Vorpal Optimization

[Graha013]

In our ECL 15 campaign, we have a new player with start up cash that the DM is letting us assist in re-equipping him. He showed up with standard gear because he didn't know better, and now that we've straightened out his class and feats, we need to work on his weapon.

I'm kind of interested in seeing if there is a way to optimize vorpal enhancements to a throwing axe or other slashing throwable to give him something awesome/fun to stick with it. We haven't faced numerous undead, no oozes, and no constructs thus far, and I've got a +5 spear with acid burst that I was going to give him if we run into anything else that wouldn't be touched by a vorpal throwing axe.

So thoughts are: (magical enchantments)
vorpal +5 - base focus of the enchantments

returning +1 - if he throws it

speed+3 - for that extra attack if he melee's with it instead

wand chamber - with wand of Surge of Fortune (CChamp) - treats next roll as a natural 20 - which would qualify him for the vorpal attempt

spell per day - something where he can generate surge of fortune or another spell that grants him an auto natural 20 added*


Other options are to simply increase the number of attacks he gets with the weapon, via feat or class ability (twf, or the complete scoundrel feat 'better lucky than good' which lets him drop a natural 1 and turn it into a natural 20, for instance).

* I'm not good with adding spell abilities to weapons, so if anyone could help me out with what adding that spell to his weapon either permenantly or s/pd would be awesome.


Thoughts welcome! He is primarily a scout build and his other gear is based around increasing his base speed - he just needs to be able to do something neat when he hits.


EDIT: Note, definitely not trying to give him a vorpal returning speedy acid burst throwing axe kinda deal. The best use and best cost is what I'm looking for - although I think vorpal + returning + spells per day or spell effect is gonna be the best route for this particular use/weapon.

[Darrin]

I'm kind of interested in seeing if there is a way to optimize vorpal enhancements to a throwing axe or other slashing throwable to give him something awesome/fun to stick with it.

Not really enhancements, but the best way to optimize rolling a 20:

Martial Study or the Novice Shadow Hands item to pick up the Shadow Blade Technique maneuver: roll 2d20 for your attack, pick which result to use.

Victors Luck, Fortuitous Strike, and Better Lucky Than Good feats. The last one lets you treat a natural "1" as a natural "20", doubling your chances to trigger a Vorpal weapon.

[Graha013]

Not really enhancements, but the best way to optimize rolling a 20:

Martial Study or the Novice Shadow Hands item to pick up the Shadow Blade Technique maneuver: roll 2d20 for your attack, pick which result to use.

Victors Luck, Fortuitous Strike, and Better Lucky Than Good feats. The last one lets you treat a natural "1" as a natural "20", doubling your chances to trigger a Vorpal weapon.

I actually started looking at vorpal feats and such - optimizing seems to only have the route of just making more attacks in a round. Or magical intervention:


What would be the cost of having a continuous magic effect of surge of fortune added to a weapon?

Or even just 3/day?

[Keld Denar]

Continuous Surge of Fortune? Wouldn't that be like...taking 20 on attack rolls without the time? Whats the point in even playing if all of your rolls are automatically 20s?

[aquaticrna]

this sounds like it would be very much like having use activated true strike... saw the calculation for that and it came out to being somewhere in the 400k range... that or you could become a deity =P auto crits for free!

[Graha013]

Continuous Surge of Fortune? Wouldn't that be like...taking 20 on attack rolls without the time? Whats the point in even playing if all of your rolls are automatically 20s?

I'm just..you know...exploring possibilities :)

But 3/day would be a decent inbetween I think.

[Nerdynick]

As a quick aside, if you're going to go with a throwing weapon and you're giving it the returning enchantment, you might want to look into also getting the throwing enchantment and upgrading to a Dwarven Waraxe. Slight damage boost, if anything. Of course, by the time you're approaching 15th level, your damage probably won't be coming from what type of weapon you're wielding....

A quick aside (I don't want to hijack the thread), can you two-handed throw a weapon for increased strength to damage?

[Ernir]

wand chamber - with wand of Surge of Fortune (CChamp) - treats next roll as a natural 20 - which would qualify him for the vorpal attempt
Surge of Fortune is 5th level, you're not fitting it into a wand without some slight shenanigans.

Continuous Surge of Fortune? Wouldn't that be like...taking 20 on attack rolls without the time? Whats the point in even playing if all of your rolls are automatically 20s?
Continuous Surge of Fortune would grant a +2 luck bonus on all kinds of stuff, but not give out free 20s. The nat-20 thing only happens when the spell is discharged, which wouldn't happen on a continuous item.

