Advice for a Monk/Warlock? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Sir_Chivalry

2011-07-20, 11:00 AM

RAW, you can't have one.
Warlocks have to be Chaotic, Monks have to be Lawful.

Lawful Evil qualifies, as well as the fact that Monks don't lose any abilities from being non-lawful, only the ability to take more levels. Plus there is a chaotic monk variant if you really can't accept the previous two as legitimate options.

Don't do it!

Well that's extremely helpful dex.:smallannoyed:

dextercorvia

2011-07-20, 11:06 AM

If you must, then Monk should be a 1-2 level dip. The rest should be Warlock. But, honestly, with Eldritch claws, you aren't getting that much from Monk.

Luca

2011-07-20, 11:24 AM

Eldritch claws and the beast strike feat to add your claw damage to your unarmed strikes. Since I believe the claws include your unarmed damage in their total damage this means you get a doubled unarmed strike + eldritch blast damage.

Take say, 2 levels of monk for all the snazzyness they give as a two level class then go straight warlock. Monk's belt will have you covered for 5 levels of warlock without any real losses, what level are you/do you think you will reach?

Psyren

2011-07-20, 12:00 PM

Hm. Does Warlock qualify for Enlightened Fist?

Indeed they do. You'll have trouble getting Asetic Mage though, and not as much benefit for doing so.

Big Fau

2011-07-20, 12:04 PM

Chaotic or Evil technically. So it's still viable. Lawful Evil Monk Warlock. Not sure how I could make it work though, best of luck.

Technically, there's nothing stopping a Warlock from being TN, NG, LN, or LG. That line in CArc isn't enforced by any penalties, and WotC has set a precedent for a LG Warlock in CM.

CaeruliusVentus

2011-07-20, 12:41 PM

Enlightened fist is do able as written, but you have to get a DM to approve that the +1 caster per level means eldritch blast and invocations increase. If you are using the PHB monk, then the combination of Flee the Scene and the Sun School feat lets you teleport around the battlefield while attacking once at the end of the teleport.

A number of the abilities in the class are useless unless the DM will allow them, but there is enough synergy to make the combination interesting. A monk/warlock will never be the most powerful character, but they can certainly make the battlefield interesting.

Edit: thanks Psyren, I missed that.

Psyren

2011-07-20, 12:57 PM

Enlightened fist is do able as written, but you have to get a DM to approve that the +1 caster per level means eldritch blast and invocations increase.

That's not a "DM ruling"; that's RAW. From Complete Arcane pg. 18:

Warlocks and Prestige Classes

Warlocks benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that have “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class” or “+1 level of existing spellcasting class” as a level advancement benefit. A warlock taking levels in such a prestige class does not gain any of his class abilities, but he does gain an increased caster level when using his invocations and increased damage with his eldritch blast. Levels of prestige classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the warlock’s level to determine his eldritch blast damage (treat his combined caster level as his warlock class level when looking at Table 1–1: The Warlock to determine eldritch blast damage) and his eldritch blast caster level (half his total caster level from his warlock levels and his levels in the prestige class that grant him an increased spellcasting level). A warlock also gains new invocations known at these prestige class levels as though he had gained a level in the warlock class.

Emphasis mine. The DM would need to rule to remove that, not to grant it.

FMArthur

2011-07-20, 01:00 PM

If you're only interested in unarmed damage out of monk for Beast Strike, you might want to take Superior Unarmed Strike instead. This gives you a Small creature's monk progression. You'll lose fewer Warlock levels and get better damage as a result.

Divide by Zero

2011-07-20, 01:06 PM

FMArthur

2011-07-20, 01:16 PM

How about Monk/Warlock/Telflammar Shadowlord? Dimension Door>full attack is always nice.

Is there any way to get Eldritch Glaive to count as a special monk weapon? That could be interesting with FoB.

