Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity

[Vultawk]

Not sure if this is a rules question or a flavor question, but aside from the "Character's sex changes" and the possibility of becoming asexual entirely, how much of a change occurs? Do you look like a potential twin sister/brother? Do scars, tattoos, and other "body modifications" remain? How about hair color and eye color? Would you be recognizable as yourself?

[OracleofSilence]

i would say that really comes down to DM flavor. its more or less your choice.

[Ravens_cry]

I would say your gender changes, but otherwise you stay the same. For example, if your bald, it won't grow hair. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0235.html) Or remove it unless it is a sexual characteristic. And yes, you keep your tattoos and piercing, though the former might be look a little funny now that your body is a different shape.

[Divide by Zero]

Custom item = DM's call.

[Vultawk]

Custom? Is it not in the rule books anymore?

[Jack_Simth]

Custom? Is it not in the rule books anymore?Not in 3.5, no. It was removed somewhere along the line. However, the "change gender" property still exists as a random option on the drawbacks table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#drawback) in the cursed item section (30-32).

[Rixx]

It's in Pathfinder, though.

[Vultawk]

That's what I use, so I forgot and wasn't able to find that it's not in 3.5.

[sverigesson]

I think the most important question here is, "If I turn into a woman, am I hot?" :smallwink:

[marcielle]

Well let's look at it this way. Say its based on alter self. You would retain all your own ability scores, including CHA. That means you will end up only as hot as you originally were. If you suddenly become VERY unsociable, will the belt actually make you hotter to compensate? It probably would. So if you wanna become hotter, slap one on and then ACT LIKE A JERK. Your hotness would increase to compensate so people would like you about the same amount.

Say it was based on polymorph. Polymorph can change physical abilities like STR so it IS possible it could alter you physically enough to make you hotter(if intentional, if due to curse, you probably become uglier) without requiring attitude change.

[Ravens_cry]

I think the most important question here is, "If I turn into a woman, am I hot?" :smallwink:
If you follow the cinimatic approach, yes. If you go for more of Narbonic style, if you are a fuggly little man, you will be a fuggly littler woman. (http://www.webcomicsnation.com/shaenongarrity/narbonic_plus/series.php?view=archive&chapter=29733#strip3)

[Qaera]

the possibility of becoming asexual entirely,

I do not think that means what you think it means. Say Roy Greenhilt likes women. If he becomes a she, she will still have the same preferences as before, so female!Roy would be considered a lesbian. If he was originally homosexual, she would be considered heterosexual after donning the Girdle.

~ ♅

[Alaris]

I do not think that means what you think it means. Say Roy Greenhilt likes women. If he becomes a she, she will still have the same preferences as before, so female!Roy would be considered a lesbian. If he was originally homosexual, she would be considered heterosexual after donning the Girdle.

~ ♅

Depends on the flavor that particular DM wants to use.

You could easily say, "Yes, in your mind, you should still be attracted to girls... but your physical body is heterosexual..."

I've seen it happen in a campaign.

[Ravens_cry]

I do not think that means what you think it means. Say Roy Greenhilt likes women. If he becomes a she, she will still have the same preferences as before, so female!Roy would be considered a lesbian. If he was originally homosexual, she would be considered heterosexual after donning the Girdle.

~ ♅
They are referring to the Old AD&D Girdle Rules where 10% of Girdles made you neuter. Asexual as referring to those who are not interested in romantic relationships and sex at all (or much, much lless) is a fairly recent invention,

[Qaera]

Depends on the flavor that particular DM wants to use.

You could easily say, "Yes, in your mind, you should still be attracted to girls... but your physical body is heterosexual..."

I've seen it happen in a campaign.
If it only changes your sex and not your gender, then you would still feel like you were your original sex. And the body doesn't have a sexual orientation...


They are referring to the Old AD&D Girdle Rules where 10% of Girdles made you neuter. Asexual as referring to those who are not interested in romantic relationships and sex at all (or much, much lless) is a fairly recent invention,
So.... Barbie/Ken smooth? Or what? I've only played 3.5. I think aromantic is different from asexual, although some might be both.