[noparlpf]

this sounds like it would be very much like having use activated true strike... saw the calculation for that and it came out to being somewhere in the 400k range... that or you could become a deity =P auto crits for free!

Do you know where you found that? Or how to recalculate it? (I'm not familiar with pricing custom items.) Because at levels above 18 or so that's potentially viable...


A quick aside (I don't want to hijack the thread), can you two-handed throw a weapon for increased strength to damage?

You should be able to. Aren't there throwing sports where they hold something in both hands to throw it?

Oh yeah, and the throwing and returning option doesn't work if he goes with speed, because you need at least a +1 enhancement bonus. It can't have all +10 be special abilities.

[Ashram]

Continuous would also be ridiculously expensive with core prices and no price modifiers.

5 (spell level) x 9 (caster level) x 2,000 = 45,000

45,000 x 4 (SoF is rounds per level, so continuous is x4) = 180,000

I'd say make it use activated at will rather than continuous. That way you can have it as much as you want and still discharge it to get the effect.

[noparlpf]

Continuous would also be ridiculously expensive with core prices and no price modifiers.

5 (spell level) x 9 (caster level) x 2,000 = 45,000

45,000 x 4 (SoF is rounds per level, so continuous is x4) = 180,000

I'd say make it use activated at will rather than continuous. That way you can have it as much as you want and still discharge it to get the effect.

What's the price for use activated at will? And does that depend on what kind of action it takes to activate?

[Kumori]

What's the price for use activated at will? And does that depend on what kind of action it takes to activate?

Use activated uses the same price as continuous. I think it's a standard action to activate, but I'm double checking.

[noparlpf]

Well, that's only 180k. That's not too bad. I might try it if a DM let me.

[Kumori]

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#useActivated):

Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use activation is not an action at all.

So it can be a standard action, or as part of another action. As part of an attack looks pretty good...

[Ashram]

Use activated uses the same price as continuous. I think it's a standard action to activate, but I'm double checking.

No it doesn't. Use activated doesn't include the price multiplier based on the type of duration of the spell.

[Graha013]

So is there a way to add it to his weapon as a per/day spell effect and only adding the 'nat 20' effect part of it? What would a 1/day cost be on it?

[Telonius]

Oh yeah, and the throwing and returning option doesn't work if he goes with speed, because you need at least a +1 enhancement bonus. It can't have all +10 be special abilities.

A Greater Crystal of Return (MiC) can fix that.

[Graha013]

Continuous Surge of Fortune? Wouldn't that be like...taking 20 on attack rolls without the time? Whats the point in even playing if all of your rolls are automatically 20s?

Part of this is just looking at rules, the other is finding out what would be unique to get away with.. From the conversations in this thread, I've had the following thoughts.

1. 1,2 or 3/day of Surge of Fortune from a weapon would be neat - and doesn't guarantee a crit, just gives an autohit.

2. What about weapons/enchantments that grant feats? How does that work? Like if instead of Surge of Fortune I wanted to get a weapon that granted 'Better lucky than good' feat from complete scoundrel?

3. Squirrels.

4. I'm not wanting the guy to lose all focus on making the right tactical decision - sometimes hitting is not the answer - but having him be able to, at the roll of a dice, be the 'hero' - thats a pretty big push for a new player to stay involved. Holy sh*t I just cut off that guys head - and not because the DM used that particular bit of flair to describe your strike - is pretty awesome for a newbie.

5. Really though - optimizing: Vorpal's optimization is a lot more about more chances to (crit) hit than it is in actually taking away a chance not to crit. Does that make sense? It's not about having free surge of fortune, but increasing the number of times a natural 20 can be rolled. This seems to be done only by feats (surge of fortune and luck based feats) and by increased number of attacks per rounds. I guess this could be done by a number of measures, anything from polymorphing, taking two weapon fighting, being hasted, and high BAB.

6. And this: LC70LE732U . Droooooool.


The questions I've got left for helping this guy out on making something where he can, maybe 10-20% of the time do something this awesome:

1. How much would it cost to 1/day surge of fortune?
2. How much would it cost to add a feat use/granted to a weapon
3. What +number of attack options do I have?

[aquaticrna]

Do you know where you found that? Or how to recalculate it? (I'm not familiar with pricing custom items.) Because at levels above 18 or so that's potentially viable...

here is the article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a

[noparlpf]

4. I'm not wanting the guy to lose all focus on making the right tactical decision - sometimes hitting is not the answer - but having him be able to, at the roll of a dice, be the 'hero' - thats a pretty big push for a new player to stay involved. Holy sh*t I just cut off that guys head - and not because the DM used that particular bit of flair to describe your strike - is pretty awesome for a newbie.

