When has Roy ever came up with a plan to outsmart an enemy? [Archive]

Kingscourt

2011-07-19, 11:40 PM

He outsmarted Sabine and fought her until her buffs wore off.

He saved the entire order from the bandits.

The other point about the ogre is perfectly valid, as well as him being able to round the order together and keep Belkar from killing innocent/good-aligned people.

Sure, maybe thinking he was better than Thog wasn't the 'smartest' thing, but there wasn't much he could've done against a raging half-orc who probably has more levels on him.

And I don't know, something tells me Roy's not out of this fight against the LG yet, I get the feeling he's going to come back and have his moment of awesome by the end of this battle.

paladinofshojo

2011-07-19, 11:40 PM

Also I would say his solution to the hydra (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html) certainly qualifies.

Alright so he was able to outsmart a nameless half-ogre and a hydra.......truly the mark of a tactical genius.

He outsmarted Sabine and fought her until her buffs wore off. Sarcastic snide aside....wasn't actually his idea (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html)

He saved the entire order from the bandits.
....If you use the term "save" loosely (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)

Kingscourt

2011-07-19, 11:58 PM

....If you use the term "save" loosely (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)

I don't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0164.html)

But seeing your responses it's clear you don't think Roy is a tactical genius, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree :smalltongue:

(Though to be fair, I don't think Roy is the most brilliant fighter/tactician in the world, I'm just pointing out the instances in which he has in fact, outsmarted an enemy)

Esprit15

2011-07-19, 11:58 PM

Some people are just going to be mad no matter what you say.

As to the gender belt, improv is just as good when your original plan falls apart.

GSFB

2011-07-20, 12:38 AM

the reality is - we don't really have much to go on other than a handful of battles, some of which ended badly. that's one of the problems inherent in a plot-driven story: no time to go into detail on every encounter Roy has had in his many levels. he has had many, many more encounters than have actually been shown in the strips - after all, he is somewhere in the high teens for a level now, that means realistically he has survived hundreds of encounters - odds are, many of them were against multiple opponents, and we know that he didn't always have the Order with him (they were contracted on after he had already become a mid-level pc). and here he is, mostly intact. one death - not too bad for a pc at this stage. his current battle... isn't over yet. we'll see how that goes. so what we can assume is this:

he has survived and advanced, in some cases despite actual hindrance from his own party. and he has done it as a fighter. not some munchkinized min/maxed death machine. a plain vanilla (er... chocolate) fighter. just a guy using a great sword. his success, despite his shortcomings, implies he plays SMART.

Cizak

2011-07-20, 12:39 AM

Alright so he was able to outsmart a nameless half-ogre and a hydra.......truly the mark of a tactical genius.

1) Please stop overusing periods.
2) So people have to have names in order to their defeat actually being noticed, now?
3) I love how you continue to be like this even after people have been providing you with answers.

Sarcastic snide aside....wasn't actually his idea (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html)

It was indeed. Who else's idea was it, Julia's?

Chuck Peirce

2011-07-20, 12:58 AM

Cizak

2011-07-20, 01:02 AM

Red XIV

2011-07-20, 01:05 AM

I disagree.... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) strongly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html)
Wouldn't the "initial attack" be when the Order stormed Xykon's throne room in the Dungeon of Dorukan? Seeing as that was the actual first time they attacked him.

Esprit15

2011-07-20, 01:54 AM

He attacked Thog's weapon-- a tactic which succeeded, though it now looks like it might not have mattered.
The only reason he hasn't run Thog through was because he let up to see if they wanted to call that (seeing the other gladiators ask about this, it's not a crazy thing to do) and because while sundering Thog's ax he accidentally hit his tooth. That's like saying a guy deserved to get the snot beaten out of him because the guy he was fighting flipped out when his funnybone got hit. It's not intentional, just a stupid blunder.

King of Nowhere

2011-07-20, 04:58 AM

From commentary of "don't split the party" (quoted from memory, not exact words)
"it is a testament to roy's skill as a leader the fact that, without him, the order falls apart quite quickly".
Being a good leader implies some smartness.

theinsulabot

2011-07-20, 07:02 AM

Sarcastic snide aside....wasn't actually his idea (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html)

Yes it was.

Steward

2011-07-20, 11:08 AM

This might not have been with brains, and just with pure weapon mastery and strenght, but he beat quite a bit of ninjas (probably more than just seen in linked strip). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html)

I heard that the Ninja class was actually pretty unimpressive.

No, but seriously, if someone can look at all of the comics linked so far and still say that Roy isn't clever and good at tactics then I'm not sure if there's anything left to say.

Vultawk

2011-07-20, 11:19 AM

2) So people have to have names in order to their defeat actually being noticed, now?

If having a name can keep them alive, then yeah, I guess they do.

theinsulabot

2011-07-20, 11:27 AM

If having a name can keep them alive, then yeah, I guess they do.

sabine still counts then.

Fargazer

2011-07-20, 11:36 AM

I heard that the Ninja class was actually pretty unimpressive.

It really depends on the level of the ninjas, something we don't know. If the ninja's were all level 1, they would have been jokes. If they were 4 ninjas of the same level as Roy, they still would be a challenge despite being a sub-par class overall.

paladinofshojo

2011-07-20, 01:48 PM

I don't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0164.html)

But seeing your responses it's clear you don't think Roy is a tactical genius, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree :smalltongue:

His plan only included to rush in to save his teammates.... he didn't actually thought it through.....granted most people would do the same in a situation where they don't have time to come up with a plan....But at the end of that little fiasco, it was Durkon who saved the day....mostly due to his tree phobia and the bandit "code of honor".......yeah sounds convoluted.

It was indeed. Who else's idea was it, Julia's? It wasn't technically an idea.....just dumb luck.

sabine still counts then. Only if Roy somehow knew that she was enchanted by an apprentice level wizard and therefore didn't have long lasting buffs......unless fighter levels give you divination or psionic abilities then no.

Wouldn't the "initial attack" be when the Order stormed Xykon's throne room in the Dungeon of Dorukan? Seeing as that was the actual first time they attacked him.
My mistake.......but "never bet against the gullibility of the good guys" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)

Vultawk

2011-07-20, 01:53 PM

sabine still counts then.

I'd say so.

Though, I think an amendment to the Who Counts? rule should be made for the hydra, which is a fairly big threat, as opposed to a lone mook one-trick-ponyhalf-ogre.

Also, tactically outsmarting a bunch of mooks should count too. Though I don't think Roy's done that in the strip.

Dr. Roboto

2011-07-20, 02:01 PM

First battle with Xykon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)
Sure, it was a close battle and he did fall for Xykon's "don't touch that gate" trick, but they were expecting less resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html) and Roy has no ranks in Sense Motive.

He plans for their later attack on Xykon here, round by round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html).

G-Man Graves

2011-07-20, 02:01 PM

His plan only included to rush in to save his teammates.... he didn't actually thought it through.....granted most people would do the same in a situation where they don't have time to come up with a plan....But at the end of that little fiasco, it was Durkon who saved the day....mostly due to his tree phobia and the bandit "code of honor".......yeah sounds convoluted.
It wasn't technically an idea.....just dumb luck.
Only if Roy somehow knew that she was enchanted by an apprentice level wizard and therefore didn't have long lasting buffs......unless fighter levels give you divination or psionic abilities then no.

My mistake.......but "never bet against the gullibility of the good guys" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)

First off, most of us use one period to end our sentences. I don't know if you didn't know that, or are compensating for something, or what, but the multiple periods where commas and single periods would go makes your posts hard to read. Secondly, Roy's plan to beat Sabine is still entirely valid, the only difference is that it worked better than expected due to the fact the buffs were low level.

However, as mentioned previously, if you are going to discount every instance given, you are either entirely convinced you are right, disagreeing for the sake of it, or deliberately trying to aggravate people. I have no interest in any of these things, so I bid you good day, ser.

Mutant Sheep

2011-07-20, 02:22 PM

I heard that the Ninja class was actually pretty unimpressive.
This seems like a successful ninja'ing. :smalltongue:

Wouldn't the "initial attack" be when the Order stormed Xykon's throne room in the Dungeon of Dorukan? Seeing as that was the actual first time they attacked him.Dang ninjas.:smalltongue:What I mean by this is that I was going to say the OP confused the first battle with Xykon with Azure City, but I came to the thread an hour late and Red XIV beat me to it. In case this was confusing.

paladinofshojo

2011-07-20, 02:45 PM

Secondly, Roy's plan to beat Sabine is still entirely valid, the only difference is that it worked better than expected due to the fact the buffs were low level.

How was it a "plan"? Roy had to have forlorn knowledge of Sabine's buffs and their limited duration to even be called a plan. It was more like luck and opportunity.

Esprit15

2011-07-20, 03:45 PM

How was it a "plan"? Roy had to have forlorn knowledge of Sabine's buffs and their limited duration to even be called a plan. It was more like luck and opportunity.

He seems to be aware of the buffs based on his reaction and how his sword was doing minimal damage.

paladinofshojo

2011-07-20, 04:17 PM

He seems to be aware of the buffs based on his reaction and how his sword was doing minimal damage.

How? During their battle there was no mention about her buffs until they ran out...... Hell, Sabine was actually feeling pain from the starmetal blade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html)

Esprit15

2011-07-20, 04:21 PM

How? During their battle there was no mention about her buffs until they ran out...... Hell, Sabine was actually feeling pain from the starmetal blade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html)
His comment seemed to imply some sort of knowledge about buffs, even if it wasn't specific. As to your second point, you don't have one.

martianmister

2011-07-20, 04:24 PM

How was it a "plan"? Roy had to have forlorn knowledge of Sabine's buffs and their limited duration to even be called a plan. It was more like luck and opportunity.

I agree with that. In the fifth panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html) he looks unknowing.

NYCharlie212

2011-07-20, 04:31 PM

I agree with that. In the fifth panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html) he looks unknowing.

I'm pretty sure Nale is the only character in Oots to ever announce his plan to his enemy before he puts it to action. Looks unknowing and unknowing is a big difference.

The OP seems to be discounting every bit of evidence of success that Roy has ever had for the sake of it. In that case, I could also discount every bit of success LG and Team Evil has had just for the sake of it as well. There's no point arguing with someone like him.

Esprit15

2011-07-20, 04:31 PM

Fine, I'll give him that one. Doesn't make it less of a victory, however.

Dr.Epic

2011-07-20, 04:37 PM

Why does Roy need to come up with a plan? Him acting as a meatsheild taking hits from Thog is working just fine.:smallwink:

Harr

2011-07-20, 04:40 PM

Why does Roy need to come up with a plan?

Because OP decided that "coming up with plans" now constitutes the one and only way to measure intelligence, apparently :smallsigh: Last I checked there are other ways to 'outsmart' someone than just that.

He's trying to shoot down examples of Roy showing intelligence with the argument that "well he didn't come up with it as a plan ahead of time so ha", when in fact they still show intelligence whether they were premeditated plans or not.

Premeditation and planning is an arbitrary thing thrown in purely to prove OP's own point, and in fact, it doesn't even make sense to take that as the final factor, since Roy obviously didn't walk into the arena with a plan made ahead of time, and he actually literally says that even as he insists that his intellect will get him the win.

martianmister

2011-07-20, 04:48 PM

I'm pretty sure Nale is the only character in Oots to ever announce his plan to his enemy before he puts it to action. Looks unknowing and unknowing is a big difference.

It's not "before the action". There is no reason to Roy's playing dumb in that panel...

The OP seems to be discounting every bit of evidence of success that Roy has ever had for the sake of it.

I don't care about it. Rich's word is all I need...

Dr.Epic

2011-07-20, 04:57 PM

Because OP decided that "coming up with plans" now constitutes the one and only way to measure intelligence, apparently :smallsigh: Last I checked there are other ways to 'outsmart' someone than just that.

He's trying to shoot down examples of Roy showing intelligence with the argument that "well he didn't come up with it as a plan ahead of time so ha", when in fact they still show intelligence whether they were premeditated plans or not.

Premeditation and planning is an arbitrary thing thrown in purely to prove OP's own point, and in fact, it doesn't even make sense to take that as the final factor, since Roy obviously didn't walk into the arena with a plan made ahead of time, and he actually literally says that even as he insists that his intellect will get him the win.

But Roy's current plan is working so well: letting Thog beat the tar out of him. If he keeps this up, he's sure to win.

paladinofshojo

2011-07-20, 06:18 PM

I'm pretty sure Nale is the only character in Oots to ever announce his plan to his enemy before he puts it to action. Looks unknowing and unknowing is a big difference.

Miko was also able to come up with a solid plan..... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html)

The OP seems to be discounting every bit of evidence of success that Roy has ever had for the sake of it. In that case, I could also discount every bit of success LG and Team Evil has had just for the sake of it as well. There's no point arguing with someone like him.

Ouch that hurt.....anyway, apparently asking someone for a hard reason to justify your answer is unreasonable? I already stated that the half-ogre and the hydra counted didn't I?

Because OP decided that "coming up with plans" now constitutes the one and only way to measure intelligence, apparently :smallsigh: Last I checked there are other ways to 'outsmart' someone than just that.

Have you even read my first post? :smallconfused:

He's trying to shoot down examples of Roy showing intelligence with the argument that "well he didn't come up with it as a plan ahead of time so ha", when in fact they still show intelligence whether they were premeditated plans or not.

As far as I've seen the ogre with the chain and the hydra are the only two times that Roy has shown any form of strategy and intelligence over an enemy.......What examples have I shot down for that reason? :smallconfused:

Cizak

2011-07-20, 06:24 PM

Miko was also able to come up with a solid plan..... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html)

And this has what to do with what you quoted?

paladinofshojo

2011-07-20, 06:27 PM

And this has what to do with what you quoted?

Oops, thought they were saying that Nale was the only person who comes up with plans......

Chuck Peirce

2011-07-20, 09:54 PM

As far as I've seen the ogre with the chain and the hydra are the only two times that Roy has shown any form of strategy and intelligence over an enemy.......What examples have I shot down for that reason? :smallconfused:
Er, there were numerous other examples listed in this thread already. You haven't shot them down, but you are denying their existence by claiming to have seen only two examples.

If there are subtleties that you're just not seeing, further arguing won't help. For now, I'll just recommend that you try to watch for the subtle effects Roy has on a situation. And don't expect his in-combat cleverness to be ostentatious. If you convince your opponent that you're clever, suddenly you're dealing with a more attentive opponent. Roy knows this.

Gwynfrid

2011-07-20, 10:16 PM

As far as I've seen the ogre with the chain and the hydra are the only two times that Roy has shown any form of strategy and intelligence over an enemy.......What examples have I shot down for that reason? :smallconfused:

This is definitely tactical planning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html).

Granted, we don't know yet if it will work. Plans in this comic have a knack of not working the intended way. But planning, it is.

Anyway, I think you're missing the main point here. OOTS has this little component called parody. Even Roy, as the main hero, is on the receiving end of tons of parody. And if he was outsmarting everyone at every turn, it would be boring (that's why no other hero in any other story does that either).

Roy has been established early on as a fighter who is well above average intelligence. That's not the same as a genius. And it's good enough for the vast majority or readers.

Chuck Peirce

2011-07-20, 10:38 PM

Even Roy, as the main hero, is on the receiving end of tons of parody. And if he was outsmarting everyone at every turn, it would be boring (that's why no other hero in any other story does that either).

Also, our literary tradition demands that Roy not succeed all the time. Whether or not perpetual success is possible, it still feels implausible to our sensibilities, because it defies the stories we've heard all our lives. These stories, in turn, are governed by a literary tradition that can trace its roots at least as far back as Greek tragedy. In other words, Roy can't win all the time, because the ancient Greeks said so.

