big teej's build challenge

[big teej]

greetings playgrounders,

I"ve a new challenge for you.

with the limited sources available, I need you to build me a necromancer. this necromancer is not a minionmancer, instead focusing on a few powerful servants (no more than 5)

sources available are....
DMG I
DMG II
PHB I
PHB II
MM I
MM II
MM III
BOVD
BOED
UA
A&EG
Races of Stone
Masters of the wild
Deities and Demigods
Magic of Incarnum
Oriental Adventures
Expanded Psionics handbook
Cityscape
Psionics Handbook
Song and Silence
Defenders of the Faith
Enemies and Allies
Sword and Fist
Tome and Blood

no other sources are allowed, period.

thanks a bunch guys.

[bigstipidfighte]

Well, several of those books I have never even looked at, exept perhaps once or twice in pdf form to look up a specific feat or whatnot, so I probably won't be any help, but since i'm here I'll go ahead an ask:

1) When you say Necromancer, do you mean as in Wizard who specailizes in the school, or can it be any class as long as the build focuses on Necromancy?

2) I'm going to go out on a limb and assume this is for an actual game, and that those books are the ones the DM owns. If so, will there be any alignment restrictions? "No Evil" or even "Good Only" are completely workable, but we'll need to know that going in.

3) Is there any particular level you want the build to focs on? i.e. if you think the game will likely run from levels 5 to 15, or 1 to 8, or whatever.

[big teej]

Well, several of those books I have never even looked at, exept perhaps once or twice in pdf form to look up a specific feat or whatnot, so I probably won't be any help, but since i'm here I'll go ahead an ask:

1) When you say Necromancer, do you mean as in Wizard who specailizes in the school, or can it be any class as long as the build focuses on Necromancy?

2) I'm going to go out on a limb and assume this is for an actual game, and that those books are the ones the DM owns. If so, will there be any alignment restrictions? "No Evil" or even "Good Only" are completely workable, but we'll need to know that going in.

3) Is there any particular level you want the build to focs on? i.e. if you think the game will likely run from levels 5 to 15, or 1 to 8, or whatever.

1) any class is acceptable, as long as they can fulfill the requirement of having a few (no more than 5) relatively powerful undead servants.

2) indeed, this is for an actual game, and yes, those are the books I own. the only alignment restrictions I enforce are "necromancers cannot be good" the player doesn't care if she's evil, but she'd rather be neutral. so if the build stays within Lawful Neutral that would be best.

3) the game is currently at level 7, and will progress as long as the group can keep meeting.

[Crow]

I would start by trading in your familiar for a skeletal minion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#skeletalMinion). You could possibly go with the enhanced undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#enhancedUndead)varian t as well, but that one is really painful, requiring the loss of bonus spells. Still, you might not mind because it is a nice boost to your minions (and skeletal minion).

[NecroRick]

well, the obvious sources, libris mortis and heroes of horror aren't on the list, so no tomb-tainted dread necromancer shenannigans.

Currently I am quite taken with the idea of an "accidental" necromancer, ie one who gets their minions from somewhere else. Maybe you steal them from the bad guy, maybe you get them through fell drain or fell animate. Of course the fell feats aren't on the list either.

From the bovd verminfriend (for that lolth look, its been 20 years, must be fashionable again) or mortalbane (if you take a race with a special ability that can do damage), both have appeal.

There's an eberron feat that lets druids summon vermin with their summon natures ally, if you're going down the vermin path that would work well and you might be able to rule of cool it in.

But, you might ask, where does a druid get off the necromancer bus? Well, one way would be to put a point or two into UMD and lug around a couple of scrolls of animate dead. Another way would be to sneak in a domain, specifically the death domain. Maybe via a prestige class (I thought there was a feat that archivists could use to get a domain and that the druid would be able to sneak it in that way too, but couldn't find it... but there's an acf for this?)

[brujon]

Well, for starters, you could apply the Spellstitched template to your Minion... It's also a good idea to get Undead Leadership. (Or Normal Leadership -> See next trick.) ( http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x ) Since you'll be a Wizard, this will increase MAD, so you probably won't gain much bonuses.

Getting 2 Scrolls of PaO to make yourself into a Undead (Choose your poison... Wight/Vampire is fun for Create Spawn family-fun times), then apply the Spellstitched template to yourself, permanently changing your type to Undead and "sticking" the PaO change (Thus preventing a dispel magic from ending the transformation).

Mind you this costs 1 feat, your familiar, and 6000 GP for the 2 Polymorph Any Object scrolls. Plus the XP costs for the Spellstitched template (MM2)

This leaves a ton of room for other customizations, such as metamagic, spell selection, etc.... If you had access to Libris Mortis/Heroes of Horror/Spell Compendium i could give you more...

*Since Undead Leadership gives you lower-level Cohorts/Followers on reason of they being undead, you could always get vanilla Leadership and then use a race with Create Spawn to make your Cohort/Higher Level followers Vampires/Wights. Making them super-strong.

*(Because leadership is Keyed of CHA, and you don't have Races of Faerun... If you did, we could Cancer Mage shenanigans(Over9000 STR with Festering Anger) + Might Makes Right to pump up your leadership score. That plus Races of Destiny and being a Illumian with Aeshkrau would give you STR to bonus spells...)

EDIT: You can also make your DM cry by stacking templates on the Undead you're polymorphing to... Since you can polymorph to *anything*, pick a heavily templated beast.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

( http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x )

Wait, does this undead leadership over-ride the one in Libris Mortis?


Also in DMG II there are two feats, apprentice and then mentor. If you take them you can trade the first one in for the second one once you hit level five. Once you get to level nine your apprentice that you get from the mentor feat follows you like a cohort but four levels less then you.

[brujon]

I couldn't find a date on the article, so i can't affirm if the article came before or after Libris Mortis came out. But since the OP doesn't own Libris Mortis anyway, he can use that Undead Leadership no problem.

At any rate, it's a pity that the OP doesn't own Heroes of Horror/Libris Mortis, because some of the best templates you can apply to undead are there, not to mention the 3-level Master Vampire PRC which you can qualify to get with my PaO + Spellstitched trick...

EDIT: Also, i was thinking for a bit, and you'd want to be a Sorcerer instead of a wizard to cast from CHA, so you can boost your leadership also. Optimizing CHA is relatively easy. Being a Vampire also boosts Cha... Then you could cherry pick lot's of buffs that enhance undead and apply them to yourself/your cohort. For bonus points, make your Cohort a Cleric, so you have access to both divine and arcane necromancy. Also, cheap healing in the form of Negative Energy.

[big teej]

I couldn't find a date on the article, so i can't affirm if the article came before or after Libris Mortis came out. But since the OP doesn't own Libris Mortis anyway, he can use that Undead Leadership no problem.

At any rate, it's a pity that the OP doesn't own Heroes of Horror/Libris Mortis, because some of the best templates you can apply to undead are there, not to mention the 3-level Master Vampire PRC which you can qualify to get with my PaO + Spellstitched trick...

it's a work in progress :smalltongue:

[bigstipidfighte]

Okay, so here's a character concept for you: A priestess of Wee Jas. Her father is the local high priest, and she's been pretty much raised within the confines of a temple complex most of her life. Once she came of age she was allowed to go out on missions with other operatives; hunting down enemies of the faith, searching for lost or stolen artefacts, whatever Daddy needed done. Between assignments she would return to the temple to study until she was needed again. Undead minions are a tool to her, not a lifestyle.

Class: Cleric of Wee Jas 7 (Death and Magic domains)
ACFs: Cloistered Cleric (UA), Spontaneous Domain Casting: Magic Domain (PHB2)


Minions:

The Wight Brothers (controlled via Rebuking):

A pair of Wights follow the PC everywhere she goes, unless prevented by socail or other considerations. They wear grey cloaks and holy symbols of Wee Jas, remaining hooded at all times to keep their undead nature hidden. They speak little, but if pressed into conversation will introduce themselves as acolytes devoted to Wee Jas, assigned to serve and protect the PC.

Role: As CR 3 monsters, the Wights are only moderately useful in a combat situation, though they will make perfectly good flankers or meat shields. With +16 to Move Silently they may also make decent scouts, especailly if they are made Invisible. Any humanoid killed by a Wight becomes one, but since it sounds like your player isn't interested in an undead army there is little chance of this getting abused. You should mention to your player that anyone killed by negative levels becomes a Wight, so even if these two die, they can be replaced.

Slashchompslash (animated):

Some time ago the PC created an Advanced Megaraptor Skeleton to keep as a pet. After killing the beast she (or more likely one of her Wight minions) carefully removed the hide and the guts. She then desecrated the area, animated the skeleton, and, after days of meticulous work, sewed the beast's hide back on, giving it the appearance of a real live dinosaur. It now masquerades as a large, exotic, and extremely dangerous pet. Why is it named Slashchompslash? Well I'm glad you asked, because that brings me to-

Role: This thing has five attacks per round. And its fast. A 60 ft speed makes it ideal for use as a mobile striker, and while it might not be dishing out damage on the level of the actual tanks, it should be able to do enough that it can't simply be ignored. It can take a few hits before going down, and is also more expendable than a PC, thus making it the perfect candidate to chase after a fleeing enemy, or one who is attacking from long range. After all, if it walks into a trap, there are always more corpses to animate. Still, that's no reason not to have some nonmagical armor made for it. At level 7, the expense should be relatively trivial. Alternatively it could serve as a mount. Also, betting NPCs 50 gold that they can't say its name 10 times fast is a surefire way to reclaim any gold spent on animating new minions.

These three offer a solid minion base, but they're far from the best team a level 7 Cleric could put together. I did that intentionally, so there would be room to improve the ranks if the player takes the initiative to do so. At the moment she can control up tp another 20 Hit Dice of skeletons and zombies. If you prefer to have a stronger starting force, Slashchompslash could easily have a mate... dare I suggest the name Chompslashchomp?


Feats: Improved Turning is a must. I'd recommend Spell Focus (Necromancy). Aside from raising the dead necromancy has some save-or-die spells, plus Fear effects that are potentailly very powerful. Mounted Combat is awesome in the event she ends up riding undead in combat (and the odds of that happening at some point along the line are pretty good)

Skill Ranks: Craft(Taxidermy) is neccesary to make Slashchompslash and any future skeleton minions look less monstrous. Concentration obviously. Other than that it's pretty much whatever you want. Personally I would recommend Gather Info, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Search, Disguise, anything that would help you out when investigating things.


Side note: Necrocarnum zombies. I've heard these things are badass and worth dipping into a MoI class for, but when I looked them up I discovered their HD is caped by your meldshaper level. I didn't see any obvious way to pimp Meldshaper level out, but if its possible than it might be worth a caster level hit. (For flavor reasons more than optimization. These things are cool.) Also, a cleric of Wee jas could easily qualify for Sapphire Hierarch, but I don't know enough about MoI to say whether it would be a good option or not. The Necrcarnate PrC appears to be made of fail. Stay away form it.

[Tvtyrant]

Totemist 7/Necrocarnate 13 gets you two extremely powerful zombies and access to all of the meldshapes in existence. You need an item familiar to make it work, but the result gets you all of the abilities in Incarnum. Incarnate/Necrocarnate also works, with slightly more essentia but less meldshapes and chakra options.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, you don't have the Book of Bad Latin (Libris Mortis) or the Book of Bad People (Heroes of Horror), which really does put a cramp in your style as a Necromancer.

One interesting thing I have found, though...

Skeletons keep special attacks and special qualities that are related to attacks. So a Leopard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leopard.htm) skeleton has five attacks on a charge... a bite, two claws, and two rakes.

Another interesting thing:

Ghosts retain their skills after death. So a Ghost Bard can IC your minions. In fact, if he also gains experience, he can then level and be a more powerful ghost bard. Say he is a 4th level Bard who perished and was buried with his masterwork mandolin and his badge of valor.

So now your pouncing skeletal kitties have serious bonuses to attack and damage per hit. Too bad Dragon Magic isn't on the list, or I'd suggest DFI.

I'd suggest at least one incorporeal for scouting and level draining while the opponent is busy with your bruisers. Wraiths are good for con damage, wights for level drain.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Well with OA he could become an Akutenshi (Pg. 241-243) which is a great undead to play.

[bigstipidfighte]

@Shneeky: Your ideas are solid, but you're forgetting Turn Resistance is the great bane of Rebuking. So no incorporeal Undead at this level, at least none that I know of. Maybe MM2 or 3 has something.

As for MoI... Yes? No? Maybe? Never used it myself, so I can't comment on how good it is outside of the zombies, but I will say that while the zombies are cool, if they're the only undead you can make than that's taking an axe to my concept of what a necro is.

[Tvtyrant]

@Shneeky: Your ideas are solid, but you're forgetting Turn Resistance is the great bane of Rebuking. So no incorporeal Undead at this level, at least none that I know of. Maybe MM2 or 3 has something.

As for MoI... Yes? No? Maybe? Never used it myself, so I can't comment on how good it is outside of the zombies, but I will say that while the zombies are cool, if they're the only undead you can make than that's taking an axe to my concept of what a necro is.

Why? A Necrocarnate directly absorbs souls to power their abilities and can raise more powerful zombies than anyone else (they don't have the move or attack issue of other zombies). Plus the HD of the zombies is based on their Meldshaper levels, so they can have 20HD human zombies if they want.

[Soranar]

Reasons you need the book of bad latin besides access to templates and classes:

-corpse crafter feats (undead creatures you create are stronger)
-undead boosting auras (undeads under your command get a higher turn resistance, bonus to hit , damage, etc).
-undead leadership (get an undead cohort).

In short, it's really really hard to optimize this build without it.

How to get the book. (according to site rules I can't tell you where you can find it but I can tell you to do the following)

Google it.

[Flickerdart]

Ah, but never fear! WotC posts exerpts (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001a) of books, and the Libris Mortis one has Corpsecrafter and Destruction Retribution. The 3.0 Undead Leadership (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) is also online, though I'm not sure if the newer version is different.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Ok so the Book of Bad Latin's Undead Leadership is the 3.5 version and the better one at that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

@Shneeky: Your ideas are solid, but you're forgetting Turn Resistance is the great bane of Rebuking. So no incorporeal Undead at this level, at least none that I know of. Maybe MM2 or 3 has something. It's pathetically easy to increase effective turning/rebuking level. Phylactery of Undead Turning also affects Rebuking, due to the wording in the ability Turn/Rebuke Undead, for example. And most Incorporeal undead have pathetic HD, which is why it is shored up with Turn Resistance.

Ghosts, for example, only have a Turn Resistance of +4, and HD = character level.

A Wraith is only 5HD with Turn Resistance +2, for a total of 7HD worth of turning.

A Spectre (2 negative levels per touch) is 7HD with +2 Turn Resistance for a total of 9 effective HD.

A Shadow is only 3hd with a +2 Turn Resistance for a total of 5 effective HD.

Incorporeal creatures are really handy to rebuke. The turn resistance doesn't hinder as much as you think it does...

And none of it is effective against Control/Command Undead...

[Tvtyrant]

It's pathetically easy to increase effective turning/rebuking level. Phylactery of Undead Turning also affects Rebuking, due to the wording in the ability Turn/Rebuke Undead, for example. And most Incorporeal undead have pathetic HD, which is why it is shored up with Turn Resistance.

Ghosts, for example, only have a Turn Resistance of +4, and HD = character level.

A Wraith is only 5HD with Turn Resistance +2, for a total of 7HD worth of turning.

A Spectre (2 negative levels per touch) is 7HD with +2 Turn Resistance for a total of 9 effective HD.

A Shadow is only 3hd with a +2 Turn Resistance for a total of 5 effective HD.

Incorporeal creatures are really handy to rebuke. The turn resistance doesn't hinder as much as you think it does...

And none of it is effective against Control/Command Undead...
Another reason to go with Necrocarnate; they are not mindless and they get double your invested essentia in turn resistance; a turn resistance of 16 provides pretty good protection.

[bigstipidfighte]

The Phylactery will help keep Rebuking relevant later on. As of 7th level it's too expensive to buy, unless the DM waives the rule of not being able to spend more than half your wealth on one item.

As for Command Undead... its effectiveness is determined by the DM's interpretation of "obviously harmful," and also whether he or she thinks the Charisma check should take an action. I tend to avoid abilities that work only when my DM is in a generous mood, but that's just a personal choice.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Another reason to go with Necrocarnate; they are not mindless and they get double your invested essentia in turn resistance; a turn resistance of 16 provides pretty good protection.

Bolster Undead is a fine thing...

[big teej]

Reasons you need the book of bad latin besides access to templates and classes:

-corpse crafter feats (undead creatures you create are stronger)
-undead boosting auras (undeads under your command get a higher turn resistance, bonus to hit , damage, etc).
-undead leadership (get an undead cohort).

In short, it's really really hard to optimize this build without it.

How to get the book. (according to site rules I can't tell you where you can find it but I can tell you to do the following)

Google it.


the capability concerns me far more than it being "optimized capability"

[ShneekeyTheLost]

the capability concerns me far more than it being "optimized capability"

Hell, you don't even have any of the Complete series, which also severely limits your ability to function as a necromancer.

Shoot, you don't even have access to any necromanctic PrC's, or any decent character options.

Honestly, your only real option is straight Cleric...

[bigstipidfighte]

<<<------ *said this ages ago*

Cloistered Cleric of Wee Jas w/ spontaneous domain casting(magic)