5. Really though - optimizing: Vorpal's optimization is a lot more about more chances to (crit) hit than it is in actually taking away a chance not to crit. Does that make sense? It's not about having free surge of fortune, but increasing the number of times a natural 20 can be rolled. This seems to be done only by feats (surge of fortune and luck based feats) and by increased number of attacks per rounds. I guess this could be done by a number of measures, anything from polymorphing, taking two weapon fighting, being hasted, and high BAB.

6. And this: LC70LE732U . Droooooool.


The questions I've got left for helping this guy out on making something where he can, maybe 10-20% of the time do something this awesome:

1. How much would it cost to 1/day surge of fortune?
2. How much would it cost to add a feat use/granted to a weapon
3. What +number of attack options do I have?

For extra attacks per round, two-weapon fighting helps with that (at the expense of accuracy, to a degree). The Speed weapon quality also helps, or getting someone to use Haste (doesn't stack with Speed). I'm pretty sure high-level fighters can take Melee Weapon Master and Slashing Flurry to get an additional attack with each hand per round, again at the expense of accuracy, but I can't remember level/feat prereqs. Maybe if you have extra arms (Girallon's Blessing, for example, can be made permanent by Savage Species rules, although I tend to advise against using that book because it's kind of broken) and take Multiweapon Fighting you can continue to increase attacks/round.

I agree, getting something like that is a good way to get a new player interested in the game, as opposed to a bad build (or DM), which can make it harder to get hooked.

What exactly is #6 about?

[Nerdynick]

Rules for custom magic items are on page 285 of the DMG (or at least thats the one I've always looked at :/ )

I'm not familiar with Surge of Fortune, but I know True Strike wouldn't grant instant crits because there's a difference between having a +20 bonus and rolling a natural 20.

[Metahuman1]

1: Put a trap on the weapon.

2: Make the trap a reverse presser trigger in the handle. (Reverse: Instead of activating when presser is applied, like when you pick it up, it's activated when presser is removed, like when you let go as part of throwing it.)

3: Make it an auto resetting trap.

4:Make the traps effect be that it discharges a spell when triggered.

5: Make the spell Surge of Fortune.

6: Profit by enjoying the endless one hit kills up until the DM makes the entire campaign setting immune to Vorpal.

[Graha013]

1: Put a trap on the weapon.

2: Make the trap a reverse presser trigger in the handle. (Reverse: Instead of activating when presser is applied, like when you pick it up, it's activated when presser is removed, like when you let go as part of throwing it.)

3: Make it an auto resetting trap.

4:Make the traps effect be that it discharges a spell when triggered.

5: Make the spell Surge of Fortune.

6: Profit by enjoying the endless one hit kills up until the DM makes the entire campaign setting immune to Vorpal.

That's so dirty/I love it. Can you help me with any of that creation? (Never played a character with/knowledge of trapmaking. I would love to do that.

[Graha013]

What exactly is #6 about?

This.. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=LC70LE732U)


droooool. My tabletop upgrades may have to wait..

[noparlpf]

This.. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=LC70LE732U)


droooool. My tabletop upgrades may have to wait..

I did google it, so no that wasn't so hard. I just wasn't sure whether you did in fact mean the TV that came up.
That's a neat site.

Anyway.

SURGE OF FORTUNE
Transmutation
Level: Cleric 5
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level or until discharged
The power of your deity flows through you, guiding your movements and honing your instincts.
Upon casting this spell, you gain a +2 luck bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and spell penetration checks, as well as to Armor Class.
At any point before the spell expires, you can channel its remaining power into a single instant of perfect fortune as an immediate action. The result of the next attack roll, saving throw, skill check, ability check, or spell penetration check you attempt is treated as a natural 20, as long as it occurs within 1 round of the time you invoked this power. (If you use it for an attack roll, you must still roll to confirm the critical hit normally.) Using this option instantly ends the spell.

Complete Champion pages 128-129.

So that's not going to make a Vorpal weapon instantly kill anything. You still need to roll a 20 to confirm. It just increases the chance from 1/400 to 1/20. (Am I multiplying the chances properly? Statistics isn't something I've ever studied.)

[Graha013]

So that's not going to make a Vorpal weapon instantly kill anything. You still need to roll a 20 to confirm.

Yeah, the TV is something that came up in my head during the thread. I was just listing thoughts. Funny you didn't even ask about squirrels..



And my understanding on the rules for Vorpal are as such:

1. Only activates on a natural 20 roll, so a weapon with a 19-20 crit range only makes a chance at vorpalizationating if the 20 is rolled.

2. You only have to confirm the strike (like a crit), not roll a second natural 20, to make it happen.
From the D20srd:
Vorpal

This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.)


edit: So, Surge of Fortune on a weapon x/day would give it the chance to make the next blow vorpal. Granted, yes, abuseable and overpowerful, but there are a lot of things immune to it, and also the chance to miss confirming and just hit for double damage. Coupling it with the feat Better Lucky Than Good would be kind of cool too

[noparlpf]

So that's not going to make a Vorpal weapon instantly kill anything. You still need to roll a 20 to confirm.
Yeah, the TV is something that came up in my head during the thread. I was just listing thoughts. Funny you didn't even ask about squirrels..



And my understanding on the rules for Vorpal are as such:

1. Only activates on a natural 20 roll, so a weapon with a 19-20 crit range only makes a chance at vorpalizationating if the 20 is rolled.

2. You only have to confirm the strike (like a crit), not roll a second natural 20, to make it happen.
From the D20srd:
Vorpal

This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.)

Yeah, my bad. I just rechecked the Vorpal entry because I was wondering whether my statement was right. (I was hoping I could get back to edit it before someone replied.) It is just confirming the critical, it's not two nat 20s in a row. So having Surge of Fortune does make a Vorpal weapon more doable. Get Power Critical (chosen weapon) (+4 to confirm). I think there might be a weapon property that gives another +4, not sure if it'll stack considering Keen and Imp. Critical don't. There might also be other wearable magic items to boost crit confirmation.

I think I might try to abuse this in the fall when I get back to school. Make a melee cleric build with Divine Metamagic/Quicken Spell, maybe Easy Metamagic (Quicken) if it fits in just to make things even sillier. Because if I do it all by RAW, I don't have to try to get a crazy homebrew item like that past the DM.

[Graha013]

Well, the idea has kind of turned from optimizing vorpal for this guys weapons to me making a critically optimized build based on feats and, eventually, vorpal. That may be for another thread though.

What I really need help with though is the mechanics and cost on adding surge of fortune as a per day triggered spell for the weapon (although that trap idea is kinda funny), and (Seperately) the mechanics and cost on a weapon that could add a feat to a weapon.

I may have to look at a thread with one of the builder types to see if they can help me with the crit op build though.

[noparlpf]

Well, the idea has kind of turned from optimizing vorpal for this guys weapons to me making a critically optimized build based on feats and, eventually, vorpal. That may be for another thread though.

What I really need help with though is the mechanics and cost on adding surge of fortune as a per day triggered spell for the weapon (although that trap idea is kinda funny), and (Seperately) the mechanics and cost on a weapon that could add a feat to a weapon.

I may have to look at a thread with one of the builder types to see if they can help me with the crit op build though.

Using the trap rules on weapons has been suggested before. A stick with a self-resetting trap that activates a spell with some command could end up being cheaper than the same wand, or something like that. I didn't read it very closely.

I'm not familiar with the mechanics for adding spells to items, but I just checked. Try around page 284 of the DMG.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I know how to always get natural 20s!

Step 1. Get Iron Heart Surge.

Step 2. Use Iron Heart Surge to end the condition "doesn't always roll a natural 20".

Step 3. ????

Step 4. Profit!

[noparlpf]

I know how to always get natural 20s!

Step 1. Get Iron Heart Surge.

Step 2. Use Iron Heart Surge to end the condition "doesn't always roll a natural 20".

Step 3. ????

Step 4. Profit!

I think that's been tried before. There was something about not being able to remove the condition of the player getting smacked upside the head.

[Graha013]

Using the trap rules on weapons has been suggested before. A stick with a self-resetting trap that activates a spell with some command could end up being cheaper than the same wand, or something like that. I didn't read it very closely.

I'm not familiar with the mechanics for adding spells to items, but I just checked. Try around page 284 of the DMG.

Sooo, math to follow:

Spell lvl x Caster lvl x 2000gp x /round durational spell...
5x9x2000x4 = 360,000.

Spell use limitation modifier: divide price by (5 divided by uses per day)
360,000/ (5) 1/day = 72k
360,000/ (2.5) 2/day = 144k
360,000/ (1.67) 3/day = ~215,569

etc. and so on.

Don't see anything about items that add feats, but I swear i've seen items and/or rules. For simplicity and cost, that 1/day price addition seems reasonable.

