[3.5] Best 3-man team?

[Endarire]

Rules
-You'll probably face a variety of challenges meant for a group of at least 4. The GM isn't going nice just because you only have 3 people.
-Everyone starts at ECL1 with a 32 point buy. All official material is allowed except as noted.
-The max number of ranks you can have in any skill is 3 + your HD. Favored (Cityscape) still works as normal.
-No gestalt.
-No alternate skill systems.
-No (nearly) infinite loops.
-No Circle Magic, such as from being a Red Wizard.
-No Leadership, Undead Leadership, Draconic Leadership, cohorts, hirelings, or any creature that would take a share of the XP. (Called creatures are allowed, such as from planar binding and gate.)
-Each character may have a maximum of 3 permanent minions (that is, creatures with a duration of "Permanent" or "Instantaneous"). Animal companions, creatures called via planar binding, simulacrums, creatures bought or trained via Handle Animal, constructs created via feats, psicrystals, and created Undead fall in this category. Spawn chains (such as from Undead) all count against this limit. Creatures gained via dominate, charm, and similar abilities don't count against this limit. Other normal limits apply, like the amount of HD you can rebuke at a time.
-Each character may have a maximum of 2 flaws and 2 traits. Minions like animal companions normally don't get flaws nor traits.

My Party
-Dragonborn Warforged Artificer. May dip Cloistered Cleric1 for Magic Domain. Can be healed by divine, arcane, and Artificer abilities. Group skillsman and trapspringer when a summonling isn't doing it. Also makes the group what they need. Can blast, buff, and scout on the side.

-Strongheart Halfling or Dragonborn Buomann Hi Welcome (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9724.0) Druid. Goes Druid all the way. (Not touching Planar Shepherd.) Group healer, summoner, melee guy (animal companions and summons and eventually Wild Shape), and scout.

-Dragonborn Whisper Gnome Illusionist. Goes Shadowcraft Mage ASAP (preferably @2) using Heigthen Spell and Metamagic School Focus: Heighten. Eventually takes Incantatrix and other full casting PrCs for maximum goodness!

[mootoall]

I wouldn't go Artificer, because you should already have a Cleric with the Magic domain for UMDing wands. I'd go Cleric (With Initiate of Mystra feat), Druid (Focus on animal companion buffing and summoning) and Conjurer (Focus on battlefield control and direct damage).

[Retech]

Three Venerable Loredrake Greater Spellrite Spellhoarding White Dragonspawn Abomination Kobold wizards.

Everything else are details, but having four or five extra wizard levels ontop of your HD for only +1 LA is the main gist.

[Zonugal]

I'm going to go with a classic three-man team.

Ghaele savage progression; grants the team equivalent cleric casting (with the air, animal, chaos, good, and plant domains) in addition to some awesome racial hit die & skills.

Artificer; grants the team trap-finding and through the Spell-Storing Item infusion he should have the versatility to over-come a variety of obstacles.

Crusader; grants the team some muscle as well as team-based benefits through devoted spirit & white raven maneuvers.

Oh by the way they will look like this:
http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/avengers-thor-captain-america-iron-man.jpg

[CTrees]

I notice you did not ban the thrallherd. Probably an omission, but just sayin'.

I'm sure one could do better, but my choice would be three druids of different focuses, because I've always wanted to see how an all druid party would be to play.

[TroubleBrewing]

*snip*

Best punchline I've seen all week. You win a cookie.

[Zonugal]

To be fair they are my go to 3-man team...

[Midnight_v]

I'm going to go with a classic three-man team.

Ghaele savage progression; grants the team equivalent cleric casting (with the air, animal, chaos, good, and plant domains) in addition to some awesome racial hit die & skills.

Artificer; grants the team trap-finding and through the Spell-Storing Item infusion he should have the versatility to over-come a variety of obstacles.

Crusader; grants the team some muscle as well as team-based benefits through devoted spirit & white raven maneuvers.

Oh by the way they will look like this:
http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/avengers-thor-captain-america-iron-man.jpg
+1
Dude. You win via awesomness. Bravo

[Endarire]

Retech: From what source are those templates/racial traits/modifiers to Koboldhood?

