McGuyvering: the Annoyance

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I suppose I should probably try to define 'McGuyvering' first, perhaps then my complaint will be self evident.

We all remember McGuyver... he would come up with a way to Bounce a Graviton Particle Beam off the Main Deflector Dish and win the day with perfectly ordinary stuff which was conveniently left around for him to use.

A player who McGuyvers is one who deliberately brings these things with him in order to circumvent, bypass, or otherwise trivialize encounters by using non-standard tactics that generally involves applying real-world physics into D&D.

This is similar in concept to the spoilered image here:http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/12936417/images/1290769666645.jpg

Yea... it's kind of like that. Or attempting to kill a room full of orcs by throwing in a torch, sealing the door with an airtight seal, and making them asphyxiate. Or attempting to obtain large quantities of [move along, citizen] so as to manufacture thermite. Or trying to create a lens which will focus the sun's rays into a laser which will melt the offending castle wall.

In other words, bringing in knowledge of physics and chemistry into a D&D setting.

So, let's hear your stories about how your players tried to McGuyver, and what you did about it. Do you just swing the 'lulz no' bat, do you declare that 'your character has never heard of that, no way', or do you let them try to pull it off?

[Eldan]

Pssh.

It's simple. D&D doesn't have real world physics, when I'm running it.

Atoms? Sure. Fire, Water, Earth or Air atoms? Ah.

No, fire doesn't use up oxygen, silly. It uses up Phlogiston. Which has negative mass.

Gravity? It's a word to describe the love of earth elementals and earth atoms to be united with others of their kind.

Diseases? Caused by tiny demons, which are attracted to Bad Air (mala aria). Vitriol can cure scurvy, while quicksilver cures the elven pox and bleeding heals fevers.

And so on. And that arrow, by the way? That doesn't defeat anyone. It just moves them to the Astral Plane. If they aren't killed by Githyanki, they should be fine.

Generally, it doesn't make much of a difference. The physics are superficially the same. Dropping things on someone or asphyxiating them is absolutely fine. That falls undercreative planning and is rewarded. Abusing relativity, or building a perpetuum mobile, though? Doesn't work.

[Serpentine]

I am... not understanding what your problem is with this :smallconfused: I would love it if my party did more of this! It'd be great!

I guess it was a bit annoying this one time they did it... We had previously come across a bunch of mushrooms which, when disturbed, spray a creature with spores which hurl it waaaaaaay up in the air, usually resulting in the death of the creature - and extra nutrients for the mushrooms - when it eventually lands again. It was a handy way to get up very high. One of the characters harvested a heap of the spores and took it with us.
Later, the party was held up by a bunch of bandits. One of the characters took the whole bag of spores and threw it at the leader, throwing him way up in the air and almost killing him in one action. He had a name, he was meant to come back again! D: But meh, it was clever, and they deserved their success.

[Eldan]

Ah, yes. I should have clarified.

There are two parts to this. One is creative planning. Trying to asphyxiate someone is fine. Creating explosives (one of my players tried boiling urine to make white phosphorus once) would require Craft: Alchemy, at the very least, and probably be quite hard, but possible.

On the other hand, trying to argue that the commoner railgun works, or that teleport would be deadly due to momentum and the rotation of the Earth, or trying to Major Create antimatter? That's shut down.

[GodGoblin]

On the other hand, trying to argue that the commoner railgun works, or that teleport would be deadly due to momentum and the rotation of the Earth, or trying to Major Create antimatter? That's shut down.

But luckily that isnt McGuyvering, McGuyvering isnt about applying real world physics sure sometimes you need them to make a plan work but its more to do with finding string and a potato to make bolas or alchemists fire with a handfull of nails etc. Commoner railgun is something different entirely, and veeeery annoying to deal with as a DM, the rest though is great fun!

[kharmakazy]

So your thread title is completely incorrect?

McGuyvering is coming up with clever solutions to problems. That is usually a good thing unless you are a terrible DM.

What you are describing is people wanting to invent their own rules without the DMs permission. It's a game. You can't try and apply inflation to monopoly just because it exists IRL.

[tcrudisi]

Or attempting to kill a room full of orcs by throwing in a torch, sealing the door with an airtight seal, and making them asphyxiate.

