Building a Jedi-like Warblade

[Black_Zawisza]

How would the inhabitants of the Playground go about building a Jedi with a minimum of six (and preferably fourteen, to qualify for ninth-level maneuvers at L20) Warblade levels?

Thanks for any help you can give!

[Scarlet-Devil]

Hmm, just what do you mean by "Jedi-like"? Do you want him to have telekinesis, or mind control, or be able to conjure lightning ('cause warblades aren't very good at that), or do you just want him to be highly athletic and capable of making enormous jumps/deflecting ranged attacks, etc?

[Black_Zawisza]

Hmm, just what do you mean by "Jedi-like"? Do you want him to have telekinesis, or mind control, or be able to conjure lightning ('cause warblades aren't very good at that), or do you just want him to be highly athletic and capable of making enormous jumps/deflecting ranged attacks, etc?
Preferably, all of the above (save for the lightning, 'cause he's NG). I already have the enormous jumps, athleticism, and some attack deflection (Wall of Blades + Manticore Parry maneuvers) but none of the rest.

[mootoall]

Sounds like a Jade Phoenix Mage type character, for the more spellcast-y types of the jedi.

[Gnaeus]

Ask the DM if he can trade a warblade school for desert wind. It isn't one of the stronger schools (because of fire resistance) but thematically appropriate with the flaming swords and all.

[Amnestic]

Preferably, all of the above (save for the lightning, 'cause he's NG).formous jumps, athleticism, and some attack deflection (Wall of Blades + Manticore Parry maneuvers) but none of the rest.

Light-side Jedi can use Force Lightning and its variants perfectly well, even if it is technically a dark-side aligned power.

[Andorax]

My first immediate inclination is Psion/Warblade, and asking the DM if you can adapt the Jade Phoenix to psionics.

Psion 7 has 5 1st, 4 2nd, 4 3rd, 2 4th level powers. If you can qualify for Jade Phoenix Psion (JPP) at PSI (Telepath) 3rd (WBL 3rd), you'll have the following selection of powers by JPP5 (Character 11th):

1: Charm, Psionic, Far Hand, Catfall, Inertial Armor, Create Sound
2: Read Thoughts, Psionic Suggestion, False Sensory Input, Energy Push/Stun
3: Danger Sense, Energy Bolt, Telekinetic Force, Telekinetic Thrust
4: Psionic Modify Memory, Telekinetic Maneuver

By my count, your initiator level at 16th (JPP 10) is 14 (WBL 3 + JPP 10 + 1/2 Psi3), or 18 by 20th, with 4 more Psion levels (and eventual 6th level powers) to draw on.

Sounds relatively jedi-esque to me.

[mootoall]

Oh yeah, Psionics works wonderfully for this too, if you can get that variation. Just make sure you have a Brilliant Energy weapon at the end.

[Zonugal]

What about an Ardent 2/Warblade 2/Ardent 1/Slayer 5/Warblade 1/Slayer 4/Warlbade 1/Slayer 1/Warlbade 3?

BaB: +17, ML: 12 & IL: 3/7/12/15.5

[Endarire]

I made the Diamond Heart PrC (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7686.0) which blends martial maneuvers and psionics.

[Kaje]

Maybe pick up some setting sun maneuvers, refluffing the throws as telekinesis.

[Black_Zawisza]

My first immediate inclination is Psion/Warblade, and asking the DM if you can adapt the Jade Phoenix to psionics.

Psion 7 has 5 1st, 4 2nd, 4 3rd, 2 4th level powers. If you can qualify for Jade Phoenix Psion (JPP) at PSI (Telepath) 3rd (WBL 3rd), you'll have the following selection of powers by JPP5 (Character 11th):

1: Charm, Psionic, Far Hand, Catfall, Inertial Armor, Create Sound
2: Read Thoughts, Psionic Suggestion, False Sensory Input, Energy Push/Stun
3: Danger Sense, Energy Bolt, Telekinetic Force, Telekinetic Thrust
4: Psionic Modify Memory, Telekinetic Maneuver

By my count, your initiator level at 16th (JPP 10) is 14 (WBL 3 + JPP 10 + 1/2 Psi3), or 18 by 20th, with 4 more Psion levels (and eventual 6th level powers) to draw on.

Sounds relatively jedi-esque to me.
Wouldn't it be 8th-level maneuvers and 8th-level powers at L20, though? 3 + 10 + (.5)7 = 16.5 initiator level, and 7 + 8 (extra manifester levels from JPP) = 15 manifester level.

[Kojiro]

Oh yeah, Psionics works wonderfully for this too, if you can get that variation. Just make sure you have a Brilliant Energy weapon at the end.

But then you can't burn through the blast doors or anything.

Joking aside, the only helpful idea I had (throw some psionics in) has already been suggested, multiple times, so all I can really say is good luck. I'm interested in how this turns out, really.

[Cieyrin]

But then you can't burn through the blast doors or anything.

Just make sure you Mountain Hammer with your burning sword. :smallwink:

[Andorax]

Wouldn't it be 8th-level maneuvers and 8th-level powers at L20, though? 3 + 10 + (.5)7 = 16.5 initiator level, and 7 + 8 (extra manifester levels from JPP) = 15 manifester level.

Yes, yes it would be. 8th maneuvers, 8th powers if you went all Psion after 16th, or 7+10+3*.5 = 18 = 9th level maneuvers (and 6th level powers) by 20th by finishing out Warblade instead.

[Essence_of_War]

The ardent can be adapted to help with this, I liked the ardent/slayer sprinkled with WB levels build presented above.

Here are some good ideas for building force-user mantles:

From BG's Ardent Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5871.msg196062#msg196062)

dark_samurai:

So in my process to replicate what a Jedi may be like within the 3.5 system I found the Ardent to be a really good way off pulling it off. So here are some of the mantles that I had (after using the ACF to reconstruct them). Some notes to be had though, the mantles were considerably created lower-powered to establish the power-level as represented in the films and the Magic Mantle is chosen for conflict as to allow access to flame blade wands (lightsabres...) for battle.

The Force (Force Mantle)
Granted Power: While psionically focused, you gain a +1 deflection bonus to your Armor Class.
1.Detect Psionics (1): You detect the presence of psionics.
2.Know Direction & Location (1): You discover where you are and what direction you face.
3.Mindlink (1): You forge a limited mental bond with another creature.
4.Vigor (1): Gain 5 temporary hit points.
5.Psionic Suggestion (2): Compels subject to follow stated course of action.
6.Read Thoughts (2): Detect surface thoughts of creatures in range.
7.Telekinetic Maneuver (4): Telekinetically bull rush, disarm, grapple, or trip your target.
8.Psionic Divination (4): Provides useful advice for specific proposed action.
9.Correspond (4): Hold mental conversation with another creature at any distance.
10.Remote Viewing (4): See, hear, and potentially interact with subjects at a distance.

Conflict (Magic Mantle)
Granted Power: You gain Use Magic Device as a class skill. if you purchased ranks in Use Magic Device or Use Psionic Device at the cross-class rare, you get additional ranks in Use Magic Device or Use Psionic Device as if it had always been a class skill for you. In addition, you always treat magic and psionics as identical, Therefore, powers such as dispel psionics work for both magic and psionics. Most campaigns already treat them in this manner, so this mantle is most useful in campaigns where they are considered different systems.
1.Inertial Armor (1): Tangible field of force provides you with +4 armor bonus to AC.
2.Offensive Precognition (1): Gain +1 insight bonus on your attack rolls.
3.Defensive Precognition (1): Gain +1 insight bonus to AC and saving throws.
4.Offensive Prescience (1): Gain +2 insight bonus on your damage rolls.
5.Hustle (3): Instantly gain a move action.
6.Psychic Containment (3): Temporarily disallow the use of psionics for a single creature.
7.Touchsight (3): Your telekinetic field tells you where everything is.
8.Schism (4): Your partitioned mind can manifest lower-level powers.
9.Energy Adaptation (4): Your body converts energy to harmless light.
10.Psychic Crush (5): Brutally crush subject's mental essence, reducing subject to -1 hit points.

The Light Side (Communication Mantle)
Granted Powers: While psionically focused, you gain a +2 competence bonus on Diplomacy checks and can use the Diplomacy skill more quickly and skillfully than others. When making a rushed Diplomacy check as a full-round action, you take only a -5 penalty on the check.
1.Empathy (1): You know the subject's surface emotions.
2.Bestow Power (2): Subject receives 2 power points.
3.Empathic Transfer (2): Transfer another's wounds to yourself.
4.Sustenance (2): You can go without food and water for one day
5.Serenity (2): Pacify a creature and stop it from fighting.
6.Restore Extremity (5): Return a lost digit, limb, or other appendage to subject.
7.Psionic Restoration (5): Restores level and ability score drains.
8.Psionic Revivify (5): Return the dead to life before the psyche leaves the corpse.
9.Suspend Life (6): Put yourself in a state akin to suspended animation.
10.True Metabolism (8): You regenerate 10 hit points/round.

The Dark Side (Death Mantle)
Granted Powers: You can expend your psionic focus to kill a dying creature, as the death knell spell.
1.Crisis of Breath (3): Disrupt subject's breathing
2.Death Urge (4): Implant a self-destructive compulsion.
3.Mindwipe (4): Subject's recent experiences wiped away, bestowing negative levels.
4.Energy Current (5): Deal 9d6 damage to one foe and half to another foe as long as you concentrate.
5.Crisis of Life (7): Stop subject's heart.
6.Insanity (7): Subject is permanently confused.
7.Mind Seed (8): Subject slowly becomes you.
8.Bend Reality (8): Alters reality within power limits.

[Zonugal]

It has been a while since I re-examined those force mantles. I should re-construct them as fitting now (I think I was a bit hasty in assigning the magic mantle to them).

[Fouredged Sword]

You should expanded knowledge to get touch of healing - cus you know Jedi are all about touching people and healing them.

[FMArthur]

I always figured that a Mind Blade is one of the better 'lightsaber' substitutes around, thematically...

...but I would actually go with a Psychic Warrior build, with a smaller handful of Warblade levels. That way you can get the Soulbound Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) Psychic Warrior feature, which lets you summon a weapon with the Call Weaponry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/callWeaponry.htm) power customized to your choosing and augmented to be better than level-appropriate equipment. It's basically a Mind Blade that is stronger, more customizable and on the chassis of an actual class instead of being the whole class itself. The weapon possesses a "distinctive astral glimmer", so it glows even without using magical properties that make it glow more.

You can use Practiced Manifester to recover up to 4 of your 6 lost Psychic Warrior levels for your augmentation ceiling, and your maneuvers give you more than enough staying power to make up for your fewer power points. You'll probably want at least your last Warblade level (if not more) at the very end of the build. For a more even growth to get most of your toys accessible early, I would take a Warblade level about every 3 levels, starting at 5 to get the last one at 20. If you're starting early I would bump that first Warblade level down to 1st level to improve the Psychic Warrior's slow start. Warblade levels are a perfect complement to pretty much any melee character, so it doesn't really matter that this build doesn't get any sort of dual-progression prestige class.

You could also take a bloodline to do something weird with IL and ML, I suppose. If only Ardents got the Soulbound Weapon ACF...

[Zonugal]

I have had a lot of difficulty with coming up with a suitable lightsaber substitute. As FMArthur mentioned the psychic warrior's soulbound weapon is nice but does cost some levels. The other idea I have played around with is a custom command-activated magic item of Flame Blade but I have run into problems of it not really dealing a lot of damage. Then there are the suggestions for really, expensive magic weapons with a whole slew of magic qualities but I feel that is just too convoluted in its construction.

The thing I do like about the soulbound weapon is that it opens up the option for a 'Jedi' to pick up the Vow of Poverty (which thematically does work well with the idea of a Jedi).

[Fouredged Sword]

Flame blade is a good spell. It lets you dump str somewhat. you can still use all your strikes through it, and that is your main damage. I would see if you can get a serring spell version of it for later in the game, to reduce fire resistance.

[Cieyrin]

Since we're going all Psionics and Initiation, anyways, Sleeping Goddess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5408276) should probably be brought up, considering there's a set of maneuvers that generates mind blades and generally supports having a foot in both systems.

[Zonugal]

Flame blade is a good spell. It lets you dump str somewhat. you can still use all your strikes through it, and that is your main damage. I would see if you can get a serring spell version of it for later in the game, to reduce fire resistance.

A while ago I wanted to put together an adaptation of the seven Jedi combat forms hit a road block with if a variety of the feats would apply to the Flame Blade. Wouldn't Flame Blade be limited to the very few combat feats as spelled out in Complete Arcane?

[FMArthur]

There are a number of fairly easy ways to do lightsabers with just magic gear.


Lightsabers and their compact, inert state Glove of the Master Strategist; Ghostwalk; 3600gp; store and retrieve held items in the glove as free actions. True Strike 1/day. Encompasses all of a Glove of Storing's (DMG; 10000gp) functionality.
OR Ring of Arming; MIC. 5000gp; Store your weapons and armor in the ring to 'swap' with your current equipment as a standard action.


Call your lightsaber because a goddamn Wampa dragged you and your weapon into its frozen cave Lesser Crystal of Return; MIC; 1000gp; Draw your weapon as a free action and call it to your hand from 30ft away as a move action.


The sword itself Masterwork longsword or bastard sword; DMG; 315gp or 335gp; There are a number of different types of lightsabers with different lengths and such, but these will be most common. If your game's greatswords are more realistic and not "fantasy greatswords" that are the size of one's whole torso, it can also represent a lightsaber on the bigger side.
Illuminating property; MIC; +500gp; Glows brightly and illuminates 20ft/20ft. Brilliant Energy might have truly been made with lightsabers in mind, but it actually fails to emulate far too many things you'd use the lightsaber for. You have to have something that can be treated as a solid object that interacts with other solid objects as well as other lightsabers. Sunblades might work, but are just absurdly overpriced.
Flaming property; DMG; +1; Few would dispute that a lightsaber needs to be hot. But this isn't quite enough for all of its burning properties, and is too easily resisted...
Corrosive property; MIC; +1; Yes, corrosive. Lightsabers don't have acid, but it needs acid-typed damage to more closely replicate its effect on nonliving things and fire-resistant things. There are a lot of people who seem to get genuinely upset if lightsabers are not unstoppable superweapons that possess zero limitations, but they really just need to accept that they have restrictions (going by movie canon) and that D&D is an incredibly high-magic fantasy setting among which lightsabers just fit right in. A +X Illuminating, Flaming, Corrosive longsword is really all you need to replicate the activated lightsaber's properties. Deal with it. :smallcool:

[kharmakazy]

Mountain hammer covers a lot of what a lightsaber does to objects.

Mountain hammering with a greatsword cuts through adamantine daggers like adamantine daggers cut through everything else.

Although lightsabers seem like 2 handed light weapons... as if that makes any sense.

[Essence_of_War]

It might help to narrow down precisely what "a jedi" means in the context of your character.

Are there particularly evocative things you want this character to be able to do mechanically?

Some combination of Incarnate/Ardent/Soul Manifester can make a neat and powerful "force powers" focused jedi. You need to make sure you take midnight augmentation, and, as I mentioned above, build reasonable mantles for your ardent side.

I really like Endarire's Diamond Heart PrC, but any reasonable adaptation of the JPM to psionics might work to make a Warblade/Psion type that has access to some of the flashier telekinetic tricks while still keeping a large foot in the melee door.

Even something without psionic powers like:
Cleric 1/Fighter2/Warblade 3/ExoticWeaponMaster1/WB4-16

can feel very "jedi knight" esque if you pick the right maneuvers and devotion feats.

[Doughnut Master]

Bloodstorm Blade perhaps?

Would seem to work for lightsaber throws.

[Andorax]

It occurs to me that the Elven Thinblade (RotW) is a one-handed weapon that is both 18+ crit and finessable (and still does d8, like the longsword).

Might not be a bad starting point either.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is a two handed version of that somewhere. Great for power attack on a dex based character.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Incarnates don't do too bad at this either:

Impulse Boots can be used to simulate the bursts of speed and uncanny reflexes they possess

Crystal Helm, which gives your weapons the Force property, and lets you hit incorporeals without a miss chance

Lucky Dice can be used to boost attacks. Trust in the Force...

If you don't like Lucky Dice, then Lightning Gauntlets gives you Force Lightning

Incarnate Weapon = Lightsaber

Wind Cloak = Deflect Arrows

Silvertongue Mask (to Throat chakra) = Suggestion

[Andorax]

There is a two handed version of that somewhere. Great for power attack on a dex based character.

Thought about the Elven Courtblade...but lightsabers are often wielded one-handed, so that was a no-no.

[Cieyrin]

light saber stuff

On the Sunblade bit, you could always grab the Sun Sword from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, which has the easier to swallow price tag of 3k, which makes it a +1 Bastard Sword that can be wielded as either a bastard or short sword, which ever is more advantageous. Would certainly help with dual wielding sabers without having to worry about Oversized TWF.

Really, a lot of what I think Jedi can do is related to their own skills, as opposed to what their sabers provide. They don't need to be broken six ways to Tuesday to be useful in kicking ass and taking names, as it takes a certain amount of skill to use one without maiming yourself or somebody else. Also, Illuminating seems silly when you can make a magic weapon that illuminates for free as per the Core rules. :smalltongue:

[Andorax]

Also, Illuminating seems silly when you can make a magic weapon that illuminates for free as per the Core rules. :smalltongue:

Depends. "free" light is torch-bright. Illuminating grants full on lantern lighting.

It's up to you which you feel is more lightsabre-appropriate.