Eldritch Glaive is barely a weapon at all and is not normal full attack anyway. It's really only a weapon in the same way a weaponlike spell is. Eldritch Claws gives you real natural weapons that you can tack onto any unarmed strikes with the Beast Strike feat.

dextercorvia

2011-07-20, 01:22 PM

Rei_Jin

2011-07-20, 06:03 PM

A Monk/Warlock can be a lot of fun, especially if you pick up the Sun School Tactical Feat from Complete Warrior and go into Enlightened Fist. Doing this will allow you to Dimension Door (assuming you picked Flee the Scene as one of your Lesser Invocations) and then attack at the end of it, which can be a lot of fun.

I nicknamed that build the "Nightcrawler", for obvious reasons.

Others have already provided additional Opt-fu, but for simplicity sake, sometimes the path of least resistance is good.

Prime32

2011-07-20, 06:06 PM

I nicknamed that build the "Nightcrawler", for obvious reasons.The more typical Nightcrawler build can get a full attack every time he teleports via one of two PrCs (one of them, Telflammar Shadowlord, was mentioned), and has multiple teleportation abilities which use different actions so he can bamf all over the place within a round.

Rei_Jin

2011-07-20, 06:15 PM

I'm not arguing that there aren't better ways to do it, but I personally favour the path of least resistance, because the more classes/prestige classes and the more books I use, the more difficult a character becomes to put together and maintain.

Also, the Telflammer Shadowlord is from a Campaign specific book, and not all DMs will allow you to use it for that reason. Far more DMs allow the Complete series of books, and so just because something is a better option does not mean you can necessarily use it.

Groverfield

2011-07-20, 07:28 PM

RAW Enlightened Fist does this as it's supposed to. +1 Arcane Caster Level does improve warlock blast and invocations, as they didn't have the terminology "+1 invocation using class" in CArc and specifically say that it works in the warlock class section or the introduction to PrCs in CArc. You don't need to take class levels outside of Monk/Warlock either due to "Spell-like abilities caster level 3" which means monk2/warlock3. Unfortunately, the class features "Arcane Fist", "Arcane Rejuvenation," and "Hold Ray" don't work with warlock abilities, you should ask your DM if he'll give you the Warlocks fiendish resilience in place of Arcane Rejuvenation as to give you the limited healing that the class wants you to have, and "Arcane Fist" and "Hold Ray" work with Eldritch Blast, as it's more or less a useless class feature traded out for the least invocation "Hideous Blow"

Andion Isurand

2011-07-20, 07:40 PM

You could add Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium) instead of Monk, in tandum with Warlock, given that Battle Dancer adds Charisma to unarmored AC at level one and has a high BAB. You still get unarmed strike damage, but without the flurry.

Any chaotic alignment would do in this case.

Tvtyrant

2011-07-20, 08:27 PM

The more typical Nightcrawler build can get a full attack every time he teleports via one of two PrCs (one of them, Telflammar Shadowlord, was mentioned), and has multiple teleportation abilities which use different actions so he can bamf all over the place within a round.

Totemist with Shedu Crown and Blink Shirt and Landshark Boots? Are there reasonable ways to do it otherwise?

And Shadowcaster, but that really doesn't have the melee to make it matter.

Flickerdart

2011-07-20, 08:28 PM

Horizon Walker, but that takes some time to come online.

Tvtyrant

2011-07-20, 08:34 PM

Horizon Walker, but that takes some time to come online.

Quickened SLA? That is a rather limited approach... Though DD as an SLA is pretty good.

dextercorvia

2011-07-20, 09:01 PM

Totemist with Shedu Crown and Blink Shirt and Landshark Boots? Are there reasonable ways to do it otherwise?

And Shadowcaster, but that really doesn't have the melee to make it matter.

Quickened SLA? That is a rather limited approach... Though DD as an SLA is pretty good.

Hidden Talent: Dimension Hop gets you a swift action teleport. There is a trick to get several more PP out of a single feat. I think it might be a Touchstone location. I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: It is the Earth Node magical location in CPsi. It is worth 4500gp.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-07-21, 12:54 AM

Why Monk when you can Swordsage?

Lord.Sorasen

2011-07-21, 01:49 AM

Why Monk when you can Swordsage?

Real optimizers use monk? :p

Psyren

2011-07-21, 07:54 AM

Why Monk when you can Swordsage?

Tashalatora for one.

Real optimizers use monk? :p

Schwing!

FMArthur

2011-07-21, 08:30 AM

Because of the fact that Enlightened Fist's class features don't work without spells, you're actually better off using Superior Unarmed Strike and keeping your full warlock Eldritch Blast progression than using Enlightened Fist levels. Warlock progression is just worth more damage with Beast Strike + Eldritch Claws, and worth much more damage with Hellfire Warlock levels.

Enlightened Fist will only get you up to Medium Monk 15 by the time it finishes at ECL 15, with a Monk's Belt included. Superior Unarmed Strike - which can't use a Monk's Belt - will be at Small Monk 15 at that level (1d10 vs 2d6...) and continues on to Small Monk 20. It's a marginal difference. The use of INA widens the gap slightly, but not enough.

I wouldn't bother with Enlightened Fist or monk levels at all in an unarmed strike Warlock build.

CaeruliusVentus

2011-07-21, 10:25 AM

Do the builds that use multiple teleports in the same round get past the dimension door restriction of no more actions that round?

dextercorvia

2011-07-21, 10:38 AM

Do the builds that use multiple teleports in the same round get past the dimension door restriction of no more actions that round?

So long as they use any ability with that text last.

GodGoblin

2011-07-21, 10:44 AM

A +1 for swordsage here too, not trying to do the hurrdurr ToB is best argument but you get the unarmed progression to add to the claws and with a stance like Assasins stance combined with eldritch blast its adds a few more D6.

Also go Hellfire warlock, channel a horrendous amount of EB damage with the stance sneak attack and extra unarmed damage. I was planning this for a Gestalt build, gets a bit horrendous :smallbiggrin:

Prime32

2011-07-21, 11:16 AM

Re: Eldritch Claws + Fell Flight

A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage.

See also: Improved Rapidstrike, Pounce

GodGoblin

2011-07-21, 11:32 AM

^ I don think Eldritch claws are an actual Claw attack however.

Prime32

2011-07-21, 11:36 AM

^ I don think Eldritch claws are an actual Claw attack however.They are .

While your eldritch claws exist you may make up to two claw attacks as natural weapons. You are automatically proficient with your eldritch claws.

GodGoblin

2011-07-21, 11:43 AM

Ahh I stand corrected, they just got even more awesome!

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-07-21, 12:29 PM

Tashalatora for one. Which is only counter-productive if you want enough levels in Warlock to be worth bothering with.

Schwing!

Actually, real men use CW Samurai. Monks are old-hat. But Swordsages are simply more powerful, even then.

Ahh I stand corrected, they just got even more awesome!

Too bad it's Dragon Mag, and 90%+ of all GM's don't allow it.

Sir_Chivalry

2011-07-21, 10:01 PM

Too bad it's Dragon Mag, and 90%+ of all GM's don't allow it.

90+% of statistics are made up too:smalltongue:

Just because you and many of the DMs on this site don't use Dragon doesn't mean a forbidding majority don't. I'll allow, you are probably in the majority, but really, can't the monk just have flavourful stuff? Is Beast Strike really that offensive to people?

Psyren

2011-07-21, 10:05 PM

Which is only counter-productive if you want enough levels in Warlock to be worth bothering with.

I was being general, actually.

Actually, real men use CW Samurai. Monks are old-hat. But Swordsages are simply more powerful, even then.

Did my "Schwing" ruffle your feathers? I didn't mean to, I just thought it was funny.

Cieyrin

2011-07-22, 09:06 AM

Since we're talking melee warlocks anyways, I may as well point towards a fairly thorough handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159708&page=5) on the subject. Shinken can't update it any more but it has a good bit of info on how to go about it, with sample builds and resources a plenty.

I should also point out that still banning Dragon at this point seems kinda silly at this point, as where else are we to get official material? WotC has gone their own way and Pathfinder doesn't have much in the way of invokers at the moment, so it stands to reason to harvest from the forbidden fruits. Balance may swing wildly between authors but that doesn't mean there aren't gems among the muck, much like Complete Psionic is a similar situation.