levels, the DMM equivalent for a Fighter is Dungeoncrasher (Dungeonscape). Afterwards he should multilcass out to either Warblade, Knight, or Barbarian.

[Rei_Jin]

Game breaking? No... not really, but that depends on the level of Opt-fu your group uses.

The best options as far as most people consider are the Zhentarim Fighter alternate class features, or the Dungeoncrasher alternate class features.

Dungeoncrasher is in Dungeonscape.

Zhentarim Fighter can be found HERE (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/champions_of_valor.zip)

There's also a Fighters Handbook, which can be found HERE (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870606/The_Fighters_Handbook_--_2007). Dunno how good it is though.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If only the first two levels are fighter, than the rest warblade, it'll be fine.

Otherwise, DUNGEONCRASHA!!!

Or Zhentarim, don't have whatever it's in and I can't download things from the internet onto my iPad, so never seen it. Heard it's good though.

[Fox Box Socks]

Uberchargers can put out some really crazy burst damage if that's what you're into. Power Attack + Shock Trooper + Pounce = Dead monster, usually.

[Seerow]

There are solid fighter builds out there, but to answer your main question: No there is nothing remotely close to divine metamagic for a fighter. Divine Metamagic is a single feat that basically destroys any limitations on cleric buffs. Nothing the Fighter will ever get can compete to easily persisted/quickened buffs.


If you want a solid Fighter, pick up the Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim (sp?) ACFs, and try to get a race with a large size for knockback (which synergizes crazy well with Dungeoncrasher). Dungeoncrasher gives some extra out of combat utility and damage when there's walls around to bash your enemies into, and Zhentarim gives a decent utility as well and best of all is basically free. Then pick up a reach weapon (preferably a spiked chain, for inclusive reach) and go to town.

Major feats to look into include: Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper (gives you the power to basically one shot most on CR creatures on a charge), Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit (get a free AoO every time an opponent attacks you from each feat), and Stand Still or Improved Trip (both serve as battlefield control. Standstill is better at high levels where things tend to not be vulnerable to trip, but improved trip is significantly better at low levels thanks to the bonus attack) if going with improved trip, also consider the feat Knock-Down, a free trip anytime you deal over 10 damage is awesome. Combat Brute is also pretty nice with knockback (basically free damage) and shock trooper, if you can find room for it.


Also, since you're the DM, I would recommend if nothing else giving your player a couple extra skill points per level and a few extra class skills. Seriously, Fighters need it. (I similarly recommend this for just about any non-full-caster that has only 2+int skills)

[Eldariel]

Also, since you're the DM, I would recommend if nothing else giving your player a couple extra skill points per level and a few extra class skills. Seriously, Fighters need it. (I similarly recommend this for just about any non-full-caster that has only 2+int skills)

This is the reason I always go Thug if I can afford it (generally on higher levels, you can easily reach Dex-caps of light armors making Heavy Armor Proficiency unnecessary), though even then you do need more skillpoints to do anything interesting. It's a royal pity WoTC spoiled all the fun in their skill system by being so stingy with the points, making basically everyone a 2-trick pony.

[Keld Denar]

Look for ways to utilize your vast amount of feats. Look for ways to induce status effects. Three Mountains Style (CWarrior) is decent for this, as is the Zhent Fighter ACF. Look at ways to expand what triggers AoOs (like Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike), and then increase your AoOs/round.

There are a lot of things you CAN do. The trick is to make sure you are doing something useful, rather than just plain moar damage.

EDIT: How much fighter are we talking? Can you multiclass? PrCs? Cause fighter is actually really good in most melee builds for a 2-6 level investment when you REALLY need feats to pull off a concept.

[herrhauptmann]

Here's a fighter build that goes level 1-20. It's Jack B Quick. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick
Uses the already mentioned karmic strike/robilar gambit to deal 6 attacks for every time he gets attacked.


Sounds good yeah? Now, since you're the DM, it's up to you to decide if you want to alter the weapons in the DMG or not. Perhaps take the shatterspike, and make it greatsword. Or the Life-drinker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#lifeDrinker) as a longsword or hand ax.
He'll need Death Ward (PHB) or Soulfire (BoED armor enchantment) to keep himself alive in the process. And if the party is too low a level when you let him start using the lifedrinker, you could end up with a TPK. As every person he kills via negative levels comes back as a level draining wight.
Basically, they all have to make themselves immune to level drain, or this becomes a double-edged sword.


edit:

Look for ways to utilize your vast amount of feats. Look for ways to induce status effects. Three Mountains Style (CWarrior) is decent for this, as is the Zhent Fighter ACF. Look at ways to expand what triggers AoOs (like Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike), and then increase your AoOs/round.

Sudden Stunning as a weapon enhancement from DMG2 is also useful. Although it encourages keeping a respectable charisma, rather than having it the dump stat.

