Whirling Blade with Bladeweave, What Else Do I Need?

[dextercorvia]

Bladeweave is a Swift cast spell that lasts 1 round/level. Each round you may force a Will Save or Daze against one opponent that you have damaged with a melee weapon. Whirling Blade lets you attack every creature in a 60' line with a weapon of your choosing, using your casting stat in place of Str. They are both second level spells in the SpC.

What can I do to make this awesome?

[gbprime]

Bladeweave is a Swift cast spell that lasts 1 round/level. Each round you may force a Will Save or Daze against one opponent that you have damaged with a melee weapon. Whirling Blade lets you attack every creature in a 60' line with a weapon of your choosing, using your casting stat in place of Str. They are both second level spells in the SpC.

What can I do to make this awesome?

Sculpt Spell Feat. +1 Spell Level (or none, if you also take Arcane Thesis with Whirling Blade) to change the effect from a 60' line to any one of the following, chosen at the moment you cast the spell...

Cylinder (10-radius, 30 feet high)
Cone (40 foot)
Four 10x10x10 cubes
Ball (20 foot radius)
Line (120 foot)

:amused:

[WinWin]

Bracers of the Entangling Blast. Empowered Spellshards.

You may also want to check out IC: Vigilante for my entry.

Made use of those 2 spells in conjunction with Knockback, Shock Trooper, Combat Brute and Smite attacks with a spell storing weapon. Not that great, 400+ damage to initial target followed by a similar amount of damage to secondary targets...An optimized gish using something other than Vigilante casting could do much better, especially stacking on some metamagic riders for further debuffs. Fell drain would be good.

Note that Bladeweave has a limit on targets though. Only one target per round can be effected. Still decent if coupled with Extend.

[Keld Denar]

Sudden Stunning bladed weapon?

Dragonfire Inspiration?

Executioner's Mace - the only 2handed weapon that is both Slashing AND Bludgeoning making it a valid target for Whirling Blade and Greater Mighty Wallop.

More 2nd level spells/day? Or a way to Persist Bladeweave?

[Xyk]

A rogue friend who also has whirling blade. I think dazed qualifies for sneak attack.

[WinWin]

...Or a way to Persist Bladeweave?

Good point. Have it running all day then impose a 24 hour daze debuff on a failed save.

I have a hazy concept involving Metamagic Song on a Lyric Thaumaturge, though persist has a hefty cost even for single classed bards. Snowflake Wardancing should apply to a Whirling Blade attack.

Another simple option may be an Anima Mage relying on combat Vestiges.

Unfortunately metamagic specialists tend to have better options available than gishing it up. Spelldancer would be the way to go for this build though, as I think the majority of buffs would be better applied out of combat. Only real exception would be for Whirling Blade.

[dextercorvia]

Sudden Stunning bladed weapon?

Dragonfire Inspiration?

Executioner's Mace - the only 2handed weapon that is both Slashing AND Bludgeoning making it a valid target for Whirling Blade and Greater Mighty Wallop.

More 2nd level spells/day? Or a way to Persist Bladeweave?

I'm AFB, but I thought (despite the name) Whirling Blade allowed you to use any weapon.


Good point. Have it running all day then impose a 24 hour daze debuff on a failed save.

The daze is 1 round and independent of the duration.

@gbprime: Good call on sculpt spell.

[Flickerdart]

Bladeweave only hits one target regardless how many you've attacked. There's also no point in going out of your way to Persist it, as it's a swift action activation.

[Keld Denar]

I'm AFB, but I thought (despite the name) Whirling Blade allowed you to use any weapon.

Slashing weapon is a required focus, and I'm pretty sure it's even more explicit than that.

[dextercorvia]

Bladeweave only hits one target regardless how many you've attacked. There's also no point in going out of your way to Persist it, as it's a swift action activation.

1/round, anyway.

[Flickerdart]

Right, but Whirling Blade still doesn't do very much for Bladeweave, is the point.

[Optimator]

I like those spells. Gish-tacular.

[dextercorvia]

Right, but Whirling Blade still doesn't do very much for Bladeweave, is the point.

I think being able to do a melee attack from 60' away makes it very valuable for Bladeweave. Also, you can attack more, which means you are fairly well guaranteed a hit, and therefore will get the most use out of your Bladeweave.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

See, what you really do is you go War Weaver and Spellguard of Silverymoon so that each of your allies gains the benefits of one casting of Bladeweave:smallamused:

[WinWin]

The daze is 1 round and independent of the duration.


1 round is a duration. It's not a dischargable effect and I don't see anything in the faq that prevents it from being effected by any metamagic.

The fact it has an independant duration means that the daze will probably last longer than the Bladeweave. Maybe I'm missing something. If there is any clarification from a legitimate source I would appreciate some citation.



On another note, War Weaver alone will not be of benefit in conjunction with Bladeweave. All your allies are effected by the same spell, so there will still be the 1/round limit. I am not familliar with Spellguard though, so it may have some benefit that alters this restriction.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

On another note, War Weaver alone will not be of benefit in conjunction with Bladeweave. All your allies are effected by the same spell, so there will still be the 1/round limit. I am not familliar with Spellguard though, so it may have some benefit that alters this restriction.

Yes, it will, because of how it duplicates the spell for each person. So each person gets to daze someone with one attack per round. You need Spellguard of Silverymoon to give the buff to your party, however.

[Ernir]

A rogue friend who also has whirling blade. I think dazed qualifies for sneak attack.

No, it doesn't.

Sudden Stunning would work for this, however.

[dextercorvia]

1 round is a duration. It's not a dischargable effect and I don't see anything in the faq that prevents it from being effected by any metamagic.

The fact it has an independant duration means that the daze will probably last longer than the Bladeweave. Maybe I'm missing something. If there is any clarification from a legitimate source I would appreciate some citation.



On another note, War Weaver alone will not be of benefit in conjunction with Bladeweave. All your allies are effected by the same spell, so there will still be the 1/round limit. I am not familliar with Spellguard though, so it may have some benefit that alters this restriction.

Bladeweave is a Personal spell that has a duration of 1 round/level. That is what would be affected by Extend or Persist. The daze lasts for one round, but isn't listed in the duration (there isn't even a See Text).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cast (Lesser Rod of) Extended Wraithstrike the round before, or have Persistent Wraithstrike up.

Charge someone with Power Attack, Leap Attack, and possibly Arcane Strike. Use a Circlet of Rapid Casting to cast Whirling Blade, still adding your Power Attack + Leap Attack damage and charge bonuses, with Wraithstrike still active.

[WinWin]

Bladeweave is a Personal spell that has a duration of 1 round/level. That is what would be affected by Extend or Persist. The daze lasts for one round, but isn't listed in the duration (there isn't even a See Text).

By that reasoning empowering spells will not increase numerical effects listed in the text of the spell.

It's an effect with a duration. Metamagic that enhances duration would apply. I don't care if you agree with me or not, but you're going to have to cite some references if you want me to change my mind.


Yes, it will, because of how it duplicates the spell for each person. So each person gets to daze someone with one attack per round. You need Spellguard of Silverymoon to give the buff to your party, however.

The text of war weaver says that the same spell is shared. That can be construed as one spell between several targets. I have not read Spellguard though, so I assume it can alter the properties of personal spells.

[Douglas]

It's an effect with a duration. Metamagic that enhances duration would apply. I don't care if you agree with me or not, but you're going to have to cite some references if you want me to change my mind.
The daze is an effect with a duration, but it is not itself the spell.

Bladeweave does not daze people. Rather, it grants the caster the ability to daze people. This has several consequences:
1) Casting dispel magic on someone dazed as a result of Bladeweave will do nothing - the spell is on the caster, not the victim.
2) Casting dispel magic on the user of Bladeweave would end the spell, preventing him from dazing again, but would have no effect on any dazes currently in effect.
3) A Ring of Counterspells with Bladeweave stored in it is utterly pointless and useless - it would only prevent the wearer from using Bladeweave himself, not protect him from an enemy using it.
4) Altering Bladeweave's duration changes how long the caster has the granted ability to daze people, but it does not change that ability in any way.

It's not so much a matter of text vs summary (though that is part of it), but rather direct vs indirect. A spell with a duration says X is true for Y time. If X is "target is dazed", then applying Extend or Persistent Spell will increase the length of the daze. If X is "target can daze people", then applying Extend or Persistent Spell will increase how long the target has that ability but will not change anything about how long each daze lasts. Bladeweave is the latter case. Similarly, using these feats on Shapechange lets you stay polymorphed longer but does not improve any abilities you might gain from the forms you change into.

[Fax Celestis]

Toss Flame blade or scimitar of sand in there too. "But Fax!" I hear you say. "It needs a slashing weapon!" I present:


You wield this bladelike beam as if it were a scimitar.

And scimitars, as we all know, are slashing weapons.

Sculpted whirling flame blade for four 4 10'x10'x10' cubes of fiery touch attacks.

[Douglas]

Sculpted whirling flame blade for four 4 10'x10'x10' cubes of fiery touch attacks.
Flame Blade isn't eligible for Sculpt Spell. Sculpt Spell only works on area spells, and Flame Blade is an effect spell with no area.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Flame Blade isn't eligible for Sculpt Spell. Sculpt Spell only works on area spells, and Flame Blade is an effect spell with no area.

He's saying to sculpt Whirling Blade, and the 'blade' you use to make the attacks is a Flame Blade.

[WinWin]

The daze is an effect with a duration, but it is not itself the spell.

Bladeweave does not daze people. Rather, it grants the caster the ability to daze people. This has several consequences:
1) Casting dispel magic on someone dazed as a result of Bladeweave will do nothing - the spell is on the caster, not the victim.
2) Casting dispel magic on the user of Bladeweave would end the spell, preventing him from dazing again, but would have no effect on any dazes currently in effect.
3) A Ring of Counterspells with Bladeweave stored in it is utterly pointless and useless - it would only prevent the wearer from using Bladeweave himself, not protect him from an enemy using it.
4) Altering Bladeweave's duration changes how long the caster has the granted ability to daze people, but it does not change that ability in any way.

It's not so much a matter of text vs summary (though that is part of it), but rather direct vs indirect. A spell with a duration says X is true for Y time. If X is "target is dazed", then applying Extend or Persistent Spell will increase the length of the daze. If X is "target can daze people", then applying Extend or Persistent Spell will increase how long the target has that ability but will not change anything about how long each daze lasts. Bladeweave is the latter case. Similarly, using these feats on Shapechange lets you stay polymorphed longer but does not improve any abilities you might gain from the forms you change into.

yet every successful attack requires a saving throw and checks against SR. The daze effect is not a secondary effect in the vein of setting someone ablaze with a Produce Flame, or the special attack of a summoned monster; it is a product of the spell itself. Your reasoning does not support this, but is based off the assumption that the daze effect is not really part of the spell...

As I see it, if the spell is modified, then all relevant effects of the spell will be modified in the same way.

I appreciate the time you took to write out your opinion, but i find it irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion. Without a proper rules citation from a legitimate reference*, you are not going to be able to alter my opinion.


*FAQ, Errata, Rules Of The Game, page number and book reference, etc. Opinion 'aint gonna cut it for me.

[dextercorvia]

@Fax: Awesome stuff. Are there any other spells that create a slashing weapon? I'm thinking Ice Axe, but I can't recall off the top of my head.

@WinWin:

RAW stuff: Only the duration of the spell is affected by those metamagics. Unlike Empower spell, neither Extend, nor Persistent mention the effects of the spell. Certainly, sometimes there is overlap. If you persist Lesser Mass Vigor, then the fast healing is an effect of the spell that lasts 24 hours, because the targets receive fast healing for the duration of the spell.

Plain Reason: Suppose you Persist Holy Star. One of the spell effects is that you can deal Xd6 with a ranged touch attack. However, this doesn't mean that that attack lasts for 24 hours. Also, damage is normally instantaneous. If damage is an effect of a persistent spell (Holy Star, eg.), does that mean that it goes away after 24 hours?

Edit: Succinctly --

Empower refers to all of the variable effects of the spell. Persist and Extend only change the duration of the spell.

[Douglas]

Oh, the daze effect most certainly is part of the spell, but its duration is most definitely not the same thing as the spell's duration and the metamagic feats in question only affect the spell's duration.


As I see it, if the spell is modified, then all relevant effects of the spell will be modified in the same way.
An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extendSpell) Note: the spell lasts twice as long, not "all effects of the spell last twice as long."
A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) Note: the spell's duration is 24 hours, not that of each and every effect it causes.

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell) Note: all appropriate effects are explicitly included here.
All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell) Note: all appropriate effects are explicitly included here.

Note the contrast. Your assumption that I quoted is not backed up by the rules.

From Bladeweave:

Duration: 1 round/level (D)
That is the spell's duration, therefore that is what gets changed by Extend Spell and Persistent Spell. The daze's duration is quite clearly distinct from that.

[dextercorvia]

@douglas:

Thank you for taking the time to grab the quotes. I'm a little shocked this argument is even happening.

By the way, did you ever enter a Dwarf Swiftblade//Swordsage (with a dash of some other stuff like Pious Templar) in an Arena battle?

[Douglas]

By the way, did you ever enter a Dwarf Swiftblade//Swordsage (with a dash of some other stuff like Pious Templar) in an Arena battle?
I have entered a Swiftblade//Swordsage in an arena once, but I believe it was a Star Elf, not a dwarf, and I don't remember if it had a Pious Templar dip. It was a long time ago and on another site, too.

[dextercorvia]

I have entered a Swiftblade//Swordsage in an arena once, but I believe it was a Star Elf, not a dwarf, and I don't remember if it had a Pious Templar dip. It was a long time ago and on another site, too.

This was on rpol, probably around 2006-7, I believe the name was Tobit.

[Douglas]

I don't remember the character's name, but that sounds about right for time and site. The game was the Arena at the Vortex of Worlds, or something like that, and it had a number of house rules and a limit of three non-core source books for each character - pick whichever three you like, but only three.

On second thought, I'm not so sure about the character's race.

Why do you ask?

[Fax Celestis]

@Fax: Awesome stuff. Are there any other spells that create a slashing weapon? I'm thinking Ice Axe, but I can't recall off the top of my head.

You could take a dip in Daggerspell Mage and use Invocation of the Knife to turn half of any spell's damage into slashing damage.

I think City Spell (Cityscape) may do the same thing, but it's more limited.

Anyway. A touch-attack (or a weapon-like) spell that deals slashing damage is a wielded weapon. Whirling blade specifies it has to be a melee weapon, so no dagger-invoked whirling ray of frosts, sorry, but you can certainly do something like dagger-invoked whirling shocking grasp.

Of course, your DM may not like that, even if it is, ostensibly, legal. I'd certainly allow it: throwing sharp lightning at people is freaking awesome, plus you're either using two rounds by holding a touch-spell charge before throwing it, or you're using quicken (or already swift) touch spells.

[Keld Denar]

If you cast another spell while holding the charge on a touch spell, the touch spell disappates harmlessly.

So if you have a Shocking Grasp on your hand, and you try to Whirling Blade it, the act of casting the Whirling Blade will disappate the Shocking Grasp and you'll be stuck dividing by cucumber.

[aquaticrna]

so you just need to find spells that produce a lasting effect like "flame whips" or something, instead of a touch spell

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you can use Persistent Bladeweave, what's to stop you from having four of them active every day? That's four attacks per round that can daze instead of just one, or if you want to go all-out on one attack it's four chances to fail the save.

[Keld Denar]

This...


Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.


Two spells running concurrently would overlap, and you'd only gain the benefit of one. The only difference would be if someone tried to dispel you, they'd have to dispel all of your Bladeweaves to strip the effect from you.

[dextercorvia]

If you cast another spell while holding the charge on a touch spell, the touch spell disappates harmlessly.

So if you have a Shocking Grasp on your hand, and you try to Whirling Blade it, the act of casting the Whirling Blade will disappate the Shocking Grasp and you'll be stuck dividing by cucumber.

Spellflower would help get around this.

[dextercorvia]

I don't remember the character's name, but that sounds about right for time and site. The game was the Arena at the Vortex of Worlds, or something like that, and it had a number of house rules and a limit of three non-core source books for each character - pick whichever three you like, but only three.

On second thought, I'm not so sure about the character's race.

Why do you ask?

That sounds right. IIRC, you picked Wizards.com for one of your sites, netting you Pious Templar for mettle, and Swiftblade.

Douglas isn't that common of a name, and so I've always wondered if it was you. Your writing style and RAWbitration skills matched my memory. I lurked there for a long time -- I never had the chops to try out anything over an ECL1 battle back then. I credit that character (and you) with developing my interest in optimization beyond the basics.

[WinWin]

Oh, the daze effect most certainly is part of the spell, but its duration is most definitely not the same thing as the spell's duration and the metamagic feats in question only affect the spell's duration.


An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extendSpell) Note: the spell lasts twice as long, not "all effects of the spell last twice as long."
A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) Note: the spell's duration is 24 hours, not that of each and every effect it causes.

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell) Note: all appropriate effects are explicitly included here.
All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell) Note: all appropriate effects are explicitly included here.

Note the contrast. Your assumption that I quoted is not backed up by the rules.

From Bladeweave:

That is the spell's duration, therefore that is what gets changed by Extend Spell and Persistent Spell. The daze's duration is quite clearly distinct from that.

I own complete arcane. I know the text of Persist Spell. I would like to see some rules covering the following:


Oh, the daze effect most certainly is part of the spell, but its duration is most definitely not the same thing as the spell's duration and the metamagic feats in question only affect the spell's duration.

So a duration is a duration but not a duration for the purpose of Persist Spell. M'kay. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. Unless you can present some evidence that duration of effects are not actually durations for the purpose of feats, then our opinions are going to differ. I can live with that.

[dextercorvia]

Can you show where the time spent dazed is a duration of the spell?

[Fax Celestis]

So a duration is a duration but not a duration for the purpose of Persist Spell. M'kay. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. Unless you can present some evidence that duration of effects are not actually durations for the purpose of feats, then our opinions are going to differ. I can live with that.

A spell's effects may have durations within the spell text. Persist Spell changes the info block's text from 1 min/lev to 24 hrs.


Spellflower would help get around this.

Absoballylutely.

Also, if you can fit seven levels of Enlightened Fist in there somewhere for Hold Ray (and maybe some Spellwarp Sniper for Spellwarp), you could do some pretty lols things. Fairly suboptimal, but at the least pretty visually striking.

[Douglas]

So a duration is a duration but not a duration for the purpose of Persist Spell. M'kay. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. Unless you can present some evidence that duration of effects are not actually durations for the purpose of feats, then our opinions are going to differ. I can live with that.
I'm not saying the effect's duration is not a duration. I'm saying that it isn't the duration of the spell. The duration of the spell is how long you retain the ability to daze people.