Microtransactions in D&D

[Alaris]

My DM has recently come to the conclusion that he is going to allow players to pay him real-world money for in-game benefits. This is something I vehemently disagree with, but I figured I would make a post and ask how the Playgrounders feel about this kind of thing.

He's offered things like the following:

-$10 for a maximum hit die.
-$1 for a reroll, once per session.
-$5 for 6 Luck Points.

And he's coming up with other packages, possibly with actual items involved (magic or otherwise), and possibly XP or levels.

This just screams of MMO's with microtransactions, and I really feel uncomfortable about it. I didn't think it would bother me that much, since I didn't think the players would ACTUALLY use it, but one of them infact did.

So, how do others feel about something like this?

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Okay, I think it would seem unfair if I didn't add this. He provides figs and whatnot for the groups D&D games (several DMs), and due to the rigors of play, they end up breaking, due to not individuals fault.

This is a means to fix or replace this figs.

Even so, I still don't approve. People need to donate to a D&D fund to replace figs, rather than offering stuff for Real-World Money.

>.<

[Arbane]

This is a gag, right?

[Alaris]

This is a gag, right?

I wish... I wish it were. Otherwise, he's an awesome DM. But this just pushed all the wrong buttons.

[Trinoya]

Since I believe in taking credit for my ideas, I am the DM in question, and I recently just put 3,000 dollars on my car and have been providing, free of charge countless figurines, tiles, and other items that have been busted, destroyed, or flat out lost over the years. I used to have a donation fund for such things (including snacks and chips) but it when bust a few years back after the entire fund vanished while at a friends house.

As such it is a way to generate income both for the game and a bit for my own personal wallet, I decided why not see how it works. For the record no major bonuses are being given in the game as is, and there are definitive caps on how things work... Good, bad, not really a big deal for me, players have the choice to spend their money how they want, and I only think one player (who is a whopping 8 levels behind the highest level character) is going to take advantage of it.

Furthermore: I've gone to the player above on ways to 'balance' the ideas, since I know he is against it.

[Malimar]

This just screams of MMO's with microtransactions, and I really feel uncomfortable about it.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with MMOs. It's a good business model.

However: "friendship" and "good business model" are not concepts that should appear in proximity to one another.

On the other hand: what is this, other than the reasonable "the DM is the only one who doesn't have to bring snacks and soft drinks to share" system taken to a logical extreme?

That said, I'd probably rethink my friendship with this guy. If he just thinks of his players as a potential cash source, then he isn't a friend or a DM so much as he is an investor.

[Big Fau]

What's the point of even playing? I can understand being short on cash, but that's just absurd.


It may be time for you to go digital pal, because you've hit the bottom rung. Have your players bring laptops to the table and host it on a local server. There are dozens of freeware programs capable of assisting you in this, and you'll never have to pay for sheets or figs or maps again.


Edit: And I don't care how good you are as a DM; accepting what effectively amounts to a cash bribe for in-game benefits is low.

[Alaris]

Since I believe in taking credit for my ideas, I am the DM in question, and I recently just put 3,000 dollars on my car and have been providing, free of charge countless figurines, tiles, and other items that have been busted, destroyed, or flat out lost over the years. I used to have a donation fund for such things (including snacks and chips) but it when bust a few years back after the entire fund vanished while at a friends house.

As such it is a way to generate income both for the game and a bit for my own personal wallet, I decided why not see how it works. For the record no major bonuses are being given in the game as is, and there are definitive caps on how things work... Good, bad, not really a big deal for me, players have the choice to spend their money how they want, and I only think one player (who is a whopping 8 levels behind the highest level character) is going to take advantage of it.

Furthermore: I've gone to the player above on ways to 'balance' the ideas, since I know he is against it.

While I understand your predicament with needing pocket money and the like, I recommend restarting the D&D fund. Yes, the other player is 8 levels behind, but... I'm sorry, it's just something I don't exactly like.

And we have yet to discuss this "balancing" thing.


Hey, there's nothing wrong with MMOs. It's a good business model.

However: "friendship" and "good business model" are not concepts that should appear in proximity to one another.

On the other hand: what is this, other than the reasonable "the DM is the only one who doesn't have to bring snacks and soft drinks to share" system taken to a logical extreme?

That said, I'd probably rethink my friendship with this guy. If he just thinks of his players as a potential cash source, then he isn't a friend or a DM so much as he is an investor.

He is still a friend, he is just in need of money. It's a little much, honestly... but he claims that he will not be offering 'major' bonuses. I consider MAX HIT DICE, and SIX LUCK POINTS to be pretty major bonuses. The luck points are something I might be able to deal with... but the hit dice thing just rubs me the wrong way.

[Vultawk]

I'd personally think a general agreement for upkeep of the game's stuff isn't a bad thing, be it replacing minis, tiles and the like or just deciding "Okay, this week, Rich is bringing the pizza, Steve's bringing the snacks, and Anthony's bringing the crazy... again."

As a DM and a friend, I'd feel weird about charging my friends for stuff. Like at all. (My personal policy is that it's only money and it's all water under the bridge when it comes to friends, but I can understand the economic situation some may be in. I'm far from rich myself.)

[Shadowknight12]

He's been watching too much Extra Credits and/or he wants to set up a MMORPG and is using you guys as a free testing crowd for the microtransaction aspect.

I'd slap him.

[Vandicus]

Asking for some financial aid to cover costs is acceptable.

Charging for features that simply make characters superior is not. I would absolutely refuse to play in a D&D session like this, or break the game entirely. People don't like the "GM's girlfriend" characters for good reason, and this is along the same lines.

A reasonable compromise if he likes this model is to charge for writing up extra content directed towards a person's character, to further explore their backstory or something along those lines in a way not originally a part of the campaign.

[Alaris]

*Sigh* Okay. I have to apologize to this forum. I'm essentially using it as a way to vent how I feel on the subject, and look for other people who agree with me. It seems like a childish thing to do, to essentially somehow "prove him wrong, by having more people who think I'm right."

I will have to apologize to the DM, for bringing something that should not be out in public, onto a public forum for the entire world to see. It is an assanine thing to do. For those of you who wish to still discuss it, you can, but I believe I rushed into this, feeling pissed off on the matter.

My DM has the right to choose how to run his game, and if he wishes to offer these things, he is allowed to. The other players are allowed to use that feature. But I won't... it's simply not for me.

[Vultawk]

Eh, emotional stuff like that is just human (or half-orc, but definitely not dwarven), I wouldn't worry too much about it on our end. Really, the best advice anyone could get for most situations brought here seems to be "just talk it out". Obviously, no one should game with someone they can't be adults and discuss things with, so that should always be the first recourse.

[Trinoya]

Regardless of if anything is rushed, I'm not afraid of the criticism posted by the forum. I'll take my blows as well as the next guy and stand by my principles that led me to the decision.

However, I do intend to put the game into context.

This game gives a total of five bonus feats to level 20 (more if it goes epic) and every characters starts the game with six luck points, something obtainable in the game world.

This game is also a high powered game. Every 'chapter' the players get a set of ten rolls, reroll 1s. They pick the highest seven and distribute them amongst their stats as they see fit. These rolls must have a total of 95 points or higher or they are considered invalid and get to be rerolled.

Every hit die in the game gets rerolled on a roll of a 1, once. The average stats and powers in the game that occur are fairly over powered. The player who started this thread was awarded via wild magic, an ability that makes him automatically save on any save that isn't a 1, the ability is lost if he ever rolls a 1. He is a fate spinner.

I use this as example for the highpowered aspect of the game and the extremely highpowered nature of the players vs the NPCs. I commonly award more powerful items and abilities to players for in game actions constantly and consistently, I am not stingy with this stuff, creating templates and oither abilities for players to utilize.


At the end of the day I figured giving players an option for a reroll once per session, to refill their luck points to the maximum of six, or to maximize an, unlikely, poorly rolled hit die (an option they can choose to do after they roll it) to not be broken in this game world.


Also, it was and is entirely optional.




So I will let these blows come, and you, my player, need not feel guilty or ashamed for posting anything here, I don't care and I won't ever hold it against you, and you certainly shouldn't hold it against yourself.

I just want the context to exist.

[Rogue Shadows]

He's been watching too much Extra Credits and/or he wants to set up a MMORPG and is using you guys as a free testing crowd for the microtransaction aspect.