Snails

2011-07-20, 10:39 PM

I would go so far as to say that great plans that work out beautifully are all handled off panel.

The Giant will only show us plans that fall somewhere between "fail with interesting positive fallout" and "succeed in a weird way the author could not have seen coming".

Do we actually want a book of all those wonderful encounters where the Order crawled through a dungeon like a well-oiled machine? Regardless of whether that portion is 10% or 90% of their career encounters, we want to see the funny ones. The Giant is flipping forward for us.

Ditto for the NPCs. NPC successes only deserve panel time when it builds anticipation. We can handwave away Xykon pillaging another city in his path.

veti

2011-07-21, 12:25 AM

Roy is not as smart (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html) as he thinks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html) he is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0356.html). But he is quite smart enough to know something Nale doesn't - that elaborate planning is a complete waste of time, unless you've got detailed advance intelligence on your enemy. (That's why the next fight with Xykon is going to be different.)

In the meantime, here are a few examples where he's demonstrated intelligence in battle:

knowing Durkon's bonuses better than he does himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html)
figuring out that stupid prophecy just in time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0059.html)
taking out the melee fighters first (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html)
calling the assassins' bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0241.html)
knowing when to listen to Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)
knowing when not to listen to Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0686.html)

I'm sure there would be more examples, but when you look for them, it's surprising how few actual battles there are in the strip.

werik

2011-07-21, 02:43 AM

I think veti has brought up many great examples of Roy's tactical sense. I would disagree about Nale not being a good tactician despite his convoluted plans, however. After all, his ambush scenarios have worked in surprising the Order (and often nearly over taking them) in the first several rounds of combat. By this point, Nale and the other members of the Linear Guild also have a good understanding of their opponents and are using it to a great advantage. I think that this is a point that the majority of people have overlooked in the comments over the current Linear Guild confrontation. One of the Linear Guild's chief advantages is, as Vaarsuvius states in this link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html) is their willingness "to devote enormous amounts of time and energy towards engineering a victory over us [the Order] personally." Because of their element of surprise and their nearly unique goal of destroying the Order, it is not surprising that the Linear Guild often outpaces the Order when they first meet. What is impressive is that the Order usually rebounds from their disadvantaged position and defeats the Linear Guild so often.

But since I realize that this last point is only loosely linked to the OP's original point, I'd like to add some other quick notes about Roy's tactical expertise. The OP rightfully pointed out that Miko successfully planned out the attack on the ogres, but it was not pointed out that Roy was developing his own plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0214.html) when Miko obstinately strode into the camp on her own.

In regards to the point about Roy only having dumb luck against Sabine in the second Linear Guild fight, I think that this is an unfair assumption. Roy has demonstrated an extensive knowledge about magic which, in my opinion, translates into cross-class ranks in Spellcraft. It seems to me entirely reasonable that Roy deduced that Sabine was magically boosted during their fight and employed a strategy of endurance against it. While this does not demonstrate the flashiest combat sequence, the strategy ultimately worked.

Let me also add that this plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html) in Xykon's throne room also worked fairly well up until the point when Belkar decided to abandon his post. Granted, the strategy would have ultimately failed as Xykon (not to mention Redcloak and the Monster in the Darkness) is extremely powerful, but Roy had no reason to believe that he was just that powerful. The reader, furthermore, had no reason to believe that he was an epic level lich at this point, either.

John Cribati

2011-07-21, 07:57 AM

Another thing to note is that Nale's plans only fail because of some incredibly improbable circumstance.

Steward

2011-07-21, 01:38 PM

Another thing to note is that Nale's plans only fail because of some incredibly improbable circumstance.

And these circumstances are only possible at all because his plans are unwieldy. He's one of those people who thinks that something that is elaborate or complex is necessarily better. His plans aren't terrible but they usually have way too many moving parts, or he tries to accomplish two or three different long-term objectives with the same plan.

He's definitely a smart guy and I wouldn't change anything about his character, but if he wanted to succeed more often and more consistently he would limit the size and scope of his plans. For example, why not just have Leeky, Sabine, and Thog jump Elan and tear him to pieces? Sure, it won't help him accomplish his other goals, but at least he can check something off of his bucket list.

Kurald Galain

2011-07-21, 01:44 PM

Oops, thought they were saying that Nale was the only person who comes up with plans......

I'd say that Roy is clearly smarter than Nale, at least.

Doug Lampert

2011-07-21, 02:13 PM

And these circumstances are only possible at all because his plans are unwieldy. He's one of those people who thinks that something that is elaborate or complex is necessarily better. His plans aren't terrible but they usually have way too many moving parts, or he tries to accomplish two or three different long-term objectives with the same plan.

He's definitely a smart guy and I wouldn't change anything about his character, but if he wanted to succeed more often and more consistently he would limit the size and scope of his plans. For example, why not just have Leeky, Sabine, and Thog jump Elan and tear him to pieces? Sure, it won't help him accomplish his other goals, but at least he can check something off of his bucket list.

Nale's plans involve FAR too many possible single failure points, and there's typically very limited backup for a failure. They're stopped by luck and mischance, but then that's fair, they only come close to working by luck and mischance.

For example, yes, Elan's method of catching up with him in Azure City was contrived, unlikely, and unforseable. But the technical term for someone who expects a high level bard to be stopped by a handful of non-magical prison guards is MORON. Of COURSE Elan was going to escape and come after him, if Elan had been even minimally competent (and Nale thinks Elan is the mastermind leader of the order) he'd have come by the regular airship and gotten their FASTER! Or there's a wizard's school in Cliffport, he could have found someone to teleport him. But only the method and timing were in question, Elan getting there somehow and getting there fairly quickly is effectively a forgone conclusion.

A good plan would have just killed him.

Similarly for the Dungeon of Durokon, at that point Nale knew almost nothing about the order, he wasn't there for the order, he was there for the talisman. Yet his plan required all members of the Order to fail spot and sense motive checks right and left against various members of group (not all of whom were any good at this sort of thing). That he got as far as icewalling the Order and flying off with the talisman is far less likely than Haley rolling a natural 20. Heck, if Haley has some sort of ranged sunder feat and rapid shot she gets three chances per turn and a natural 20 while he's on his way out is pretty likely.

A good plan wouldn't have involved BOTH trying to betray the order AND get the talisman simultaniously. Pick a goal and stick with it.

Nale's plans are BAD plans. They are bad because they are too complicated with too many goals. They are clever and well executed given the basic flaws. But the flaws are there and are serious.

For that matter, when his CURRENT plot fails, which it will. How much of the failure will be because he successfully split the order up and ambushed them, and then rather than OBLITERATING a couple of them with his full force he split his own party up in a bunch of mini-almost fair fights? Just stupid. Both real world and D&D tactics is mostly about trying to achieve local 3-1 or so superiority. Nale had a chance at that and blew it because that's not complicated enough for him.

veti

2011-07-21, 05:46 PM

For example, yes, Elan's method of catching up with him in Azure City was contrived, unlikely, and unforseable. But the technical term for someone who expects a high level bard to be stopped by a handful of non-magical prison guards is MORON. Of COURSE Elan was going to escape and come after him,

Indeed, Nale fairly acknowledged (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0386.html) that the only thing that "should" have surprised him about Elan's return was Thog's leprechaun costume.

On some, possibly subconscious, level, I think Nale wants to lose. He certainly expects to. Maybe he's absorbed that much of his family's feeling for dramatic conventions.

I keep coming back to Nale's own self-description (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html): '... when it comes to being tagonists, we're more "an" while you're pretty clearly "pro".'

An "antagonist" is not just "a villain": he's an opposing character. In other words, Nale is defining the entire LG as existing solely to play an adversarial role in someone else's story. Who thinks like that?

(He says much the same thing on escaping from Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html).)

Snails

2011-07-22, 12:24 AM

I would also point out that Nale does not amend plans when he has the opportunity, even when he is obviously skating on the edge of a cliff.

Belkar recognized Nale-Pretending-To-Be-Elan, probably because the psychotic runt gets a huge Sense Motive bonus for Favored Enemy: Human. While Charm Person is a fine temporary measure, all it would have taken is for Durkon or V to cast Detect Magic or Detect Charm to turn the situation deadly. An unleashed Belkar backed by spellcasters would have removed Nale's kidneys in nothing flat.

The wise thing to do would have been to (1) send Belkar off somewhere far away, and/or (2) hurry up and kill the dumb girl.

But Nale did neither, just because a plan that has not yet totally fallen apart is good enough if it still might work out.

Snails

2011-07-22, 12:34 AM

Heck, if Haley has some sort of ranged sunder feat and rapid shot she gets three chances per turn and a natural 20 while he's on his way out is pretty likely.

In fact, Haley is probably the best optimized member of the Order, and has been full attacking with three arrows for some time now. Employing her high Dex, she may even hit on less than a natural 20.

But this only highlights further flaws: (1) Other members of the Order could throw weapons, too, and hit on a natural 20 as well. (2) It is not a good bet that an elven wizard lacks True Strike (even if that would be a good bet about V. in particular)

Esprit15

2011-07-22, 12:56 AM

An unleashed Belkar backed by spellcasters would have removed Nale's kidneys in nothing flat.I so want a picture of that now.

The wise thing to do would have been to (1) send Belkar off somewhere far away, and/or (2) hurry up and kill the dumb girl.
Or just kill Belkar. He did say first alone, first dead, yet passed up two opportunities (though he may not have known about V).

Gift Jeraff

2011-07-22, 01:01 AM

Who thinks like that?People who exist in comedies with no fourth wall. You can't blame him for that.

legomaster00156

2011-07-22, 03:30 PM

(2) It is not a good bet that an elven wizard lacks True Strike (even if that would be a good bet about V. in particular)

As this was well before V's development, (s)he probably possesses the spell, but rarely, if ever, prepared it.

Dr.Epic

2011-07-22, 03:38 PM

Well, there are these things called eyes...

Wait, Roy has eyes? I always thought they just had dots on their heads. I mean, they don't have noses, and they are stick figures. How am I supposed to tell those are eyes?

Lord Ruby34

2011-07-22, 04:12 PM

Wait, Roy has eyes? I always thought they just had dots on their heads. I mean, they don't have noses, and they are stick figures. How am I supposed to tell those are eyes?

I'm about 95% sure your being sarcastic, but we can call those dots spot check enablers if it works better.

dps

2011-07-22, 08:23 PM

I think Roy's plan against Xykon in the Dungeon of Durokan was good. It only didn't work because Xykon got tipped off that Roy's sword was buffed up.

snikrept

2011-07-23, 08:41 AM

His plan to escape the assassins at the inn, with no weapons except a mop and a Belt of Gender Changing, worked well. Truly a disparate situation!

We find out later he also had potions of delay poison and shillelagh oil on him with which to stabilize Elan and turn his broomstick into a magic weapon, but didn't think to use them...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html

cheesecake

2011-07-23, 10:07 AM

This is the only thing roy ever did that was worth anything to me. And in the end even that got messed up! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)

Psyren

2011-07-23, 08:26 PM

Alright so he was able to outsmart a nameless half-ogre and a hydra.......truly the mark of a tactical genius.

You asked, we answered.

thereaper

2011-07-24, 01:14 AM

We find out later he also had potions of delay poison and shillelagh oil on him with which to stabilize Elan and turn his broomstick into a magic weapon, but didn't think to use them...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html

What makes you think he had those while he was at the inn? :smallconfused:

Goosefarble

2011-07-24, 09:23 AM

Well, there are these things called eyes...

Lol'd for about five minutes.

Kurald Galain

2011-07-24, 10:25 AM

What makes you think he had those while he was at the inn? :smallconfused:

Because that's the joke, obviously.

Zmflavius

2011-07-24, 02:14 PM

17. According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans.

Sunzi (2006). The Art of War (Kindle Locations 548-549). Public Domain Books. Kindle Edition.

Measuring intelligence based solely on ability to make pre-determined plans is ridiculous. Plans, obviously, are important, but an inability to adapt to new situations completely invalidates any planning.

Furthermore, Sun Zi also places great emphasis on a general who possesses: "wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage and strictness," basically, a general who is brave, smart, and inspiring enough to hold a fighting force together.

Which, for some reason, doesn't include Roy.

Vacant

2011-07-24, 03:03 PM

I heard that the Ninja class was actually pretty unimpressive.

No, but seriously, if someone can look at all of the comics linked so far and still say that Roy isn't clever and good at tactics then I'm not sure if there's anything left to say.

I think the problem is that he isn't much or any better than most other party members. He's outwitted foes who haven't been demonstrated to be too smart and sometimes is the member who comes up with the desperate situation's solution, but it's often others, as well. Sure, he's clever enough, but I wouldn't go so far as tactical genius.

Also, let's remember that, by some of the definitions of "outsmarted" used here, it's arguable that Thog has outwitted Roy, in the past.

Esprit15

2011-07-24, 05:28 PM

Sure, he's clever enough, but I wouldn't go so far as tactical genius.
Where did he say he was a tactical genius? All he said is that he will outwit Thog somehow.

Kurald Galain

2011-07-24, 05:35 PM

Furthermore, Sun Zi also places great emphasis on a general who possesses: "wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage and strictness," basically, a general who is brave, smart, and inspiring enough to hold a fighting force together.

Which, for some reason, doesn't include Roy.

...why not? A certain Deva seems to hold a different opinion.

Zmflavius

2011-07-24, 07:55 PM

...why not? A certain Deva seems to hold a different opinion.

Why? I thought she just thought that he was too acerbic?

lemonhoney

2011-07-24, 11:15 PM

I'd like to interrupt this debate with the conclusion to another:

The OP's name is paladinofshojo.

Roy once said, "Wow, Miko Miyazaki ignoring all possibilities in order to arrice at a preconceived conclusion that happens to support her existing emotional state."

Conclusion: Miko was revived, but now spends her time arguing on message boards.

I mean really, where else would a paladin go? :smalltongue:

legomaster00156

2011-07-25, 12:17 AM

Esprit15

2011-07-25, 01:32 AM

I think you may have just won this thread. I'll wait for an older Playgrounder to confirm it.

I'm a week older (several years in Internet time) and yes, Lemon has indeed won this thread.

Cizak

2011-07-25, 01:43 AM

I think you may have just won this thread. I'll wait for an older Playgrounder to confirm it.

Yup. Don't know if I have the authority to do it, but *hans over thread to lemonhoney*.

Sunken Valley

2011-07-25, 02:36 AM

When has Roy come up with a plan? Just now, that's when

Killer Angel

2011-07-25, 03:40 AM

Measuring intelligence based solely on ability to make pre-determined plans is ridiculous. Plans, obviously, are important, but an inability to adapt to new situations completely invalidates any planning.

Judging by this and the current strip (where Roy put on a plan on the run, based on the new situation) means that, by Sun Tzu standards, Roy is an intelligent fighter.

Hironomus

2011-07-25, 05:03 AM

Roy is the leader of the Order of the stick. Therefore every situation they find themselves in is partly due to his decisions. To some extent he picks their battles. Sometimes things don't work out for them, but just because a plan doesn't work, doesn't mean it was an inherently stupid plan.
Roy has kept himself and the order alive despite unfavourable circumstances so far, with one notable exception (good thing he thought to hire a cleric as a contingency). Just think, without Roy's guidance things could have been worse. Things could have been alot worse.
But until such a time as an alternate strip detailing the adventures of the Order of the Stick as led by any of the other members, is released I guess we will never know for certain how effective Roy's plans actually are.

theinsulabot

2011-07-25, 09:11 AM

zero

2011-07-25, 09:26 AM

well there was that one time he shoved a crossbow bolt all the way through a barbarian's leg, then shoved glass in his eye in order to overcome his higher movement speed in attempt to outlast his rage.

that was pretty cool. Oh yeah, I remember that one! Unarmed against a raging half-orc, he pulled two consecutive improvised weapon attacks, and one critical hit!

Klear

2011-07-25, 09:48 AM

Oh yeah, I remember that one! Unarmed against a raging half-orc, he pulled two consecutive improvised weapon attacks, and one critical hit!

I bet something like that would be enough to turn the tables in the current fight against Thog...

Occasional Sage

2011-07-25, 09:59 AM

I think you may have just won this thread. I'll wait for an older Playgrounder to confirm it.

Why wait to be told you're right when you so clearly are?

EmperorSarda

2011-07-28, 11:51 AM

But Roy's current plan is working so well: letting Thog beat the tar out of him. If he keeps this up, he's sure to win.

Well he could try to escape, but that would draw attention to the Linear Guild fight and show all their hand to Tarquin.

Besides, running and waiting out Thog's rage is the smart thing to do, because once the rage ends, Thog will be exhausted.

Cizak

2011-10-04, 07:19 AM

Th- Thog....?
:eek:

Mutant Sheep

2011-10-04, 07:22 AM

Thog... no! NOOOOOO! :smallfurious: YOU KILLED HIM!

Pronounceable

2011-10-04, 07:32 AM

Thog... no! NOOOOOO! :smallfurious: YOU KILLED HIM!
He had it coming.

ThePhantasm

2011-10-04, 07:33 AM

Thog... no! NOOOOOO! :smallfurious: YOU KILLED HIM!

I want him to die. Seriously. Has to happen sooner or later anyways, and he is evil.

On another note, I loved it when Roy said "stop talking."

Kurald Galain

2011-10-04, 08:00 AM

He had it coming.

He only had himself to blame...

MoonCat

2011-10-04, 08:50 AM

He only had himself to blame...

If you'd have been there...

(In order to not totally be spamming, I would like to add, Thog should die. It's been long enough, he just had a pile of rocks fall on him, storywise it makes sense for him not to be revived...)

Hironomus

2011-10-04, 09:08 AM

If you'd have been there...

(In order to not totally be spamming, I would like to add, Thog should die. It's been long enough, he just had a pile of rocks fall on him, storywise it makes sense for him not to be revived...)

If you'd have seen it...

I don't believe it. Thog could totally take a little tap like that! He's probably just exhausted from raging and having a nap... He still needs to have his touching reunion with Elan or the linear guild :smallfrown:
He can't be dead... i wont believe it till I see the X's of his eyes.

MoonCat

2011-10-04, 09:25 AM

If you'd have seen it...

I don't believe it. Thog could totally take a little tap like that! He's probably just exhausted from raging and having a nap... He still needs to have his touching reunion with Elan or the linear guild :smallfrown:
He can't be dead... i wont believe it till I see the X's of his eyes.

I betcha you would have done the same

(Touching? Elan knows he's a bad guy now, for realz. He's not so cute and unscary anymore, now I just want him dead)

The Wanderer

2011-10-04, 09:34 AM

At least Thog wasn't popping gum. He would certainly be dead then. :smalltongue:

Like some have said I won't believe it until I see the his eyes looking like this: X X, and it wouldn't surprise me if Thog is buried but unable to get out from under the rubble or has stabilized somewhere just short of -10.

That said, with both Thog and Z out of the way, the Linear Guild has to lose for good sometime... this could be the Giant's way of giving them a send off without being confirmed alive or dead...

Personally though, I think the LG has one last appearance left, just when the Order is moving on one of the Gates.

Katuko

2011-10-04, 02:29 PM

Roy has been smashed into, through and with so much stone during this fight and remained standing that I think Thog can take a "simple" ceiling drop. I don't know if all the ceiling at once falls under the rules for Massive Damage, but if it does then Thog might die. I have no idea about Damage Resistance either. I should read up on it, I guess.

Roy took this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0796.html) to the face (plus some column smashing) with seemingly little trouble. Thog just got hit by approximately six times that rock (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html), presumably he will live. If he does, Roy should be able to finish him off, however. He certainly has reasons to.

Souhiro

2011-10-04, 03:23 PM

Well, I think this is by far, the greatest victory of Roy. Because all of his previous victories were... well..

The much comented victory against the half ogre was Deus Ex Machina in action. He spotted a cliff, and the half ogre with spiked chain, who started the attack, didn't know it was there? Please...

In Azure City, he failed to do accomplish anything, unless you count "having luck to save Vaarsuvius without meaning it" and "fall to his doom" Man... most of my characters carry a Feather Fall potion! it's awfully CHEAP!

His first defeat of Xykon was pure sheer luck. It was more a D&D- first Ed. thing, about "make the evil guy touch the extreme goodness McGuffin, so it will destroy him"

So. First Earned Victory for our fighter. Congrats, a fighter can be awesome... with a 39+ Points build!!

Steward

2011-10-04, 03:24 PM

Sometimes, when there's been some interval between fight scenes, I forget how powerful these guys are supposed to be. Check out panel 10 and succeeding -- Thog just leapt about seventy feet into the air, landed on Roy's back, and drove him a thick wall of solid stone. Then Roy jumps up, takes several more blows capable of turning a normal human head into a greasy smear, and brings down an entire building almost exclusively by using his own skull as a battering ram.

These two might not be able to travel to stop time or travel to other planets in a blink of an eye, but damn.

SamBurke

2011-10-04, 03:28 PM

Boy howdy. DnD is NOT realistic, is it?

Rinquist

2011-10-04, 03:35 PM

But Roy's current plan is working so well: letting Thog beat the tar out of him. If he keeps this up, he's sure to win.

Sounds like you called it. Also sounds like you didn't intend to.

G-Man Graves

2011-10-04, 03:54 PM

Well, I guess we can now all agree that Roy is capable of cunning plans that result in crushing victories.

Vemynal

2011-10-04, 04:10 PM

at the OP

right f-ing now! =D

SoC175

2011-10-04, 04:28 PM

The much comented victory against the half ogre was Deus Ex Machina in action. He spotted a cliff, and the half ogre with spiked chain, who started the attack, didn't know it was there? Please... I also always wondered if this joke was not born out of incomplete rules knowledge on the Giant's part (aka not knowing that spring attack doesn't require to move in straight lines, the ogre could have followed through with his tactic despite the cliff without any troubles).

So. First Earned Victory for our fighter. Congrats, a fighter can be awesome... with a 39+ Points build!! Being a chance-less punchingball until your superior enemy does a tactical mistake isn't something I will ever call an earned victory

Sometimes, when there's been some interval between fight scenes, I forget how powerful these guys are supposed to be. Check out panel 10 and succeeding -- Thog just leapt about seventy feet into the air, landed on Roy's back, and drove him a thick wall of solid stone. Then Roy jumps up, takes several more blows capable of turning a normal human head into a greasy smear, and brings down an entire building almost exclusively by using his own skull as a battering ram.

These two might not be able to travel to stop time or travel to other planets in a blink of an eye, but damn.Well, that mostly the Giant exaggerating the fight scenes to have it more cinematic. Even in D&D characters of their level are not supposed to be able to do that.

I think Roy's plan against Xykon in the Dungeon of Durokan was good. It only didn't work because Xykon got tipped off that Roy's sword was buffed up. It wouldn't have worked because they were completely outmatched by Xykon. Even a solid hit would have barely registered on him, the spell is just not that powerful

Cizak

2011-10-04, 04:59 PM

Being a chance-less punchingball until your superior enemy does a tactical mistake isn't something I will ever call an earned victory

When was Roy a punching bag? First, he was taken by surprise. But after the healing potion, Roy fought an even match with enraged Thog. This last strip he became a punching bag willingly, and that's what earned him his victory.

Rinquist

2011-10-04, 05:35 PM

Being a chance-less punchingball until your superior enemy does a tactical mistake isn't something I will ever call an earned victory

Pardon me, sir. But are we reading the same comic? Besides, a raging barbarian does not make "tactical mistakes". There are no tactics involved in his modus operandi aside from "stomp the other guy until he's a greasy stain on the ground".

Roy adapted and was able to literally crush Thog by thinking on the fly.

Jay R

2011-10-04, 07:52 PM

Mutant Sheep

2011-10-04, 08:00 PM

You think it's contrived that Roy can see what's in front of him, but the half-ogre can't see what's behind him?

Also, half-ogre who came up with a evil plan to beat melee PC's does not equal omnipotent minmaxer. :smalltongue:

One Step Two

2011-10-05, 03:42 AM

As an aside, unless Thog Spent a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike, all hits taken and given with bare hands, even smashing people into the wall are subdual based damage. Smashing Roy physically with masonry is an improvised weapon, and deals lethal damage. Damage from falling objects is lethal damage.
Rather than delving any deeper into the rules minutae of what just happened, it's very likely they took exactly as much damage as the author deemed necessary to drive an interesting (and in my not so humble opinion, awesome) fight scene forwards.

Speaking of authors, Roy's tactical genius follows the same rules, he's exactly as compotent as the speed of the plot demands. I'm going to out-line simple facts:
Roy has a good Int Score, as proven by his MBA (Master of Battle Administration)
Roy has decent wisdom and charisma.
Any further questions of why we don't see Roy put that intellect to use can be addressed to the final panel of this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

Souhiro

2011-10-05, 04:34 AM

You think it's contrived that Roy can see what's in front of him, but the half-ogre can't see what's behind him?

Well, the half-ogre and his friends did set up the ambush, so they were bound to know that there was a cliff, if it was before. You know that in your everyday D&D game, that wouldn't work.

I think that the cliff was conjured by Roy, who is really a wizard. If he was a smart fighter instead of a wizard, he just would have carried a bow and some arrows for that kind of eventualities, and would have shoot down the half ogre mantaining the distances.

grimbold

2011-10-05, 06:17 AM

Well, the half-ogre and his friends did set up the ambush, so they were bound to know that there was a cliff, if it was before. You know that in your everyday D&D game, that wouldn't work.

I think that the cliff was conjured by Roy, who is really a wizard. If he was a smart fighter instead of a wizard, he just would have carried a bow and some arrows for that kind of eventualities, and would have shoot down the half ogre mantaining the distances.

the bow and arrow thing actually makes sense

the only solution i have to that is that he must not have great DEX

Cizak

2011-10-05, 06:42 AM

Well, the half-ogre and his friends did set up the ambush,

Er... no? The ogres had made camp there. It was the Order and Miko who attacked the ogres. And very openly so.

raymundo

2011-10-05, 06:57 AM

Well, the half-ogre and his friends did set up the ambush, so they were bound to know that there was a cliff, if it was before. You know that in your everyday D&D game, that wouldn't work.

Even so, what is the matter? As we saw the ogre falling down the cliff, Roy must have kept him too distracted to notice / remember it. What is your point? That it was a bad story, not realistic, too much of a strain?

Kish

2011-10-05, 06:58 AM

Er... no? The ogres had made camp there. It was the Order and Miko who attacked the ogres. And very openly so.
Setting aside whether it would even be a valid assumption that "the half-ogre should have the area's layout memorized" if they were ambushing the Order.

TSED

2011-10-05, 07:23 AM

I think that the cliff was conjured by Roy, who is really a wizard. If he was a smart fighter instead of a wizard, he just would have carried a bow and some arrows for that kind of eventualities, and would have shoot down the half ogre mantaining the distances.

Followed by a disarm, because, you know, spiked chain.

Zmflavius

2011-10-05, 07:41 AM

Setting aside whether it would even be a valid assumption that "the half-ogre should have the area's layout memorized" if they were ambushing the Order.

Well technically, it is generally a good rule-of-thumb if you're staying in an area for any prolonged period of time, and if for any reason, someone might attack you.

Andre

2011-10-05, 07:53 AM

On another note, I loved it when Roy said "stop talking."

That's quite the equivalent of a wizard telling "Stop casting spells" to a rogue who has used a wand of sleep once.

Yuki Akuma

2011-10-05, 09:52 AM

That's quite the equivalent of a wizard telling "Stop casting spells" to a rogue who has used a wand of sleep once.

It's a call back.

Gullintanni

2011-10-05, 09:55 AM

Well technically, it is generally a good rule-of-thumb if you're staying in an area for any prolonged period of time, and if for any reason, someone might attack you.

Generally, you and I, as humans, would agree. I believe the implication being made is that Half-Ogres are dumb enough that "Memorizing surroundings for tactical benefit" becomes a questionable assumption.

Gift Jeraff

2011-10-05, 05:32 PM

Personally though, I think the LG has one last appearance left, just when the Order is moving on one of the Gates.I'd say it's fair to assume the Linear Guild (or at least Nale and Sabine) will be around until the end, since in DStP the Giant says "It's safe to say that [the three fiends] are here for the long haul," and I doubt they'll outlast their pawns (not to mention more significant characters).

Math_Mage

2011-10-05, 07:58 PM

Roy has done plenty of smart things and plenty of stupid things. But since the question in the title is whether he's come up with a plan to outsmart an enemy, and numerous examples of such have been presented, there's no reason to continue the argument. Unless of course you're emotionally invested in the argument that Roy is a moron. :smallsigh:

veti

2011-10-05, 10:56 PM

Generally, you and I, as humans, would agree. I believe the implication being made is that Half-Ogres are dumb enough that "Memorizing surroundings for tactical benefit" becomes a questionable assumption.

It's a freakin' cliff, not a bush. It's hardly the sort of thing you say "huh, whaddya know, never noticed that before". Even a half-ogre is bright enough to notice a cliff in their immediate surroundings.

Unless the other half is "-lemming", of course.

factotum

2011-10-06, 01:51 AM

Even a half-ogre is bright enough to notice a cliff in their immediate surroundings.

Not if they hadn't walked off in that direction before, and even if he *did* know there was a cliff around, he didn't necessarily have to remember exactly where it is! Besides, I think you're massively over-analyzing something that was done as a joke...

Killer Angel

2011-10-06, 04:08 AM

It's a freakin' cliff, not a bush. It's hardly the sort of thing you say "huh, whaddya know, never noticed that before". Even a half-ogre is bright enough to notice a cliff in their immediate surroundings.

Curiously, peoples can fall from a cliff, even when they've noted it.
A week ago, near my home, a man was attending his garden on a hillside, who ended on the edge of a massive wall on the side of the main street.
Guess what? he was distracted and fell for 30 feet (stupid thing to never have put a barrier on the top of the wall, but still...)

Raistlin82

2011-10-06, 08:34 AM

Roy comes up with plans all the time, which mostly don't work. Also, most of the plans don't necessarily involve outsmarting somebody.

I don't see how Roy acknowledging that the half-ogre was basically eliminating himself counts as a strategy.
Ok, ok... I have to be completely honest: there was acknowledging and there was also surviving until the half-ogre eliminated himself.
Still, that is not a plan.

The Sabine one (it's evidently planned) and the Thog one definitely count both as plans and outsmarting somebody.

The hydra one counts as a plan, but not as outsmarting his foe. Same for "Grab your bizarro twin and beat the living hell out of them" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0060.html).

His first encounter with Xykon was a failed plan (his strategy was all based around bolstering up his sword... which was shattered at the beginning of the fight). Same for the second one (for obvious reasons). And same for the one man assault on the bandits (the OotS lost that fight).

Other instances, as him defeating some ninjas off panel, don't count as planning nor as outsmarting anybody.