[Luckmann]

I would like to go with three Pathfinder druids, of different Archetypes.

[Retech]

The templates are from a long time ago, so I don't particularly remember exactly where they came from. :smallsmile:

[mabriss lethe]

a factotum, a factotum and a factotum?

[Soranar]

Your group is missing a Face (high CHA character with access to social skills and the ranks to use them).

To me that's a big deal, lacking noncombat options is a large drawback. Although, in your current party, there's only 1 easy tweak I can think of : convince the gnome illusionist to play a beguiler instead. It's not a very big difference in style, just a minor debuf in casting ability in exchange for lots of skills.

My favorite 3 person party would be the following.

The Commander

-tanks
-is the party's face
-fluff wise it makes total sense for him to tell everyone what to do and be in charge

Race: human (for the lack of multiclassing penalties, extra feat and skillpoints)

STATS

STR 16
DEX 8 (dump)
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 8 (dump, you get your CHA to will saves anyway)
CHA 14 (helps with CHA skills and some abilities)

A human Bard 1 /Crudaser X

With the feats *able learner*, *extra music* and *song of the White Raven* he becomes the party's face/meatshield and buffer. Song of the White raven makes him able to inspire courage as a swift action, 1 level of bard makes him able to do so 5 times a day (usually enough). Eventually uses white raven abilities to give more actions to others.

skills:

-maxed out
UMD, diplomacy, gather information, bluff, intimidate, concentration

-leftover points are used on utility skills like sense motive 5 to get +2 to diplomacy and balance 5 to prevent being owned by balance checks.


The Smart Guy

-Does most of the mentally challenging tasks
-Spontaneous arcane caster axed on battlefield control that eventually gets access to summons and evocations too
-Trapfinder/general skillmonkey

A Whisper Gnome Beguiler /Shadowcraft mage

STATS (32 pts)

STR 6
DEX 18
CON 16
INT 18
WIS 8
CHA 6 (dump)

skills: (6 + 4 from INT)

-maxed out: hide and move silently, search, disable device, concentration, spellcraft (can be useful to identify spells), sleight of hand (great way to conceal your spellcasting with the appropriate skill tricks), open locks (knock comes pretty late)

-the rest in utility skills (notably all knowledge skills get at least 1 to be able to make checks)

The Treehugger

-does the healing
-serves as a secondary meatshield (through his pet, his summons and eventually himself)
-fills the outdoors department of skills and fills in the scout role through spot and listen
-secondary battlefield controller (when faced with creatures immune to mind-affecting effects, before the beguiler gets shadow conjuration tricks)

obviously, this is a human druid

STATS

STR 8 (becomes irrelevant at level 5)
DEX 8 (becomes irrelevant at level 5)
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 18
CHA 8 (dump)

skills:

-maxed out
survival, spot, listen, concentration, knowledge nature, heal

the rest for utility skills

In effect, this party gives you the following

1 city expert, 1 dungeon expert and 1 outdoors expert

In combat you face 2 full fighters (the crusader + the druid's pet) and 3 medium combattants (the druid himself + 2 summons) all buffed by inspire courage as the beguiler controls the battle.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

To be honest, a Beguiler and Druid alone cover everything you need at level 1 except for extra bodies in combat (though that animal companion can be a pretty decent tank). I guess I'd throw in the mailman on top, or maybe a Wings of Flurry abusing spellwarp sniper; similar idea.

[The Gilded Duke]

Hmm, for 3.5 I'd go with a Spellthief, a Cleric, and a Wizard.
Probably all human. Have the Spell Thief go with Improved Initiative.
Have all of them spend two feats to pick up White Raven Tactics.

Have the Spellthief steal voluntary spells from the Cleric and Wizard.
Spellthief handles skills, and can cast Cleric, Wizard, and Spellthief Spells.
Have all three of them juggle turns.
Pick up Crowns of the White Raven: White Raven Tactics when you can.

The Wizard can Bind outsiders for the Spellthief to tap for more spells. The Cleric can rebuke / control undead for even more.