I'd slap him.

Asking for permission to do so first, presumably...

----------------------------------

Mmn...I don't know how to feel about this, honestly, as I once had a "you guys never buy any damned books yourself and they're really expensive because Wizards hates softcover, never mind the cost of mats and miniatures and the fact that I walk two and a half hours mostly uphill to get here while lugging all this crap, so seriously fork over some dough*" fund myself.

But as for microtransactions...

...eh. I dunno.

----------------------------------
*This was a few years ago, before they all got cars so we would meet at the "local" library (local for them, not me)...but it was about six miles, it was largely uphill, and yes, I would do it in the snow.

[Shadowknight12]

So I will let these blows come, and you, my player, need not feel guilty or ashamed for posting anything here, I don't care and I won't ever hold it against you, and you certainly shouldn't hold it against yourself.

I just want the context to exist.

Explaining yourself + Not caring = Does not compute.

Other than that, I'm still mystified as to why you'd turn an informal activity with alleged friends into a business. Maybe I'm too old for these newfangled generations, but I still consider the act of charging a friend for anything to be inherently abhorrent. Or even if they're merely strangers at the table, to subvert their expectations of what tabletop roleplaying is about and then introducing a business aspect to it.


Asking for permission to do so first, presumably...

Not if permission is implicit! My friends always give me permission to slap them when they're doing something awful and/or stupid. :smallwink:

[HunterOfJello]

Microtransactions are only permissible if they come in the form of food and drinks at the table or sexual favors preferably away from the table.

[Greenish]

I was confused for quite a while, since I thought the OP's edit was talking about the fruit of Ficus carica, and couldn't see how they would "break due to rigours of play". :smallamused:


8-level gap between the highest and the lowest level characters seems a bit suspect, too.

[Alaris]

I was confused for quite a while, since I thought the OP's edit was talking about the fruit of Ficus carica, and couldn't see how they would "break due to rigours of play". :smallamused:


8-level gap between the highest and the lowest level characters seems a bit suspect, too.

The 8 level difference is, while extreme, expected for this chapter, and we were warned of it.

We had the option of playing older characters (at their current level, which would generally be 9+), or a new character at level 6. This represents that there AREN'T a ton of 10+ level people running around the world, waiting to help our party. Most of them are busy.

[sparkyinbozo]

I hear the frustration with having your efforts or property taken seriously; that's a legitimate concern. I do think there might be a better way to go about it, though, like by mentioning the concerns to the other players and asking for their advice on how to deal with it. Odds are they'll be reasonable.

A lot of them might not realize that it happens, or realize the extent that it drains you (I don't know them, obviously).

I do think that single-handedly going about it might make you come across as mean-spirited or greedy to the other players.

[NichG]

This kind of thing can go in a bad direction - the DM could end up basically extorting money from the players by putting them in situations so bad that only via RL payment they can escape, at which point it becomes an issue for the player: do I quit the game and leave this circle of friends, or buckle and give the DM money?

That said, I've got a player in the campaign I'm currently running whose character has the 'Cheat' power. He can basically cheat a certain number of times per game in the traditional ways: adjusting die rolls, lying about what's on his sheet, using out of character information, etc. It was quite amusing when he activated it in order to bribe me to change a plot point (the bribe was just a pencil, so it was more kudos for the audacity of it).

[Alaris]

This kind of thing can go in a bad direction - the DM could end up basically extorting money from the players by putting them in situations so bad that only via RL payment they can escape, at which point it becomes an issue for the player: do I quit the game and leave this circle of friends, or buckle and give the DM money?

That said, I've got a player in the campaign I'm currently running whose character has the 'Cheat' power. He can basically cheat a certain number of times per game in the traditional ways: adjusting die rolls, lying about what's on his sheet, using out of character information, etc. It was quite amusing when he activated it in order to bribe me to change a plot point (the bribe was just a pencil, so it was more kudos for the audacity of it).

Like I've said before, the DM in question is an amazing DM. He weaves stories like no other I've met, and I believe he runs the best game I've ever had the pleasure of playing. I do not PERSONALLY believe he'd force us into a situation where we'd NEED to pay to survive.

I've discussed it with the DM personally, and I believe it can be worked out to a point where it is REASONABLE. I won't be participating in buying bonuses, luck points, or anything of the like, but I may discuss the system with him to make it more... fair, is the word.

Also... I find the "Cheat" ability very entertaining.

[IthroZada]

Microtransactions have a bad habit of turning into a situation, not where you are paying money to improve your character. but where you are paying money to simply be on par with other players. Granted, in a group of six people, it might not even get to that, but on MMOs, it is always like that. Which is why I don't play microtransaction games of any sort, MMO, D&D, or otherwise.

[Ernir]

If you want to become a Professional DM, fine. Charge for admission. If you're so worth it, people will pay, right?

But don't completely screw up the game by making money have an impact on your players' in-game success.

[Amphetryon]

Microtransactions are only permissible if they come in the form of food and drinks at the table or sexual favors preferably away from the table.Thanks. I know my players. There's an image that'll stay with me for a while. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NightmareFuel)
:smalleek:

[elpollo]

and a bit for my own personal wallet

And this is why I'd never pay to play D&D (uh... well, the DM, anyway. I have paid £1 per session for a location before, since we were in a comic book store staying open after hours). I expect to be playing with friends who enjoy the game, regardless of their role in the group. We play because we enjoy it. I shouldn't have to pay for someone to enjoy themselves.



and you, my player, need not feel guilty or ashamed for posting anything here, I don't care and I won't ever hold it against you, and you certainly shouldn't hold it against yourself.

Not only does this sound patronising, but it also sounds like you have held it against him at least long enough to 'forgive him'.


Seriously, though, every group loses dice, breaks miniatures (if they use them), needs books, etc. A lot of people struggle with money. This is not a cheap hobby, and your situation is quite common, yet people still (as a rule) don't ask for money. Asking people for money seems to indicate you're not getting anything out of the situation, which is, of course, wrong. If you want to provide a high quality DM experience, and you feel that that requires tiles and expensive miniatures (which I'd disagree with - why not just use printed out tokens and some sort of gaming mat you can draw on?), that's on your head, and you have to accept that using such things can (and inevitably will) lead to some of them being damaged or lost.

Also, don't forget that unless you have a stupidly high rate of loss of figures, the players bringing £3 worth of snacks to the table each game are quickly going to be regularly spending much more money on the table than you are.

[Luckmann]

Hah, hah, heh *cough*

I really thought this was a gag at first.

You need to dump that DM like a bad habit.

[Kingscourt]

Overcoming my own personal (and everyone else's apparently :smallyuk:) kneejerk "no... just no" reaction, there are a lot of dangers I think OPs DM is going to have to be aware of. While I understand the woes of having all of the tiles and models and hosting every session, and having your models disappear or break all the time, I can't really see this going well...

The biggest issue you're going to have to deal with, is the non-paying members in your group will expect the microtransactions not to have a real effect on the game, while the paying members will expect the exact opposite. And when these two collide, you're going to have a real issue.

For example sure, re-rolling a dice one per session sounds fine, and maybe player X buys one every session, because it's not a lot of money for him, and sure it's fine for a few sessions, but what happens when he needs to make a bluff against player Y, tanks his roll... and then gets to re-roll it? If the DM responds to player Y with "Sorry... he paid for it" then you're essentially ruining the ability for the players to immerse themselves in the game-world.

And I don't know your group this well, so you guys might be less roleplay oriented, but I personally would have trouble getting in character knowing someone paid real-world money to just outperform my character. The paying players will expect their money to be put to have a result in the game, and the non-paying players will find it unfair that the paying players do.

I would suggest some sort of donation, or schedule for your players to bring food, or buy their own models, rather than this method personally, but hey, this is just my 2 cents.

Side note: 10 bucks for max hit die? If you're going to go through with this... I recommend cutting all those prices in half... at least.

[Grey Knight]

If all the players (by which I include the GM) of your group are okay with it then it's fine; if somebody's not then have a discussion about it. You don't need to get permission from the Internet. In my local gaming group we each give £1 to whoever's hosting (except at my house; I'm often low on food since I live alone, so I take payment in snacks instead). We're all friends, but we want to cover each other's costs and pay the kind person for their time. It hasn't been a problem for us, we all have an agreement about it; some of the more altruistic guys don't like to ask for money, but we give it without being asked anyway.

I've played in games with "purchasable benefits" like these before as well, and it's generally gone fine in my experience. The four principles I'd advise to keep things reasonable are:

Make sure all players are okay with it.
Allow players to purchase things for each other. This one goes a long way.
Make sure challenges can be completed reasonably without the extra benefits.
Cap allowed expenditure at some level above the character with the least (possibly zero) benefits. This is to stop the "rich kid" taking over.


#4 is meant to work in such a way as to track the amount of benefits held by a character, even if bought by another. If the "rich kid" decides to buy presents for all the rest of the party, I say let him!

It sounds like you two are working out #1, so good on you! :-) From the description it sounds like you've missed out the possibility of #2, try it!

For that matter, you could simplify and just make it a party activity; if somebody pays then everybody gets a benefit!

[big teej]

My DM has recently come to the conclusion that he is going to allow players to pay him real-world money for in-game benefits. This is something I vehemently disagree with, but I figured I would make a post and ask how the Playgrounders feel about this kind of thing.

He's offered things like the following:

-$10 for a maximum hit die.
-$1 for a reroll, once per session.
-$5 for 6 Luck Points.

And he's coming up with other packages, possibly with actual items involved (magic or otherwise), and possibly XP or levels.

This just screams of MMO's with microtransactions, and I really feel uncomfortable about it. I didn't think it would bother me that much, since I didn't think the players would ACTUALLY use it, but one of them infact did.

So, how do others feel about something like this?

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Okay, I think it would seem unfair if I didn't add this. He provides figs and whatnot for the groups D&D games (several DMs), and due to the rigors of play, they end up breaking, due to not individuals fault.

This is a means to fix or replace this figs.

Even so, I still don't approve. People need to donate to a D&D fund to replace figs, rather than offering stuff for Real-World Money.

>.<

I'll be honest....
response = :smallconfused: + :smallfurious:


Since I believe in taking credit for my ideas, I am the DM in question, and I recently just put 3,000 dollars on my car and have been providing, free of charge countless figurines, tiles, and other items that have been busted, destroyed, or flat out lost over the years. I used to have a donation fund for such things (including snacks and chips) but it when bust a few years back after the entire fund vanished while at a friends house.

As such it is a way to generate income both for the game and a bit for my own personal wallet, I decided why not see how it works. For the record no major bonuses are being given in the game as is, and there are definitive caps on how things work... Good, bad, not really a big deal for me, players have the choice to spend their money how they want, and I only think one player (who is a whopping 8 levels behind the highest level character) is going to take advantage of it.

Furthermore: I've gone to the player above on ways to 'balance' the ideas, since I know he is against it.

I ask ye, do you begrudge the party those expenses? the countless figurines and battlemats etc?

having to sink 3,000 into a vehicle sucks, but I don't see why that should be your gaming group's problem.

if the DM is driving quite a distance, I can understand helping him out on gas.
if someone at the table consistently brings all the yummies, I can understand helping him ou.
I can understand someone being exempt from certain payments due to their investment. case in point, I have the largest sourcebook collection in my school group, thus, I am exempt from contributing snacks/drinks/etc.
granted, in that group the teachers insist on paying for that anyways, but I digress.

paying to make characters better? not so much.

you say the fund disapeared. I take this to mean someone stole it? I personally would question just how much effort you're sinking into a group if they're willing to steal from you.


I'd personally think a general agreement for upkeep of the game's stuff isn't a bad thing, be it replacing minis, tiles and the like or just deciding "Okay, this week, Rich is bringing the pizza, Steve's bringing the snacks, and Anthony's bringing the crazy... again."

As a DM and a friend, I'd feel weird about charging my friends for stuff. Like at all. (My personal policy is that it's only money and it's all water under the bridge when it comes to friends, but I can understand the economic situation some may be in. I'm far from rich myself.)

agreement.
also, I'm totaly in favor of the responsible party replacing any broken stuff. takes the burden off of you, and also reduces how often things break.

case in point, my players know to be careful with my sourcebooks, because they are expensive, hard to replace, and they will pay for replacements if something happens.



If you want to become a Professional DM, fine. Charge for admission. If you're so worth it, people will pay, right?

But don't completely screw up the game by making money have an impact on your players' in-game success.

amen to this,

the only rewards I've ever offered for out of game stuff would be either things that help me do my job, or things that would have seriously hampered gameplay.


for instance, last night I was attacked by Mothra, I put a 1,000 xp bounty on his head. this was entirely because the game could not continue until the bug was dead.... because the DM is not going to sit there while a moth the size of his ginormic hands is flying around....

he is going to freak out like a wee lil girl until it's smooshed.

I also made a joke about "makin a donation to the 'teej needs a new battle-grid fund" but I was completely joking... at least about donations, by grid is starting to tear.

*additional rewards would include xp for things like: useable backstories, worldbuilding, and good roleplay.



And this is why I'd never pay to play D&D (uh... well, the DM, anyway. I have paid £1 per session for a location before, since we were in a comic book store staying open after hours). I expect to be playing with friends who enjoy the game, regardless of their role in the group. We play because we enjoy it. I shouldn't have to pay for someone to enjoy themselves.




Not only does this sound patronising, but it also sounds like you have held it against him at least long enough to 'forgive him'.


Seriously, though, every group loses dice, breaks miniatures (if they use them), needs books, etc. A lot of people struggle with money. This is not a cheap hobby, and your situation is quite common, yet people still (as a rule) don't ask for money. Asking people for money seems to indicate you're not getting anything out of the situation, which is, of course, wrong. If you want to provide a high quality DM experience, and you feel that that requires tiles and expensive miniatures (which I'd disagree with - why not just use printed out tokens and some sort of gaming mat you can draw on?), that's on your head, and you have to accept that using such things can (and inevitably will) lead to some of them being damaged or lost.

Also, don't forget that unless you have a stupidly high rate of loss of figures, the players bringing £3 worth of snacks to the table each game are quickly going to be regularly spending much more money on the table than you are.

amen, the moment a DM says something along the lines of "okay, so we ran 3 combat encounters today... 1 rp encounter.... and you went shopping in my books, so you're total comes too... x" where x is anything that is not "did y'all have fun tonight?" I'm outa there*


*if I'm playing at a gaming store or a con or something and it's the cost of admission that's (slightly) different.

double amen to playing for enjoyment.
hell, if I didn't enjoy the game, I wouldn't invest in all the materials. and the only time my players have ever heard me complain about the cost of books, is when I'm sad I can't afford a new one!

also, it is indeed an expensive hobby, (though no-where near as bad as warhammer) but I've never asked my players for a dime*

*discounting obvious things like gas money if I drove them somewhere, or compensation if I brought snacks/food that day etc.

and last +3 on the expensive matt and minis comment. if you're the one insisting on using them, that isn't your players' fault. heck, in both of the groups I'm in, I don't provide ANYTHING* except my time as the DM - the adventure, my sourcebooks, etc.
but everything else? provided by the players
battle grid? - provided by me in one group and a player in another. and sometime very soon this will likely be true in both groups.

minis? - one of my groups uses DICE for minis, heck, I INSIST on using dice for the bad guys so I can keep track of who's-who.



*I provide a battle-grid in one group cause I can't stand those tiles...

[Honest Tiefling]

Big Teej has a good idea: People pay for what they break. It is fair and it replaces things that people were careless with. I think this is a much better idea.

I don't think that your car is really your friend's concern, you should be able to pay for the things you buy. DnD does not appear to be your job and I assume you guys do it for fun. If you are not having fun being the DM, you need to address that, not ask for money from your friends.

What I think would be more fair is asking people to bring in snacks. Usually my group excuses the DM from food duty because of the work involved in setting up the campaign.

If you run low on figs, don't sweat it. I've had my sister's chapstick double in as a figure once. Worked just fine for us.

[Psyren]

He's been watching too much Extra Credits and/or he wants to set up a MMORPG and is using you guys as a free testing crowd for the microtransaction aspect.

I'd slap him.

Clearly he hasn't watched Extra Credits at all, because he's selling power - they specifically (and rightfully) say this should not be done.

Max hit dice, rerolls and especially "luck points" are power.

[Shadowknight12]

Clearly he hasn't watched Extra Credits at all, because he's selling power - they specifically (and rightfully) say this should not be done.

Max hit dice, rerolls and especially "luck points" are power.

Good catch. I hadn't actually bothered to read what he was actually selling.

[Amphetryon]

Did anyone else flash back to KoDT with this one?

[Tyndmyr]

Since I believe in taking credit for my ideas, I am the DM in question, and I recently just put 3,000 dollars on my car and have been providing, free of charge countless figurines, tiles, and other items that have been busted, destroyed, or flat out lost over the years. I used to have a donation fund for such things (including snacks and chips) but it when bust a few years back after the entire fund vanished while at a friends house.

As such it is a way to generate income both for the game and a bit for my own personal wallet, I decided why not see how it works. For the record no major bonuses are being given in the game as is, and there are definitive caps on how things work... Good, bad, not really a big deal for me, players have the choice to spend their money how they want, and I only think one player (who is a whopping 8 levels behind the highest level character) is going to take advantage of it.

Furthermore: I've gone to the player above on ways to 'balance' the ideas, since I know he is against it.

Here's the thing...if you're providing a service, you can always ask for compensation. And DMing, etc is a service. I have absolutely no problem with the idea of a person charging for DMing(though I would certainly have a higher expectation of quality from a DM who did so).

I think this particular plan is not ideal, though. Microtransactions are not generally good for games. You don't want to design a game such that you can or should buy your way to winning.

[FMArthur]

So... what happens when you kill a PC that had actual money invested in the character? Do you pull punches and make enemies conspicuously avoid delivering lethal blows until you decide they've gotten their value out of the ingame stuff you sold them? What exactly can you do to make a game happen when you have a player who has bought success in the game? If you don't do that and you have the money-invested PC die in what is effectively a world under your direct control, can you trust your players not to become angry about it?

You'd need to take a lot of martial arts lessons before introducing this to many of the groups I've played with, let me tell you...

[Psyren]

Did anyone else flash back to KoDT with this one?

Flash back to what now?


So... what happens when you kill a PC that had actual money invested in the character? Do you pull punches and make enemies conspicuously avoid delivering lethal blows until you decide they've gotten their value out of the ingame stuff you sold them? What exactly can you do to make a game happen when you have a player who has bought success in the game?

Like any good MMO, you would make resurrection free and painless :smalltongue:

[GuyLoki]

As the defacto DM for my groups (when I manage to play) I have to ask a question...

Is the DM the DM because he is the guy who owns the stuff and is the only person willing to put in the HOURS of work that he has to do outside of the session? Or is he the DM because he wants to be and given the option would be thrilled to jump in and play as a PC for a while?


I know that its often a HUGE chore to be the DM. I get stuck with it because most of the rest of my friends don't know how to do it well and struggle with it and don't enjoy it. I want to play, and that often means I need to be the one who takes on the burden.

If the sole investor in the books, minis (figs), etc is the DM, he has every right to point out to his group "Hey, I'm hurting for money and this isn't cheap". I would think that first give the option to just donate, and then if no one is willing to help throw down to keep the game going... then suggest these microeconomics. I would actually make the prices much lower though. And nothing permanent. The only thing that make me even a bit iffy is the hit die max.

[Tyndmyr]

I passed this along to my group minutes ago with a completely neutral description, aka "hey, look at this post I found on the internets".

Within seconds, they'd all responded. All but one of them said it was the worst idea they'd ever seen. Some of them ranted at length about just how bad it was. Farmville was mentioned repeatedly.

The other dude said he'd be willing to try it tonight. We worry about him.

[FMArthur]

If the sole investor in the books, minis (figs), etc is the DM, he has every right to point out to his group "Hey, I'm hurting for money and this isn't cheap". I would think that first give the option to just donate, and then if no one is willing to help throw down to keep the game going... then suggest these microeconomics. I would actually make the prices much lower though. And nothing permanent. The only thing that make me even a bit iffy is the hit die max.

Or you can literally just ask everyone to pitch in to support it equally, like you already do for pizza. Like with the pizza, if nobody wants to pay for it you don't have to DM and spend money on them. You are charging for the service and expenses, not asking for donations.

You're DMing because you want to DM and participate in the hobby. The time you spend on preparing games is the measurement of your interest in it, but you would only need to let them know it isn't fair that you spend your money on them as well. All you'd have to do is ask them to help you pay for things and do it directly, not in a convoluted manner that introduces other problems that had nothing to do with the original problem.

[Karoht]

Since I believe in taking credit for my ideas, I am the DM in question, and I recently just put 3,000 dollars on my car and have been providing, free of charge countless figurines, tiles, and other items that have been busted, destroyed, or flat out lost over the years. I used to have a donation fund for such things (including snacks and chips) but it when bust a few years back after the entire fund vanished while at a friends house.

As such it is a way to generate income both for the game and a bit for my own personal wallet, I decided why not see how it works. For the record no major bonuses are being given in the game as is, and there are definitive caps on how things work... Good, bad, not really a big deal for me, players have the choice to spend their money how they want, and I only think one player (who is a whopping 8 levels behind the highest level character) is going to take advantage of it.

Furthermore: I've gone to the player above on ways to 'balance' the ideas, since I know he is against it.

I prefered to address this rather than the OP.

In my game group we have a friend who is in a similar position. He's a lower income person to begin with, with a dependant. He provides models and terrain for all kinds of games, and sadly there has been some damage over the years, beyond standard wear and tear. He also pays for food pretty frequently for the group, and offers all the hospitality of his home as though we were family.

To him, I would consider actually paying a bit like this when he runs a game. Consider, mind you. But I'll equate him to you for purposes of this discussion.

I get that your hospitality has been taken advantage of. Hey, for a crit now and again, a buck or two is just a spot of silliness that I might actually participate in from time to time.

If this is a serious idea, then I have a serious suggestion.
Try a session where everyone has a bunch of poker chips. Everyone at the table has equal value of chips, somewhere between 10 and 50 dollars. See what happens in one session. See what happens over the course of the campaign (where the money they start with is the total amount for the whole thing).
I think you will find that this will unbalance your game and then some. Even if just one player does this to compensate for being behind the curve, you will see some imbalances.

But I agree with others, 'buying power' tends to be a bad purchase and a bad sell. Buying success is hollow at best.

Last tip-state cash only up front. Running a debit/credit machine is expensive these days, and cheques are WAAAY too easy to fraud.

[Psyren]

I'm not against microtransactions themselves, but the OP's DM really, really, REALLY needs to watch Extra Credits first. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3689-Microtransactions) He is Doing It Wrong in numerous, easily preventable ways.

[Yahzi]

Since I believe in taking credit for my ideas
World of Warcraft doesn't do this.

What do they know that you don't?

If you want to charge everybody a flat fee for the evening, to cover materials, pizza, snacks, etc., that's fine. And if it happens to leave you with a little change leftover every week, well, if you're putting in the hours to be the DM as well as host, I doubt anybody would object.

But you are not providing a service. You're playing the game from the side of the table you like. If you don't DM for the sheer fun of it, quit now. Otherwise ur doing it wrong. :smallmad:

[Amphetryon]

Flash back to what now?

Knights of the Dinner Table. At one point Brian paid back Bob's actual monetary expenses to him with in-game swag.

[Luckmann]

I'm not against microtransactions themselves, but the OP's DM really, really, REALLY needs to watch Extra Credits first. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3689-Microtransactions) He is Doing It Wrong in numerous, easily preventable ways.
Damn you.

Damn you to hell.

I went in watching that hating the idea of microtransactions and then I came out a lot less angry.

You have stolen a vital part of my personality. :smallannoyed:

[Karoht]

World of Warcraft doesn't do this.You're correct, they don't. They charge for vanity items which do not affect game balance. Mounts and vanity pets.

The equivilant would be for this person to provide a custom model with an awesome paint job for my character mini, and charge money for that. Which I would gladly pay for in the right context.

[Rogue Shadows]

World of Warcraft doesn't do this.

Conversely, D&D Online does...as do many MMOs.

[Psyren]

Damn you.

Damn you to hell.

I went in watching that hating the idea of microtransactions and then I came out a lot less angry.

You have stolen a vital part of my personality. :smallannoyed:

It's natural to hate them, because so many companies are screwing them up. It's just like EA's Project Ten Dollar - an actually brilliant idea that is mired in such bad marketing that very few people can admit they like it, even to themselves.

[The Glyphstone]

This really is an awful idea.

If you're going to persist with it, though - at least, for the love of Pelor, make the 'purchases' persistent, the way D&DO does. That $10 for a maxed Hit Die? It applies to one hit die of every character you make from now on? Those six extra luck points? +6 luck points every time you have to re-roll a character. The re-roll pool? Resets when you die and re-roll.

[Tyndmyr]

It's natural to hate them, because so many companies are screwing them up. It's just like EA's Project Ten Dollar - an actually brilliant idea that is mired in such bad marketing that very few people can admit they like it, even to themselves.

Yup. The idea of micro transactions is an occasionally extremely useful one. But it certainly doesn't work everywhere, in all places. Paying for power 'round the gaming table is certainly not a good use of it.

But the basic idea of sharing the expenses equally with the other players...that's solid. Pursue that. I'd go with flat expense covering fees, if possible, or a less formal tact like "you cover the pizza this week, since I bought a new mat", if that works for your group.

[Divide by Zero]

World of Warcraft doesn't do this.

Vanity pets, server transfers, name/race/etc changes...

However, as far as I'm aware, none of those things boost your character in-game (unless you count the mounts saving you a trivial amount of gold), so it's not quite the same.

Edit: damn ninjas.

[Psyren]

It is not acceptable to sell power.

It is, however, acceptable to sell convenience. So WoW sells you additional accounts - this gives you more storage space, or the ability to have characters beyond the account limit, or the ability to have all professions without needing to keep unlearning and retraining them. WoW sells server transfers and name/appearance changes, letting you modify/relocate your existing characters instead of being forced to roll them up from scratch.

I have no idea how to effectively translate this to a D&D group, however.

[Partysan]

I don't really like the idea. Sure, If you are low on cash and are providing all the things around the table - you know, I'd say "Boys and Girls and all in between and outside the scale, you all know I'm low on cash so I'd like you to bring the snacks/buy or pay the figs/bring the drinks/pay into a general game fund so we can keep this running." But that Microtransaction idea rubs me entirely the wrong way AND will probably not generate much money anyway.
You're better off going at it directly. I don't like the idea that a group of gamer friends would need to be bribed with ingame benefits.

This all doesn't apply of course if you're professionally DMing for strangers just to provide a service, then you can have them pay for whatever you want.

[Karoht]

I don't really like the idea. Sure, If you are low on cash and are providing all the things around the table - you know, I'd say "Boys and Girls and all in between and outside the scale, you all know I'm low on cash so I'd like you to bring the snacks/buy or pay the figs/bring the drinks/pay into a general game fund so we can keep this running." But that Microtransaction idea rubs me entirely the wrong way AND will probably not generate much money anyway.
You're better off going at it directly. I don't like the idea that a group of gamer friends would need to be bribed with ingame benefits.

This all doesn't apply of course if you're professionally DMing for strangers just to provide a service, then you can have them pay for whatever you want.

Ironically, I probably pay more through a subscription model than I would through a micro transaction model.
I throw 20 bucks in the jar every week whether I eat that much or not. If I were to pay al a carte, I'd pay probably closer to 10 bucks a week.

[darksolitaire]

Here's my advice for OP's DM: charge everyone regardless and provide no in-game benefits to no-one. Others have already reasoned for this conclusion better then I ever could.

[Ravens_cry]

Conversely, D&D Online does...as do many MMOs.

Well, it's Free-to-Play, so they have to make money somehow. Gaming is not a right.

[Akal Saris]

Eh, I guess I'm in the minority here, but if my DM was hosting, buying snacks each week, and letting me use his minis, I'd pay $5 for max HPs on my barbarian warlord.

Usually my groups deal with this by informally bringing along a 6-pack of beer or snacks, but I'd be fine with this system so long as its understood that the $5 is really for the nice stuff that the DM is doing for me, with the in-game benefits as a nice side bonus from him. That way I wouldn't feel so bad on days when I forgot to pick up some food on the way, or accidentally snapped off a sword from the mini or whatever.

[137beth]

I have no problem with a DM who charges a fixed rate-per hour, as they do a lot of work (in principle, anyways, actually I would try to find a DM who would work for free). However, I think the possibility that a player with more real-life money than me would have an advantage in the game is a horrible idea. If the DM charges a fixed rate to everyone, we all chip in, and we all get the experience of a fair game. But with microtransactions, the game depends too much on how much money people have.

[Vandicus]

Eh, I guess I'm in the minority here, but if my DM was hosting, buying snacks each week, and letting me use his minis, I'd pay $5 for max HPs on my barbarian warlord.

Usually my groups deal with this by informally bringing along a 6-pack of beer or snacks, but I'd be fine with this system so long as its understood that the $5 is really for the nice stuff that the DM is doing for me, with the in-game benefits as a nice side bonus from him. That way I wouldn't feel so bad on days when I forgot to pick up some food on the way, or accidentally snapped off a sword from the mini or whatever.

How would you feel if one member of your group was substantially wealthier than others, and slapped down 30, 40 dollars a weak to upgrade his character(and as a result outshone everyone else in combat)? I know my D&D group has a wide enough range of wealth levels such that some of my players could and couldn't afford to do so, if they chose to.

[FMArthur]

Eh, I guess I'm in the minority here, but if my DM was hosting, buying snacks each week, and letting me use his minis, I'd pay $5 for max HPs on my barbarian warlord.

Usually my groups deal with this by informally bringing along a 6-pack of beer or snacks, but I'd be fine with this system so long as its understood that the $5 is really for the nice stuff that the DM is doing for me, with the in-game benefits as a nice side bonus from him. That way I wouldn't feel so bad on days when I forgot to pick up some food on the way, or accidentally snapped off a sword from the mini or whatever.

A money-fuelled favoritism system is not nearly the only way to manage such a cost, though. It's solving a problem by introducing a different one; why would a group agree to do that instead of just pitching in directly and honestly for the costs the game incurs?

It's like constructing a huge black obelisk to block sunlight to preserve the shade under a tree a mile away that is dying because it needs a little water.

[Delwugor]

"I'm having financial problems and need some help."
"How much you need? I'll see what I can do."

"I can't afford BWW tonight."
"I'll cover you."

"I need to get the group more minis but am short on cash."
"No problem, here's $20."

"If you give me money I'll give you playing benefits."
"Sorry don't have any bribe money."

[Psyren]

Well, it's Free-to-Play, so they have to make money somehow. Gaming is not a right.

I think he meant that DDO sells power, not merely that they have microtransactions. The former is not a good thing.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'll third the "pay for broken minis" model.

[Cornelius Grim]

Microtransactions are only permissible if they come in the form of food and drinks at the table or sexual favors preferably away from the table.

Do you mind if I quote this into my signature?

Also, Big Teej is right. This can be worked around with reasoning.

And your car is your issue, not your players'. :smallannoyed:

[Ravens_cry]

I'll third the "pay for broken minis" model.
That's just 'take responsibility for ones actions.', I don't think it really comes under 'micro-transactions'. As for snacks, just have the players bring their own. Or, if you go for long gaming sessions, make it potluck so you all can have a real meal. I would rather see this than a pay-to-cheat model.

[ffone]

Regardless of if anything is rushed, I'm not afraid of the criticism posted by the forum. I'll take my blows as well as the next guy and stand by my principles that led me to the decision.


There is no principle here other than 'I WANTS MONEY'.

A dozen better suggestions have been given now, like the group chipping in for expenses.

And if you really feel you're such an awesome DM or that DMing is such a burden that you need to be paid to do it.....well, the obvious way to do that without taking 'bribes' and causing weird game-and-friendship-destroying issues like resentment would be a flat rate. "Hi, I'm DM McAwesome, I charge $X an hour to DM." Sort of like a babysitter.

I'm not saying that's a GOOD idea and won't cost you friends - but it's a vastly BETTER idea than paying for benefits.

Plus, it dovetails better with your woe-is-me-my-poor-car justification, since it's easier to predict how much you'd make per night.

[Psyren]

There is no principle here other than 'I WANTS MONEY'.

A dozen better suggestions have been given now, like the group chipping in for expenses.

And if you really feel you're such an awesome DM or that DMing is such a burden that you need to be paid to do it.....well, the obvious way to do that without taking 'bribes' and causing weird game-and-friendship-destroying issues like resentment would be a flat rate. "Hi, I'm DM McAwesome, I charge $X an hour to DM." Sort of like a babysitter.

I'm not saying that's a GOOD idea and won't cost you friends - but it's a vastly BETTER idea than paying for benefits.

Plus, it dovetails better with your woe-is-me-my-poor-car justification, since it's easier to predict how much you'd make per night.

Basically, this whole post. ffone raises an excellent point regarding the predictability of your income stream too. If your players are doing well, how long before you start getting tempted to make things "just a little harder" so they want those max hit die and rerolls, and you can start making some money off their misfortune? Is that really a road you want to go down?

[Acanous]

I'd be all for party-wide bribes. Things any player can pay for that benefit the entire party.
An example I can think of is like pitching in $1 to up the result on the random loot table by 5. You roll on 3-5 tables already when generating random loot for the party to split, giving a +5 to one of 'em for the cost of a can of pop would be acceptable.

If someone really wants to fork over $20 and maximize one of the tables, well that party's just got a windfall. Of course, they can't gueruntee WHAT the major magic item (Because come on, that's the one they'll pay for) is going to be, or who it will help.
the majority of loot isn't going to be random-rolled anyhow, so this would only come into play once every few weeks.

[Vandicus]

I'd be all for party-wide bribes. Things any player can pay for that benefit the entire party.
An example I can think of is like pitching in $1 to up the result on the random loot table by 5. You roll on 3-5 tables already when generating random loot for the party to split, giving a +5 to one of 'em for the cost of a can of pop would be acceptable.

If someone really wants to fork over $20 and maximize one of the tables, well that party's just got a windfall. Of course, they can't gueruntee WHAT the major magic item (Because come on, that's the one they'll pay for) is going to be, or who it will help.
the majority of loot isn't going to be random-rolled anyhow, so this would only come into play once every few weeks.

That sounds good on paper but as an earlier poster pointed out, there's incentive for the DM to make the game harder to encourage purchases. Of course, if the party becomes too powerful, the campaign can become boring and end prematurely.

[Alaris]

Okay, WOW...venemous responses left and right. Not cool. Looking for CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM at this point, not people saying "Hey, you, jackass, this is a bad idea. Quit DMing, you ****ing suck."

Like I said, this can work a thousand different ways. The car isn't the players problem. But the minis, and other D&D-related stuff is.

The fund was stolen by someone outside of the group last time, and we haven't restarted it, because it wasn't SUPER-SUCCESSFUL last time.

It's obvious some people would be interested in paying for luck points, or extra rerolls, and I believe that can be legitimate. It's not something gamebreaking. As long as you apply the rule that I think should be applied.

-The luck points or rerolls gained this way CANNOT be used against other plays in any manner.

Regardless, while I would not buy from the system myself, I believe it can be made to help repairing figs, and help the DM a little bit on the side, and I'm not opposed to that anymore, because I understand. It's up to others to express their own opinions, however.

[Trinoya]

And if you really feel you're such an awesome DM or that DMing is such a burden that you need to be paid to do it

I have never made the claim that I am A) Awesome, or B) Needed to be paid to run D&D. Indeed the latter is invalidated simply because the entire concept was purely optional.

Please try to stay accurate at least when flinging stones.

[Claudius Maximus]

Looking for CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM at this point, not people saying "Hey, you, jackass, this is a bad idea. Quit DMing, you ****ing suck."

Good for you then, since nobody's saying that.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

That's just 'take responsibility for ones actions.', I don't think it really comes under 'micro-transactions'. As for snacks, just have the players bring their own. Or, if you go for long gaming sessions, make it potluck so you all can have a real meal. I would rather see this than a pay-to-cheat model.Whatever you want to call it, it's still a monetary scheme that you can opt to use or not use. I think we both agree on the main points.

[Maxios]

...and people say I'm greedy :smalleek: Next time I DM for D&D, I am totally going to have microtransactions

[Alaris]

Good for you then, since nobody's saying that.

Well, perhaps not word for word, but people are being fairly venemous in that respect, saying he should quit or that he's a terrible DM because he was going through this idea.

I stand by my statement, as one of his players, that he is a good DM, and by no means should quit over this. I believe the idea can be altered to work without unbalancing or ruining the game. My opinion.

[Shadowknight12]

Okay, WOW...venemous responses left and right.

V-v-venomousssssss... sssssssss... sssssssssssssss...

...

...

...

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

[Trinoya]

That's simply uncalled for Shadow Knight.. now you've hurt my feelings.


Anti-Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenooooooooooom ....

[Shadowknight12]

That's simply uncalled for Shadow Knight.. now you've hurt my feelings.


Anti-Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenooooooooooom ....

ACK! NO! NOT THE ANTI-VENOM!

...

In all seriousness, the responses here haven't been that bad. :smalltongue:

[Trinoya]

That's what happens when you mess with...


The Collector. (For the record, my players will all groan now).

[Alaris]

*Groan*

Perhaps I was too hasty in giving my praise...

[Trinoya]

I said I wasn't mad at you, not that you wouldn't pay up the ass with every bad pun I can think of. That's just the cost of playing the game.

[Ravens_cry]

Whatever you want to call it, it's still a monetary scheme that you can opt to use or not use. I think we both agree on the main points.
If you break someone else's stuff, you pay for its replacement. Its a courtesy that should be common. It has nothing to do with paying the DM.
@Alaris: Maybe you are reading more into it than is being said. I admit that people on the internet have a tendency to show less courtesy when giving opinion, but many of us really don't like the idea. We sympathise with your financial situation. But if it is becoming more than you feel your budget can bear, maybe instead of charging people, start cutting down. It's not the DM's job to provide snacks in my opinion, and if you are finding players are breaking your miniatures in the process play, one solution is to ask them to bring their own from then on. If you truly are the excellent DM others have said then you should still keep your players even under such circumstances.

[Psyren]

I'm still concerned about the loomig agency problem. Under this system, a harder game means more revenue for the DM.

Yeah it would be nice if we could all rely on the honor system to be ethical, but the best way to preserve friendships is to prevent such ethical dilemmas in the first place.

[big teej]

if you've spent more than 40 dollars on minis on replacing minis. start doing what I do.

don't use minis

use other things..

for instance, for baddies, I have a gallon bags worth of d6s.... unfortunately I only have 5 colors.

but that gives me 30 baddies... and lets face it, most combats are not that big.

[Divide by Zero]

LEGOs are great for that. Cheap, and easily distinguishable.

[Ravens_cry]

Cardpaper cutouts in plastic discs are another cheap way and can also do larger monsters.

[Psyren]

Cardpaper cutouts in plastic discs are another cheap way and can also do larger monsters.

Was going to suggest this. You can even use counters, poker chips etc and just wrap the pictures around them.

[Ravens_cry]

Was going to suggest this. You can even use counters, poker chips etc and just wrap the pictures around them.
Yep. An idea I had was basically a weighted cardpaper tent with the creature printed or drawn on it, with tabs folding toward the inside.

[ko_sct]

That sounds good on paper but as an earlier poster pointed out, there's incentive for the DM to make the game harder to encourage purchases. Of course, if the party becomes too powerful, the campaign can become boring and end prematurely.

I wanted to point out that, even if the DM doesn't make it harder to get more money, he will still make the game harder to null out those bonus.

Supposer your game has the perfect level of challenge for the player and the players still decide to pay you for some little bonus. The game is no easier and probably a little bit less fun (assuming you started whit perfect level of challenge like I said). What's the solution ? Well, make the challenges a little bit harder.

What have we done here ? Nothing, simply gave the DM some money, didn't improve the game. Could have simply asked to pool money for the mini.

Also, I buy-ed a bunch of mini something like 4-5 years ago for 10$. We simply use those, they are pretty random and there's never a mini who perfectly represent what we need but it doesn't really matter. (also, random objects for really big monsters)

[big teej]

(also, random objects for really big monsters)

case in point, last night a player summoned a huge centipede, we used a lego container lid and a anti-cheat sized die.

[Maphreal]

I usually don't mind providing small things for my players. When I want them to chip in for stuff, I simply tell them that people have to chip in or we won't be getting it. You don't need minis or anything for D&D. When I was in middle school and broke, I wrote my characters down on notepads. If we needed a battle mat with miniatures, we busted out the graph paper and pencils.

So in summary, they either pitch in or don't get all the nifty but ultimately unneeded stuff.

[Acanous]

Honestly I don't think anything rolled on the random loot table would be game-breaking. If they rolled it without a couple bucks in bribes, they could still have the exact same thing.

buying a reroll is kinda the same deal. You don't have any bigger a bonus, you just have another shot at it, with the same bonus. Could even roll lower the second time.

[slaydemons]

some of the things I have read makes me wish I had close friends like you guys/girls this is what happened at my group

"hey if you guys see any adventure modules that look like you would have fun with buy it and maybe I could foresee running it."
a week later
"hey I am at the store seeing a couple in my hand this one looks good will you pay me back for it."
I knew he was having financial trouble so I said no problem I paid him the money then he said item came in, costing 500+ dollars If I face palmed at any time it would be then. you guys are just like,
"if you need help with buying things I can help out."
from some of the posts I have read not all of them

also I agree with people not liking this microtransaction. selling power = bad.

Edit: pointless foreword is pointless

[big teej]

some of the things I have read makes me wish I had close friends like you guys/girls this is what happened at my group

"hey if you guys see any adventure modules that look like you would have fun with buy it and maybe I could foresee running it."
a week later
"hey I am at the store seeing a couple in my hand this one looks good will you pay me back for it."
I knew he was having financial trouble so I said no problem I paid him the money then he said item came in, costing 500+ dollars If I face palmed at any time it would be then. you guys are just like,
"if you need help with buying things I can help out."
from some of the posts I have read not all of them

also I agree with people not liking this microtransaction. selling power = bad.

Edit: pointless foreword is pointless

I'll be honest, a good chunk of my collection was purchased on my behalf by the players, (I pay em back, but still, they're doing most of the legwork)

[slaydemons]

I'll be honest, a good chunk of my collection was purchased on my behalf by the players, (I pay em back, but still, they're doing most of the legwork)

its the opposite with me I put all the money in it, I had to pretty much demand they buy their own dice.

[big teej]

its the opposite with me I put all the money in it, I had to pretty much demand they buy their own dice.

haha, I insisted from day one that I was not going to provide anyone (except myself) with dice.

but I have alotta dice superstitions

[Ormur]

Form a union for collective bargaining with the DM if this actually happens.

[slaydemons]

haha, I insisted from day one that I was not going to provide anyone (except myself) with dice.

but I have alotta dice superstitions

even sadder because I knew one wasn't going to I had extra money so I bought him a set of pink dice I bought four sets then gave them to people who don't play D&D often or at all just think they would like the odd dice.

[big teej]

even sadder because I knew one wasn't going to I had extra money so I bought him a set of pink dice I bought four sets then gave them to people who don't play D&D often or at all just think they would like the odd dice.

another fun fact
I have 2 pepto-bismal pink d20s

they're working on earning the nickname "critfinders" as they seem to consistently roll the most 20s.

[slaydemons]

another fun fact
I have 2 pepto-bismal pink d20s

they're working on earning the nickname "critfinders" as they seem to consistently roll the most 20s.

fun fact my friend now has 5 pepto-bismal pink dice which he will never use and are actually mis-numbered like most of my dice I got from that place.
Still I like your rule if you spend the most money on books you don't need to spend five bucks on pizza bro I would be quite happy if I could do that.

[Narren]

"hey if you guys see any adventure modules that look like you would have fun with buy it and maybe I could foresee running it."
a week later
"hey I am at the store seeing a couple in my hand this one looks good will you pay me back for it."
I knew he was having financial trouble so I said no problem I paid him the money then he said item came in, costing 500+ dollars If I face palmed at any time it would be then.

The adventure module cost $500? Surely I'm misreading something.

[slaydemons]

The adventure module cost $500? Surely I'm misreading something.

no he bought an item after saying he was having financial trouble costing 500$

[Karoht]

Form a union for collective bargaining with the DM if this actually happens.Seconded.

Of course, if they stage a lockout as well, that could move talks along quickly.

But seriously, stop short of picket lines and flipping busses and rioting. That just hurts your cause.

[Yorae]

What I want to know is how this gets roleplayed? Do divine gifts just fall out of the air or something (if material, of course)? Are the effects blessings of some deity? (If so, would an Ur-Priest be unable to pay for the benefits? =p)

If materials need to be covered, split the cost amongst the group, making clear that it is necessary for the game to continue. Extorting cash from people who are presumably your friends is not the way to do things.

If I had an unscrupulous DM who seriously tried to implement something as ludicrously presumptuous as microtransactions, I'd start looking for a new campaign immediately. The relation between a DM and his/her players isn't a business relationship, it is a personal one. This isn't something friends do to friends.

[shadow_archmagi]

If materials need to be covered, split the cost amongst the group, making clear that it is necessary for the game to continue. Extorting cash from people who are presumably your friends is not the way to do things.


Yeah. If I had no money, but wanted to DM, I'd say "Hey guys, I have no money. You'll need to buy the figurines for the games."

Actually, come to think of it, I think they only time I bought anything for D&D was when I bought dice, and I try not to share my dice. Most of the books were bought by individuals who were interested in them, and for whatever individual materials I needed I used the internet (Crystalkeep, SRD, etc.)

D&D is an amusing passtime. I might implement the "Gimme a dollar, I'll let you re-roll it" but only as a hilarious social experiment amongst people I didn't expect to associate with in the long run.

[Yorae]

Yeah. If I had no money, but wanted to DM, I'd say "Hey guys, I have no money. You'll need to buy the figurines for the games."

Actually, come to think of it, I think they only time I bought anything for D&D was when I bought dice, and I try not to share my dice. Most of the books were bought by individuals who were interested in them, and for whatever individual materials I needed I used the internet (Crystalkeep, SRD, etc.)

D&D is an amusing passtime. I might implement the "Gimme a dollar, I'll let you re-roll it" but only as a hilarious social experiment amongst people I didn't expect to associate with in the long run.

Make it a mandatory houserule:

"Whenever a player roles a natural 1 on a saving throw, he or she owes the DM $1." :smalltongue:

[Allanimal]

This was a few years ago, before they all got cars so we would meet at the "local" library (local for them, not me)...but it was about six miles, it was largely uphill, and yes, I would do it in the snow.

we meet at my house for that reason: they have cars, I don't. Plus it helps I have a big room and a big table (with smaller, auxiliary tables, as needed)

I think paying real money for stuff is not a great way to do it. There are alternatives to minis... The mostly otherwise worthless toys from Kinder Überaschungseier show up on our table, as well as other random objects from around the house to augment a lack of minis or other game materials. My wife even made a Ziaggarut out of paper mache and old cereal boxes for one session.

We rotate dinner cooking duties every session. The DM is exempt and the host only cooks half as often as the others. I think it is a great system.

[Karoht]

Make it a mandatory houserule:

"Whenever a player roles a natural 1 on a saving throw, he or she owes the DM $1." :smalltongue:
Easier houserule that doesn't relate to the game but serves essentially the same purpose.
Have a swear jar.

[shadow_archmagi]

Easier houserule that doesn't relate to the game but serves essentially the same purpose.
Have a swear jar.

Ingenius! This method is much less likely to cause the players to hate the DM, but you still get 1$ every time someone rolls a 1

[Amphetryon]

Ingenius! This method is much less likely to cause the players to hate the DM, but you still get 1$ every time someone rolls a 1

Not to mention every time the DM rolls a crit, every time the players miss the presumptive DC or AC by only 1. . . .

[shadow_archmagi]

Not to mention every time the DM rolls a crit, every time the players miss the presumptive DC or AC by only 1. . . .

And if you're really short on funds, you can just kick someone under the table.

[Shadowknight12]

And if you're really short on funds, you can just kick someone under the table.

Or splash them with ice-cold water. Or sneak up behind them and scare the everloving... crap out of them. :smallwink:

[Karoht]

Wow. We just found a place for microtransactions to occur in a DnD setting, and make sense, and even be paid by the players. Brilliant!


So, lesson for you DM's out there. If you are low on funds, and you need some money, and the only place you can get it is from your players, and they won't pay it normally for things like models and snacks etc.
Institute a swear jar.

[Tyndmyr]

There is no principle here other than 'I WANTS MONEY'.

A dozen better suggestions have been given now, like the group chipping in for expenses.

And if you really feel you're such an awesome DM or that DMing is such a burden that you need to be paid to do it.....well, the obvious way to do that without taking 'bribes' and causing weird game-and-friendship-destroying issues like resentment would be a flat rate. "Hi, I'm DM McAwesome, I charge $X an hour to DM." Sort of like a babysitter.

I'm not saying that's a GOOD idea and won't cost you friends - but it's a vastly BETTER idea than paying for benefits.

Plus, it dovetails better with your woe-is-me-my-poor-car justification, since it's easier to predict how much you'd make per night.

Honestly, I'd have no problem paying a DM by the hour, if he were sufficiently awesome. That ideas been brought up by multiple DMs here...and usually plenty of us say go for it, provided you are in fact better than available free DMs in the area. I have no qualms with the idea of DM as job. After all, people frequently pay experts in other forms of entertainment to guide or accompany them.

I have no trouble with roleplaying being a business arrangement...but if it's going to be, it has to be one that makes sense. And microtransactions really don't.


Honestly I don't think anything rolled on the random loot table would be game-breaking. If they rolled it without a couple bucks in bribes, they could still have the exact same thing.

buying a reroll is kinda the same deal. You don't have any bigger a bonus, you just have another shot at it, with the same bonus. Could even roll lower the second time.

There are feats that exist solely to provide rerolls. Some of these are even quite good. Consider, the willingness to pay a $1 for a reroll can entirely replace Lucky Start, an excellent luck feat that will, 1/day, allow you to reroll an init roll. In fact, the cash option is still better, since you could opt to use the reroll on something else if you were doing good on init rolls.

A swear jar would be ignored by my players. Ignored with EXTREME prejudice.

[opticalshadow]

micro transactiosn for dnd is a pretty stale idea. and i think its terrible at every level of the game.


open your donate box back up, if someone breaks something they pay for it or they are out. let the party know you could use some cash but for dnd.

telling me you have car problems is a terrible idea. unless that car is strictly for going to dnd games thats a real life problem not a dnd one, and using dnd in anyway to pad that is wrong. if your tired of people losing figureines ar dice and they wont pay then start using folded peices of paper as enemies until they provide their own or pay up for what been broken. id walk out of any of my games if a dm offered a buy of power, or id roll a wizard and break the game into peices, because in my book when you offer an abstract way of effecting the game outside of the game, then theres no reason i cant do what ever i want in game.

[Karoht]

A swear jar would be ignored by my players. Ignored with EXTREME prejudice.Even if it were a house rule in a house with small children?
(I'm kidding)

[Kuma Da]

Okay. Opened up the thread. Read page one. Thought "this is silly. They'll have this figured out by next page." Opened up to page four. Nope. Debate still going.

Here's my two cents: Gaming is relaxing. It's fun, engaging, and done between (comparative) equals. Charging for elements of the game, even for the best possible reasons, is a sacrifice of some of that equality. Not all of it, necessarily, but some.

To be perfectly honest, I sympathize with the DM. I could be much, much better off financially, and it's good to try and make money from what you know and like. This raises the question: is your game purely for enjoyment, or are you Providing A Service?

If it's the latter, then by all means charge. You're doing something no one else wants to do for less, and doing it at a decent level of competence. Your game can be extremely fun for you and your players, but at the end of the day profit is a factor.

If, however, you're running a game because it's fun, or some of the other players like DMing too, or you just want to relax with some friends and maybe not have to worry about money at the gaming table as well as everywhere else, don't do it. Ask that your players contribute by bringing snacks. Or institute a tip jar, with the explicit understanding that it in no way can influence the game. Or say that you've lost way too many minis to your players, and that you can't afford to keep them as a part of your games. If you've got good players, they'll pick up on all of these cues and try to help you out. If you've got bad players, or ones that you don't particularly care about, then why are you running a game for them in the first place?

Just some stuff to think over.

edit: also, Trin, if my entire anything fund vanished while I was at a player's house, the whole group and I would be having a sit down to talk about how much it sucked that all our cash money for snacks went missing, and how that would mean no snacking in the forseeable future. I trust the players to be their own detectives, and snacks are a powerful incentive to get them on the trail of whoever (probably) stole your petty cash.

[Tyndmyr]

Okay. Opened up the thread. Read page one. Thought "this is silly. They'll have this figured out by next page." Opened up to page four. Nope. Debate still going..

Honestly, I lolled pretty hard when I saw the title. I thought it was the best joke ever. Now, I'm just praying that it all turns out to be a troll, though I'm afraid it feels a bit too real for that.

[Kuma Da]

Honestly, I lolled pretty hard when I saw the title. I thought it was the best joke ever. Now, I'm just praying that it all turns out to be a troll, though I'm afraid it feels a bit too real for that.

It reminds me a lot of that pay-for-DMing thing from a while back. I can't really forsee it doing anything other than giving money another way to intrude on people's lives, but I could be wrong.

[Karoht]

Well, to reassure, I will point out that the perlative majority are against the monetization of the game, though there are a few giving it some serious (and unserious) thought from time to time.

And yeah, jerkwad players are just that. If someone steals from you, they aren't your friends, they shouldn't be at your table or you shouldn't be at theirs.

(Thats a general 'you' BTW)

[noparlpf]

People should pay for anything they break or lose that isn't theirs. I feel that there shouldn't be in-game effects of real-world goings-on.
If the fund is going towards things like new mats or a new set of minis (admittedly they do wear out over time, through no fault of the players or DM), then you should just get the group together and ask everyone to chip in ten bucks (or whatever currency you use locally). If it's for snacks, then get the group together and set up a system; for example, each person gets a turn to buy snacks.
What my group does, instead of figures, is use d12s. Then at least they get some use. There are maybe three things in 3.5 that use d12s...greataxe, barbarian or dragon's hit die (not used in-game), and I believe I found a spell that used d12s. So we figured, hey, why not put them to some use? (When using the facing rules from UA, we just got some pieces of tape to mark front and back.)

[Yorae]

People should pay for anything they break or lose that isn't theirs. I feel that there shouldn't be in-game effects of real-world goings-on.
If the fund is going towards things like new mats or a new set of minis (admittedly they do wear out over time, through no fault of the players or DM), then you should just get the group together and ask everyone to chip in ten bucks (or whatever currency you use locally). If it's for snacks, then get the group together and set up a system; for example, each person gets a turn to buy snacks.
What my group does, instead of figures, is use d12s. Then at least they get some use. There are maybe three things in 3.5 that use d12s...greataxe, barbarian or dragon's hit die (not used in-game), and I believe I found a spell that used d12s. So we figured, hey, why not put them to some use? (When using the facing rules from UA, we just got some pieces of tape to mark front and back.)

Undead Hit Dice too, for all that it comes up.

[Trinoya]

In the interests of some measure of thread control (namely attempting to have it stop spilling over into my PM box on OTHER boards) I figured I'd update people in regards to the status of the idea.

Originally this was intended to be a controlled experiment in a small test group, with input slowly building onto the idea as it evolves over time. Unfortunately that is no longer possible and I've had several players discuss the subject matter with me.

To that end, the idea has come to a halt. Clear strong opinions were presented, some to both sides of the argument, but in the end it clearly wouldn't be feasible. I've only cared enough for the idea to present the options, not to fight the battle for it, as it was a battle I never intended to fight in the first place and I am long past my "bashing the head on the internet or against my players" days, simply put I don't think anyone is particularly wrong in the view on the subject matter.

I digress: after discussing at length with one player, and viewing the total reactions of those who have been witness to the post (both players and non players alike, as well as a larger circle of my friends) I have determined it simply would not be functional for party harmony, which is far more critical to me than any level of money shall ever be.


Of course, perhaps the swear jar will be a better financial option. :haley:


Trin Out.

[Karoht]

Originally this was intended to be a controlled experiment in a small test group, with input slowly building onto the idea as it evolves over time. Unfortunately that is no longer possible and I've had several players discuss the subject matter with me.

Of course, perhaps the swear jar will be a better financial option. :haley:


Trin Out.

As far as the experimental nature is concerned, this is why I recommended using poker chips the first night you try it, where everyone has an identical dollar amount. Just see how much this alters the game for you.

Swear jar really was just a joke. I swear.