If my players did this, I would smack them (not literally). It's just so silly and pointless. Why would you waste a perfectly good torch? Just close the airtight door and let them asphyxiate. They'll eventually breathe all the oxygen out on their own without having to throw a torch in there.

[kharmakazy]

plus.. wouldn't the orcs just put the torch out? Or bust down the door?

[Killer Angel]

McGuyvering is coming up with clever solutions to problems. That is usually a good thing unless you are a terrible DM.


Yep, McGuyver finds smart solutions on the run, using what’s at hand, which is good.
The problem is when a so-smart player, starts programming broken things using the player’s knowledge of real world (wanting to create anti-iridium or anti-osmium for density, and so on).

[Ardent]

I personally would love if my group would do more of this, Hell, if they knew how and their character had the proper materials and an excuse to know or guess this information (My settings usually have a lot of dead civilisations that used relatively modern technology there are ruins in remote places, so it wouldn't be that hard), I'd let them build any real technology.

Computers? Guns? Cars? Planes?
If they had the means, all of it.
And that bag of holding gun I find funny and awesome, though perhaps after a player uses it the price of bags of holding suddenly goes up...

[kharmakazy]

The arrow only sends people to the astral plane.... if it works. By the time you can afford one of them the enemies will just come right back.

[Eurus]

Creating thermite/bombs/asphyxiating death chambers can be irritating if you're not expecting it, I know quite well. Hours of dungeon designing, made irrelevant in minutes. But after people pull this once or twice, you should expect it. Sealing the door airtight? You're underground, not having other air shafts would be ridiculous. Using those air vents to flood the dungeon? Adequate drainage deals with literal floods, and the denizens retreating behind doors can greatly reduce the range of Cloudkill and the like. Packing a wagon with IEDs made from flour crates and alchemist's fire and rolling it down a hill into the military camp? Nice opening salvo, but unlikely to finish the job by itself and any reasonable force will take precautions to make sure they don't fall for it twice.

Now that is not to say that you should simply veto creative solutions. Of course not. Just don't make it too easy. Change things up, force players to come up with new solutions and not just spam the same ones. And if people are having fun, it's a win.

[Ardent]

They'd come right back? I would've thought they'd require a portal or something.

[Eurus]

They'd come right back? I would've thought they'd require a portal or something.

Me too, Plane Shift doesn't bring you exactly where you want to go unless you follow it with a Teleport or something -- which is unwise since your enemies have had at least two turns to prepare/recover. More likely, if whoever you sent off was dangerous enough to actually be worth throwing that much gold at, they'd come back later and better-prepared. Still, it's a decent escape button if you want to postpone a fight for a later day.

[Jack_Simth]

This is similar in concept to the spoilered image here:http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/12936417/images/1290769666645.jpg

Considering the weight of your stock Bag of Holding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding) (the lightest being 15 lbs), this is going to be one hard arrow to use. Even if you use a Handy Haversack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#handyHaversack) instead, it's still five pounds. And if you get anything even slightly off, there's a pretty fair chance the initial acceleration from firing it would set off the pin anyway (AKA, give me a Craft(Gnomishly-complex devices) check, DC "not possible for you" or fall into your own effect).

[SgtCarnage92]

I had a player that devised how, through a series of psionic powers, to create an atomic bomb. I would never actually allow it as a DM for a plethora of reasons. As frustrating as it can be to have your players out-think you, it shouldn't be punished. My favorite example of this was I was running an encounter involving werewolves and the party happened to have a Centaur Barbarian.

First off, they're doing battle with the wolves in the dining room of a mansion, our centaur sees the wolf hiding under the table and decides to leap onto the table and crush the wolf. The table is ruined and broken. The wolves are going to be coming back. So, the players all decide to take the remaining parts of the table, create a double barricade in a room near to the dining room, And wait out the night. Even going as far as making sure that the sharp parts of the wooden table were sticking outwards (and covered by a cloak or whatnot) so if something tried to charge through, it would be impaled. I had not planned for that eventuality, but I allowed it because it made sense for their characters to do so. It forced me to out think them. I was simultaneously proud and frustrated with them. :smallbiggrin:

[Tengu_temp]

"Does your character have knowledge of modern physics and chemistry? No? Thought so."

As for commoner railgun:
"You can't selectively choose that some things work like in real life, and some work by the RAW, in order to pull off a questionable thing. That's not being smart, that's badly trying to be a rules lawyer."

Now, when players show actual ingenuity, that's okay. But there's clear difference between that and rules abuse.

[GodGoblin]

They'd come right back? I would've thought they'd require a portal or something.

They would require a spell or something but by the level you can shoot multiple magic items at people those people will probably have said spells.

[Ravens_cry]

"Does your character have knowledge of modern physics and chemistry? No? Thought so."

"I took ranks every level in Knowledge:Physics and Knowledge: Chemistry."

As for commoner railgun:
"You can't selectively choose that some things work like in real life, and some work by the RAW, in order to pull off a questionable thing. That's not being smart, that's badly trying to be a rules lawyer.
I agree there. It's what I call, even if it worked, abusing the rules as rules.
And, as you say, it is not consistent, because it switches between real-world rules and D&D rules, it isn't just one or the other.
Shrinking a patch of lava, permanently, and wearing it as a cloak on the other hand, only to throw it down as a last resort, now that's a bit more clever.

[Eldan]

"I took ranks every level in Knowledge:Physics and Knowledge: Chemistry."


"Your character therefore knows he lives in a world where living creatures live off "positive energy" and there are four elements that are channeled in from outside the universe through the Aether. He knows that gravity is very different from our world, as is momentum. Would you like to proceed with trying to create explosives?"

[Ravens_cry]

"Your character therefore knows he lives in a world where living creatures live off "positive energy" and there are four elements that are channeled in from outside the universe through the Aether. He knows that gravity is very different from our world, as is momentum. Would you like to proceed with trying to create explosives?"
"Yes, he/she know they would be a boon to miners and tunnellers and would be far too terrible a weapon to ever be used in war."

[hewhosaysfish]

Shrinking a patch of lava, permanently, and wearing it as a cloak on the other hand, only to throw it down as a last resort, now that's a bit more clever.

:smalleek:
No, it's really not. Wandering around with lava on your backs for weeks/months/years is not clever.
If you deciding to use it only "as a last resort", then it's far more likely that it will get dispelled or anti-magiced before you get around to using it; it's like wearing a jug of nitro-glycerin as a hat.

Remember dorfs: magma does not play favourites!

[Eldan]

That reminds me of the third party magma rules.

[GodGoblin]

That reminds me of the third party magma rules.

This is relevant to my interests...

[Bob the DM]

Just ask the question: Do you have knowledge: Physics? Chemistry? Biology? If they do and make the appropriate DC check, let them have a bonus to what they're trying. A giant lens is silly, but improved alchemists' fire? Sure, now make an alchemy check and there's your bonus damage. Or there's your special aalchemists fire that doesn't do half damage to objects. If you're willing to put many skill points into it, it's no longer "real world physics". Just communicate with your players. Ask, what does what your trying to make do? Then assign a dc, a cost and try to base it off something that's already in the game.

[Malimar]

Isn't it "MacGyver"?

[Amnestic]

:smalleek:
No, it's really not. Wandering around with lava on your backs for weeks/months/years is not clever.
If you deciding to use it only "as a last resort", then it's far more likely that it will get dispelled or anti-magiced before you get around to using it; it's like wearing a jug of nitro-glycerin as a hat.

Remember dorfs: magma does not play favourites!

Doesn't one point of Fire Resistance make you immune to lava? Becomes decidedly less risky with that in mind :P

[only1doug]

This is relevant to my interests...

They were quite complex

If you fall in Magma you die
Unless you are totally immune to fire damage, then you only have to worry about drowning

[GodGoblin]

One point of fire resistance would remove one point of damage from lava, not make you immune. Doesnt it do something like 20d6 every round?

[Eldan]

Third party rules. These here, to be specific. (http://www.lavarules.com/) They are quite a bit better than the WotC ones, I think.

[Jack_Simth]

One point of fire resistance would remove one point of damage from lava, not make you immune. Doesnt it do something like 20d6 every round?
Yes and No (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#lavaEffects):
An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma. However, a creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava. (emphasis added)

It's stupid, but yes, exactly as written, a single point of fire resistance makes you immune to lava or magma.

[GodGoblin]

Wow I just double checked the Wizards rules, blimey they suck. Fire and Brimstone however make an interesting point :smallbiggrin:

Edit- Ah wait damn, I think the Fire and Brimstone rules are for 4th edition, anyone found a 3.5 conversion? :smalltongue:

[Amnestic]

One point of fire resistance would remove one point of damage from lava, not make you immune. Doesnt it do something like 20d6 every round?


An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma. However, a creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava.

Strictly RAW, Fire Resistance 1 serves as immunity to lava or magma.

Edit: Swordsage'd ;<

[GodGoblin]

I would personally rule it that you die unless you have complete fire immunity then it counts as drowning.

[Ravens_cry]

:smalleek:
No, it's really not. Wandering around with lava on your backs for weeks/months/years is not clever.
If you deciding to use it only "as a last resort", then it's far more likely that it will get dispelled or anti-magiced before you get around to using it; it's like wearing a jug of nitro-glycerin as a hat.

Remember dorfs: magma does not play favourites!
Ah, but place it between two layers of cloth and you block line of sight and line of effect. Now that's a Holocaust Cloak (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093779/quotes)!
Add a Magic Aura to make it so it comes across as just a cloak.

[CTrees]

I would personally rule it that you die unless you have complete fire immunity then it counts as drowning.

Just FYI, lava/magma is very, very dense. Drowning by, say, falling into a pool of it would be extremely difficult for a human; with immunity, you'd just rest on top, being too bouyant to sink.

[Eldan]

Wow I just double checked the Wizards rules, blimey they suck. Fire and Brimstone however make an interesting point :smallbiggrin:

Edit- Ah wait damn, I think the Fire and Brimstone rules are for 4th edition, anyone found a 3.5 conversion? :smalltongue:

Actually, they are edition- and gameless. It actually says somewhere (I think) that it's wonderfully versatile and can be applied to almost any game.

Edit: Quick google search says magma is about three times as dense as water. Which, I guess, should make humans float on it.

[Ravens_cry]

If we are going to get into physics (Pull!) conduction and convection mean (BANG!) you should burn to a crisp long before you even touch the lava or magma. This is why scientists who go up to lava in person to collect samples wear silvered fireman suits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at_f98qOGY0).
(Dang, got me a GEN-U-INE Catgirl! Should look awful pretty above the fireplace)

[jseah]

"Your character therefore knows he lives in a world where living creatures live off "positive energy" and there are four elements that are channeled in from outside the universe through the Aether. He knows that gravity is very different from our world, as is momentum. Would you like to proceed with trying to create explosives?"
So how does this positive energy work? And what makes the channel, how does it form, what parameters govern its creation?

How does gravity work? Does momentum even exist? (IMO, in D&D land, it looks like a strange version of aristotelean physics, where Force = mass x distance)

Given enough information about the setting physics, as well as running a few judicious in-universe experiments, some form of weapon would rather easy to make.

[Telonius]

My favorite McGuyvering happened a couple years ago while playing the Shackled City campaign path. Thing is, it actually used the game's own rules (not real-world physics) to achieve the ridiculous outcome.

The party was searching out a yuan-ti burial ground. At the time, the party Paladin had a Hippogriff mount named Buster. At one point, we found a few dozen clay urns containing the remains of Yuan-ti priests, trapped with Wail of the Banshee spells. If the jar was opened or broken, the trap triggered. There were a few minor goodies inside each jar (gems and such). The adventure path assumed that, being the greedy bastards that they are, the adventurers would just disarm all the traps to get the treasure.

I reasoned that as long as we didn't actually open the jars, we could take them with us. I pointed out to the Paladin that Wail of the Banshee is a (Death) spell, not an (Evil) spell. We strapped the urns onto Buster, and secured them with ropes.

We had created the D&D version of a B-52. And, of course, we always went back to the blast site to recover the gems anyway. :smallcool:

[only1doug]

My favorite McGuyvering happened a couple years ago while playing the Shackled City campaign path. Thing is, it actually used the game's own rules (not real-world physics) to achieve the ridiculous outcome.

The party was searching out a yuan-ti burial ground. At the time, the party Paladin had a Hippogriff mount named Buster. At one point, we found a few dozen clay urns containing the remains of Yuan-ti priests, trapped with Wail of the Banshee spells. If the jar was opened or broken, the trap triggered. There were a few minor goodies inside each jar (gems and such). The adventure path assumed that, being the greedy bastards that they are, the adventurers would just disarm all the traps to get the treasure.

I reasoned that as long as we didn't actually open the jars, we could take them with us. I pointed out to the Paladin that Wail of the Banshee is a (Death) spell, not an (Evil) spell. We strapped the urns onto Buster, and secured them with ropes.

We had created the D&D version of a B-52. And, of course, we always went back to the blast site to recover the gems anyway. :smallcool:

Excellent re-allocation of resources....

Great planning.

[Ravens_cry]

Brilliant, yes.
I must ask though, how did they know about the WotB if they never opened or broke a jar?

[Darrin]

The Feng Shui RPG had a profound effect on how I approach all RPGs. Thus, if my players are trying to accomplish something unusual, I always fall back on asking myself the following question:

"Would it work in an action movie?"

If the answer is yes, then the players may proceed, and I can adjust either the odds or degree of success to avoid outright abuse. If the answer is no, then I usually combe back with something like, "No, unless you can pitch it to me or rework it in the context of how it would work in an action movie."

In other words, I'm a total pushover. But do my players get their moments of awesome? Hell yes.

[only1doug]

Just FYI, lava/magma is very, very dense. Drowning by, say, falling into a pool of it would be extremely difficult for a human; with immunity, you'd just rest on top, being too bouyant to sink.

It may be more like falling into a pool of Quicksand or thick mud...

Good Luck trying to get out.

[Eldan]

So how does this positive energy work? And what makes the channel, how does it form, what parameters govern its creation?

How does gravity work? Does momentum even exist? (IMO, in D&D land, it looks like a strange version of aristotelean physics, where Force = mass x distance)

Given enough information about the setting physics, as well as running a few judicious in-universe experiments, some form of weapon would rather easy to make.

And I'd love that, I really would. That's creative. Copying the Anti-Osmium bomb off an internet thread is not only lazy, it's needlessly destructive towards the entire campaign.

[Telonius]

Brilliant, yes.
I must ask though, how did they know about the WotB if they never opened or broke a jar?

This was a few years ago, but as I recall the Rogue opened one, and either made his save or had a Death Ward up.

[big teej]

.... I now want to create a character with a flying mount that has A BUNCH of alchemst's fire or something and do the whole carpet bombing thing.

[SartheKobold]

Just ask the question: Do you have knowledge: Physics? Chemistry? Biology? If they do and make the appropriate DC check, let them have a bonus to what they're trying. A giant lens is silly, but improved alchemists' fire? Sure, now make an alchemy check and there's your bonus damage. Or there's your special aalchemists fire that doesn't do half damage to objects. If you're willing to put many skill points into it, it's no longer "real world physics". Just communicate with your players. Ask, what does what your trying to make do? Then assign a dc, a cost and try to base it off something that's already in the game.

>>Giant lens is silly...
http://youtu.be/z0_nuvPKIi8

[JoshuaZ]

People in the early Renaissance knew that fire and living things used the same something from the air. The phlogiston theory was just the most popular explanation. But whether they know about oxygen or think things run off of something else, the throw the torch in trick should work fine. The lens and the sun trick- well considering that there is a legend of Archimedes doing almost exactly that and that's thousands of years before the tech level of most D&D games, I fail to see a problem with that.

Yeah, and if someone has ranks in alchemy they should be able to make gunpowder, and aqua regia and lots of other fun stuff unless you've explicitly stated otherwise. Yes, adjudicating what happens might be tough. This is by the way very distinct from the commoner railgun which is an attempt to combine real world physics with the obvious failings of RAW.

Overall, this doesn't seem to be a big issue.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It gets worse when you have a fan of MythBusters and have characters who attempt to duplicate the effects they produce.

Or, when they try to bring physics in like putting a Decanter of Endless Water in a cube of force (either forcecage or Walls of Force) until you get sufficient pressure to split atoms and create a hydrogen bomb.

Or when they try to use an electricity-based ability (Storm Bolt reserve feat works for unlimited usage) to produce Electrolysis to create Hydrogen and Oxygen gas, mix the two, then set off a Big Boom with them.

[Doc Roc]

Third party rules. These here, to be specific. (http://www.lavarules.com/) They are quite a bit better than the WotC ones, I think.

Okay. So. I can take a direct hit from four ancient dragons, I can absorb hits from antimatter rifles, but I die instantly if I fall in lava? If I'm about to fall in lava, I automatically fall in? And this is better?

Wonderful.

My take on physics in D&D is really simple: "Dwarf fortress! Wheeee! What was the question again?"

[Ravens_cry]

I once built plans for a D&D taser. It involved a crank generator, Leyden jars, and a crossbow with prong headed harpoon bolts.

[Groverfield]

If the character has significant points in Know(Architecture&Engineering,) Know(Arcana) for the chemistry/alchemy and can come up with something plausible, have the workforce to make something like that (sure, that pocket dimension of craftsmen is handy, but 5silver per day for food, leadership feat for them to obey you, and so on. It should get too pricey to do if you're doing WBL properly.)

[Zaq]

If we are going to get into physics (Pull!) conduction and convection mean (BANG!) you should burn to a crisp long before you even touch the lava or magma. This is why scientists who go up to lava in person to collect samples wear silvered fireman suits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at_f98qOGY0).
(Dang, got me a GEN-U-INE Catgirl! Should look awful pretty above the fireplace)

And this is why, when I GM, there are two kinds of lava. There's Adventurer's Lava, which is bright orange glowing molten rock that really, really hurts if you touch it. You're not touching it? You're fine. Why? Maaaaaaagic! It's called Adventurer's Lava because it's very common in dungeons (it's much easier to work with).

Then there's just normal lava. You find normal lava in volcanoes, on the Elemental Plane of Magma, and other places like that. It's very, very hot. Don't get near it without some very nice resistance at worst or immunity at best. Doing otherwise will hurt.

Yes, this has come up.

[Ravens_cry]

Heh. Personally, I would use one or the other unless I had a better reason why 'adventurers lava' acted why it did, like say, a new spell that blocked most heat from entering an area and the residents had a high enough spell caster of the right type to cast it in most areas.
Yes, it is still magic, but it is in a form that the players can potentially do themselves, rather then simply "Maaaaaaagic!"
For example, the players would find it in said spell casters spell book when they defeat them.

[Zaq]

Heh. Personally, I would use one or the other unless I had a better reason why 'adventurers lava' acted why it did, like say, a new spell that blocked most heat from entering an area and the residents had a high enough spell caster of the right type to cast it in most areas.
Yes, it is still magic, but it is in a form that the players can potentially do themselves, rather then simply "Maaaaaaagic!"
For example, the players would find it in said spell casters spell book when they defeat them.

Well, this allows me to actually put lava in dungeons without having to deal with all that pesky convection, but if I ever WANT to bring convection into the picture, I can. I like putting lava in dungeons. In my mind, that's a key part of cinematic dungeon design. (Hey, it's good enough for Bowser . . .) Besides, it's a way of putting a Pit of "Don't Fall Here" in your dungeon without the players trying to steal it, most of the time.

And by magic, of course, I mean less "there's an actual spell on this" and more "Bigby's Waving Hand."

[Ravens_cry]

Well, this allows me to actually put lava in dungeons without having to deal with all that pesky convection, but if I ever WANT to bring convection into the picture, I can. I like putting lava in dungeons. In my mind, that's a key part of cinematic dungeon design. (Hey, it's good enough for Bowser . . .) Besides, it's a way of putting a Pit of "Don't Fall Here" in your dungeon without the players trying to steal it, most of the time.

And by magic, of course, I mean less "there's an actual spell on this" and more "Bigby's Waving Hand."

That's the trouble,. If you have one or the other, the players can accept that the game is either cinematic (adventurers lava) or realistic (lava lava). But with both and no in-universe explanation, you have an inconsistency. This, to me, is bad. Especially in D&D where a player could be forgiven for asking, when told "It's magic","What kind of magic, what spell?"
Having a spell do it, a spell that can be found in a spell book or a scroll, could also be a clue to the players that a place that seems not inhabited, actually is.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Third party rules. These here, to be specific. (http://www.lavarules.com/) They are quite a bit better than the WotC ones, I think.Now I know how to kill those pesky fire elementals.