Ways to LOWER save DCs

[Aemoh87]

I wanna play a funny shadowcrafter who can cast 10th level spells but has low saves. Give me your secrets playground!

[sonofzeal]

Honestly, I think it would be entirely reasonable to allow you to voluntarily cast spells below your maximum DC. I don't really see it as that humorous though. I'd rather use normal DCs, but get by on only low-level spells.

[Aemoh87]

Honestly, I think it would be entirely reasonable to allow you to voluntarily cast spells below your maximum DC. I don't really see it as that humorous though. I'd rather use normal DCs, but get by on only low-level spells.

It's not funny because I wanna be a shadowcrafter... So I want my foes to succeed my saves to take a ton of damage and other such funnies.

[ericgrau]

Isn't there some kind of ability in the X to Y list that could let you switch your save DC stat? Then you dump it to 1 somehow (flaws? bestow curse? etc.) while maintaining a 19 in your actual caster stat so you can still cast spells. EDIT: Hmm, I could only find ways to apply a different stat to bonus spells.

Aha, if you tell your enemies that your illusions are illusions and they believe you they get a +4 to their save. A more RAW method might be to have an illusion of one of their allies say it or some such.

[Derjuin]

Isn't there some kind of ability in the X to Y list that could let you switch your save DC stat? Then you dump it to 1 somehow (flaws? bestow curse? etc.) while maintaining a 19 in your actual caster stat so you can still cast spells. EDIT: Hmm, I could only find ways to apply a different stat to bonus spells.

Though it's not in the X to Y list (to my knowledge), the Geomancer PrC lets you swap stats between arcane and divine spells. So if your Wisdom is just high enough to let you cast level 2 divine spells to enter the class, you can switch it from Int or Cha to Wis and lower your saves on those spells while keeping bonus spells based on your normal stat.

[ericgrau]

Hmmm then bestow curse and touch of idiocy (10 min/level) could work.

[Aemoh87]

I think we may be thinking of this wrong... Maybe I should just change my casting stat without changing my DC stat... then lower my DC stat as much as possible.

[ericgrau]

That sounds better. Assuming an 8 in the dump stat and bestow curse we're already at a 2. 1 more to go. So far I see armor of rage (-4 but it's full plate), touch of idiocy (1d6 to all mental stats, though you could maximize it), and a racial penalty, but I bet there's an easier way somewhere. If you're allowed to play a pre-teen you can get a -1 to all stats, at least by SAGA rules.

That puts the save DC at 6 for level 1 spells. Monster saves are roughly equal to their CR IIRC, so by CR 10 and level 5 spells that's pretty close to auto-pass. Work here is done?

[Derjuin]

Lowering the stat itself by too much might actually keep you from casting - you still need a 10 + spell level to cast the spell. As far as I know, the Geomancer shenanigans still let you cast even if you switch the save DC stat (or, more or less it's not directly spelled out in the ability).

[Aemoh87]

Lowering the stat itself by too much might actually keep you from casting - you still need a 10 + spell level to cast the spell. As far as I know, the Geomancer shenanigans still let you cast even if you switch the save DC stat (or, more or less it's not directly spelled out in the ability).

Not if I change my casting stat... then I can lower my DC stat all I want.

[WinWin]

Situational, but applying the Chain Spell metamagic to single target illusions will lower save DC's for secondary targets.

[deuxhero]

Craven hurts your will save IIRC.

[ILM]

It's not funny because I wanna be a shadowcrafter... So I want my foes to succeed my saves to take a ton of damage and other such funnies.
So they're taking a 140% damage fireball, cool. Except the reflex save they get also has a laughable DC and now they're only taking 70% (or 0% if they have Evasion). Whoops?

[Radar]

So they're taking a 140% damage fireball, cool. Except the reflex save they get also has a laughable DC and now they're only taking 70% (or 0% if they have Evasion). Whoops?
So you just mimic damage spells, that don't allow a save - rays, clouds, force missiles etc.

[Username_too_lo]

Create a Legacy weapon which penalises your Saves.

[Necroticplague]

Sanctum spell can reduce the spell level of a spell, reducing the DC of it.

[Ernir]

Sanctum Spell outside your Sanctum.

EDIT: Who needs ninjas when I'm this slow?

[NecroRick]

Something like Mage Slayer?

[candycorn]

It's entirely reasonable for Bestow Curse to provide a -6 to save DC's... Or even -10 to save DC's from a single school of magic (illusion). This could be stacked with a bestow greater curse to lower the DC stat to a 1.

That would make the save DC 10-15+Spell level, or DC 4 for a level 9 illusion spell.

I would recommend against asking the DM for a curse that applies a penalty only to DC of Saving throws to disbelieve illusions. That would likely get a book thrown at you.

[Ravens_cry]

It may be doable by RAW, but as a DM I would rule that illusions can not be 'realer' than reality. Any character resources spent to attain this will be 'refunded' to be assigned at the players discretion, but this is too much 'abusing the rules as rules' for me.

[Urpriest]

It may be doable by RAW, but as a DM I would rule that illusions can not be 'realer' than reality. Any character resources spent to attain this will be 'refunded' to be assigned at the players discretion, but this is too much 'abusing the rules as rules' for me.

Any particular reason?

Let me put it this way: why is it any more unreasonable for illusions to be more real than reality, than to have them be even partially real in the first place? Yes, it's because they've got "essence of the plane of shadow", but do you know how the plane of shadow works? Do you have some real-life experience that would give you "common sense" about the plane of shadow?

The only thing we know about spells and planes is what's contained in the rules. Common sense is entirely inapplicable.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, for one, it encourages metagame behaviour like trying to get curses that in-fact improve something for you. Not even a benefit with a severe drawback, an out and out benefit. Two, how can something that is meant to simulate reality be realer then what it is meant to simulate? It just feels . . .wrong, completely going against the spirit of illusions been, well, illusionary. Besides, I myself would think it a jerk move if a DM said "OK you pass, take MORE damage." Yes, these are mostly opinions, but like I said, this is how I would rule it.

[Divide by Zero]

Craven hurts your will save IIRC.

Craven gives a penalty to your own will save, not spell DCs.

[Necroticplague]

How can an illusion feal realer than reality? Simple. It feels like the way reality "should be." A shadow fireball is hotter than a normal one, and a shadow wall of ice is harder than actual ice. Oh yeah, and there is also something called "willingly failing your save", which you are allowed to do.

[Ravens_cry]

How can an illusion feal realer than reality? Simple. It feels like the way reality "should be." A shadow fireball is hotter than a normal one, and a shadow wall of ice is harder than actual ice.
OK, how does "special effect other than damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm)" happen 110% (or more) of the time? Something happens all the time or less, it is logically impossible for it to happen more than that.

[ericgrau]

So they're taking a 140% damage fireball, cool. Except the reflex save they get also has a laughable DC and now they're only taking 70% (or 0% if they have Evasion). Whoops?

70% merely puts the fireball at par or slightly below par. Not usually the best choice, but against a swarm of baddies even fireball is still handy. So he focuses on other effects, no save damage, walls, "X fog"s, etc. Not b/c 140% walls & etc. are any better than real walls, just that walls are really good. Too bad some of the walls are no longer immune to magic stopping effects, but that's manageable.

[Necroticplague]

OK, how does "special effect other than damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm)" happen 110% (or more) of the time? Something happens all the time or less, it is logically impossible for it to happen more than that.

It always occurs, and has a chance of occurring twice. In your example, it would always occur, then have a 10 percent chance of occurring again.

[Ravens_cry]

*shakes my head at the madness and quietly leaves the thread*

[brujon]

There are only three things i know of that can reduce a spell's save DC: Casting it at a lower level (Archivists can cast from lot's of other's spell lists... some spells get something like ranger2/clr4) or getting level drained. Ability score damage, too.

Sadly, the first isn't available for a shadowcrafter, the other two gimp your ability to cast.

BUT... You can shout out loud that the spell is an ILLUSION. That oughta give them a pretty good bonus to disbelieve. And take more damage.

There's also the Minor Creation trick as a shadowcrafter... You create Black Lotus Extract poison. Under your enemies.