~ ♅

[Vultawk]

Asexual as in having no sex, like an amoeba.

[Vandicus]

And the body doesn't have a sexual orientation...


Homosexuality is typically tied to either abnormally high testosterone levels(in females) or abnormally high estrogen levels(in males). Gender typing has been debunked(by a poor unfortunate child who was raised into believing he was a different gender), indicating that your body does in fact play a role in your sexual orientation. The question here is whether the girdle effects your estrogen/testosterone levels.

[Qaera]

Asexual as in having no sex, like an amoeba.
That makes more sense. So what would it look like physically? People still have to process body waste.


Homosexuality is typically tied to either abnormally high testosterone levels(in females) or abnormally high estrogen levels(in males). Gender typing has been debunked(by a poor unfortunate child who was raised into believing he was a different gender), indicating that your body does in fact play a role in your sexual orientation. The question here is whether the girdle effects your estrogen/testosterone levels.
That may be true in the stereotypical feminine gay man/masuline lesbian woman, but it is definitely not true in anywhere near all of the cases. There are still heterosexual feminine men and masculine women. A single case is nowhere near definitive, and using science when we're talking about a magic item is... Yeah. Just say A Wizard Did It.

~ ♅

[Honest Tiefling]

I believe certain brain structures also develop while young that may influence gender identity and sexuality. If you don't get put into a body that's just you with different naughty bits, in theory whatever triggers sexuality could also be randomly determined like hair color.

I also wonder how this would work with birth order. Would your new body show no signs of change from whatever happened in your mom's womb, or would it randomly be assigned effects? This isn't something minor, this is one of the best ways to predict homosexuality in males.

Personally, if I were DMing, I'll just tell the player that their PC changed sexes. And just handwave that the things are not a common magical item and each tends to work differently. And just leave the exact effects to whatever the player is comfortable with and can pull off with the character.

[Ravens_cry]

If it only changes your sex and not your gender, then you would still feel like you were your original sex. And the body doesn't have a sexual orientation...


So.... Barbie/Ken smooth? Or what? I've only played 3.5. I think aromantic is different from asexual, although some might be both.

~ ♅
It doesn't say, it just says it 'removes all sex from the wearer.' (italics theirs)
Basically, you have no sexual characteristics. I would say no beard (unless dwarf:smallwink:), no gentiles, no breasts, nothing, and a build and facial characteristic that can be descried as 'androgynous'. If you want to get into details, you still have some opening for the urethra.

[Shadowknight12]

Homosexuality is typically tied to either abnormally high testosterone levels(in females) or abnormally high estrogen levels(in males). Gender typing has been debunked(by a poor unfortunate child who was raised into believing he was a different gender), indicating that your body does in fact play a role in your sexual orientation. The question here is whether the girdle effects your estrogen/testosterone levels.

The validity of these findings is being highly questioned. To anyone reading this, don't take that as anything but a lot of "ifs" and "maybes."

It is still unproven whether hormones have an actual psychological effect beyond the standard "testosterone = aggressiveness/sexual desire," "oestrogens = upbeat friendliness" and "progesterone = depressed/irritated moodiness." And even this is not yet fully accepted in the scientific community.

[Fitz10019]

just leave the exact effects to whatever the player is comfortable with and can pull off with the character. [emphasis added]

an excellent suggestion

[Vandicus]

The validity of these findings is being highly questioned. To anyone reading this, don't take that as anything but a lot of "ifs" and "maybes."

It is still unproven whether hormones have an actual psychological effect beyond the standard "testosterone = aggressiveness/sexual desire," "oestrogens = upbeat friendliness" and "progesterone = depressed/irritated moodiness." And even this is not yet fully accepted in the scientific community.

Could you provide me a link or name of a textbook source please? The most updated books I read(published 2006) pointed out the statistical correlation and stated it was still the accepted hypothesis.

[Crasical]

I think it's a bad idea to dictate for a character their sexual orientation after the spell transformation. It's already kind of uncomfortable to (Possibly without their consent) transform a character to the opposite gender, stating that they are now having unusual sexual urges is probably enough that you'll have someone objecting that you're injecting your fetishes into the game, and that anything about 'Oh, the body has an effect on sexuality!' is just you rationalizing.

[Shadowknight12]

Could you provide me a link or name of a textbook source please? The most updated books I read(published 2006) pointed out the statistical correlation and stated it was still the accepted hypothesis.

Sorry, it didn't occur to me to ask my professors the textbook where it had been disproven. After all, in none of my textbooks (Curtis for Biology, Latarjet for Anatomy, Ross and Pawlina for Histology, McMurray for Organic Chemistry, Abbas for Immunology, Best and Taylor for Physiology and Ganong for Medical Physiology) is it ever mentioned what psychological effects hormones have beyond what I mentioned above. When the subject came up in class, it was widely regarded as being utterly ludicrous by pretty much everyone.

The truth is that psychophysiology has its fair share of murky areas and while a high level of oestrogens might lead to a more stereotypically female behaviour (and a more stereotypically male behaviour for testosterone), and that the hormone would stimulate the development of the secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite gender, the actual effect on sexual attraction is far from being clear-cut. Finding high levels of the opposite gender's hormone on a homosexual individual does not establish firm proof, since there are plenty of heterosexual individuals with abnormal hormone levels. I know this for a fact, because I have seen it myself in the lab. The problem is that, of course, these facts are often left obscured while other studies are given prominence in order to generate a false perception in the scientific community.

And I believe that's all I'm allowed to say on the matter, as per the forum rules.

On topic: I'd simply give the player a few roleplaying tips on what biological changes would occur after the sex change (androgens versus the oestrogens/progesterone cycle) and let them play it out on their own.

[John Cribati]

What about... er... Prince Albert piercings, or the female equivalent? Where would the piercing "go?"

[Shadowknight12]

What about... er... Prince Albert piercings, or the female equivalent? Where would the piercing "go?"

*clink* To the floor.

[Vandicus]

The truth is that psychophysiology has its fair share of murky areas

You're telling me. Its basically that way with almost all elements of psychology. With the amount of stuff that's been changed over the last century, I wouldn't be surprised if most of what we accept today is thrown out in our lifetimes. Its a shame you don't have the book name, its a bit of a hobby for me ever since I took a college class in psychology.


On Topic: I'd say this is all largely up to the GM. The text isn't clear on what gender change entails besides physical appearance.
*EDIT Its not exactly clear on physical appearance changes either, besides the basics.

[Crasical]

What about... er... Prince Albert piercings, or the female equivalent? Where would the piercing "go?"

I assume it falls off onto the ground, like when you equip something while wild-shaped and then transform back. I've been considering playing a Master of Many Forms character that turns into medium-sized creatures and then wears a Hat of Disguise to disguise as his original form, so that illusion-penetrating magic pierces the illusion AND the wildshape, so they just see him as his normal self despite being superstrong or having poison claws or whatever. I've been joking about calling the character 'Clothes fall off man' because He's going to have to strip, wildshape, put on his robe, and then have it fall off him when he shapes back to human

[Shadowknight12]

You're telling me. Its basically that way with almost all elements of psychology. With the amount of stuff that's been changed over the last century, I wouldn't be surprised if most of what we accept today is thrown out in our lifetimes. Its a shame you don't have the book name, its a bit of a hobby for me ever since I took a college class in psychology.

Ah, sorry, I'm more on the biomedical side of the issue, rather than on the psychological. I get the feeling that they leave out the "murky" areas on purpose so that we aren't scratching our heads and debating when we're supposed to be studying what happens when a tumour starts secreting hormones, instead. :smallyuk:

But yeah, I do agree that psychology is evolving at breakneck pace and it's still got a long way to go. I'll ask my teachers next time I see them and send you a PM if I find something. :smallsmile:

[Vandicus]

But yeah, I do agree that psychology is evolving at breakneck pace and it's still got a long way to go. I'll ask my teachers next time I see them and send you a PM if I find something. :smallsmile:

Thanks. *More words to fufill word requirements per post

[Thurbane]

Play an elf...if your sex changes, or you become asexual, no one will notice...

[Honest Tiefling]

Shadowknight, if it would not be much trouble, I would also be interested in such articles. I understand if that is a bother.

On topic, I would do a Thri-kreen. With elves they might spy on you while bathing to figure it out. With a Thri-kreen, few people have any idea.

...Erm. I haven't played psionics, so I'm not really sure they aren't all female and reproduce with parthenogenesis, actually. What would this belt do to someone whose race only has one sex, or where the males died out?

[Vultawk]

Play an elf...if your sex changes, or you become asexual, no one will notice...

He'll be human, and will be becoming a female after donning the belt on purpose. (He'll choose to fail the Fort save, so no chance of the natural 1.)

I'm just thinking about it because the current BBEG will be a party member at first (there's a rotating DM, so I'll play him as a PC every so ofter), then after his first encounter with them, he'll resurface as a woman.

The thing is, he'll have distinctive facial tattoos, so I'm wondering if he'll have to use Disguise or some kind of magic to do hide them.

[Acanous]

hmm... I don't think the girdle grants a save, anyhow. Your gender changes if you put it on, the end. Like other cursed items.

Facial tattoos will propably stay. Might distort a tad by changes to your facial structure, but you're going to need to cantrip them away to actually be rid of 'em. [change the colour of the tattoo to match the colour of your flesh. You'd still look kinda scarred, but it'd be harder to recognise]

This may vary by DM.

[Ravens_cry]

In AD&D, it did not have a save, but Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/cursed-items#TOC-Girdle-of-Opposite-Gender) has a DC 20 Fortitude save. A natural 1 on the save leaves you neuter. The Helm that changes alignment also has a save and it also a cursed item.
Query: Would a voluntary fail count as a 1?

[Honest Tiefling]

Have the BBEG start forcibly putting that tattoo onto people he's tortured/harassed. Occasionally, he'll brand people with the same tattoo he has, and tells them to spread their stories wide and far or he'll find them again and make them beg for death. He doesn't really need to have done it all along, but as soon as he gets the idea to use the belt to enter the party.

So when he does show up, just have him pretend to be one of the BBEG's victims who was let go to show the world what an evil mofo he is.

[Jack_Simth]

Query: Would a voluntary fail count as a 1?By RAW? The phrasing is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow):
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality. Compare to:
Automatic Failures and Successes

A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure, and the spell may cause damage to exposed items (see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, below). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success. As listed, no, they're different categories of events.

[Vultawk]

Have the BBEG start forcibly putting that tattoo onto people he's tortured/harassed. Occasionally, he'll brand people with the same tattoo he has, and tells them to spread their stories wide and far or he'll find them again and make them beg for death. He doesn't really need to have done it all along, but as soon as he gets the idea to use the belt to enter the party.

So when he does show up, just have him pretend to be one of the BBEG's victims who was let go to show the world what an evil mofo he is.

I like it.


By RAW? The phrasing is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow):Compare to:As listed, no, they're different categories of events.

That's what I thought.

[Trinoya]

I actually cursed a player to curse others with the gender bending mayhem... made an entire D100 table worth of gender themed curses.

I'm fairly sure my players never forgave.

But regardless: What I do is I have the players roll a new appearance score for their new body. As a rule of thumb this denotes if they look similiar or wholly different... I also have a rule that the appearance score can't be drastically different into the negative aspect, but can improve drastically (the concept being it is a perfectly healthy and unblemished form). If the player just rolls the same appearance then they look similar.

For a good example of male to female and female to male transformations that actually are unique I recommend reading the webcomic elgoonishshive. It will give you some good ideas.