If you allow Tome of Battle:
A level of warblade later on will grant him enough of an Initiator level that he can get Defensive Rebuke (devoted spirit), so that anyone he attacks HAS to attack him, or suffer an AOO.
A stance grants pretty much total lockdown of movement within his reach, so you'd want him to have some sort of reach weapon. (Spike chain, spinning sword, polearm+spiked gauntlet). Now they take an AOO for ignoring him, and take an AOO for moving to reach him. But doing that makes it harder to use the Jack B Quick build above.

I believe that an Aptitude weapon (Tome of Battle), would allow him to use the weapon specific feats (like 3mountains, High sword low axe, lightning maces, etc) with other weapons. Perhaps dual aptitude kukris to set off the AOOs instead of a sword and axe.

[Amphetryon]

The Combat Reflexes + Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Stand Still "Lockdown" Fighter is fairly efficient as far as it goes. It's one reasonably legitimate reason to take Fighter levels, since it quickly gets feat intensive. It still needs to rely on help for 3-dimensional movement, generally.

[Yora]

If neither the dm nor the players know much about the classes, I don't see any problems ahead. Apparently fighters do really well in such groups.

[Frozen_Feet]

Dungeoncrashing Zhentarim Thug Fighter X / Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian

Most of these have at least been glossed over, but here's my explanation:

Dungeoncrasher loses you 2nd and 6th level feats, but in exchange you get to do serious damage by bashing things to wall. If you are Large (or have Powerful Build), you can combine this with Knockback to do what Thog did in OotS 796.

Thug loses you Heavy Armor and 1st level, but doubles your base skillpoints and adds several useful skills to your list.

Zhentarim Soldier requires you to be part of the Zhentarim, but in exchange, you get several neat abilities at levels that would otherwise be empty. Max out intimidation to reap benefits against all opponents not immune to Fear.

Spirit Lion Totem nets you Pounce, allowing you to full attack when charging. This is pretty fundamental to mst charging builds.

Feats have been gone over pretty well, use yours for whatever chain most tickles your fancy. DcZsT Fighter 10 / SL Barbarian 1 is the point where you've got most goodies out of the deal, and you have 3 Fighter bonus feats in addition to 4 from leveling to spread around.

Personally, I wouldn't take more fighter levels past 12. I'd start to look at other base classes to dip to, or PrCs. Cleric dip for Devotion feats, Psionic Warrior 2 for few extra feats and nifty powers. Monk dip could also be useful, but good luck trying to pass the Alignment shenanigans required to pull it off. (Maybe if you took a Monk dip before Barbarian?)

(To give an idea of what Monk can do: via the variant Styles in UA (also found in the SRD), you could pick Overwhelming Attack to get Power Attack and Imp. Bull Rush as bonus fets in two levels, in addition to Evasion, +2 to Intimidate and +3 to all saves. Needs 4 ranks in Perform (Dance), though.)

As far as skills go, your selection won't be too shabby - in addition to Intimidation, Handle Animal is one of the better choices. Bluff and Sleight of Hand from Thug are solid, as is Diplomacy from Zhentarim.

[noparlpf]

Unlike everyone else, I'm here to tell you that he's fine. Fighters aren't overpowered or game-breaking. They're generally considered a bit weak, hence everybody telling you that he shouldn't play a straight fighter. I've played a fighter once, and it worked out very well (and actually was a lot better than the party wizard, but that's another story...funnily enough, the party sorcerer was pretty much on par with me for melee combat). We did a two-part adventure with three encounters at 1st level and then four encounters at 18th level twenty years later. Of course, we were using flaws, so as a human fighter at 1st level I was allowed to have five feats. Tell him to keep going with a pure fighter and see how it works out for him.

[Big Fau]

A level of warblade later on will grant him enough of an Initiator level that he can get Defensive Rebuke (devoted spirit), so that anyone he attacks HAS to attack him, or suffer an AOO.

You mean Crusader. Warblades don't get Devoted Spirit, and spending two feats on one stance isn't exactly a good idea.

[OracleofSilence]

i agree. he is indeed fine. that said. three are still some things he should do. power attack, leap attack, stormguard warrior (via martial whatever the hell), pounce. then switch to spiked chain, stand still, knockback, combat reflexes...

he should have plenty of feats. then we have a great charger (and if you add dungeoncrasher) excellent shutdown battlefield control.

[herrhauptmann]

You mean Crusader. Warblades don't get Devoted Spirit, and spending two feats on one stance isn't exactly a good idea.

Whoops, yeah crusader. My bad.

But using Martial Study and Martial Stance is a good idea when you can't fit an actual martial class into your build. The OPs friend is intent on a fighter, so he'll have feats to burn. Only problem could be in deciding which route to take in determining his tactics, because so many will end up mutually exclusive.