[PF] Ultimate Magic, Word Magic abuse?

[Lycar]

So I have been looking forward to the new Word Magic system.
Short version: It is nice and flavourful. You can really see how most of the iconic standard spells are really Word Spells with the edges filed off.

The downside is that you need to apply Boost words to get the effects of the standard spells and you can only ever use a number of Boost words equal to 1/2 your caster level (minimum 1). Sure you can buy 3 more with a feat but still...

I suppose this could be a lot of fun, but mostly for spontaneous casters. Fortunately you can be a traditional caster and still dabble in Word Magic with a single feat.
However, there is one thing that struck me when reading the words:

Lock Ward, from the Binding Words category.

So basically, Lock Ward allows you to close an unattended object. If it has locks, those too close. You can combine this one with another effect that gets triggered if anyone other then the caster of the Lock Word tries to open said object. Apart from being triggered, the duration of the Word Spell is permanent.

While you need to be at least level 5 before you can combine a level 1 effect word like Lock Ward with anything else, at this point the other effect word can also be level 1.

In other words, you can spell-trap an item. Pretty standard so far.

Now here is the kicker: There is no stipulation that the effect word triggered by tampering with the locked object is required to be harmful!

In other words: Attach a beneficial effect to that trap and you basically can produce an almost unlimited number of boost items, free of charge.

Sure, this doesn't work for healing as only Sorcerors/Wizards get the Lock Ward effect word and they can't get words of healing. And no, you can't mix words from different classes.

But even a simple thing such as a Force Shield word would still be a nice boost. Or Alignment Shield, basically Protection From (whatever).

(Other effects that are keyed to a lv 2 or 3 word could be utilized at caster level 7 onward.)

The question is now: Does this need to be fixed or is the ability to create what essentially amounts to 1st level potions virtually unlimited okay at level 5? :smallconfused:

[McSmack]

Wow. That's a really great application. I hadn't even thought of that. Good catch. I'm AFB right now, but I guess its effectiveness could be limited by the type of object and the amount of time it takes to retrieve/open it.

[tyckspoon]

Is there anything preventing you from stacking multiples on a single item? If you can, say, get a buttoned sheath and have it set off twenty buffs on your fighter as part of him drawing his weapon, that could be a problem (especially because that's usually done as a free Quickdraw or part of another action.) If it's limited to one Ward/item, then I don't think it's a major balance risk; action economy takes over and you won't see people popping five buff-warded items for the same reason you don't often see people casting five buffs or drinking five potions in the middle of a fight. Even if they're free, it takes too much time away from actually fighting.

Edit: Mind, as it's a really nice thing and almost certainly an unintended consequence, it'll probably get errata'd or Word of God ruled away relatively shortly.

[Lycar]

As far as the description of the word goes, there is no explicit limit on how many times you can cast a Lock Ward word on the same item. Although limiting it to 1 word per item is certainly sensible.

As for the action economy: Manipulate Object is a move action...

The point being that the secondary effect gets triggered upon trying to open (that is, manipulating) the warded object.

If the object in question is, say, a small booklet, being held close with a simple latch or something like that, one could make an argument that activating the item in question is indeed a mere move action. And there goes the action economy right out of the window. :smalltongue:

EDIT: That reminds me: The Force Armour and Force Ward words can be used to increase even an existing armour bonus by another 1, respectively 2 points, if the existing AC is equal to or higher then the bonus awarded by the word.

Plus, since Force Effects boost touch AC, something warrior types usually need in spades, having a move-activated item of Increase touch AC by 4-11 Points is... nice.

[tyckspoon]

As far as the description of the word goes, there is no explicit limit on how many times you can cast a Lock Ward word on the same item. Although limiting it to 1 word per item is certainly sensible.

As for the action economy: Manipulate Object is a move action...

The point being that the secondary effect gets triggered upon trying to open (that is, manipulating) the warded object.

If the object in question is, say, a small booklet, being held close with a simple latch or something like that, one could make an argument that activating the item in question is indeed a mere move action. And there goes the action economy right out of the window. :smalltongue:


And you mentioned it becomes available at level 5, which is right when Haste starts showing up and just before full-BAB-types get their iterative, which means using a move+standard combo has to be seriously weighed against making a full attack. That's the action economy I meant; is getting a low-level buff on worth giving up half or more of your damage potential? If you have to do them one at a time, probably not except for one or two key high-impact buffs. If you can set off like ten at a go, then heck yeah.

[Curious]

The real strength of the Word casting system is action economy. Because of the way you can combine lower level words into higher level spells, you are basically getting a spell + a quickened spell for a lower cost. But the greatest word spell in the entire book has to be Accelerate. It's the equivalent of Haste, but you get it at level 2 instead of 3, and it's affect is slightly different; it gives you an extra move action. That is huge. Combine it with some Persistent Spell metamagic and you have effectively gained a permanent move action.