[Essence_of_War]

The bastard sword works well on its own also.

Take EWP + a single level in Exotic Weapon Master to pick up the "uncanny blow" feature. Heck, you could even stay a 2nd level for the "flurry" feature and that might work nicely also.

[Cieyrin]

Depends. "free" light is torch-bright. Illuminating grants full on lantern lighting.

It's up to you which you feel is more lightsabre-appropriate.

I never really saw light sabers as being particularly light emitting, really. They seem to produce candle levels from what I saw in the movies, hardly lighting entire rooms via a single saber.

[Essence_of_War]

I agree with Cieyrin.

Think of the best lightsaber scenes from ESB or RotJ. Particularly the scenes with Vader/Luke dueling. They aren't shimmering swords that light up the room like roman candles. They produce a faint, shadowy illumination. More inline with the standard torchlight glow of magical items than the radiant glow of an item with the illumination property.

But frankly, that point is relatively minor in the scheme of the character build :smallsmile:

[FMArthur]

It's really a difference of 500gp. It's a cheap enhancement that you could apply if you have a non-glowy sword you've grown attached to that you want to make into a lightsaber. Obviously free is better and it wouldn't be hard to get either way. I mostly just wanted to address Brilliant Energy there.

[Cieyrin]

It's really a difference of 500gp. It's a cheap enhancement that you could apply if you have a non-glowy sword you've grown attached to that you want to make into a lightsaber. Obviously free is better and it wouldn't be hard to get either way. I mostly just wanted to address Brilliant Energy there.

Still, 500 gp can make a difference if you're on a budget for something expensive. It's good to be trying to address the Brilliant Energy bit, but really what it boils down to is hitting Touch AC and ignoring DR, things we can do with maneuvers (Emerald Razor, Mountain Hammer). It'd be nice if BE could be switched on and off but that's unfortunately not the case and we have to improvise a bit...

[Kaje]

I prefer a hideaway longsword or bastard sword with a level of Incarnum Blade for my lightsabers.

[Andorax]

Budget allowing, would Adamantite be a way to help simulate the ability to carve through just about anything?

Or is this something best left for relying on Stone Dragon maneuvers to simulate?

[Zonugal]

Well how about something like this?

Basic Model Lightsaber ($11,350 gp or $2,769 with a dedicated Lightsaber crafter)
Sunsword with the Sonic, Focus and Deflecting enchantments with a Lesser Crystal of Return coupled with a Glove of the Master Strategist.
A +1, Masterwork Bastard Sword (treated as a Short Sword whenever advantageous) which does a extra 1d4 points of sonic damage on a successful hit and bestows a +4 insight bonus to the wielder's Iaijutsu focus checks while carrying the weapon, even if the weapon is sheathed. The lightsaber may be drawn as a free action and you may call it to your hand from 30ft away as a move action. In addition you can try to knock projectiles aimed at you out of the air. Once per round when you would normally be hit by a ranged weapon, you may make a DC 20 Reflex saving throw (if the ranged weapon has a magical enhancement bonus, the DC increases by that amount). If you succeed, the ranged weapon or projectile deflects away harmlessly. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Intrinsically connected to the Lightsaber is the mystical handling glove which allows you to store and retrieve held items into the glove as free actions as well as activate True Strike 1/day.

With a dedicated lightsaber crafter we can knock that price from $11,350 to
$2,769 by using the Extraordinary Artisan, Magical Artisan (Craft Arms & Armor), Apprentice (Craftsman) and Blazing Forge planar touchstone feats in addition to restricting it to only those with a rank in Knowledge (Religion) and those of the Ardent Class (I'm just selecting for all practical intentions).

$7,750 gp / 50% (3,875 gp) = 3,875 gp / 30% (1,162 gp) = 2, 713 gp / 25% (678 gp) = 2,035 gp / 25% (508 gp) = 1,527 gp / 10% (152 gp) = 1,375 gp / 10% (137 gp) = 1,238 gp

$3,600 gp / 30% (1,080 gp) = 2,520 gp / 25% (630 gp) = 1,890 gp /10% (189 gp) = 1,701 gp /10% (170 gp) = 1,531 gp

[Cieyrin]

Budget allowing, would Adamantite be a way to help simulate the ability to carve through just about anything?

Or is this something best left for relying on Stone Dragon maneuvers to simulate?

Actually, that isn't a bad way for having it breaking stuff when you don't have the maneuver available. Adamantine breaks objects and DR/adamantine, Mountain Hammer breaks anything else you feel like.