Legion of undeath: too many undeads, what to do?

[drack]

Hope this is the right thread for this :smallbiggrin:

OK, simple question, you have a level 21 necromancer, how would you spend 500,000 HD of undead, lets say 300,000 through animate dead, 200,000 through rebuke/command (slightly unrealistic numbers, but more in the sense that there are zeroes rather than 6s, 5s, and 4s... trust me I'v made one before) So how would you build your legions of undeath? Imagine you are in some position to get any sorts of undeads, feel free to use some homebrew, but not stuff that's obviously broken. Sorry to ask, but I tried making one (honest effort for a real military with a few hours into it only to find I had forgotten a few zeroes on the end :smallannoyed:) anyways mostly just wanna see how everyone else goes about it. assume no chain commanding since you have enough HD to make it obsolete... well it never really is, but you don't want half your legion rebelling so you know what I mean. Personally I went for looking awesome (shadows coming like mad out of the shadows in which they reside, trained vampire assault squads, ghosts coming en mass to take over the commoner population, and a few undead dragons and random useful/exotic undeads just for the kicks of giving it the flavor of all sorts of undeads swarming over your head), but as I said I was a few zeroes short and am running out of ideas. Remember that commanding undead is to rebuking as destroying is to turning, so commanding requires you to have twice or more the HD of the undead so non-animate-dead undeads are limited to a 10HD max :smallfrown:

[Flickerdart]

Typically, it's always better to have few Undead with high HD than many with low HD, so grab as many of those, and make sure they are able to create spawn. Then, have them create some spawn. HD limits, what's that?

[drack]

Well techically according to the rules you can only command undeads that could be destroyed by a good cleric of equal level, so you can only command undead via the command undead ability who's HD are less than or equal to half your level (in the case of a level 21 this limit is 10HD).
Edit: so while you can have your 84HD skeletons/zombies assuming your DM ditches the 20HD limit on these or lets you homebrew a spell without these limits), but you can only have up to a 10HD vampire/ghost/ect.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, but that doesn't matter - as long as you control the parents (through a method other than Rebuking, probably), the children are yours to command as well.

[TheCountAlucard]

Well techically according to the rules you can only command undeads that could be destroyed by a good cleric of equal level, so you can only command undead via the command undead ability who's HD are less than or equal to half your level (in the case of a level 21 this limit is 10HD).Plus, aren't there magic items to boost that effective cap? I don't recall the names of any off-hand, but I could've sworn there were some...

[drack]

the children never have more HD than the parents except in the cases where the spawn aren't under the parents control, and as such it matters vary much if you want anything that can scratch someone your own size.

I know there are some to boost the overall cap, but not your effective level for the purposes of commanding and rebuking undeads :smallconfused: maybe I just didn't see them...?

Edit: admittedly overexcited necromancers-to-be skip reading this limit, but it does still exist...

Edit 2: well I suppose if a + to effective turning level item was adapted... I guess one could be made.

[TheCountAlucard]

well I suppose if a + to effective turning level item was adapted... I guess one could be made.It doesn't need to be adapted - turning and rebuking are effectively the same thing for those purposes.

I'll admit, the wording's not the greatest where they discuss this, but it's the only thing we've got, so... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead)

[drack]

I know, but if you're exchanging two similar yet slightly different things on an item (like arcane and divine) it becomes an adaption no? Anywho thank ye for the idea. :smallbiggrin:

[TheCountAlucard]

I know, but if you're exchanging two similar yet slightly different things on an item (like arcane and divine) it becomes an adaption no?Switching between arcane and divine is a pretty big thing, usually.

A Wizard can't pick up a divine scroll of Plane Shift and cast it, because it'll be all these fancy prayers and such. A Cleric can't pick up an arcane scroll of Plane Shift and cast it, because it'll be these weird diagrams and such.

But a Cleric of Pelor and a Cleric of Nerull can both pick up a phylactery of undead turning and use it - the only difference is that for one, his holy might is bolstered to destroy undead, while the other surges with malevolence and cows undead to obey him. See my point? :smallconfused:

EDIT: Though the fact that the phylactery apparently radiates good regardless of who's using it is amusing. :smallamused:

[drack]

I see your point, sorry I was thinking in terms of things that sacrifice spell slots in which case it becomes a much smaller thing as even though they have different spells they have similar spells/day :smallbiggrin:

Edit: also it says ' An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning check', so it's not just the same item, but another designed for evil energy :smallwink:

[Worlok]

Hey dawg, we heard you got lots of undead and don't know what to do with all of them? I say, build a (http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/12936417/) computer (http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/12939196/)! :smalltongue: (Please, noone barge in and ruin a good thing with computer science. :smallsigh:)

[Jack_Simth]

Remember that commanding undead is to rebuking as destroying is to turning, so commanding requires you to have twice or more the HD of the undead so non-animate-dead undeads are limited to a 10HD max :smallfrown:
There are ways around this. Certain spells and magic items can boost your effective Turn/Rebuke level. A... say, Talasmin of Undead Mastery (Magic Item Compendium) can increase your effective Cleric level by 4 once per day (held item). Alternately, you can find ways to apply a penalty to the target's Turn Resistance... effectively reducing their hit dice for the purposes of Commanding them. Like, say, a Lyre of the Restful Soul (Libris Mortis) which applies a -4 penalty to the turn resistance of undead in the area.

Combine the two, and you can Command a Lich Wizard-12... or a Lich Cleric-12... or a Lich Druid (?!?!?!)-12.

[drack]

increasing effective cleric level we got, lowering turn resistance does the same (for how much? Edit: 3000gp, enough to make it much cheaper, but only for 10 rounds :smallfrown:), druids can't be undeads, and an undead computer is actually a rather awesome idea :smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

increasing effective cleric level we got, lowering SR does the same (for how much? Edit: 3000gp, enough to make it much cheaper, but only for 10 rounds :smallfrown:), druids can't be undeads, and an undead computer is actually a rather awesome idea :smalltongue:
Turn Resistance, not Spell Resistance. Both of them are 3k, which is quite cheap for Epic use. Fun thing about Turning / Rebuking, though: They're Instant effects. You check Effective Cleric Level and Effective Hit Dice at the event, not continuously. You may need to have them go down for when you actually Command them... but afterwards, all you're worried about is total effective hit dice....

Oh yes, and if you plan on getting into Epic magic, Spellcasting undead (like Liches) are very, very useful for you. Especially with the apparent numbers you'll be able to get...

[drack]

true (meant turn resist, guess I misstypped :smallbiggrin:) but recall that things like Talasmin of Undead Mastery that can only give the +4 1/day aren't as useful for things where you need to command more than once/day

Edit: I don't usually use epic magic :smallcool:

[Jack_Simth]

true (meant turn resist, guess I misstypped :smallbiggrin:) but recall that things like Talasmin of Undead Mastery that can only give the +4 1/day aren't as useful for things where you need to command more than once/day

Edit: I don't usually use epic magic :smallcool:
So get ten of each for 60k. What's your budget?

[drack]

well I was operating on the hypothetical of any epic necromancer. So for the basic level 21 you get what was it, 975, 974 thousand? :smallconfused:

[Bob the DM]

I've always been meaning to ask... what exactly gives everyone the impression that just controling the parent vampire means you control their children with any degree of certainty? Since one of the requirements for vampire lords is to survive an assassination attempt by one of your vampires, clearly that implies that your control is not absolute. Also the manner and extent of your control is not explicitely implied. As a dm, I would have a field day with anyone arrogant enough to assume they could control an infinate number of powerful creatures. In fact, I would seriously wonder just how extensive your control is for directly created undead spawn with intelligence scores. I like how everyone assumes that they're essentially mindless creature that respond to your intentions perfectly.

Anywho, it seems he's asking specifically for a massive army for his HD specifications.

[Jack_Simth]

I've always been meaning to ask... what exactly gives everyone the impression that just controling the parent vampire means you control their children with any degree of certainty? With most spawning undead where control is specified, it says "under the command of" and "enslaved"

No, the specific degree of control is not clear. Most DM's take that as "follows orders" and will treat it similar to Domination, just because that's the closest thing that bears explicit rules.

[drack]

Well I would love to answer that question:
Intelligent undeads are still bent to your will and you can cause them to preform every action with such commands though chances are they will disdain being tugged like puppets on a string. With the less intelligent varieties it is simpler as they get quickly accustomed to following the commands of their better, but if they die... ever well lets just say that there's a reason why there are as many spells to hurt undeads as to help them on the necromancy list :smallamused: I personally prefer not chain commanding, and believe that if I do so I should treat a vampire lord or the such with the respect befitting a lord even if I do hold the true power, for than they are less likely to try anything, and when you have an epic vampire that wants to get you... well they tend to get their way :smallamused:

Players commonly act as if they have commanded all undeads to never harm them, and to command all their spawn to do the same. Another thing to keep in mind is that commands are verbal (or telepathic or whatnot) meaning that the controller must be close enough to the parent, and that it must than relay it's commands down the chain (and there are some DM tricks that severely limit the players, though it wouldn't be such a bad idea in some cases. Also note that it takes a standard action to command undead so I commonly pre-command my undeads to do 'z' at 'x' signal such that I don't really need to bother as much, though this is time consuming as it essentially adds up to teaching a new language to it, and even aided by the compulsion in a command I would assume this process would take at the vary least a few hours (depending on how much you're teaching them.)

Also note that technically intelligent undeads are still capable of finding ways around your orders. Overall though DMs don't over exploit it there except in rare games in which they decide a cocky player needs to learn the true horrors of what they command. (and to show them to not just take the half that aids undeads) :smallwink:

Edit: or I suppose a nice DM may treat it like dominate and give you permanent control over their minds :smallconfused:

[Sception]

OP: are you going dungeon delving? Is your party gathering an army to carve out your own fledgling empire? Spinning a web of subterfuge with which to twist the course of civilization to your whim? All of these can be augmented by a mess of undead, but each of them calls for a different strategy.

In all cases, you'll want to use Polymorph Any Object to permanently turn whatever corpses you have lying around permanently into the corpses you desire to animate. You'll want to use Plague of Undead instead of Animate dead, both to keep costs down and to max out your servants' hit points per hit die. You'll want to look for base forms with elemental immunities, extraordinary qualities and attacks, good proficiencies, strong base strength and dexterity, and many racial hit die. Dragons make excellent starting points thanks to the superior skeletal and zombie dragon templates from the draconomicon, although their size may prove to be restrictive for some uses. Remember that as a general rule, skeletons are better, but zombies keep movement modes. Note that if the base form could fly without wings, so can the skeleton, so skeletal nightmares and the like can still fly. Stack on as many templates onto the base corpse as your DM will allow, except for fiendish - that can be stacked afterwords via the vile death spell (not sure of exact name - its in heroes of horror), although there's a slight xp fee.

Epic level dungeon delving calls for a few tough undead of sizes large or smaller, each ordered to follow the commands of another party member ("Awaken Undead" can allow them to understand such commands if the DM rules them too complicated for mindless minions). This allows you to have a powerful core of pseudo-cohorts without unduly slowing the game. The exact creatures to use kind of depends on the ally your giving them to, try to find something that will be a good fit, augmenting their abilities or offsetting some weakness, maybe a flying mount for the fighter, or a fast flanking buddy for the rogue.


For a military campaign, you want the leadership feat to pick up a clerical cohort and as many third level wizards and fourth level sorcerers as you can get - each burning all their second level spell slots on 'command undead' - a no save dominate on unintelligent undead (note: don't awaken undead controlled in this manner) that lasts for days, build tons of 20 hit dice skeletal and zombie monstrosities as siege engines (note that the draconomicon templates mentioned above lack those unruly hit dice cap, and zombie dragons don't double cost you on hit dice, either), then have them order said engines to follow the commands of your more elite commanders, forming deadly strike units (if your DM rules 'follow that guys orders' to be too complicated for mindless undead, you can pass out some wands, eternal if possible, of 'undead lieutenant' from the spell compendium). The best starting bodies for these shock troops are dragons, but giants are also good choices here.

Support these shock troops with some blocks of skeletal archers. Fit cages full of uncontrolled small and tiny size zombies, made with corpse crafter and destruction retribution if possible, into the chests of your bruisers to soak a few enemy turning attempts. The most hit dice for the creature size is what you're looking for here.

As for your commanders - those are wights, probably, the initial wight created by killing some poor fool with negative levels and then commanded by your clerical cohort if you can't do that yourself. That wight creates others and orders them to slay enemies with their weapons, rather then their special abilities - you don't want to deal with too many wights, or with wights that go uncontrolled because some link in a chain died. The initial wight stays home. In a similar way you acquire an initial shadow (if the DM doesn't provide you with one, you can summon them with summon undead V, have it kill someone to make a new, non-summoned shadow, and then the cleric can rebuke that). From their you can create regiments that advance beneath the ground and take your enemies by surprise from below. Use sparingly, try to only send them in when you know the enemy can't do anything about them, as they will make excess shadows and you will wind up with uncontrolled shadows about if you're not careful.

Have living soldiers, if any are willing to work with you, disguise themselves as wights and ghouls in an attempt to throw off anti-undead affects. Similarly, if you can handle the investment, craft yourself some flesh, bone, gravestone, and dragon bone golems.


In a political campaign, grab the spell haunt-shift from Libris Mortis and haunt-shift some awakened undead or chain-controlled wights and shadows into gifts for rivals, enemies, and allies alike. Make sure your shadows and wights are unable to physically manifest, though, or they'll quickly give themselves and you away with a rapidly spreading plague of spawning undead. Also look into the mother cyst feat and spell line from libris mortis - kind of weak in a delving or military campaign, but in a political campaign the ability to scry your living underlings whenever you wish is invaluable, and nothing keeps a toady in line like the knowledge that you could make them explode from anywhere whenever you felt like it.

[drack]

Yeah I originally had made the character that had made me wonder this for political intrigue, and had been following quite a few of those before. I personally avoid chain controlling, and just say that my clerics/necromancers can replace casualties with the uncontrolled remnants, I like the touch of weapons and thanks for the hint on draconomicon too :smallbiggrin: I'm now thinking of adapting the character to be the right hand man to a general of an army attempting to take over the multiverse (hay it's epic, you gotta feed their egos and make them think they're doing something big before you tell them they screwed it up :smallwink: and having the character still why not use it) Overall I posed my question for in general though.

[Sception]

do check out haunt-shift. A sufficiently charismatic and powerful undead can animate the object they haunt as though through the spell animate opjects, and while they do so they're still not physically manifested, so they're immune to turning.

So yeah, at epic level nothing says battering ram like collossal haunted adamantine statues.

Also look into corpse-carving from complete arcane, a method of granting undead spell-like abilities. The cost is expensive enough to be a type-o, but even so there are a few spells that are just that good, at least on a few limited allies.

Is this a hypothetical character, a solo game, or a group game? Different party members could each play a general, each marshaling their own battalion via a unique blend of leadership feats, summoning/binding, and carefully tended alliances.


Oh, and when you want to take to the battle yourself, try magic-jarring yourself into one of your battle bruising undead skeletal dragons or giants, ordering it to voluntarily fail its save. Pretend to be a dracolich, it's fun.

[kharmakazy]

do check out haunt-shift. A sufficiently charismatic and powerful undead can animate the object they haunt as though through the spell animate opjects, and while they do so they're still not physically manifested, so they're immune to turning.


Came to post this. You can also shove your undead into siege weapons that fire themselves. Every piece of your equipment should have a dead thing living in it.

[drack]

well when I started wandering this I was working on a ex-cohort of a political intrigue, soon to be mini-BBEG, figured it mostly out (reoccurring villain in some ways, you know how liches are.) Could maybe use some fluff undeads though just to help with that image. :smalltongue: but the question was more just an abstract since I've been meaning to play a necromancer (cleric technically) that sees some action for a while now...

[Bob the DM]

Well I would love to answer that question:
Intelligent undeads are still bent to your will and you can cause them to preform every action with such commands though chances are they will disdain being tugged like puppets on a string. With the less intelligent varieties it is simpler as they get quickly accustomed to following the commands of their better, but if they die... ever well lets just say that there's a reason why there are as many spells to hurt undeads as to help them on the necromancy list :smallamused: I personally prefer not chain commanding, and believe that if I do so I should treat a vampire lord or the such with the respect befitting a lord even if I do hold the true power, for than they are less likely to try anything, and when you have an epic vampire that wants to get you... well they tend to get their way :smallamused:


That's my point. If you bend an intelligent, crafty undead (like a vampire) to your will, then it will spend ALL it's time plotting your death, and possibly your enslavement to him. And that comment about treating a commanded vampire lord with the respect it deserves? Ya, I don't think even begging for forgiveness and spending the rest of your life in it's service will be "respectful" enough to stop it from completely destroying you and making you it's slave. It's like gating in solars. They don't like it. Powerful beings DO NOT LIKE BEING COMMANDED. That's why necromancers use armies of mindless undead. They don't care. Ghouls? Wights? Give them people to kill and flesh to eat and they probably don't care, but stay away from vampires, liches, ghosts and the like.
Focus on making your simple mindless undead as powerful/useful as you can. Use templates from Liber Mortis too. Except for a small number of elite hard hitting units and or monsters, just go for zombies. They don't mind being slaughtered en mass and they'll distract the tougher foes long enough to kill them with your elite units or yourself.

[Divide by Zero]

When I played an epic dread necromancer, I had several thousand HD of undead to work with. I put most of that into defending my stronghold, and the rest into a few high-HD dragon zombies to follow me around.

[drack]

And that comment about treating a commanded vampire lord with the respect it deserves? Ya, I don't think even begging for forgiveness and spending the rest of your life in it's service will be "respectful" enough to stop it from completely destroying you and making you it's slave.
... don't hurt yourself :smalleek: anyways I had a political intrigue where I was a high priest of undead bent on taking over the world and handing it off to whatever undeads helped me as I go off to find the next one. From that position I essentially made them kings (having a small infinitely defensible-well at least as good as one gets with tons of big bad undeads in one huge city- undead only realm) and as I conquered lands they would go to them, and when I needed something I asked. knowing with a word you can force them to do it gives you the upper hand in negotiations, but than if you ask it means more. Plus they had their own troops even if I did have enough to in all likely hood overwhelm them. :smallsigh: anyways that's how you don't get backstabbed by your vampire lords.

[Bob the DM]

I'm glad it worked for you. But if those Vampire Lords were controlled by you, instead of just paid hansomely for willing service, then (if I was the DM), you have to watch out as you still bent them, unwillingly to your will. Plus they might be worried about what happens the next time you need to "borrow" them.

But if your DM doesn't feel the same way as I do, then you have much less of an issue to worry about. :)

[Sception]

OP: in terms of more specific suggestions, particularly for the command/rebuke section, should I assume access to all first party published undead, or should I only assume access to undead you can guarantee access to?

For instance, Slaymates are great utility undead, but I don't know of any way to guarantee access to them if the DM doesn't just let you find some. On the other hand, access to shadows can be guaranteed, since they can be summoned by a spell to create spawn that you can then rebuke.

Also, do you have access to any lieutenants? Cohorts? A selection of X guys with Y class levels placed in your service by your patron? Organizing undead legions is much easier & more effective if you have access to such, though it can be done purely with personal control pools if need be, you just have to be more careful about sub-commanders, and make due without dirgesingers and the like. Planar Ally/Binding can help fill the gaps.


Anyway, here's some spells you might want to look into, though you probably won't be able to cast them all with the same character unless you're gestalt, or an Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge sporting both cleric and wizard spells.

essential spells:

Plague of Undead (Spell Compendium)
Desecrate (PHB)
Unhallow (PHB)
Awaken Undead (Spell Compendium)
Polymorph Any Object (PHB)

Suggested Spells:

Revive Undead (Spell Compendium)
Undead Lieutenant (Spell Compendium)
Divine Interdiction (Spell Compendium)
Command Undead (PHB)
Vile Death (Heroes of Horror)
Haunt Shift (Libris Mortis)
Planar Ally/Binding with required spells to use (PHB)

[drack]

I'm glad it worked for you.
Oh no, it most certainly did not :smallbiggrin: Somehow when you encounter a great and powerful necromancer of any sort (undead or living) they tend to not like serving another, and expect complete control, so not only would I need to offer respect and all the spoils of war, but I needed to face them while their legions rained holy ballistics down on my minions, than at the same time I was dealing with rowdy neighbors (other PCs), and a giant association that was all that was holy to whom I must convince I had only the purest of intentions, while I was fighting a war, recruiting more (aka fighting BBEG type necromancer demon things), and trying to marshal my defenses. Needless to say my posts were long and complected, but for he most part how my character was fluffed out to essentially be an undead among undead (just that creepy), and that fluffwise I had come from another multiverse bearing the strange powers of another world... and the whole factor that few undeads wish to piss off a god of undeath by taking out it's high priest... well I had allot going for me that time. :smallcool:

anywho how would you change it if you did have a cohort and followers?

[Sception]

Let's start at the beginning.

What class are you? Dread Necromancer's the best at this, followed closely by cleric and then Death Master, Wizard, or Archivist, but all of the above are quite capable in this area, and sorcerers, favored souls, even warlocks or artificers can do in a pinch, and all will have some unique gimmicks. Any prestige classes? Have you decided on your skills and feats?

Are there other PCs? Are they helping out with the undead horde, or following unrelated character gimmicks?

Is leadership allowed? Undead Leadership? Draconic cohort? All of the above? Can your cohorts take such feats to have their own cohorts and followers? Can you hire additional PC classed lieutenants with levels in the double didgets?

What sources do you have access to? Core at least, and something with epic rules. What about the spell and item compendiums? the Complete series? the Races of series? Heroes of Horror? Heroes of Battle? Monster Manuals 2+? Fiend Folio? Draconomicon? Necronomicon (aka Libris Mortis)?, Abernomicon (aka Lords of Madness)? Demonomicon (Fiendish Codex I)? Devilnomicon (Fiendish Codex II)? It's Hot Out (Sandstorm)? It's Cold Out (Frostfell)? It's Wet Out (I can't even remember the real name of this book)? It's Caves Out (Dungeon-something-or-other)?

What about setting-specific material? I'm not as familiar with it, but I'm pretty sure both Eberron and the Realms have some interesting options for Necromancy, and I can do some research if you'd like.

What about Dragon Magazine? 3rd Party Material? Homebrew Material? Can you research new spells, or design new undead?

Can you assume access to any undead in available sources to fill your rebuke pool, or does it have to be something you could explicitly create, gate, or summon & spawn by Raw?

You're epic level. What epic rules are you using? Are there any that pertain directly to undead creation, control, or augmentation? I'm not familiar with epic rules so I'll need a quick primer (all my games have stopped progression at 20, even if the game continued) of concept relevant features.

[drack]

well since I'm really just adding a few helpful pointers to my overall at this point I'll give a more generic from which can be easily adapted with such variations:
Cleric or dread nec, other PCs doing whatever other PCs do :smalltongue: lets say no leadership, but possible shaky negotiations with other necromancers or undeads (NPCs) if you seek them out, no third party/dragon, but most all books accepted, my characters tend to have some world crossings in there somewhere so lets not go setting specific, lets assume you have access to some verity.

Epic level progression gives some more BAB, levels, saves, and epic feats which alone can give you a 10X modifier to commanding undead, and allow some extra mass animation of basic skeletons/zombies. It also lets you get items, abilities, ect on a much higher scale

[Sception]

What about the undead access bit again? Can you put any acceptable undead in your rebuke pool, or only undead that you can guarantee access to by some other ability? Again, as an example, Slaymates are an undead creature in Libris Mortis. They can be a useful tool to have around (wizards and clerics especially love them, but dread necros like them, too). However, you can't create them, you can't summon them, and you can't gate them,

Also, can you go straight dread necro, or will the lack of a specific epic progression cause problems?

Other then that, I'll work on this a bit.


actually, glancing at epic level rules in the srd, are these the ones you're using? Looks good, but for an error. It seems the writers of these rules though the normal animate dead limit was 1hd/caster level, not four. a couple of the individual spell entries even specify that they use the 'normal limit' and that abilities that exceed that limit still apply, which would make things like the dread necromancer's undead mastery and other such abilities work with it. If your DM rules that the standard limit for the animate dead seed should be the standard limit for the animate dead spell by default, then that's great for you. Otherwise, the spell seed and every epic spell based on it is completely worthless to you, as just casting one of these spells will cause your entire army to go uncontrolled.

Also, where are your hundreds of thousands of directly controlled undead hit dice coming from? I mean, for a 21st level dread necro, I can see maybe 700ish awakened hit dice through animate/plague of undead with a few castings of Undead lieutenant, maybe 2,500ish hd of mindless skeletons and zombies of 15 to 25 hd each (above 20 hd is for dragons only) from the command undead spell, maybe 200ish from rebuking? And that's if you take the undead mastery epic feat instead of the epic spellcasting feat at 21st leve, otherwise we're talking more like, what 40ish? 50ish?

I mean, that's a lot of undead, but unless you're going into limitless control shenanigans (chain spawning, or 10 levels of pale master + punching guys in the face), or leadership games (each cohort with their own pool, each follower with 2nd or higher level arcane slots burning them on command undead to add more mindless 15 to 25 hit dice undead to the pool), I'm not sure where the hundreds of thousands of total hit dice are coming from? If I'm missing something awesome, please let me know, as this is kind of a thing for me. :)

[drack]

lets assume you have access to some verity

[Sception]

edited previous post for some quick questions re: personal undead control* & whether your DM is enforcing the odd 1hd/cl limit no matter what the source of control is (apart from rebuking) for the animate dead epic spell seed.

*unless those limits are just being hand waved, which wouldn't be unnatural at such a high level. It's not like limitless control and leadership tricks aren't available, just handwaving set limits seems like an easy enough alternative to actually jumping through those hoops.

[drack]

Ahh, you are certainly missing something. You don't need epic progression if you're just going a few levels as 20 gives you enough, and whatever you get for level 21 gives you an epic feat with which you can get 10x undead to command, combine this with two rods of undead mastery (MIC) which lets you double your HD limit (cost 10,000 each), so 2*2*10=40*[(epic cha*2)+5] pull the standard shenanigans on top of that and presto :smallbiggrin: though I personally always restrain myself since manipulating mechanical systems comes easy to me. :smallfrown:

so how does it change when you add other players helping you? I mean you'd get more, but that's hardly the problem with these numbers...

[TheCountAlucard]

Also, since you become a lich at level 20 as a DN, have you considered the Evolved Undead template? Lots of fun. :smallamused: Technically it's supposed to only occur on certain occasions, but you can probably jump-start it with some sort of ritual or extraplanar nonsense. :smalltongue:

It's also a good template for minions, as is Spellstitched. :smallbiggrin:

[drack]

why yes I have considered various other undead templates, and yes I have accidently bent the system into submission a few times... I wanna try doing it all the way some time :smalltongue: (plus I've always considered that template as the equivalent of draconic age categories. If you peek in the ELH they go on forever and just come with time. After all it makes sense for a million year old intelligent skeleton or whatever to evolve for the changing times, no? (that's what this level 21 dred nec that I'm pulling these numbers from did for it's 21st level :smallwink:

[Worlok]

Idea: (Multiply) Evolved, Mummified, Spellstitched Lich. Permanent Symbol of Death imprinted on his forehead. Rolls around on an Evolved, Mummified, Spellstitched Tyrannosaurus. Manned by skeletal bowmen. Discuss. :smalltongue:

[drack]

... mummified and lich stack? so I could have a skeletal lich? sounds kinda off... also I spellstitch most of my undeads, what's the strength of the symbol of death, and why a dino? why not deathknights, liches, dracoliches, and demiliches if you wanna board the lich train? Also why does the dino need a bowman and a lich? I'd break it down more like deathknight/deathknight's minions in the first rank moving to keep the minions in the crossfire and the deathknights with more opportunities to strike with a powerful killing blow. Behind him put nimble soldier skeletons with bows behind cover, take about five liches, one to help guide the archers via magical sight spells allowing them to point out where to volley (50% miss for being unable to see, but the enemy gets the same problem, and you have cover, maybe throw in some siege stuff if you have the time to lug it around with you. The other 4 offer great battlefield control, and afterwards deathknights will automatically replace your flesh shields and all your real troops can heal themselves. True it's not quite so optimized, but it's just meant t be a small assault/skirmish squad. If I were just going for something cool to walk around with I'd cram all the inconspicuous undead I have into one person and let them all jump out and say 'boo' at the beginning of combat :smalltongue:.

[Worlok]

Not Deathward. Symbol of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm).

Dino because, c'mon, Dino.

And also not one bowman, but a whole bunch of them, a la the Mûmak in LotR.

Apart from that, my hat is off to you like I don't even know.

[drack]

yup I was thinking of symbol of death and edited it a minute before you corrected me :smalltongue:

Dino because, c'mon, Dino.
OK, OK, conceded, I'm just more of a dragon or something more exotic type of person :smallbiggrin:
Ahh, giant saddle of archers :smallamused: get a bigger and flying thing (like a bigger dino enchanted to fly) and you may have a vary deadly weapon :smallbiggrin:

Also personally I'm more into the pocket undead that aid you with their special stuff like demiliches using their at will greater dispel magic and fear aura to make you look invincible :smalltongue: great for intimidation when you render 20 mages useless and kill them at your leisure single handedly with a fear aura to boot no? And if you're negative energy too the at will harm is just as useful not to mention that you literally have a few level21 casters i your pocket, or better yet start trading out body parts for them letting you zip around the sky :smalltongue: There are other useful ones, but demiliches are my favorite :smallwink:

[Worlok]

I can see it now:

Half-dragon Tyrannosaurus (Hail compromise! :smallwink:), plus every mentioned modification, with the aforementioned undead-based supercomputer off in a demiplane somewhere to simulate like seven epic-level wizards per AI which you can tap into per undead control. And a bodyguard of skeleton archers. Firing arrows who contain a wrapped-up portable hole in the shaft and a miniature bag of holding, suspended open within the head... :smallamused:

Plus, the lich is composed entirely of a hivemind of demiliches, one for every bone, each one spellstitched and evolved and - bam! - held together by mummy wrappings. Good luck finding like 200 different phylacteries all over the universe. Good luck beating all those phylactery-propelled boni from their hoards full of magic items, come to think of it. :smalltongue:

And the symbol of death effectively insta-wastes 150 hp's worth of enemies. Perfect for epically trolling a roomful of dying opponents. Also, it being on the forehead, you could be all like: "Yo, you've seen my ride, but do you wanna know what I've got under the hood?" Commence evil laughter. :smalltongue:

Gentlemen... I think we may have reinvented necromantic warfare. :smalleek:

[drack]

Nah, I've already thought of the hive minded demilich thing, but it goes by limbs as you need enough bones for it to be mostly bones with 8 soul gems subbing out for finger joints and the such so you get 1/limb, +head+torso. not as flashy, but gets the job done. I prefer puzzle piece Phylacterys so that you can keep them all together. Also you gotta get over your mummy thing and get a base mount that can actually fly (skeletal dragons can't really without the fly spell :smallfrown:) Also the cover is essential to the skeletal archer idea, the computer would be a real pain to make, and likely useless until you can gather trillions and trillions, and than it's still easy to knock out. Awesome idea, not so awesome reality. also we can assume some as evolved and some as spellstitched in order to save time, though I really only spellstitch the main things since it's a wast on run of the mill skeletons and such. the symbol of death is a nice touch, but at epic levels 150 damage isn't lethal, and contingencies will likely bring them back to life if thy die :smalltongue:

why not just go for a bag of holding if you're knitting it into the skull, it makes better fluff for a skeleton to have an infinite stomach that stuff doesn't fall out of. :smallwink:

[Worlok]

at epic levels 150 damage isn't lethal, and contingencies will likely bring them back to life if thy die
That's why I said "trolling". You do that kind of stuff not to defeat them, but specifically for them to know that you'll go the extra mile to make them look stupid with unoptimised death effects, especially when planeshifting out the exact moment the contingencies kick in. :smallbiggrin: Also, it neatly sets up any undead-based oneliners you may or may not spout as you continue to bring forth death and ruination. That's too much of a plus in my mind. :smallredface:


skeletal dragons can't really without the fly spell :smallfrown:
True, but... can't dracoliches? I really don't know. :smallfrown: A T-Rex-sized half-dragon gets the wings... And would be of the dragon type, so I figure he'd meet the prerequisites... sort of... maybe...? :smallfrown:

Also, yeah, mummies aren't all that great, I reckon... But if one could somehow make it work, it would definitely be good for style points...

[drack]

Well they're good for continuing your assault throughout the day, but not necessarily for a random templates to throw around, so I don't wanna see any more vampiric skeletal mummified ghosts out of you, OK :smallamused: I honestly think you can't do that at all.(any two of them conflict) Dracoliches can, but a fly spell is easier than convincing a dragon to be happy about you mounting a bus on it's back :smallconfused:

ehh still not feeling the awesomeness of the symbol :smallsigh:

[Sception]

In terms of how things change with allies - it's not so much larger pools, as different abilities they can bring to the table. Different casters bring different useful spells, particularly if you're going dread necro for better control. Moving an army from plane to plane takes spells dread necros don't get, for instance. There are also more minor abilities - for example, dirge singers can pull some useful tricks, particularly in terms of turning defenses, but they're not at all good as a primary character for this. Turning defenses in general are important, whether they be castings of divine interdiction, rebukers bolstering, squad leaders with necromantic presence, or the like. You'll need squad commanders that can allow your formations to move independently, and you'll want them to be smarter then what awaken undead can manage. You can make due with intelligent undead you control via rebuking, but their low HD cap is going to make them something of a significant weak point to be exploited, where an NPC with, say, 12 to 16 hit dice/levels is going to be considerably more resilient, plus they'll come with their own npc wealth by level to equip them, rather then directly draining your own resources.

Also, I hope you don't mind if I look over your numbers a bit before proceeding. I'm unaccustomed to such high levels (I usually cap out around 16 to 18), and I'll want to check your elements myself while I'm contemplating useful undead and unit formations. I might have a few more stupid questions for you, such as "I though multiplication didn't work that way in D&D - ie, x10 x2 x2 = x12, not x40", but it's been quite a while, and most likely I'm just wrong.

[drack]

well I think you want to say 2x2x10=14... I was actually thinking of that... and you may be right... which means that I would end up needing to optimize for the same results. Generally I only bother with 2 of the x2s so it doesn't really matter, but on a larger scale... well thanks for catching that :smallbiggrin:

[TheCountAlucard]

well I think you want to say 2x2x10=14...

Actually, you're wrong. It'd be x12.

Really.

[drack]

oh... wow... yeah it would :smallbiggrin:

[Sception]

Not that it kills the build at all. It's just something to consider.

And you might want to ask again about various leadership feats (off the top of my head: leadership, undead leadership, draconic cohort, in that order). Cohorts taking leadership themselves is generally not kosher, but in any campaign with a mass combat / army leading theme to it the base feats generally are.

The x10 rebuke pool epic feat is nice, but unless I'm reading it wrong it only applies to rebuke control, not spell control. Do ask your DM about the epic spell seed for Animate Dead. It really does sound like it's supposed to use the normal control limits for Animate Dead, along with any relevant modifiers (read the entries for the sample epic spells that use the seed), and it's not an unprecedented error, since the spells "Animate Dead" and "Ghoul Gauntlet" were also supposed to use the same limits but didn't initially, and notably it was ghoul gauntlet that got the errata.

If the DM rules in your favor on the spell seed, you may want to consider 'Epic Spellcasting' instead of 'Epic Undead Mastery' as your epic level feat for being level 21. Having access to literally any undead, and being able to put them into your animate dead pool of complete control regardless of their individual hit dice, may be worth more to you then the extra pile of wights and wraiths that you can pick up via a larger rebuking pool - but that's if and only if the DM rules that casting the ultimate spell of undead creation and control doesn't nuke your ability to actually control undead.

Also note that the rod of undead mastery needs to be 'held' to function, which means you can't use more then two, and even using two may require the 'still spell' feat. Unless, of course, you're going for some sort of shenanigans (magic jar into skeletal gorillon, etc). Shouldn't really be necessary, though.


I've been busy the last couple days, but I'm still working on this, as I love the concept, and I've never tried to build the epic level version before. I'll need to know about the leadership feats, though, and about which epic feat you're taking, and if you have a preference between a clerical base or a dread necro base, and if there are any particular gimmicks other than undead control that you want to push.

[drack]

I know, and even that is easily broken

lets assume that there's leadership just cuz it's more common in epic games :smallbiggrin:

There usually aren't epic spells in my games :smallbiggrin:

2x cost makes an item slot-less (held on person) so with epic wealth you could probably get an extra 10x easily enough

yeah, I like it too :smallbiggrin:

[Sception]

yeah, but you want to have funds for your own gear, and some to outfit undead servants (servants through leadership come with their own), and homebrew items using the costs for slotless equivalents are about as uncommon in my games as epic spells are in yours, so if you don't mind, I'll avoid both.

Notable: after reviewing the epic Undead Mastery feat again, it resets the base control pool for rebuke/control, and then the rod of undead mastery doubles that pool. With a rod, you're looking at 420 HD, with two rods you'd get the x3 modifier on the base pool, for 630 HD, though I'm trying to avoid the multiple / slotless rods business. Anyway, it's not quite as good as you wanted, but it's far better then I previously made out.

Leadership feats are in.

One more question (I know, I know). Will you or your allies have any pool of Xp for spells with XP costs or crafting, or does any crafting / xp expenditure cost you at least one level? I don't want to knock you out of epic levels by assuming you've got a couple uses of awaken undead to spare.


Hrm. Once we agree on the actual pools, we can start looking at specifics.

Sketch, time:


Human (pseudo-lich) Dread Necro 21

Assumed min Cha 32 (15 base + 6 level +5 tome + 6 enhancement)

Feats:
1) Spell Penetration (human bonus)
1) Greater Spell Penetration
3) Corpse Crafter
6) Destruction Retribution
9) Leadership
12) Reach Spell
15) Undead Leadership
18) Maximize Spell
19) Craft Wondrous Item (class bonus)
21) Epic Undead Mastery

Note: spell penetration x2, reach spell, and maximize spell are to get the most out of your main single target offensive tools: shivering touch and enervation, both of which can be devastating. Corpse crafter's there as a prerec for destruction retribution, which makes your legions considerably more difficult to deal with. Leadership and Undead Leadership (basically leadership again) get you spells you don't otherwise have access to and a substantially improved control pool.

Advanced Learning:
lv2/2) Kelgore's Grave Mist
lv3/4) Shivering Touch
lv3/6) Undead Lieutenant
lv6/8) Revive Undead
lv9/9) Astral Projection

yeah, that's a lot of lower level spells then what you could have taken, but it's worth it. Note that both your cleric and your wizard can cast awaken undead for you, though only the cleric can spare a level for XP costs - you need the wizard to have access to 9th level spells. Undead Lieutenant (SpC) is useful for nominating sub-commanders to lead individual factions.

Undead Control: as 21st level Dread Necromancer with rod of Undead Mastery, Scepter of the Netherworld, and rod of defiance (remember to share these with your cohorts!).

Note that when the influence of the rod of defiance is withdrawn, the increased turn resistance of the undead controlled will count against the maximum HD you can control, and can cause you to lose control of some undead the next time you rebuke for that reason, but individual undead who end up having higher effective HD then you could normally control will not automatically go free for that reason - there's nothing that grants them freedom once they've been controlled other then you not running out of space in the pool the next time your rebuke.

Temporary boosts to turn resistance don't matter for this reason either, as long as they're withdrawn by the time you next attempt to add undead via rebuking. Likewise, if your control pool is temporarily lowered, such as through negative levels or the like, you don't lose control of undead you already have unless you cast animate dead or gain control of more undead via rebuking during that period.

Basically, control pools are checked at time of use, whether it's animate dead or rebuke/command, and not at any other time. When they are checked, if you're over the pool new undead are kept, and you pick which old undead are lost (higher HD undead or intelligent undead do not have priority). Other then your death or the target's death, undead controlled via animate dead or rebuke undead can only be lost in this manner, and as long as you control them you can issue orders, no matter what their HD are.

Also note that, theoretically, multiple rods of defiance could stack with themselves, completely removing the HD cap for rebuked undead. I don't like stacking the same item's effect multiple times, so I won't be doing so here. Same with the Rod of Undead Mastery. Finally: you don't personally have to be holding the rod of defiance when you're rebuking, more likely you'll be holding a scepter of the netherworld and a rod of undead mastery, while a cohort or follower brandishes the rod of defiance nearby. With all that out of the way, control pools:


Animate Dead (and by that I mean Plague of Undead, SpC, - being both much better and much cheaper) pool. All undead should be created under a desecrate zone, utilizing your undead mastery class feature and corpse crafter and destruction retribution feats.

level 21 * [4 base + 11 cha = 15] = base score 315, *2 for rod = 630, all skeletons or zombies, max HD/individual = 20, for non dragons, too high to matter for dragons via desecrate since as a practical matter you'll probably be maxing out in the 35 to 40 range just based on the upper limits of true dragon HD. These undead can be awakened without losing control, so a lot of this will be spent on useful utility undead, awakened elite soldiers or mounts, and sub-commanders for detachments that don't require especially brilliant leaders - remember to use a maximized metamagic rod when casting awaken, and maybe widen as well; if you empower and maximize you can actually get some reasonably smart lieutenants. Speaking of, Undead Lieutenant also slightly increases this control pool, but I forget by how much.

Rebuking: level [21+3 for scepter = 24], base pool [24*10 = 240] * 2 (rod of undead mastery) = 480 hit dice, capped at [24/2+4=16] hit dice apiece, including turn resistance, thanks to the influence of the rod of defiance. These can be any undead that you could believably have gotten your hands on, which at 21st level should be a pretty long list, and thanks to the scepter and the rod you've got some pretty potent options to choose from. You'll want some good utility, some spawners, and some strong and intelligent field commanders. Note that this can also be used to acquire undead with class levels - necropolitans being ideal - which can get pretty ridiculous, as you could then, say, order necropolitan spellcasters to burn XP crafting things for you until they were withered husks and kill them. This feels a touch excessive - possibly more so then chain control spawning, and should probably be kept to a minimum. You'll run out of HD here quickly, and this pool will be key to the overall strength of your force.


Command Undead, assuming all normal 2nd level spell slots are burned on it (bonus spells spent on other level useful level 2 spells). 6 uses per day, each use lasting 21 days, maximum of 126 additional mindless (ie, don't awaken these) undead. No hit die cap per, in practice these will range from 15 HD giants to 40 hit die colossal Reds, and as such the HD will range from 1,500 to 5,000 or so, though I'd err towards the lower end as you don't want to risk losing control of any, and you want to be able to have a day or two spare in case you can't make the rounds. So, we'll say about 100 high HD individuals, counted by number rather then HD.


Uncontrolled undead: Undead don't need to be under your control to be useful. As an example, you can affix cages or coffins within the rib cages of your huge and bigger undead stuffed with uncontrolled lower HD undead. They'll soak rebuke attempts, damage nearby enemies, and heal their host bodies all at the same time. Likewise, chambers of uncontrolled undead in your stronghold can discourage looters, uncontrolled spawning undead can be snuck behind enemy lines to plague their cities and supply lands, or sow confusion in their camps, etc. Of course, reckless abuse of uncontrolled spawning undead is going to get you negative attention from some really powerful beings. You can deal with clerics of Pelor, but you probably don't want to fight Pelor herself....


Allies:
Wizard 17, (leadership): Note that regular leadership has a hard cap of 17 on a cohort's ecl. Your DM may or may not allow necropolitan to be applied at no level cost (theoretically you've had this guy for more then 10 levels, he would have had time to make up the xp). Sadly, we can't do much item creation or spells with xp costs with this guy unless you've got an amount of free xp to spend, as teleportation circle is essential for moving your army around, and it's a 9th level spell. Key Spells - Teleportation Circle, Polymorph Any Object, Gate.
Undead control: as Necromancer 17 + same rods as you
136 via plague of undead, preferably awakened, plus some for undead lt.
~ 70 high HD individuals via Command Undead
sub ally: Familiar

Cleric 16 (undead Leadership): Undead Leadership lets you choose a normal living cohort or an undead cohort from a short list. While the undead cohort list has a higher max ECL (not being capped at 17, you could get a creature with ECL 19, two less then your 21). However, the lowest level adjustment on the list is +4 for a lich. If your DM lets you select a necropolitan as an undead cohort, then take level 19 necropolitan cleric. If not, take the level 17 cleric and apply the necropolitan template if your DM lets you avoid the level loss by saying it happened a while ago (see above). Either way, drop a level to get a couple uses of awaken undead. I know, I know, 9th level spells, but you'll want some awakened undead, so do it anyway. Domains are Deathbound (for spells) & Evil (for the domain bonus), standard divine metamagic cheese. If eberron material is allowed, grab the necromancy domain instead of the evil domain for access to the spell command undead. Key Spells: desecrate, unhallow, divine interdiction, awaken undead.
Undead control, as cleric 16 with the usual rods
136 HD via Animate Dead, preferably awakened.
76 HD via rebuking, max (19/2)+4 = 13 HD


I'm assuming no prestige classes on these guys for simplicity sake, but if you do want to mess with them, I like master specialist for the wizard and thaumaturgist for the cleric, but that's just me, and will need to be investigated.

Ghostly Visage Familiar (21st level abilities): I pick the visage to make it a viable target for Undead Lieutenant. As per epic spellcasting, it gets 1 level 8 or lower spell per day at your caster level... I'm not sure what to go with, here. Though command undead is tempting, I'd rather not burn this on a 2nd level spell, and it can't have a gold or xp cost... Hrm.

Followers: half of them come from 'Undead Leadership', but the undead to choose from aren't exactly impressive, so again you'll be taking living followers for the most part. Your leadership score will be high enough that the penalty for doing so won't matter. Note that arcane casters capable of casting second level spells can cast command undead, and there's no save and no HD cap when casting that spell on unintelligent targets. Divine casters capable of casting 3rd level spells can cast animate dead, but the most you could potentially have is 4, and their control pools & hit die caps aren't exactly fantastic. Followers don't matter too much, but they're nice to have, and if your DM rules "follow that guy's orders" to be an acceptably simple command for unintelligent undead, then the added control pool from 30 minor caster capable of casting command undead is actually pretty staggering (14x2x3 + 8x3x4 + 4x4x5 + 4x7x6 = up to 428 mindless undead, not even counting bonus spells, each of which can have 20 hd, or more via skeletal/zombie dragon templates, we're talking somewhere between 6,000 and 16,000 hit dice total, though leaning to the low end, for the same reasons mentioned above). If the DM doesn't allow that that command, there's always wands of extended undead lieutenant, although it's more costly and effortful. If you're allowed to use those self recharging, two uses a day wands from eberron that helps. I'd say you could hand out reusable wands of command undead even to lower level followers, but you could just use those yourself, completely defeating the point. Failing everything else, the low level casters can ride big undead into battle as sub-commanders, but that's pretty risky.

Follower totals:
level 1: 270
level 2: 26
level 3:14
level 4: 8
level 5: 4
level 6: 4

[Hazzardevil]

I would just like to point out a section in libris mortis about spawn creating undead.
In almost all cases the parent, (IE: a vampire for the easiest intelligent example) Feels nothing towards the children while the children are actually in love with or somethign along those lines, so they have no say in the matter, they convince themselves they want to.

[Jack_Simth]

I would just like to point out a section in libris mortis about spawn creating undead.
In almost all cases the parent, (IE: a vampire for the easiest intelligent example) Feels nothing towards the children while the children are actually in love with or somethign along those lines, so they have no say in the matter, they convince themselves they want to.
This would cause a severe issue if the spawn saw their actual master as being in a one-way or abusive relationship with the PC....

[Divide by Zero]

With a rod, you're looking at 420 HD, with two rods you'd get the x3 modifier on the base pool, for 630 HD, though I'm trying to avoid the multiple / slotless rods business.

This is why you do it as a Dread Necromancer. I had somewhere around a 2000 HD control pool with nothing but a moderately optimized +Cha epic buff (using the epic spellcasting rules presumably as intended, no chain-gating mitigation or anything like that).

[drack]

Well there are some ways to skip out on xp costs :smalltongue:

Actually I think there is a place that says that if the HD commanded exceeds...XXX... than you must relinquish command of HD, but that you choose who to release. Remember in some cases releasing undeads can be as good as commanding them. Just ask yourself what undeads normally do in that situation.

"capped at [24/2+4=16] hit dice apiece" actually just capped at 24/2=12 you forget that for destroying/commanding undead you can only do so to those with HD equal to or less than our level :smallfrown:

" but you probably don't want to fight Pelor herself"... Pelor's a girl? that aside in all honesty some epic clerics can be stronger than their gods in all but divinity, which can be swiftly remedied with proxies :smallbiggrin:

"Divine casters capable of casting 3rd level spells can cast animate dead, but the most you could potentially have is 4" arcane casters get it too, min CL is 7 and it's 4/CL, not to mention I think you're forgetting all the fun involved in partial HD undeads :smalltongue:

[Sception]

We'll be using your rebuke pool for useful, intelligent, potent undead. What those undead do when released is run the hell away before you get the chance to control them again.

The +4 is for the rod of defiance. Turn resistance -4 for undead in its zone of effect, and you can have a friend holding it, and yes, turn resistance can be a negative number.

So lets say you have a level 14 undead with tr+2, functionally 16 hit dice for rebuking. Catch it in the zone, and the -4 modifier kicks in, so that's 14 hit dice, +2 for its turn resistance, -4 for the rod's influence, for an effective hit dice for rebuking purposes of 12. With your scepter, you're effectively 24th level when you rebuke, so it's effective hit dice are half of your effective level and it is commanded. Even after the influence of the rod of defiance is removed, it's still commanded, because it only checks his level when you rebuke him to begin with. Nothing says you can't maintain control over undead more then half your level, once they're controlled they're controlled, and it doesn't check your level when you issue orders. The only limit at that point is your total control pool.

And yes, you're right about the total pool for rebuking, it's term is 'at any one time' in terms of how many hit die total you can control, though again nothing stops you from maintaining control over any given undead regardless of its individual HD, so long as your rebuking level was at least twice its effective hit dice for turning at the time of the rebuke. Unfortunately, the continuous check of rebuking pool size basically stops the rod of undead mastery from working for rebuking (military campaigns take months or years, even without the need to eat or sleep, you won't be holding that rod all the time), which is going to cut that pool in half, a fairly major blow. Notably, animate dead does only check when you cast the spell, so the rod's still fine there. All the more reason to double check on whether epic spellcasting is allowed, and if so whether the animate dead spell seed uses the normal limit rather then the 1hd/caster level limit.

As for the followers and animate dead: I was counting the number of followers high enough level to cast it, although I got that wrong too (that bit of text was from before I double checked and realized you can grab regular followers via undead leadership). The most would be eight, four 5th level followers and 4 sixth level followers. Arcane casters can cast animate dead, yes, but the lowest level they can do so is 7th, and followers cap at 6th level. Not worth bothering with, either way. Better to have more followers with more uses of the command undead spell, to control undead that might actually matter. For instance, what would you rather have added to your army: 2 10 hit dice skeletons, or 15 20 hit dice skeletons? that's the difference between a 5th level cleric with animate dead to create their own and a 5th level wizard using a few castings of Command Undead each day to mop up excess creatures created by you or your cohorts.

Of course, if you have access to the necromancy domain from Eberron, then go that route and have it both ways.

[drack]

1)because it only checks his level when you rebuke him to begin with. Nothing says you can't maintain control over undead more then half your level, once they're controlled they're controlled, and it doesn't check your level when you issue orders.

2) Unfortunately, the continuous check of rebuking pool size basically stops the rod of undead mastery from working for rebuking (military campaigns take months or years, even without the need to eat or sleep, you won't be holding that rod all the time), which is going to cut that pool in half, a fairly major blow. Notably, animate dead does only check when you cast the spell, so the rod's still fine there. All the more reason to double check on whether epic spellcasting is allowed, and if so whether the animate dead spell seed uses the normal limit rather then the 1hd/caster level limit.

As for the followers and animate dead: I was counting the number of followers high enough level to cast it, although I got that wrong too (that bit of text was from before I double checked and realized you can grab regular followers via undead leadership). The most would be eight, four 5th level followers and 4 sixth level followers. Arcane casters can cast animate dead, yes, but the lowest level they can do so is 7th, and followers cap at 6th level. Not worth bothering with, either way. Better to have more followers with more uses of the command undead spell, to control undead that might actually matter. For instance, what would you rather have added to your army: 2 10 hit dice skeletons, or 15 20 hit dice skeletons? that's the difference between a 5th level cleric with animate dead to create their own and a 5th level wizard using a few castings of Command Undead each day to mop up excess creatures created by you or your cohorts.

Of course, if you have access to the necromancy domain from Eberron, then go that route and have it both ways.
1) that's when DMs call shenanigans :smalltongue:
2)... if your a lich you think you're gonna get tired of it :smallconfused: come now, you can stand on your left hand for a thousand years and not weary, I'm sure you can put up with holding a rod :smalltongue:
3)also don't forget that domain that ups your max skeleton made to 6X your CL :smallwink:

[Sception]

1) that's when DMs call shenanigans :smalltongue:
No shenanigans, that's just how it works. Otherwise, you'd lose control of all your undead whenever you bolstered them. Otherwise, the rod of defiance would do little to nothing at all. And this is from the guy who wanted to collect a whole bunch of slotless rods to stack with themselves calling shenanigans on me. ;) I mean, maybe if I were arguing the stacking of multiple such rods... but I'm not.

Again, it's not shenanigans, it's just how it works. If you inflicted a temporary negative turn resistance on an undead to destroy it, would it pop back to life once that turn resistance ended? No.

Rebuke has a max HD pool, and the undead's full effective turning hit dice will count against it once it leaves the rod of defiance's zone, but it won't go uncontrolled simply because it's no longer less then half your level.


2)... if your a lich you think you're gonna get tired of it :smallconfused: come now, you can stand on your left hand for a thousand years and not weary, I'm sure you can put up with holding a rod :smalltongue:
And you'll never need it for writing? wielding a staff? brandishing a metamagic rod in battle while casting a spell with somatic components? You'll never cast magic jar? Magic Jar's one of your best spells! No, even an undead PC who could hold a rod in his hands for years wouldn't actually do so. There's too many other things you'd actually do with your hands. The rebuke pool without it is still large enough to be functional - remember, your primary army is one of skeletal giants and zombie dragons, rebuking is for useful utility and a few squad commanders. It hurts, but it's not the end of the world.


3)also don't forget that domain that ups your max skeleton made to 6X your CL :smallwink:
It's nice, but it doesn't do much, and it doesn't make a 5th or 6th level divine follower able to bring more undead to the table then a 5th or 6th level arcane follower with an epic level patron. Even with the deathbound domain, it's the difference between a single 20th level skeleton and 15 20th level skeletons, and the latter were made by you, so they have max HP per HD (plague of undead), plus all the benefits of your dread necro class features and corpsecrafter feats. And the arcane caster can cast Undead Lieutenant, allowing those undead to be lead into battle by something much more durable then a 5th level npc. There's really no contest.

5th level clerics bring more necromancy to the table then 5th level wizards as PCs, but that's only because PCs don't have reliable access to 20 hit dice mindless undead monstrosities. The same doesn't hold for your followers. They do have such access, making the combination of Command Undead and Undead Lieutenant much more potent in their hands then anything an equivalent level cleric could do.

[drack]

1) nah, I had misunderstood and thought you had been talking about pool still :smalltongue:

2) you can do stuff one handed, or play a race with more hands :smallconfused:

3) I'd say it's more that once you can make 21*6=126HD skeletons than there's that much bigger of things to be done with em. :smallbiggrin: Also I was wondering. is there any easy way to crank up the is on skeletons/zombies so that spell-stitching becomes useful (not wasted)? :smallconfused:

[Sception]

3) Sadly there's a cap on skeleton HD size. For regular skeletons and zombies it's 20 HD, which means regular zombies can't be made out of anything that had more then 10 HD! Dragon Skeletons and Dragon Zombies (the latter of which don't double the base creatures HD by the way, another reason those templates rock) have no hit die cap, but the dragons you can cast them on themselves cap out at around 41 HD for gold dragons (theoretically they can be advanced higher then that, but that's moving into 'shenanigans' territory). Others will have less HD then that, and you'll probably want a bit of variety - for aesthetic purposes and movement modes if not for elemental resistances.

So anyway, you can make these awesome 20 to 40 HD undead, and make no mistake, they are awesome. Each one is gigantic, powerful, has the maximum number of HP per HD, has additional HP from desecrate, dread necromancer, corpse crafter, has improved physical stats from dread necromancer, carries approximately 10 to 15 hit dice of uncontrolled lesser undead within it that give it a buffer against turning and explode when they die, healing it and hurting nearby enemies, and when it dies it releases a powerful explosion that again hurts those near it and heals nearby undead. And you make tons of them, they roll out in formations of 50 to 100, all serving the instructions of an awakened undead or other intelligent undead that goes with them upon which their owners have cast undead lieutenant.

Only the awakened needs to be under your animate dead control pool, the rest can be held by command undead spells cast every few days. But that's a lot of individuals. I mean, with your high caster level, you can manage a lot of these unintelligent brutes by burning second and third level spell slots you don't need (each casting lasts caster level days, so each slot you dedicate to this can manage caster level number of creatures).

You can control about 100 of these guys without eating into spell slots you might actually want to use, but it's pretty easy to push that number up to 200 without losing too much. Your arcane cohort can do 70 with little problem, but we could push that up to 100. IF all your level 3+ followers are spamming command undead? We're talking another 400. That makes 700 total. Not 700 hit dice, 700 individuals, with no HD cap. 700! You'll want to buy a few spare rods of lesser extend to pass around while your followers make their rounds before major battles, just to have that extra buffer going in case things get hairy. All in all, lets say 600, just to be on the safer side.

Just as a quick sketch, that's, say, two regiments of 100 Skeletal half-red-dragon Storm Giants all in breastplate armor with greatswords and mighty composite longbows and a couple massive magical adamantine battering rams per formation, two regiments of 50 skeletal half-fiend great wyrm gold dragons, two regiments of 50 skeletal half-fiend great wyrm blue dragons (for the burrow speed), and four regiments of 50 assorted zombie half-fiend great wyrm dragons for air support (at least two of those should be made entirely from dragons that have swim speeds, just to round out your movement modes).

Each of these mighty, if mindless, undead bruisers is stuffed with uncontrolled lesser regular zombies for turning absorption, as described previously. Each regiment is led by one commander and one or more back up commanders, either awakened skeletons and zombies controlled via the animate dead pool of you or one of your cohorts, or other intelligent undead controlled via rebuking. These commanders must have more HD then the uncontrolled zombies you use to absorb turning attempts, but they don't need as many as the troops they lead. They don't need to be strong fighters, since most of their turns will be spent handing out orders. They probably shouldn't be zombies either.

Together, these troops make up the bulk of your fighting force, small but hard hitting formations of powerful monsters. Beyond that, you'll want a formation or two of incorporeals, but those can be smaller, and more surgically used. Other interesting undead are probably managed on the individual rather then formation level.


2) It doesn't matter how many hands you have. At some point you're going to want to cast magic jar, and the body you jar into won't already be holding the rod (honestly, I recommend spending most of your time jarred into one of your 20+ HD undead monstrosities, and carrying your real body in an adamantine coffin hidden among the uncontrolled undead in its chest cavity, but it's a great offensive tool as well). It's one of your best spells. I'm having a hard time imagining how another hundred hit dice of rebuke undead is going to make it up, even if you can get some pretty awesome servants out of it). Plus, if you ever find yourself in combat, there's risks of being disarmed, etc.

I don't know. If anyone else wants to weigh in on this, it would be appreciated.

[drack]

:smallbiggrin: just go demilich if that's what you want. It lets you be affected as if carrying your gear even if you're not. It also lets you say 'boo I'm a flying severed hand, feel my wrath' :smalltongue:

By the way I was wondering how do people get them to explode into negative energy when they die? :smallbiggrin: