Rebuking Question

[Silva Stormrage]

Quick question about rebuking. If I give a lvl 6 character a rod of defiance and had him control 9 human skeletons. Then had him drop the rod of defiance, would the undead remain under his control?

Thank you for the help.

[Silva Stormrage]

Does anyone know?

[Silva Stormrage]

Third bump's the charm....

[begooler]

Okay, I don't have an answer for you, but here's some observations I made that might help you draw a conclusion for yourself, or provoke someone else to respond with their opinion.

1) The description of turning, rebuking, and commanding undead doesn't say anything about whether or not the effect is instantaneous. There is a duration specified, which to me suggests that it's not.

2) The spell "Command Undead" is not instantaneous.

3) Commanding Undead as a cleric requires a standard action to give each instruction. This would leave me to believe that you cannot continue to give instructions to undead (that you are controlling through means of the rod) after you drop it.

4) While being "Turned" is a condition listed in the DMG, being "Rebuked" or "Commanded" is not. This doesn't necessarily mean anything except that "Rebuked" and "Commanded" are technically not "Conditions." Just FYI?

5) If you read the description of the rod you are talking about, you will notice that it doesn't say that it allows YOU to command/rebuke extra HD of undead. It affects the UNDEAD such that they are treated as having 4 fewer HD for the purpose of your rebuking/commanding. And, because it says they are treated as such while you are holding the rod, I would conclude that no, you can't drop the rod and maintain its effects.

6) If a cleric that turns undead does so and then gets too close to them, the effect is broken. This suggests to me if that at any point while you are turning/rebuking/commanding undead you fail to meet the criteria to do so, then the effect is broken.

Anyway. I'm not sure, but my answer would lean towards 'no.'

[JaronK]

Quick question about rebuking. If I give a lvl 6 character a rod of defiance and had him control 9 human skeletons. Then had him drop the rod of defiance, would the undead remain under his control?

Thank you for the help.

This is never specifically defined in the rules either way, but static rebuking is the default used by all the designers as evidenced in the abilities they made. That is to say, you check what the Turn Resistance of the creature is when you rebuke it, and then that's how much it takes out of your Rebuke pool... alterations to Turn Resistance later have no effect. As opposed to dynamic rebuking, where you constantly check the Turn Resistance and if it goes up you lose control.

The thing is, in every place where it matters, static is obviously assumed. If you had dynamic rebuking, then using Bolster Undead would cause you to lose control of the minions you just bolstered. The Necromantic Presence feat would cause you to lose control of your own minions too. That can't be right.

As such, you check only when you first rebuke the creature. This means a Dread Necromancer 9 with a Rod of Defiance and a Lyre of the Restful Soul (perhaps on a nearby ally) could control up to 9 9HD undead, and putting away the Rod and Lyre would not cause any problems. Likewise, he could rebuke a single 12 HD undead this way, then put away the Turn Undead reducers.

Furthermore, you could give an undead creature Holy arrows to lower its HD after you control it, then re-rebuke it at 1 HD to save space. This makes Rebuke Undead an actually useful mechanic... without this, you really won't get anything of note since undead at half your level are pathetic.

JaronK

[begooler]

This is never specifically defined in the rules either way, but static rebuking is the default used by all the designers as evidenced in the abilities they made.

Nifty. Good to know. Do you know of any examples of said abilities aside from what you already mentioned? It would be great for future reference.

[JaronK]

Nifty. Good to know. Do you know of any examples of said abilities aside from what you already mentioned? It would be great for future reference.

Not really. They never actually give an example where turn resistance (or HD) changes... but there's no way Bolster Undead or Necromantic Presence are supposed to make you lose your undead.

JaronK

[ericgrau]

Commanded
A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.

It looks like the number of undead is checked continuously ("at any one time") so if your (effective) level changes the number commanded likewise immediately changes.