The Gender Belt escape obviously does not count, since it was Elan's idea. Improvising does not mean agreeing to use somebody else's plan, and agreeing to use somebody else's plan does not get you credit for said plan.

Roy thinking about his next fight with Xykon is definitely a plan, does not count as outsmarting somebody (that we know of) and its result is yet unknown.

mini_magician

2011-10-06, 11:34 AM

Roy helped plan the battle of Azure City against the hobogoblins. They didn't win, but if you look at the tactics they had, there were some really good ideas. Not all of them were necessarily his, but he was part of the planning.

Tactics used in the battle:

-Mass enlarge person (with other buffs)
-Assigning his team to assist in various locations where they would be most helpful
-Instead of wasting his efforts killing hobogoblins, finding Xykon himself (and once they realized there were duplicates, finding the real Xykon)

EDIT
And seriously, who would think "Oh, I bet the enemy is building a bridge of their own dead bodies so that they can breach the wall." People just can't really plan for these things.

Dragon Tales has good tacticizing...

I'd like to point out that when 3.5 fought 4.0 in Dragon Tales, 3.5 Roy seemed to plan the tactics very very well. Also, 4.0 Roy was pretty adept at using his powers effectively.

Raistlin82

2011-10-06, 11:39 AM

And seriously, who would think "Oh, the Bad Guy is riding a dragon, I bet he cast Overland flight on himself so that he doesn't need a dragon to fly." Not even the best tacticians can plan for everything, and with epic spell casters on the other team, it would be even harder to plan for things.
If you're a fighter with no means of flying, fighting an epic sorcerer (which probably has many means of flying, or at least floating down safely) up in the sky, on top of his dragon is generally considered as poor tactical skills.

mini_magician

2011-10-06, 11:41 AM

True that. Unless of course your plan is to "take him down with you." Maybe Roy thought that as long as Xykon died, it would cost Roy his life (temporarily, anyway).

Rinquist

2011-10-06, 06:57 PM

True that. Unless of course your plan is to "take him down with you." Maybe Roy thought that as long as Xykon died, it would cost Roy his life (temporarily, anyway).

We *are* talking about a world where death and resurrection can be quite literally a revolving door. Also, it's funny how often heroism and stupidity straddle the same line - Roy sees his duty to the blood oath, and to the world in general, and jumped up there to take Xykon because in his mind it was still better than doing *nothing* and allowing the sorcerer to fly on in on his zombie dragon unchecked. I can agree that it was a poor tactical choice, but his motivations were very clear to me.

Kish

2011-10-06, 07:07 PM

Also, Roy didn't know Xykon was epic-level. The previous time he'd fought Xykon, the most powerful spell Xykon showed any sign of having was Symbol of Pain.

Nevereatcars

2011-10-06, 08:22 PM

Curiously, peoples can fall from a cliff, even when they've noted it.
A week ago, near my home, a man was attending his garden on a hillside, who ended on the edge of a massive wall on the side of the main street.
Guess what? he was distracted and fell for 30 feet (stupid thing to never have put a barrier on the top of the wall, but still...)

Who puts a barrier on top of a wall? It's a wall. It IS the barrier.

Shhalahr Windrider

2011-10-06, 09:40 PM

Who puts a barrier on top of a wall? It's a wall. It IS the barrier.
If you are on top of the wall, it’s not providing any barrier between you and the ground.

See, his situation was like this:

https://img.skitch.com/20111007-8egeg5fqt1b5ce34t8kpxecr8k.png

But it should have been like this:

https://img.skitch.com/20111007-djmr1eb1jxx6sx65ew1tkepnpx.png

As you can see, the stick man has nothing to keep him from the edge in the first picture. But in the second, there is a nice, bright, red fence to help him out.

Souhiro

2011-10-07, 05:39 AM

My biggest complaint about Roy is when he gloats about his INT. And until this very last strip, it was more an informed ability.

he has taken a LOT of damage. and even it has been done with improvised weaponry, thog STR while raging must be at 22+ at least! (And I think it can be even more) so any landed blow would have been heavy damage. Roy survived more for by High Con and lucky Hit Dices than improvising a plan. (I don't think he planned to be launched to the stands, being plummeled down to the dungeons, landing where he can use thog's rage against himself, and even callibrating the exact second Thog's rage would end)

And about the Ranks... well, if I were a fighter that puts his life at the stake on everyday basis, and have tons of ranks, I would take "Knowledge: Dungeons", some ranks in Heal, Spot/Listen, enough climbing to overcome armor penalties... and of course RIDING; wich is more useful on daily basis (and even to pick up girls) than Knowledge: Architecture.

It's rule of funny, ok, but Roy's two more celebrated victories were Rule of Funny, while Belkar's epic return was Awesome AND funny, Haley fighting Tsukiko and leading the resistance was beathtaking AND funny, Darth V vs Dragon, Xykon vs Dark V, and O'Chul and V vs Xykon vas purely awesome... But Roy? Roy is Funny that pretends to be also awesome.

Ancalagon

2011-10-07, 05:44 AM

Ahhh good point........well then can't argue that.......Roy's only apparent "genius" victory was over an unnamed ogre.........yeah, mark of a true strategist right there.:smallbiggrin:

You ask for an example. You get one. You dismiss it.

Hum...

... yeah... awesome.

Apart from this: I think the Ogre jumped more often than shown, so he probably covered a longer area than estimated here.

Killer Angel

2011-10-07, 05:48 AM

nice visual explanation

Exactly, thanks for the graphic support... and have a cookie!

Shhalahr Windrider

2011-10-07, 06:15 AM

Exactly, thanks for the graphic support... and have a cookie!
Cookie! Num!

Cizak

2011-10-07, 10:17 AM

It's rule of funny, ok, but Roy's two more celebrated victories were Rule of Funny, while Belkar's epic return was Awesome AND funny,

Belkar fought low level thieves and ahd a cleric to back him up.

Haley fighting Tsukiko and leading the resistance was beathtaking AND funny,

Haley lost against Tsukiko and we don't have any idea that Roy wouldn't have been able to lead the resistance. He probably would have been.

Darth V vs Dragon,

V only won because of the three epic level souls. Without them, he was useless.

Xykon vs Dark V,

V lost. Horribly.

and O'Chul and V vs Xykon

O-chul and V lost. Horribly.

theNater

2011-10-07, 01:34 PM

My biggest complaint about Roy is when he gloats about his INT. And until this very last strip, it was more an informed ability.
Roy correctly deduced that the hydra would pass out when it grew enough heads, and that the assassins at the inn were unwilling to kill civilians. He also knows the epic spellcasting rules.

He has uncommon knowledge and makes correct deductions. What more do you want as a demonstration of his INT score?

Roy survived more for by High Con and lucky Hit Dices than improvising a plan.
Roy survived by having high hit points. He won by improvising a plan.

And about the Ranks... well, if I were a fighter that puts his life at the stake on everyday basis, and have tons of ranks, I would take "Knowledge: Dungeons", some ranks in Heal, Spot/Listen, enough climbing to overcome armor penalties... and of course RIDING; wich is more useful on daily basis (and even to pick up girls) than Knowledge: Architecture.
Let's examine those skills.

Knowledge: Dungeons: Roy may well have ranks in it. 2-4 ranks is enough to give him a better than even chance to make a DC 15 checks, and he can totally afford to have 2-4 ranks in several knowledge skills.

Heal: As far as I know, a curative potion is always more useful than a Heal check in emergencies, and carrying the victim to a doctor or cleric is always more useful than a cross-class Heal check in non-emergencies. For Roy, what do ranks in Heal provide that carrying around a few potions doesn't?

Spot/Listen: These are not very good skills to take cross-class, because they are usually used in opposition to the Hide/Move Silently of someone for whom they are class skills.

Climb: The worst an armor check penalty gets for someone not using a shield is 7. Climb is a class skill for fighters. Roy could easily have taken 7 ranks in climb by level 4, and doing so would not be a significant expenditure for him.

Ride: Roy has enough ride to get around, and adventurers spend a lot of time in places horses won't or can't go.

Andre

2011-10-07, 01:51 PM

It's a call back.

Call it as you will, reading that panel is like witnessing a known professional burglar and con man yelling "Quit stealing!" to a fourteen-years-old kid who just nabbed his first pen from a supermarket. :smalltongue:

Forum Explorer

2011-10-07, 02:12 PM

Belkar fought low level thieves and ahd a cleric to back him up.

Haley lost against Tsukiko and we don't have any idea that Roy wouldn't have been able to lead the resistance. He probably would have been.

V only won because of the three epic level souls. Without them, he was useless.

V lost. Horribly.

O-chul and V lost. Horribly.

Epic and awesome fights do not necessarily mean a victory for the good guys or even that the fight is in anyway fair. So I don't exactly see your point.

This strip I would count as an awesome win for Roy.

Luminescence

2011-10-07, 02:23 PM

Call it as you will, reading that panel is like witnessing a known professional burglar and con man yelling "Quit stealing!" to a fourteen-years-old kid who just nabbed his first pen from a supermarket. :smalltongue:

Not really. Roy wanted Thog to stop talking because Thog is obnoxious. It's not like he wanted him to stop talking because he hates when people talk.

FujinAkari

2011-10-07, 03:32 PM

Who puts a barrier on top of a wall? It's a wall. It IS the barrier.

You have clearly never been to the Grand Canyon

Unisus

2011-10-10, 02:08 PM

Call it as you will, reading that panel is like witnessing a known professional burglar and con man yelling "Quit stealing!" to a fourteen-years-old kid who just nabbed his first pen from a supermarket. :smalltongue:

Maybe you should just re-read strip #796. It just has nothing to do with Roy not liking Thog talking.

CloakedDancer

2011-10-10, 09:00 PM

Call it as you will, reading that panel is like witnessing a known professional burglar and con man yelling "Quit stealing!" to a fourteen-years-old kid who just nabbed his first pen from a supermarket. :smalltongue:

I'm sorry but I don't see how that makes any sense at all. That was not the first time Thog ever spoke. Thog has always been capable of talking. I don't see how either of your analogies parallels Roy telling Thog to "stop talking".

Souhiro

2011-10-13, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by Souhiro: Funny, while Belkar's epic return was Awesome AND funny,
Belkar fought low level thieves and ahd a cleric to back him up.

- Haley fighting Tsukiko and leading the resistance was beathtaking AND funny,
Haley lost against Tsukiko and we don't have any idea that Roy wouldn't have been able to lead the resistance. He probably would have been.

- Darth V vs Dragon,
V only won because of the three epic level souls. Without them, he was useless.

- Xykon vs Dark V,
V lost. Horribly.

- and O'Chul and V vs Xykon
O-chul and V lost. Horribly.

Well, you take a victory as a "completly annihilate the enemy party".
Belkar won against a lot of low-level roges, but even those could have been a menace. Remember that Haley was hiding from those very same rogues, and she -may- have more levels than Belkar. Plus, Low level or high level, that don't make the scene less awesome.

Haley WON against Tsukiko, because she SURVIVED and freed some slaves, which was her objetive. Roy would have charged against Tsukiko (Since he ALWAYS charge) and would have been touched by all the wights.

Darth V vs Dragon was awesome, because the inmense arcane power released, that's true, but was indeed more awesome that letting someone fall into a never-seen-before cliff, or let your enemy break three columns (and half) with your skull!

Xykon vs Darth V was an awesome victory. For XYKON.

Xykon and O'chul was awesome, because they indeed managed to defeat Xykon. Sure, they couldn't kill him without any spells left nor any gear, but they managed to stole his soul-hidey-place, almost destroyed it in the Rift, and now it may still be lost in the sewers, or even the bottom of the sea. Since his Lichdom, Xykon NEVER was that scared.

That's why I say that Roy victories aren't made of awesome, but other's victories are.

Cizak

2011-10-13, 05:41 AM

Well, you take a victory as a "completly annihilate the enemy party".

No, but I take it as "actually winning the fight".

Belkar won against a lot of low-level roges, but even those could have been a menace. Remember that Haley was hiding from those very same rogues, and she -may- have more levels than Belkar. Plus, Low level or high level, that don't make the scene less awesome.

I'm not saying it wasn't awesome, I'm saying you're comparing two completely different scenarios. As said, Belkar had just been fully restored, had a cleric as backup and an animal companion for spell casters. All the rogues was takes by surprise. They were never any match for Belkar.

Roy won unarmed against an enraged half orc barbarian. Completely different.

Haley WON against Tsukiko, because she SURVIVED and freed some slaves, which was her objetive. Roy would have charged against Tsukiko (Since he ALWAYS charge) and would have been touched by all the wights.

Surviving =/= Winning

Haley lost. She got over confident and Tsukiko whooped her ass. She had to flee, Isamu got killed and what saved her was a halfling with a house cat. Getting a team member killed was not her objective.

Why the h'll would Roy have charged? "Because he always charge", what kind of lame argument is that? Roy is a smart guy, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have charged into a group of wights.

Darth V vs Dragon was awesome, because the inmense arcane power released, that's true, but was indeed more awesome that letting someone fall into a never-seen-before cliff, or let your enemy break three columns (and half) with your skull!

What's more awesome here is matter of taste, but it doesn't change the fact that the dragon was no threat whatsoever against Darth V. Thog was a threat to Roy. Once again, completely different scenarios.

Xykon vs Darth V was an awesome victory. For XYKON.

Phhyea right. If you consider "enemy zapped by instaled runes, one dispel spell one fog spell cast by someone else and a stone to the head" as awesome. V was never a threat to Xykon. What damage did he ever inflict? The sunburst spell? Way to go, you managed to do damage with one spell, V. There was never any contest.

Xykon and O'chul was awesome, because they indeed managed to defeat Xykon. Sure, they couldn't kill him without any spells left nor any gear, but they managed to stole his soul-hidey-place, almost destroyed it in the Rift, and now it may still be lost in the sewers, or even the bottom of the sea. Since his Lichdom, Xykon NEVER was that scared.

You seem to have a very warped view of "winning" and "defeating". V and O-chul neither won nor defeated anyone in this fight. The managed to throw one object into water. Then Xykon stopped fooling around and would have killed them if it wasn't for MitD. V and O-chul lost. I can't believe I'm even discussing that.

That's why I say that Roy victories aren't made of awesome, but other's victories are.

Roy won by himself, by his own hands and by his own wit, and by using the enviroment to his advantage. The others either won because there was no threat to begin with or they didn't win.

I'm not saying the moments listed aren't awesome, but I am saying that comparing them to Roy's fight is dumb.

Fishman

2011-10-13, 05:42 AM

While it's clear that Roy is intelligent, he has never claimed to be a genius. As a rule, people who are intelligent do not "come up with plans to outsmart people", because to actually PLAN to outsmart someone involves being consciously aware that you are that much smarter than your opponent, and being aware of exactly what your opponent's limitations are. It's really quite difficult internalizing the notion that everyone is truly that much dumber than you are, unless you have megalomania. It's not like a video game where one can know exactly what the AI's cognitive limitations are. Roy frequently demonstrates frustration when confronted with people who are clearly less intelligent than he is: This is a sign that he has not really internalized the notion that he is above others. A plan that depends on your opponent being too stupid to see what you can clearly see seems like a bad plan. Since Roy doesn't believe that he's all that much smarter than anyone else, a plan that contains a critical flaw that relies on opponent stupidity to cover doesn't occur to him.

V, on the other hand, DOES believe he's smarter than everyone else, and when he comes up with his "genius plan", it can end in defeat because it turns out his opponent is either not THAT dumb, or a little TOO dumb. V comes up with such courses of action, because, frankly, he has ego issues.