[noparlpf]

Sooo, math to follow:

Spell lvl x Caster lvl x 2000gp x /round durational spell...
5x9x2000x4 = 360,000.

Spell use limitation modifier: divide price by (5 divided by uses per day)
360,000/ (5) 1/day = 72k
360,000/ (2.5) 2/day = 144k
360,000/ (1.67) 3/day = ~215,569

etc. and so on.

Don't see anything about items that add feats, but I swear i've seen items and/or rules. For simplicity and cost, that 1/day price addition seems reasonable.

Sources:

Continuous/Use activated: SLxClx2.000 GP.
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

Dungeon Master's Guide page 285.

PERSISTENT SPELL [METAMAGIC]
You can make a spell last all day.
Prerequisite: Extend Spell.
Benefi t: Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You don’t need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells (such as detect magic or detect thoughts) for you to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the subject detected, but gaining additional information requires concentration as normal. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Complete Arcane page 81.

SURGE OF FORTUNE
Transmutation
Level: Cleric 5
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level or until discharged
The power of your deity flows through you, guiding your movements and honing your instincts.
Upon casting this spell, you gain a +2 luck bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and spell penetration checks, as well as to Armor Class.
At any point before the spell expires, you can channel its remaining power into a single instant of perfect fortune as an immediate action. The result of the next attack roll, saving throw, skill check, ability check, or spell penetration check you attempt is treated as a natural 20, as long as it occurs within 1 round of the time you invoked this power. (If you use it for an attack roll, you must still roll to confirm the critical hit normally.) Using this option instantly ends the spell.

Complete Champion pages 128-129.

So if you want a continuous Surge of Fortune item, and you use Persistent Spell during the creation, the cost is only 99.000 GP.
(SLxCLx2.000)/2 (divided by two because it lasts 24 hours)
(11x9x2.000)/2=99.000 GP.
Of course, you need to be epic to do that.
Better yet, with Easy Metamagic (Persistent Spell), the cost is only 90.000 GP.
(10x9x2.000)/2=90.000 GP.
And with that epic feat that reduces metamagic costs, it goes down to 81.000 GP.

That's a lot less than 360.000 GP, right?
:smallbiggrin:

[Graha013]

Sources:

Continuous/Use activated: SLxClx2.000 GP.
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

Dungeon Master's Guide page 285.

PERSISTENT SPELL [METAMAGIC]
You can make a spell last all day.
Prerequisite: Extend Spell.
Benefi t: Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You don’t need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells (such as detect magic or detect thoughts) for you to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the subject detected, but gaining additional information requires concentration as normal. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Complete Arcane page 81.

SURGE OF FORTUNE
Transmutation
Level: Cleric 5
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level or until discharged
The power of your deity flows through you, guiding your movements and honing your instincts.
Upon casting this spell, you gain a +2 luck bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and spell penetration checks, as well as to Armor Class.
At any point before the spell expires, you can channel its remaining power into a single instant of perfect fortune as an immediate action. The result of the next attack roll, saving throw, skill check, ability check, or spell penetration check you attempt is treated as a natural 20, as long as it occurs within 1 round of the time you invoked this power. (If you use it for an attack roll, you must still roll to confirm the critical hit normally.) Using this option instantly ends the spell.

Complete Champion pages 128-129.

So if you want a continuous Surge of Fortune item, and you use Persistent Spell during the creation, the cost is only 99.000 GP.
(SLxCLx2.000)/2 (divided by two because it lasts 24 hours)
(11x9x2.000)/2=99.000 GP.
Of course, you need to be epic to do that.
Better yet, with Easy Metamagic (Persistent Spell), the cost is only 90.000 GP.
(10x9x2.000)/2=90.000 GP.
And with that epic feat that reduces metamagic costs, it goes down to 81.000 GP.

That's a lot less than 360.000 GP, right?
:smallbiggrin:

ha, nice. Though I'm not sure that's exactly the way it should be...wouldn't ti be the cost of both spells?

[noparlpf]

ha, nice. Though I'm not sure that's exactly the way it should be...wouldn't it be the cost of both spells?

Which both spells? The only spell involved is Surge of Fortune. Persistent Spell is metamagic, which can be used in the process of crafting items. Easy Metamagic reduces the level increase of Persistent spell to +5, or a 10th level spell slot. At that point it has a duration of 24 hours, so the base price is halved for a continuous or use-activated item.
If Arcane Thesis worked on divine spells, you could reduce it to a 9th level spell slot and be able to do this as early as 17th level.

[Graha013]

Which both spells? The only spell involved is Surge of Fortune. Persistent Spell is metamagic, which can be used in the process of crafting items. Easy Metamagic reduces the level increase of Persistent spell to +5, or a 10th level spell slot. At that point it has a duration of 24 hours, so the base price is halved for a continuous or use-activated item.
If Arcane Thesis worked on divine spells, you could reduce it to a 9th level spell slot and be able to do this as early as 17th level.


Ah gotcha, I was thinking 'permenancy' spell, not persistent mm

[noparlpf]

Do you know of a way for a cheesy cleric/wizard/something to get a divine spell as an arcane spell? Because I saw a way for a divine caster to get an arcane spell (albeit a low-level arcane spell).

EDIT:
WAIT. I was just asleep in bed (early, whoa) and woke up because this occurred to me. I did the CL wrong on those calculations. Minimum CL isn't for Surge of Fortune, but for Persisted Surge of Fortune. I'll edit that and repost here.

Sources:

Continuous/Use activated: SLxClx2.000 GP.
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

Dungeon Master's Guide page 285.

PERSISTENT SPELL [METAMAGIC]
You can make a spell last all day.
Prerequisite: Extend Spell.
Benefi t: Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You don’t need to maintain concentration on persistent detect spells (such as detect magic or detect thoughts) for you to be aware of the mere presence or absence of the subject detected, but gaining additional information requires concentration as normal. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Complete Arcane page 81.

SURGE OF FORTUNE
Transmutation
Level: Cleric 5
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level or until discharged
The power of your deity flows through you, guiding your movements and honing your instincts.
Upon casting this spell, you gain a +2 luck bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and spell penetration checks, as well as to Armor Class.
At any point before the spell expires, you can channel its remaining power into a single instant of perfect fortune as an immediate action. The result of the next attack roll, saving throw, skill check, ability check, or spell penetration check you attempt is treated as a natural 20, as long as it occurs within 1 round of the time you invoked this power. (If you use it for an attack roll, you must still roll to confirm the critical hit normally.) Using this option instantly ends the spell.

Complete Champion pages 128-129.

So if you want a continuous or use-activated Surge of Fortune item, and you use Persistent Spell during the creation, the cost is only 231.000 GP.
(SLxCLx2.000)/2 (divided by two because it lasts 24 hours)
(11x21x2.000)/2=231.000 GP.
Of course, you need to be epic to do that.
Better yet, with Easy Metamagic (Persistent Spell), the cost is only 210.000 GP.
(10x21x2.000)/2=210.000 GP.
And with that epic feat that reduces metamagic costs, it goes down to 153.000 GP.
(9x17x2.000)/2=153.000 GP.

(Assuming minimum CL needed for spells of that level; I'm sure there are ways to get 11th level spell slots at 21st level. But for the final option, that's not even necessary due to the reduced costs of metamagic. You still need to be epic to craft it, but since you can reduce the CL of a spell when crafting an item, you can reduce the CL to 17.)

Even with my math fixed, that's still less than half of 360.000 GP. It's really funny how increasing the level requirement of the caster decreases the cost so dramatically. (But I guess as you get more experience, you learn how to craft things more easily and can work in tricks like this.)

Let's make it a wondrous item:
AMULET OF FORTUNE
Price (Item Level): 153.000 gp (23rd)
Body Slot: Throat
Caster Level: 17th
Aura: strong (?); (DC 24) transmutation
Activation: — and swift (command)
Weight: 1 lb.
This item currently lacks decent fluff. I'm tired.
Prized by all warriors, this item grants a continuous +2 luck bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and spell penetration checks, as well as to Armor Class, as the spell Surge of Fortune. Further, as a swift action you can grant yourself the ability to treat the result of the next attack roll, saving throw, skill check, ability check, or spell penetration check you attempt as a natural 20, as long as it occurs within 1 round of the time you invoked this power. (If you use it for an attack roll, you must still roll to confirm the critical hit normally.) This functions as the latter effect of Surge of Fortune.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Easy Metamagic (Persistent Spell), Improved Metamagic [Epic], Surge of Fortune.
Cost to Create: 76.500 gp, 6120 XP, 77 days.
I think that's all right. I chose swift (command) to activate the secondary ability because I don't know how to price it for separate effects coming from the same spell counting as different types of activation. Since "Command-activated" costs CLxSLx1.800 GP and "Continuous/Use-activated" costs CLxSLx2.000 GP (base prices), I think that pricing it with the latter (more expensive) equation (since only one spell is being used) and allowing the secondary effect to be a swift action to activate (rather than an immediate action, but still allowing an attack or similar in the same round, and useable as many times per day as you like, mind you) is fair. (If you want the saving throw option to apply, just activate it during your turn, don't expend it on an attack roll, and it lasts through until your next turn.)

[Groverfield]

Here's a 30 ECL build that I've been looking around at

Lawnmower, the Half-Ogre (Buyoff the LAdj)
Barbarian
Bear Warrior (only need 1)
Exotic Weapon Master (Focusing on Kusuri-gama)
Warshaper
Level 21-30
WarHulk

Feats:
Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave

With two Kusuri-gama on a large creature with the Morphic Reach, and the WarHulk's Massive Swing, you'll be making a full attack on every creature within 20 feet of you. Whenever you cleave, you get an extra attack. Single target, that's ten (with a speed weapon) chances to decapitate. Add in Locked gauntlets so you'll never fumble your weapon on a nat 1. This idea was brought to you by the way WarHulk completely unbalances the game when taken 21-30, gaining EAB instead of it's zero progression BaB

[Andion Isurand]

Secrets of Sarlona on pages 135-137

Look up the Cutting Wheel, its an exotic melee weapon that does slashing and piercing that can also be thrown. Basically a Wind and Fire Wheel ---> http://www.wle.com/media/W044.jpg

[Groverfield]

Not reach though, so it's only everything within 15'

Also note, I looked up the way WarHulk actually works, it just hits everything in range with one attack roll, so that build you only get 10 chances, but when you vorpal 20 something, you decapitate everything within 20'

[Flame of Anor]

Step 1. Get Iron Heart Surge.

Hold it right there pardner.

[koscum]

Sooo, math to follow:
Spell lvl x Caster lvl x 2000gp x /round durational spell...
5x9x2000x4 = 360,000.


The x4 multiplier applies only if you're making it continuous. I believe it was discussed earlier in the thread that you can't get the "call Nat20" this way.

Making it a 3/day would be: 5 (SL) x 9 (CL) x 2,000 gp (Use-activated) x 3 (number of charges) / 5 = 54,000 gp. If you can choose activation type, go for Mental even if it costs more (up to 25% more).

[Tim Proctor]

I know that this thread is dead but I was researching this very topic and wanted to know what people thought about this.

Human
Spirit Shaman (CD) 9 + 6 Psychic Warrior (SRD)
Taking the Spirit Shaman levels to get the spell Surge of Fortune and have it 3 times a day. Also gets the ability to get into Ghost Form so they can get close enough to the target.

Dump all stats into Dex you want a really high initiative.

Feats: 1 for human 6 for level 3 for Warrior
Quicken Spell (PH) , Sudden Empower (MH) , Sudden Extend (MH) , Sudden Maximize (MH) , Sudden Silent (MH) , Sudden Still (MH), Point Blank Shot (PHB), Far Shot (PHB), Psionic Shot (XPH), Fell Shot (XPH).

If GM allows flaws go Pathetic on Int and then get Improved Initiative.

Allows you to cast Surge of Fortune as a Free Action and make Touch Attacks on Ranged Attacks

You buy a +1 Vorpal Throwing Axe (cause a weapon can't have a special ability without an enhancement bonus) 72,000 gp.

Deathstrike Bracers (MIC) 5,000g allows critical strikes against most creatures that are immune to crits 3/day. Vorpal says "This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit)." So the Vorpal ability is a critical hit. Now there isn't a head for some of these creatures but one can assume that a Darth Maul happens (ask your GM).

Guantlets of Throwing (MIC) 2,000 gives the returning ability to your thrown weapons.

That 79,000 out of the 200,000 a level 15 character gets for starting off. I suggest buying more Vorpal Throwing Axes because you have another attack during your full-round attack and you might have to kill two things. Also initiative improving items, to hit items, etc. are very important.

Here is the reality of the issue, he's walking around in a place where he shouldn't be, like where there are Titans.

You get initiative (otherwise you die) you suddenly quicken your Surge of Fortune and throw your Axe from up to 100ft away (yeah 20x5, but its at -10 but its a natural 20), to confirm crit their touch AC 8 your +10bab+dex+1enhancement-range, chances are you confirm and they die, YAY.

If you are playing in a campaign without the cheesy Psychic crap you can do the same with Spirit Shaman 9, Fighter 2, Master Thrower 5 (it doesn't happen until level 16 but you still get it). You just change out the Psionic Shot and Fell Shot for Precise Shot and Weapon Focus (Axe of Kill Everything).