[noparlpf]

Go for pure PHB. Druid, Cleric, Fighter. You've got two full casters, a full healer, a secondary healer, one pure melee class, and two secondary melee classes.

Alternatively, three Chameleons. Everyone gets to be a different thing every day. (No idea what the effectiveness would be like, I just thought it would be amusing. Make them triplets to increase the fun.)

[Psyren]

I'm going to go with a classic three-man team.

Ghaele savage progression; grants the team equivalent cleric casting (with the air, animal, chaos, good, and plant domains) in addition to some awesome racial hit die & skills.

Artificer; grants the team trap-finding and through the Spell-Storing Item infusion he should have the versatility to over-come a variety of obstacles.

Crusader; grants the team some muscle as well as team-based benefits through devoted spirit & white raven maneuvers.

Oh by the way they will look like this:
http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/avengers-thor-captain-america-iron-man.jpg

*applauds*

You win a number of internets yet to be determined for cleverness

[Zonugal]

Man I am cleaning up shop in this thread.

[Curious]

Human Factotum, Human Binder, Human Totemist.

They are whatever party you want them to be.

[Eurus]

Half-Orc Truenamer, Elf Monk, Tiefling Healer. Monk DPSes, truenamer does battlefield control, healer makes you invincible. I shouldn't have to say it but yes, I'm kidding. Until 2/3s of the party eventually get Gate and the monk stands around doing his BMX Biker and Angel Summoner impression, but that's a different story...

[Eldariel]

*shrug* Artificer, RKV, Wizard. Guess one could make the Wiz an Initiate or something. Druid would also be a reasonable choice, to be sure. RKV covers facecraftery, Artificer covers traps and all that, Wizo has the usual Knowledge-shizzle and all that. Stupid-good equipment, among the best levels 1s in the game (Wizard-buffed Crusader) and all your bases covered.

[Mirai]

1 Faustian Pact abusing Venerable Loredrake Greater Spellrite Spellhoarding White Dragonspawn Abomination Kobold wizard, with a level (as close to infinite as makes no odds) spell fueling a bunch of reserve feats.
He deals damage, and, through elementals, gets us through early levels. He's also a wizard with a bunch of extra levels, so... He goes into IotSV when he levels up in order to survive betterer.

1 Phaerimm Sorcerer symbiote riding a Dominated Psionic Artificer. He wins the game at higher levels even more than our superempowered wizard. He's allowed both magic and psionic items, thanks to Magic/Psi transparency, and abuses scrolls, dorjes, etc, and murders the action economy. The Phaerimm sorc is really just because symbiotes are fun and I like Phaerimm. The Phaerimm might as well take Ultimate Magus with that feat that lets spontaneous casters prepare spells for more fun and extra sorc levels. Also, PAO (twice) everyone into (That construct divine thing that is a copy of someone and chases down individuals). They have an extraordinary power that lets them PAO into anything, and keep all of their powers. So PAO into them, then back into whatever you were. Or a Dragon/Ethergaunt, really.
I haven't read SS in a long time, so i'm not sure about what the size limitations do - I think Phaerimm hatchling is small enough for a large creature, though, and by level sixish, when it gets dominate, it's easy to spring for an all day Enlarge Person. Well, it is for this party.

1 Fire-souled Half-Elf Illiterate Diplomancing Bard to control the other two, and the world.

Anything I missed?

[Divide by Zero]

Cloistered Cleric with the Trickery domain, Cloistered Cleric with the Kobold domain, Cloistered Cleric with the Magic and Spell domains.

Edit: oh, and put the Travel domain in there somewhere. Gotta have teleports.

[deuxhero]

1:Human Conjurer/Malconvoker, ban illusion and transmutation: Provides front line fighters and trap finding, also serves as your face (they need bluff anyways).
2:Changeling Dual Specialist (Transmutation+Illusion)/some PRC that works with the specialization, ban conjuration, evocation, and abjuration: Uses save or dies, and knock for anything locked.
3:Human (Lesser Tiefling works as well) Diviner/Loremaster, ban enchantment: Provide utility spells and buffs, and UMDs wands for healing (the most efficient method anyways). If you can get Find Traps on your spell list, you can be a traditional trap finder.


There!

[Psyren]

Mine would be Psionic Artificer (Trap/Skillmonkey), Tashalatora Ardent/Meditant (Meatshield), and StP Erudite (Everything else).

And I know the OP banned circle magic, but I'd Metaconcert with them anyway :smalltongue:

[Draz74]

At the moment, I'm feeling


Kobold Bard / Lyric Thaumateurge / Virtuoso / Sublime Chord (healer, Dragonfire Inspiration-style buffer, archer, party face)
Warforged Shaper / Constructor (meatshield-summoner, utility caster)
Whisper Gnome Factotum / Warblade (trapmonkey, wilderness skills, Diamond Mind-fueled melee striker)

[dspeyer]

The tricky thing is getting the power at all levels. A lot of pure casters don't really shine at level 1. My proposal:

Crusader / Bard / JPM / Sublime Chord / JPM: Tank, face, buffer, utility caster

Psion (shaper): battlefield control, blasting, knowledge, astral construct

Druid: summoning, then tanking, then SoDing, also perception and healing

The low levels involve a knight in shining armor leading a pack of wolves and blobs with tactics and song. The high levels involve three different full casters.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Strongheart Water Halfling, Druid; 2 flaws, Quick trait; Greenbound Summoning, Companion Spellbond, Wild Cohort, Improved Toughness at 1st; Natural Bond at 3rd; Natural Spell at 6th; doesn't really matter after that. Use Unguent of Timelessness + Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) (turning) spell foci to get Turn Undead just as good as a Cleric. Every day put (Lesser Rod of Extended) Snowsight on everyone, keep (Lesser Rod of Extended) Obscuring Snow cast, and you've got the trump card vs pretty much any encounter from 3rd level on.

Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake, Wizard (Conjurer) 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Incantatrix 10/ Mindbender 1/ Paragnostic Apostle 4; Abrupt Jaunt ACF, Martial Wizard for Improved Initiative, Draconic Rite of Passage for Charm Person, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage; Wild Cohort, Draconic Reserve, Mindsight, Iron Will via the Otyugh Hole, Metamagic feats, etc. Use Cooperative Metamagic for Persistent buffs on allies, Metamagic Effect for Persistent self-buffs. He has HD+2 Wizard spellcasting at levels 1-5, HD+3 Wizard spellcasting at levels 6+, so from 1st level he can cast Obscuring Snow and Command Undead. Note that there's no limit to how many Command Undead minions he can have, so get a wand and go find mindless meat shields.

Illumian (Krau-anything), Beguiler 1/ Wizard (Conjurer) 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Mindbender 1/ Unseen Seer 4; two flaws, Abrupt Jaunt; Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler, Versatile Spellcaster at 1st; any metamagic at 3rd; more metamagic at 6th+; Mindsight. He can use Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast any Wizard spell he knows (i.e. has read and made the Spellcraft check to understand, regardless of whether it's in his spellbook) of up to 6th level, plus the Beguiler spell list including 6th level spells. With Able Learner he's as capable a skillmonkey as any other character, he's probably got a spell for any situation they'll find themselves in, and he can even use the same Command Undead and (Extended) Obscuring Snow tricks as the above.

Between the Druid and his animal companion, two Wild Cohorts, and two Batman Wizards, they should be able to walk all over pretty much any encounter.

[Coidzor]

Bard > Virtuoso/Heartfire Fanner > Sublime Chord > More Virtuoso/Heartfire Fanner

Beguiler > Shadowcraft Mage

Cloistered Cleric > Clericy PrCs

See the thing about fullcasters and level 1 is, they don't have a lot to spend their gold on other than mules. And can generally turn those mules into something useful even if it sets a few skillpoints into Handle Animal on fire to do so or requires spending something like 9 gp per stablehand to help train the mules. And that's even without taking the wild cohort feat into account.

So, for this group, it boils down to this, a +4 bonus from both other party members aiding another +2 from handle animal kit +2(minimum) charisma = +8 modifier minimum which should be enough to get 3 warbeast mules for 8 gp each per PC to take care of melee damage output at levels 1-3. Or for more robust muley minions, have them each get a magebred mule and a regular mule for the same cost as three mules.

...If they don't all just take Wild Cohort instead at level 1 for 3 riding dogs that one of them can warbeast while the other two make warbeast mules that if they survive just get relegated to protecting camp/loot & hauling loot after a certain point.

Beguiler and Bard and Cloistered Cleric can all share skill and facey duties, Beguiler covering the trapmonkeying at the starting gates.

Bard takes care of (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mule.htm)the animals (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) and summons into machines of death (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0) and takes on an increasing mantle of casteriness as he levels.

Cloistered Cleric uses DMM and such to take over the beatstick role if that actually becomes necessary or goes Malconvoker to fill that role and get other casty goodness from summons' SLAs. Basically, he's got options.

Beguiler does arcane spell support and then achieves slightly less phenomenal cosmic power than a wizard by being a shadowcraft mage.

Of course...Cloistered Cleric/Druid/Wizard with the right domains on the Cleric to get him skillfully inclined and the animal companion + the wild cohort feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) + warbeast fills the whole beatstick role's hole rather well. PrCs are just gravy past that. Heck, they could each take a downgrade to their character power by dipping Heartfire Fanner and still be kicking it.

I believe the Tier 3 equivalent would be something like

Beguiler/Bard ->Arcane/Skill/battlefield control
Shugenja -> Divine/Healy/battlefield control/blasting/some skills
Wildshaping Mystic Ranger with sword of the arcane order -> Fighting/wild empathy for hunting down minions/dual list casting/other skills

With two flaws, they could all pretty easily afford wild cohorts to make up for any melee weaknesses or just give them flying mounts.

[Amphetryon]

My team:

Henjiyoki (sp?) Sparrow Warlock/Chameleon: artillery, face, and JOAT.
Necropolitan Dread Necromancer/Crusader/Jade Phoenix Mage: Tank, minionmancer, and party healer.
Elven Generalist Wizard/Anima Mage: Everything else.
Everyone on the team uses one of the flaws for Tomb-Tainted Soul.

[Retech]

1 Faustian Pact abusing Venerable Loredrake Greater Spellrite Spellhoarding White Dragonspawn Abomination Kobold wizard, with a level (as close to infinite as makes no odds) spell fueling a bunch of reserve feats.
He deals damage, and, through elementals, gets us through early levels. He's also a wizard with a bunch of extra levels, so... He goes into IotSV when he levels up in order to survive betterer.

1 Phaerimm Sorcerer symbiote riding a Dominated Psionic Artificer. He wins the game at higher levels even more than our superempowered wizard. He's allowed both magic and psionic items, thanks to Magic/Psi transparency, and abuses scrolls, dorjes, etc, and murders the action economy. The Phaerimm sorc is really just because symbiotes are fun and I like Phaerimm. The Phaerimm might as well take Ultimate Magus with that feat that lets spontaneous casters prepare spells for more fun and extra sorc levels. Also, PAO (twice) everyone into (That construct divine thing that is a copy of someone and chases down individuals). They have an extraordinary power that lets them PAO into anything, and keep all of their powers. So PAO into them, then back into whatever you were. Or a Dragon/Ethergaunt, really.
I haven't read SS in a long time, so i'm not sure about what the size limitations do - I think Phaerimm hatchling is small enough for a large creature, though, and by level sixish, when it gets dominate, it's easy to spring for an all day Enlarge Person. Well, it is for this party.

1 Fire-souled Half-Elf Illiterate Diplomancing Bard to control the other two, and the world.

Anything I missed?

Can't you just have the Kobold without the Loredrake and put it with the dominated artificer?

[BlueInc]

Half-Orc Truenamer, Elf Monk, Tiefling Healer. Monk DPSes, truenamer does battlefield control, healer makes you invincible. I shouldn't have to say it but yes, I'm kidding. Until 2/3s of the party eventually get Gate and the monk stands around doing his BMX Biker and Angel Summoner impression, but that's a different story...

Trollface.jpg?

[Luckmann]

BlueInc rolls Spot.
BlueInc rolls 1.
BlueInc critically fails.

:smallwink:

[Mirai]

Can't you just have the Kobold without the Loredrake and put it with the dominated artificer?

Hmm? What do you mean?

[Retech]

Well Kobold without Loredrake gives like five free sorc levels.

I was wondering if the dominated came from the sorcerers or the race though.

[Xefas]

This all seems like a lot of trouble. Why not just collapse the quantum substrata of this iteration of the universe and restructure it into a variation slightly in the future in which you have already been successful with your group. Once you've integrated yourself, you can just remember the team composition you used and attain whatever post-hoc satisfaction there is to be had from the game.

It's a little more math, but doesn't require looking through so many books for different feats and all that garbage.

[Acanous]

My party would be a wiz (Conj) with abrupt jaunt into malconvoker, a trapkiller barbarian/dungeoncrashing fighter(Dip 2) into champion of gwyn with wild cohort, and a cloistered cleric with wild cohort.

your party should be effective at everything without facerolling over the adventure. Also easier to roleplay than supreme cheese :p

[Mirai]

The Loredrake simply gives another 2 sorc/wiz levels.
Kobold has 1 level of sorcerer. 2 from greater/lesser spellright, 2 from loredrake, 1 from white dragonspawn. These are converted to 6 levels of wizard by Spellhoarding. Add riddled into that for more Int.

The important thing is that my party can take on just about whatever the GM throws at you. Also, I want to test it out. Anybody want to write up a arena party to fight it?

Fun addition: Take another spell with that faustian pact to add a ninth level spell which you fill via Extra Spell with Dominate Monster for pets. Dominate a dinosaur for symbiote fun.

[Petrocorus]

Cloistered Cleric with the Trickery domain, Cloistered Cleric with the Kobold domain, Cloistered Cleric with the Magic and Spell domains.

What do the kobold do ?



My team:
Henjiyoki (sp?) Sparrow Warlock/Chameleon: artillery, face, and JOAT.


What is JOAT?

[Coidzor]

What do the kobold do ?

Trapfinding ability without having to cast Find Traps, I believe. Maybe some other stuff too like making disable device and search class skills.


Well Kobold without Loredrake gives like five free sorc levels.

Um. No? :smallconfused: Dragonwrought Kobold with Loredrake+Draconic Rite of Passage is like... +3 levels of sorcerer casting.

Non-Loredrake Kobolds can only get the Draconic Rite of Passage and maybe White Dragonspawn.


What is JOAT?

Jack of All Trades, I believe.

[Divide by Zero]

Trapfinding ability without having to cast Find Traps, I believe. Maybe some other stuff too like making disable device and search class skills.

Right. It's basically a rogue with real spells instead of UMD.

[Amphetryon]

Coidzor is correct; between Warlock's various invocations and Chameleon's versatility, there's no 'hat' that choice can't wear (though some hats fit better or are more stylish than others).

[Retech]

Trapfinding ability without having to cast Find Traps, I believe. Maybe some other stuff too like making disable device and search class skills.



Um. No? :smallconfused: Dragonwrought Kobold with Loredrake+Draconic Rite of Passage is like... +3 levels of sorcerer casting.

Non-Loredrake Kobolds can only get the Draconic Rite of Passage and maybe White Dragonspawn.



Jack of All Trades, I believe.

Sorry, I mean Kobold without Spellhoarding gets +2 from the kobold stuff and Dragonspawn Abominations get a variable amount of sorcerer levels, up to three I believe, which is based on a roll.

However, considering I am assemblying my perfect 3-man team, I'm assuming that the dice maxed out and I got the +5 total sorcerer stuff.

[Merk]

Warblade focusing on White Raven, Warblade focusing on Golden Lion, Warblade focusing on Scarlet Bravura.

[SilverClawShift]

Three bards.

Because sometimes losing with style is more fun than winning could ever be.

[Coidzor]

Three bards.

Because sometimes losing with style is more fun than winning could ever be.

No, you'd just be too stylish for the world to deal with.

Especially once you got dragonfire inspiration up and got some right proper minions.

[Divide by Zero]

And then they form a band and tour the world, stopping evil as they rock out.

They call themselves the Dragon Force.