How Much is Too Much? Help prepping a build for a player.

[Ursus the Grim]

Incoming tl;dr. So I warned you.

So here's the background. Two days ago, I had a sinking feeling my group was headed for a TPK in the Bastion of Unborn Souls. Converted from 3.0, the Half-Fiend Great Red Wyrm Ashardalon clocks in at CR 30. The party previously consisted of only a Rogue/Thief Acrobat, Cleric/Celestial Mystic, and Bard/Seeker of the Song. Occasionally a Death Slaad Assassin and Sorceror/Effigy Master would drop in, but it was looking like the Sorceror wasn't going to show up for the final showdown. All level 20.

The Sorceror and Cleric were the only two halfway optimized, and I was fine with that, but now they're fighting something tough and the party insisted I don't pull the punches. I warned them that technically, the DMG thinks I'm crazy for throwing this at them but they insisted that, knowing what it was and being able to go nova they would get through it. After all, I had referred to the Cathezar as 'ridiculously OP' and they beat her in three rounds.

Consider the next sentence carefully enough and I'll know people are hearing it from the collective groan heard around the world.

My fiancee has asked if she can help them out.
She, however, has little experience playing.3.5. She asked if I could make a character for her. I agreed.

Here is an excerpt of the conversation.

Melee fighter, spellcaster, ranged fighter to start with.
melee
Simple but a little weak or strong but complicated. Or a combination thereof.
what is simple?
Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, certain Druids, and a boatload of prestige classes.
what is ranger?
Like Aragorn from LotR. You'd use two weapons and wear lightish armor but have a sidekick animal and some spells (both fairly weak).
i want a friend but strong
Druid would be best for that, but I can make a ranger get there. Oh, or a Paladin with a special mount.
can i be evilish?
Maybe a blackguard.
ok

So it was decided that I'd make a Blackguard for her with a strong mount aspect. Thanks to my infection by optimization and my fear of a TPK, I thought making her a hit and run charger would be best. I tried to restrict cheese, took a strict interpretation of raw and a harsh use of logic. No Leap Attack, for instance, or FB dip.

Next thing I know, I have an abomination on my hands. Judging by my calculations, Damage Per Round over 100 rounds is about 207. Not too bad, I suppose, though its about twice as much as any of the others have done in one round. Confirmed criticals (60 percent of all crits, and she threatens on a 19 or 20) deal an average of 685 damage. Yes, I am using the multiplier stacking rules and no, I didn't account for increased chance to hit and more damage when she uses her Shadowbane Inquisitor Smite. Maximum possible damage on a crit is 865 points. The charging pouncing Fiendish Dire Lion stacks on another 50 or so damage, a number low because of a low attack bonus.

I have no doubt that Ashardalon could still wipe the party. I also have no doubt he will quickly snatch up the lion and devour it, thus nerfing the crazy mounted charge thing.

However, the issue still stands of the Blackguard's crazy glass cannon damage. I don't want my players calling me on "DM's Girlfriend" and while one might accept "I'm just decent at making characters" as an excuse, the others sure as hell won't. But I think they need that spike in damage to get through this, and every attack going after the lion or the Blackguard's sidekick is one less attack going after them.

I mean, it doesn't help that the Blackguard has more sneak attack dice than the rogue, better HP than the cleric, and better saves than any of them.

Exacerbating the problem is that this is going down Thursday, so little time to rebuild a similar character. The party is on unsteady ground because of conflict between two of the others, so I want to wrap it up before it remains unfinished forever.

Right now, I'm thinking of leaving the build as is, letting her deal her 200 or so damage, and then having Ashardalon eat the lion. Then eat the effigy bear. Then eat the zombie. Then eat the NPC Slaad. That would take some of the damage off the important things in play. I'd have to endure a brief outcry of "WTFBBQ NOT FAIR" before I 'fix it' by eating the lion. Though the BBEG has Awesome Blow, Snatch and Swallow, a 30 foot reach, and a +52 attack bonus, lack of Combat Reflexes means he only gets to interrupt one person's action, and I don't have a guarantee that the Blackguard will be the first one to get within that range. Nor do I want to change how I've been deciding AoO's all campaign.

Thoughts? Is it okay to leave a high-op character in a mid to low-op party as long as I reduce the overshadow of that character swiftly?

Edit: Note that Ashardalon has 1000 hp and I have planned out his tactics already.

[Rei_Jin]

First thing being first, I don't know your group, and what kind of things they are used to. In my mind though, sending a CR30 Dragon anything, especially one as infamous as Ashardalon at a low-mid Op group who are level 20, if you play the dragon as anything approaching their intelligence levels should allow, can result in nothing but a TPK.

If they as players have accepted this, then do yourself a favour. Have them roll up level 20 characters for "another adventuring party" that just happened to take on Ashardalon before the existing party could get there. Tell them to build whatever they like within the rules, and give them appropriate wealth for their level (760,000gp). Slaughter them appropriately. Hold nothing back.

Then when they are nothing but bitter, shattered husks of humanity, ask them if they really want to do that with their normal PCs.

[Ursus the Grim]

First thing being first, I don't know your group, and what kind of things they are used to. In my mind though, sending a CR30 Dragon anything, especially one as infamous as Ashardalon at a low-mid Op group who are level 20, if you play the dragon as anything approaching their intelligence levels should allow, can result in nothing but a TPK.

If they as players have accepted this, then do yourself a favour. Have them roll up level 20 characters for "another adventuring party" that just happened to take on Ashardalon before the existing party could get there. Tell them to build whatever they like within the rules, and give them appropriate wealth for their level (760,000gp). Slaughter them appropriately. Hold nothing back.

Then when they are nothing but bitter, shattered husks of humanity, ask them if they really want to do that with their normal PCs.

Current tactics are such. I'm assuming that Ashardalon did not hear of their advent. Technically no one was supposed to reach the Bastion. This was the 'best' I could come up with, as a lowly 11 INT human. Also, not exploiting Gate and other obviously busted spells (aside from Time Stop).


Cast Time Stop. Incendiary Cloud and Forcecage on the Slaad plus Mislead.
Greater Spell Immunity to Energy Drain, Polar Ray, Polymorph Any Object, and Temporal Stasis
Spell Turning
Prismatic Spray
Iron Body as Mislead Fades
Meteor Swarm
Destruction
Breath Tempestuous Breath Weapon for about 100 fire damage and knockback.
Full attack, pinning with claws and bite.
Swallow bitten creature and transfer the next to his mouth, making the rest of his attacks.
Repeat until wiped, using Breath occasionally with bitten critters.

[Rei_Jin]

If you want to be truly amusing, set up a series of traps on the ceiling of the dragons lair, and cast Reverse Gravity on the party. Sit there and laugh as they die without you ever touching them with your massive, massive claws.

Ashardalon should have contingency spells running as well... as many as possible. Heals, Time Stops, Spell Turnings, etc, etc. No CR 30 anything that can cast spells worth its salt will not have contingency spells running.

[Honest Tiefling]

Maybe swap out the friend for something she cannot ride, or is less OP? I would hurriedly nerf the BG if at all possible. It does not need to be perfect, just competent. Maybe cut out Shadowbane Inquisitor if at all possible. Grab a cookie cutter build from a handbook if need be.

Also, does your fiancee know that the group is facing utter death? Just making sure.

I haven't played the adventure you speak of, but is there a chance of loot before the boss, so other players can pick up some useful items that the BG shouldn't be taking or can't use?

If you are building her characters, for the next round of characters maybe offer build help to everyone if they wish it?

[Ursus the Grim]

If you want to be truly amusing, set up a series of traps on the ceiling of the dragons lair, and cast Reverse Gravity on the party. Sit there and laugh as they die without you ever touching them with your massive, massive claws.

Ashardalon should have contingency spells running as well... as many as possible. Heals, Time Stops, Spell Turnings, etc, etc. No CR 30 anything that can cast spells worth its salt will not have contingency spells running.

Traps on the ceiling of the lair won't work when the lair is the fountain of preincarnate souls on the Positive Energy Plane, unfortunately. Most of the old guards and wards are out.

Contingency is also unlikely. According to the plot, he used up all his wealth finding and breaking into the Bastion and has no treasure. He has also been there for hundreds, or I think thousands of years. Casting Contingency over that time with little to no wealth doesn't seem likely. I also imagine him being lazy, with a failing heart that requires he spend his time directly in the font. That being said, once the party comes in, all bets are off.


Maybe swap out the friend for something she cannot ride, or is less OP? I would hurriedly nerf the BG if at all possible. It does not need to be perfect, just competent. Maybe cut out Shadowbane Inquisitor if at all possible. Grab a cookie cutter build from a handbook if need be.

Also, does your fiancee know that the group is facing utter death? Just making sure.

I haven't played the adventure you speak of, but is there a chance of loot before the boss, so other players can pick up some useful items that the BG shouldn't be taking or can't use?

If you are building her characters, for the next round of characters maybe offer build help to everyone if they wish it?

The mount isn't the biggest issue, its the character's build itself. Shadowbane isn't really contributing that much to the damage, actually, its all in the feats.

Yeah, she does. I warned her about it, which is why "I'm gonna nerf your dood" wouldn't sound logical.

Not likely. They've gotten the loot already and actually have slightly better WBL than the BG.

I always offer build help to all my players, but I never demand that they play high op. I am also sure to explain the point and basics of optimization and tiers, to the point that I've run several experiments between Tier 1 and Tier 6 to show them that D&D is not balanced and needs thought to get by in.

[Honest Tiefling]

Leave in Shadowbane, and just swap out some feats for slightly less effective ones. Tell your Fiancee that sometimes, builds will overpower others and won't be fair to others. If she takes it badly, rethink letting her into your group.

While you seem quite reasonable in offering to help your players, I think that overall, it'll lead to bad feelings if one PC is way overpowered. You know your group better then I, so consider how they might take it.