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yeah, my bad. I just rechecked the Vorpal entry because I was wondering whether my statement was right. (I was hoping I could get back to edit it before someone replied.) It is just confirming the critical, it's not two nat 20s in a row. So having Surge of Fortune does make a Vorpal weapon more doable. Get Power Critical (chosen weapon) (+4 to confirm). I think there might be a weapon property that gives another +4, not sure if it'll stack considering Keen and Imp. Critical don't. There might also be other wearable magic items to boost crit confirmation.

I think I might try to abuse this in the fall when I get back to school. Make a melee cleric build with Divine Metamagic/Quicken Spell, maybe Easy Metamagic (Quicken) if it fits in just to make things even sillier. Because if I do it all by RAW, I don't have to try to get a crazy homebrew item like that past the DM.

Isn't there a Stone Dragon strike that gives a +10 to critical confirmation?

[SSGoW]

So I want to know ... Where is the rules for creating resetting traps?

I might want to abuse this.... Like putting the rules in a burlap sack and beating it with a large greatclub.

[Quietus]

1. How much would it cost to 1/day surge of fortune?
2. How much would it cost to add a feat use/granted to a weapon
3. What +number of attack options do I have?

Quite simply, as a DM, I have to ask you politely not to pull crap like this. If I believed this was for theoretical optimization, that'd be one thing, but you're actually trying to put this into a game, and it WILL break things wide open. It's a great way to make the new guy feel powerful, sure, when he can point at something and declare "That dies now". But it also means that your DM can never throw something at the party expecting it to be an epic, interesting fight, unless it is something that doesn't include a head.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Quite simply, as a DM, I have to ask you politely not to pull crap like this. If I believed this was for theoretical optimization, that'd be one thing, but you're actually trying to put this into a game, and it WILL break things wide open. It's a great way to make the new guy feel powerful, sure, when he can point at something and declare "That dies now". But it also means that your DM can never throw something at the party expecting it to be an epic, interesting fight, unless it is something that doesn't include a head.

Maybe a crusade of Lumi come to the Material Plane?

[The Gilded Duke]

Flesh Ring of Scorn, Magic Item Compendium p. 100.
Automatically confirm a critical hit 3/day, does damage to you based on your crit modifier. Costs 8k and uses up your throat slot. I think its double price to have a slotless item? Just get say eight Flesh Ring of Scorn. Then each casting of Surge of Fortune is an automatic Vorpal.

Would make for a neat cleric build I think.

[Tvtyrant]

Flesh Ring of Scorn, Magic Item Compendium p. 100.
Automatically confirm a critical hit 3/day, does damage to you based on your crit modifier. Costs 8k and uses up your throat slot. I think its double price to have a slotless item? Just get say eight Flesh Ring of Scorn. Then each casting of Surge of Fortune is an automatic Vorpal.

Would make for a neat cleric build I think.

The brand new cleric-zilla build; The Luck Headsman!

I'm going to add this to my "casters do everything better" pile.

[whibla]

Quite simply, as a DM, I have to ask you politely not to pull crap like this. If I believed this was for theoretical optimization, that'd be one thing, but you're actually trying to put this into a game, and it WILL break things wide open. It's a great way to make the new guy feel powerful, sure, when he can point at something and declare "That dies now". But it also means that your DM can never throw something at the party expecting it to be an epic, interesting fight, unless it is something that doesn't include a head.

Or anything with full fortification (though that might be RAW dubious...can't be critted, but can it still be vorpalised?). Or anything with, at a minimum, the Deflect Arrows feat. There are, irrc, follow-ons to this, or magic items, that allow the target to actually catch the missile instead, and either throw it back at you, or merely hang on to it. If I were foolish enough, as a DM, to allow something like a 1+/day guaranteed vorpal weapon into my game I'd remove it, starting by having it caught and thrown right back the the player who initially threw it, possibly followed up by a quick throw at the person who somehow hoodwinked me into agreeing to this custom item ("Oh, would you believe it, I rolled a natural 20 too...) in the first place. I suspect that this would be much more satisfying than having a chat with the offending player / owner and politely asking them to sell it / exchange it for an alternate magic item.

That's just me though. Unreasonable! :smallamused:

[DeusMortuusEst]

1: Put a trap on the weapon.

2: Make the trap a reverse presser trigger in the handle. (Reverse: Instead of activating when presser is applied, like when you pick it up, it's activated when presser is removed, like when you let go as part of throwing it.)

3: Make it an auto resetting trap.

4:Make the traps effect be that it discharges a spell when triggered.

5: Make the spell Surge of Fortune.

6: Profit by enjoying the endless one hit kills up until the DM makes the entire campaign setting immune to Vorpal.

EDIT: I fail reading comprehension.