[Lycar]

And you mentioned it becomes available at level 5, which is right when Haste starts showing up and just before full-BAB-types get their iterative, which means using a move+standard combo has to be seriously weighed against making a full attack. That's the action economy I meant; is getting a low-level buff on worth giving up half or more of your damage potential? If you have to do them one at a time, probably not except for one or two key high-impact buffs. If you can set off like ten at a go, then heck yeah.
Well, the secondary attack is at -5 to-hit. That is a lot of average damage less then your primary attack. Plus Furious Focus is great for a mobile fighter anyway, just that you now trigger a small buff instead of actually moving around.

As far as additional attacks go, Cleave and Great Cleave are actually viable feats now. Because you only need to hit, not to drop a creature. And Furious Focus actually makes it more likely to trigger that second attack. Okay, so all attacks past the first attack suffer the Power Attack penalties, but this isn't significantly worse then the guaranteed 2nd iterative attack.

Plus you can get Great Cleave at lv. 4, your 2nd iterative attack doesn't come before lv. 6.

So for a full level, you can basically utilize your Move Action for a buff without any drawback whatsoever. And even after level 5, this still is a nice option.

The question is thus: Is this overpowered? Is this just the upside compared to the generally lower power level of Word Magic?

Or is the real problem the fact that you can do this without any GP expenditure?

Personally I think that, since the GM is supposed to provide WBL approximate gear to the players, regardless how much gold players burn on consumables, that is not a problem at all all things considered.

The action economy thing on the other hand...

Well, provided that these items can be used by everyone in the party, I suppose it is not a bad thing. After all, NPCs can do this too. So, equal footing for everyone. :smallwink:

[Larpus]

Well, maybe Wordspells do need some balancing regarding the combinations and whatnot, however, I do believe that their overall potential should be better than regular spells after all, they're more complicated and customization is always about that, being able to do it better.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are some spell effects that cannot be reproduced with Wordspells (I mainly looked at the Alchemist wordspell list), depending on which are those spells, then maybe there's a start of balance right there.

[SamBurke]

You theoretically COULD do anything with them that I'm aware of. However, Pathfinder already has spells oozing out of all available holes.

[BobVosh]

Nice to know you can keep doing trap-buffs. Not quite as silly as Tippy's spell buff turrets and/or tunnel of buffs, but we just got the book.

[Khantin]

Man that spell is really poorly worded, but I believe by RAW that lock ward's duration changes to the buffs duration. As it is not explicitly stated that combining other effect words with lock ward does NOT affect lock wards duration, you have to go with the general rule, where duration = shortest of all the combined effect words.



from lock ward: If the wordspell includes other effect words, the effects of those words are suspended until a creature other than the wordcaster attempts to unlock or otherwise open the object.

Multiple Effect Words and Duration: If a wordspell has more than one effect word, the shortest of all the effect words’ durations is used for all of the effect words.

[Lycar]

Kanthin, where is the problem? You answered your own question right there.

The effects of the other words are suspended until they get triggered. Since Lock Ward itself has a permanent duration, other effects can be held in stasis indefinitely. Once they do get triggered, they have their usual duration. If you bind more then one effect to Lock Ward, then the shortest duration of those words counts.

[Khantin]

The effect word "lock ward", is only a part of the entire wordspell. No where does it specify in the effect word that the duration of the wordspell is set to permanent, only that the effects of other effect words are suspended.

[Lycar]

Uhm... care to read the description again? The very text you quoted to begin with?


from lock ward: If the wordspell includes other effect words, the effects of those words are suspended until a creature other than the wordcaster attempts to unlock or otherwise open the object.

'Suspended until a creature other then the the caster messes with the object'

The duration of the Lock Ward word is 'permanent'.

So unless someone other then the original caster messes with the warded object, the ward itself stays active until the planet gets swallowed by the primary star turning into a red giant. Or whatever else passes for 'end of the world'. Possibly even then.

And if some being happen to try tot pry open the warded object, millions of year after the star turned into a white dwarf and the planet into a cold, inert husk, said being will be subject to the specified spell effect for caster level/rounds/minutes/10 minutes/hours or whatever.

The created 'trap' can last for effectively 'whatever'. The triggered effect will last for what is usual for the effect in question. Modified by the Boost word of course.

[Khantin]

I'm not going to argue, I will just point out that effect suspension =/= changing the original wordspells duration, which is set by the duration of the shortest effect.

[Lycar]

And that is different from anything that has been said before how? :smallconfused:

Also it occours to me that potion bottles are objects that can be closed. With a plug. So you could cast the Lock Word + beneficial effect combo on those.

In this case, you get 2 effects for the price of a standard action. Probably just a minor bonus all things considered and not as abuseable as the move action boost.

[Wings of Peace]

This is purely for style but can I lock ward a pocket watch since many of them have a locking mechanism to keep them closed?

Three Bandits: Give us your possessions and you may pass unharmed.

Wizard: *Opens his pocket watch and is immediately wrapped in a surge of arcane energy* Is it that time again?

[Lycar]

Wings of Peace: It appears that, yes, one can put the Lock Ward on a pocket watch.

But the problem is that the associated effect only gets triggered if someone other then the original caster manipulates the object.

Remember, it is meant to be a trap. :smallamused: