PF Soulknife + Incarnum build -- possible?

[Yorae]

I'm trying to fit a build to a character and was considering using the pathfinder Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) and some type of incarnum-user. I'm not terribly familiar with incarnum, but I'd like to give it a shot.

I'm not averse to manifesting as well, but the character must be able to form a mind blade and use it effectively. This guy would probably be a TWF-er, but I' more flexible on that...

Incarnum Blade looked kind of neat, but I have no idea how to use it effectively together with soulknife... and it doesn't seem to get any additional melds or essentia, which makes me question the point. Soul Manifester looked neat, but... poor BAB progression makes me wince.

Any ideas on how to make something like this that doesn't suck?

[mootoall]

Well, is there anything you wanna do that can't be achieved using the Shape Soulmeld feat? Like, do any of the Incarnate's abilities appeal to you? And what exactly do you wanna get from the Incarnum side? More damage, more versatility, what?

[Big Fau]

Incarnum Blade looked kind of neat, but I have no idea how to use it effectively together with soulknife... and it doesn't seem to get any additional melds or essentia, which makes me question the point. Soul Manifester looked neat, but... poor BAB progression makes me wince.


Incarnum Blade is horrible. The abilities it grants are actually worse than the 3.5 Soulknife, and you would be better off avoiding it all together.

Soul Manifester is OK, but works best with Legacy Champion. See if you can get the DM to turn your Mind Blade into a Legacy Item in addition to the Soulknife's normal benefits (the PF Soulknife is good as-is, but this is a nice boost f done properly).

[Yorae]

To be honest, the flavor just struck me as extremely well suited to this particular character and I was wondering if there was a way to accomplish it while maintaining a decent level of power. I'm not sure what incarnum classes are good at, really... just wanted to try it out.

[Psyren]

Gestalt is probably the way to go here. Both Soulknife and the Incarnum classes tend to be jealous lovers and want all your time - or more accurately, your levels - so your best bet is to please them both at once.

Failing that, there is nice Incarnum/Soulknife homebrew floating around the boards.

[Yorae]

Incarnum Blade is horrible. The abilities it grants are actually worse than the 3.5 Soulknife, and you would be better off avoiding it all together.

Soul Manifester is OK, but works best with Legacy Champion. See if you can get the DM to turn your Mind Blade into a Legacy Item in addition to the Soulknife's normal benefits (the PF Soulknife is good as-is, but this is a nice boost f done properly).

Why does Legacy Champion make it significantly better? Just the better BAB?
Are their rules for making something a Legacy Item, or would this require a total DM fiat?

[Big Fau]

Why does Legacy Champion make it significantly better? Just the better BAB?
Are their rules for making something a Legacy Item, or would this require a total DM fiat?

That and the fact that you can advance Soul Manifester's dual advancement beyond 10.

The rules for founding a Legacy Item are in WoL all ready. It's somewhat painful XP-wise, but any optimization turns your Legacy Item into a valuable tool.

Edit:


I'm not sure what incarnum classes are good at, really... just wanted to try it out.

Then don't bother with the Soulknife. Play a Totemist; it will teach you just what Incarnum is good at.

[Cerlis]

one thing to remember is that Incarnum is the master of bonuses. pretty much all their soulmelds are "you gain a boost in this stat, and you can focus your esentia on it to make that stronger" So while other classes gain those abilities through skills or feats and are stuck with em, you can gain access to many more abilities and decide each turn if you want to specialize in jumping, attacking, damage, bluffing. ect. and then you bind your chakras to mimick major abilities that other classes are stuck with (scent, uncanny dodge,flying, ect). So for example an incarnate LOOKS like it gets no skills or base attack, but actually it gets it in a form that can change every 6 seconds.

I liked the idea of Incarnum blade, but it just sucks, itspretty much just a Fighter who gains Bonus feats he can change once a day, since he has no way of investing essentia into his blademeld.

Two things you might want to consider is a Lawful Incarnate. They specialize in offense. I'm pretty sure there is a soulmeld or two that will increase you're attack power and allow you to essentially power your soul blade with essential. Since incarnate hast he best Soulmelding preogession (other than totemist. and if you can rule the soulknife is a natural weapon i'd go with that) you wouldnt be gimped so much by multiclassing soulbade and Incarnate.

One thing you CAN consider is that a Lawful incarnate gets a sword he can form out of essentia at level one(i think...the benefit of soulmelds is you get access to ALL your classes soulmelds, you just can use em to max effect till higher level), and when you learn how to bind it to a chakra you can invest essentia in it to give it bonuses (but not enhancements like flaming burst). so you are actually turning a Soulkife into a Psiknife and you are being the soulknife because you are actually creating your blade out of soul energy.

Actually this might be better since to your allies and enemies you are doing the same thing as a soulknife. I personally wanted to make a Skarn Lawful incarnate and i liked the idea of swinging around a giant red sword shaping soul energy around myself to look like an inevitable and making some creepy speech to a Lich or chaos mage about him ruining the Order of the universe and that i was there to destroy him.

FYI All incarnates (and i think only incarnates) getIncarnate weapon, but Good, evil, and chaos ones get a different looking weapon (but hey, you might get your dm to switch em out.

but dont befooled by a soulshapers lack of skills, base attack or abilities because you get ALL those through your soulmelds. One turn you can focus your energy into high attack rolls , damage rolls, and AC bonuses. then when things turn, move your essentia somewhere else to gain speed, skill bonuses, and jump tubmle and then fly away.

[Psyren]

Remember also that while PF Soulknives are nice in a fight, that's pretty much all they can do. Think of them like Barbarians, but with a bit more finesse - both classes still revolve around hitting things. This is why both classes are relegated to T4 ("Can do one thing well, often useless when the situation requires other areas of expertise.")

Incarnum (by which I mean Incarnates and Totemists) on the other hand, have a much wider variety of applications - from combat to social to recon to making a buck and everything in between. And even just in combat, you get far more choices than the Soulknife can offer you - from brawling grapplers to mobile skirmishers to focused snipers to artillery to terrain-based combat (aerial, aquatic, cliffside, subterannean...)

[Yorae]

Looking over the incarnum classes and soulmelds, it all seems a bit... well, boring. Shaping magic items out of soulstuff sounded pretty neat, but it comes off just a bit dull. Maybe I should just play a PsyWar or Ardent and dip soulknife? Maybe take a psionic PrC and use the "+1 manifester level" to give soulblade enhancement progression and manifesting progressing. I know about the Soulbound Weapon ACF, but one of the restrictions I'm working with for this build is that it has to use a soulblade or something very like one - I really like the idea of the Incarnum Weapon, it just isn't something that seems like it would get much use after a few levels, since an actual magic item would be much more useful.

[Big Fau]

Looking over the incarnum classes and soulmelds, it all seems a bit... well, boring. Shaping magic items out of soulstuff sounded pretty neat, but it comes off just a bit dull. Maybe I should just play a PsyWar or Ardent and dip soulknife? Maybe take a psionic PrC and use the "+1 manifester level" to give soulblade enhancement progression and manifesting progressing. I know about the Soulbound Weapon ACF, but one of the restrictions I'm working with for this build is that it has to use a soulblade or something very like one - I really like the idea of the Incarnum Weapon, it just isn't something that seems like it would get much use after a few levels, since an actual magic item would be much more useful.

From what Sinfire Titan and a few others posted, the Totemist actually sounds very fun (like a Wildshape Ranger really).

The Incarnate needs a little work, I do agree, but it is a decent class on it's own. It's actually closer to playing an Expert that doesn't completely suck. Using UMD really is the best way to get mileage out of it, and you always have a fallback plan in the form of your other soulmelds.

Really, talk to some of the people who've played it. The whole book takes some effort to get into, but it pays off thanks to how versatile it is.



Although I personally won't stop you from playing an Ardent or PsiWar over an Incarnate or Totemist.

[Psyren]

You could try a sneaky assassin-type character instead. Something like Psychic Rogue/Soulknife/Daggerspell Psion/Ebon Saint that uses the High Psionics advancement for Soulknife (i.e. all levels that progress your manifesting simultaneously progress your blade.) With your int focus you'd have tons of skills too.

[Yorae]

You could try a sneaky assassin-type character instead. Something like Psychic Rogue/Soulknife/Daggerspell Psion/Ebon Saint that uses the High Psionics advancement for Soulknife (i.e. all levels that progress your manifesting simultaneously progress your blade.) With your int focus you'd have tons of skills too.

Oooh, that's actually quite nice and fits very well for the character I had in mind. =D

May swap the PsyRogue levels for Ardent for the better manifesting, though.

Edit: Derp, no I won't. Need that SA.

Double Edit: Would Daggerspell Mage work with PF Soulknife? Not actually daggers.

[Psyren]

Double Edit: Would Daggerspell Mage work with PF Soulknife? Not actually daggers.

Well, Soulknife 2 gets you a bladeskill, which you can use to pick up the Mind Daggers shape (which is highly useful for other reasons too.) But none of the Daggerspell stuff really applies to you, because you don't have to worry about somatic components (i.e, it doesn't matter what's in your hands); the prc was just a way to advance your manifesting, mind blade and sneak attack all at the same time.

[Yorae]

Ouch, the PsyRogue power list looks pretty limiting. Was thinking they got the PsyWar's power list for some reason.

[Draz74]

Just

[PF]Soulknife 4 / Incarnate 1 / Soul Manifester 10

seems like it would be pretty decent. But it would require your DM agreeing to houserule the prerequisites of Soul Manifester so that you can get in without manifesting actual powers.

[Psyren]

Just

[PF]Soulknife 4 / Incarnate 1 / Soul Manifester 10

seems like it would be pretty decent. But it would require your DM agreeing to houserule the prerequisites of Soul Manifester so that you can get in without manifesting actual powers.

The other problem is the poor BAB. Totemist could somewhat get around this (via natural attacks, which don't get iteratives anyway) but you'd still be +7 to hit in the hole or thereabouts compared to a proper gish.


Ouch, the PsyRogue power list looks pretty limiting. Was thinking they got the PsyWar's power list for some reason.

You could ask for the Lurk's power list and PP progression instead. Or just plain use Lurk, though psionic sneak attack isn't as good and you'll take a skill point hit.

Their list isn't too bad though, which some very rogue-y tricks on it, and it definitely beats no powers at all.

If you do go Psywar, you're better off skipping Soulknife altogether and using Soulbound Weapon instead, even with the new Soulknife.

[Yorae]

Just

[PF]Soulknife 4 / Incarnate 1 / Soul Manifester 10

seems like it would be pretty decent. But it would require your DM agreeing to houserule the prerequisites of Soul Manifester so that you can get in without manifesting actual powers.

Would the incarnum stuff make up for 10 levels of poor BAB?

Also, if going with the non-incarnum option, is PsyRogue superior to Lurk? They seem very similar I've messed with PsyWars but neither either of those. Just a cursory glance suggests that the PsyRogue is physically better, but the Lurk has slightly better manifesting.. the difference in sneak attacks is pretty huge.

[Psyren]

Would the incarnum stuff make up for 10 levels of poor BAB?

Also, if going with the non-incarnum option, is PsyRogue superior to Lurk? They seem very similar I've messed with PsyWars but neither either of those. Just a cursory glance suggests that the PsyRogue is physically better, but the Lurk has slightly better manifesting.. the difference in sneak attacks is pretty huge.

*points up*

My preferred fix is to take the Lurks powers/PP/augments, and slap them onto the Psyrogue chassis. (skill points, class features and SA progression.) A gestalt if you will. That is what the Lurk should have been.

[Yorae]

Umm... how about a Soulknife 2 / PsyWar4, taking Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) at 6th, then moving into Daggerspell Mage 10 (Need Practiced Manifester to qualify) and Ebon Saint 4? You think that would be alright, or am I really just trying too hard?

[FMArthur]

Umm... how about a Soulknife 2 / PsyWar4, taking Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) at 6th, then moving into Daggerspell Mage 10 (Need Practiced Manifester to qualify) and Ebon Saint 4? You think that would be alright, or am I really just trying too hard?

You're trying too hard to be a Soulknife when Psychic Warrior obviates the class - even the Pathfinder one. Check out the Soulbound Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) Psychic Warrior ACF. It is basically a more flexible, more powerful Mind Blade put on a class that has far more and far better options.

[Person_Man]

I have a homebrew class which combines the Soulknife and the Soulborn - the War Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441).

Also, I don't think the RAW combo would be effective. You're better off just using a regular Incarnate using the Incarnum Weapon soulmeld. Don't worry about the 10/20 BAB. Once you finish stacking all of your various bonuses (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870566/Incarnate_by_the_numbers), you end up ahead of most full BAB classes. More importantly, the Incarnate has a metric ton of amazing all day defensive abilities: Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, Miss Change, multiple Deflect Arrow ability, retributive damage, massive bonus hit points, a necrocarnum zombie which can be replaced infinitely, unlimited healing, an so on. And that's before you double your power output with the Share Soulmelds feat.

[Yorae]

I have a homebrew class which combines the Soulknife and the Soulborn - the War Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441).

Also, I don't think the RAW combo would be effective. You're better off just using a regular Incarnate using the Incarnum Weapon soulmeld. Don't worry about the 10/20 BAB. Once you finish stacking all of your various bonuses (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870566/Incarnate_by_the_numbers), you end up ahead of most full BAB classes. More importantly, the Incarnate has a metric ton of amazing all day defensive abilities: Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, Miss Change, multiple Deflect Arrow ability, retributive damage, massive bonus hit points, a necrocarnum zombie which can be replaced infinitely, unlimited healing, an so on. And that's before you double your power output with the Share Soulmelds feat.

War Soul would be absolutely perfect if I could use homebrew.

What about the fewer iteratives he'd get? I guess I should really investigate incarnates more. I'll think on some potential builds to look at later.

Edit: My suggestion wouldn't really work anyway -- I can't take Assassin's stance at 6th level, I'd have to be at least 10th.

[Psyren]

Soulbound Weapon is really the way to go here; you get the scaling weapon that you want from Soulknife and a LOT more utility/power. If you want more BAB use the Pathfinder War Mind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/war-mind), which gives 10/10 BAB and 10/10 manifester progression for Psywars only (see the "Warrior's Journey" ability), plus some really nice class features. Ordinarily it would be balanced by you giving up on your Psywar paths to access it, but given that the 3.5 Psywar doesn't have any, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[Yorae]

I think my problem here is that the character I'm trying to build for would more accurately be described by a Soulknife/Soulborn. The requirements there are pretty much "good at melee" and "dual wielding blades made of soulstuff" , with optional soulmelding/manifesting.

Maybe I can convince my DM to allow War Soul. =p
What tier would that class be considered?

[Draz74]

Maybe I can convince my DM to allow War Soul. =p
What tier would that class be considered?

I've seen it rated as high Tier 4 before.

[Yorae]

The flavor of incarnum fits incredibly well and it seems really cool, but...

In practice, it seems like you'll get a pretty decent set of vanilla numerical bonuses that let you... uhhh... pretend to be a fighter? Except you don't get bonus feats and you can only make two attacks instead of four or five?

I guess bloodwar gauntlets let you use a sort of okay blast... once. Then unshape. -_-;

Dissolving Spittle lets you make decent ranged touch attacks, but a warlock you are not (and that isn't what this build is supposed to do at all).

Mauling Gauntlets are okay, but really only make up for one of the bonus fighter feats you didn't get.

Astral Vambraces and Mantle of Flame both look pretty good, but they are still providing static effects - they don't allow you to DO anything... Same with Impulse Boots.

Cerulean Sandals let you use Dimension Door... as a normal standard action... not gonna be jumping in for full attacks with this one.

It's all terribly underwhelming.

Some of the feats that combine incarnum with manifesting seem kind of neat, like Midnight Augmentation

[Big Fau]

The flavor of incarnum fits incredibly well and it seems really cool, but...

In practice, it seems like you'll get a pretty decent set of vanilla numerical bonuses that let you... uhhh... pretend to be a fighter? Except you don't get bonus feats and you can only make two attacks instead of four or five?

I guess bloodwar gauntlets let you use a sort of okay blast... once. Then unshape. -_-;

Dissolving Spittle lets you make decent ranged touch attacks, but a warlock you are not (and that isn't what this build is supposed to do at all).

Mauling Gauntlets are okay, but really only make up for one of the bonus fighter feats you didn't get.

Astral Vambraces and Mantle of Flame both look pretty good, but they are still providing static effects - they don't allow you to DO anything... Same with Impulse Boots.

Cerulean Sandals let you use Dimension Door... as a normal standard action... not gonna be jumping in for full attacks with this one.

It's all terribly underwhelming.

Some of the feats that combine incarnum with manifesting seem kind of neat, like Midnight Augmentation

What you are looking at is the tip of the iceberg. Methinks you (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.0) need to read (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943.0) a few handbooks. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6920.0)

And the Bloodwar Gauntlets are terrible.

[Cerlis]

hey, it might not be for you. if you want some incarnum but dont like most of the stuff, consider an incarnum race for free essentia, and an incarnum feat or two(each feat gives 1 essentia you notice). you can only put 1 or 2 essentia into an ability or feat at a time so you have many levels to decide if you want to grab more or just stick with it.

I mean, you could just grab the Soulknife specific feat and deal some extra damage everytime you put soul energy into your soulblade and be done with it.


so you get what you want without making a big commitment. look over the feats and decide if thats a path you want to take.

However. I am a big speaker of "just cus its good doesnt mean everyone has to like it." incarnum might not be for you,and there are probably other ways to get the feel of what you are going for, heck maybe there is a Ki point prestige class you can use. use stunning attempts with this Ki feat or that ki feat to paralize, do extra damage, ect, by channeling your Ki (soul energy) into your weapon.

But even if Incarnum seems boring to you because its the master of static bonuses, doesnt mean i dont love the idea of Deflecting a spell with my soul power, then focusing that energy into my feet allowing me to sprint at high speeds to reach my opponent,then focus that energy into my arms and body to create a brilliant cloak of fire around me as i take down the caster in hand to hand combat while he gets immolated by my soul.


Also did you look at totemist? Each totem basically lets you get the bonuses toa specialty of that animal (like sneakery), but binding it to your totem chakra gives you a great bonus, such as natural weapons or special attacks like breath weapons and the like. I looked forward to playing a barbarianesc Wild women like in that movie by the guy who did Howls moving castle. A skirmishing savage person wearing the head of some fierce monster and the cloak of another beast almost invisible in the night, terrorizing a bandit camp, captureing people and scaring the crap out of them with his boody Krenshar mask while he interrogates and intimidates them, spreading fear of a horrible forest spirit.

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But like i suggested, we are just speaking kindly of Incarnum because it is a good system and you mentioned it. If you dont like it, dont do it.