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View Full Version : Game Problem. stop by if you don't mind head smashing frustration.



Dr paradox
2011-07-23, 04:37 AM
Okay... so...
I'm in the midst of my first campaign, two and a half years in the running, and nowhere near the halfway point of the rough arc I have planned. basically, I'm still in the setup for the bulk of act II, and frankly, I feel like I'm slamming my head into a wall. not from the game itsef, the game is a ton of fun and I look forward to it every week. no, the problem is atually gtting to the point when we can play it.

there's a bit of a rotating cast, with a core to the group consisting of four players who have been around since the start. in addition to them, there are three others currently in the party. all with... problematic attendance. I don't really blame them for it. what i do blame them for is practically NEVER letting me know beforehand that they can't make it.

(By the way, this is a pretty young group, with members running from 13 to 15.)

One of the players is especially a problem, as in the two months of weekly games, has deigned to appear three times, and doesn't see a problem with that. furthermore, he tends to complain that the game should be more coherent and less combat driven, a fair enough sentiment, except for the fact that part of how he thinks to rectify the situation is to cut out combat entirely (which would immediately be snipping away the part of the game that three players find most engaging), and not running games when he isn't there. this is also a player who complained incessantly when a player playing a druid, and a lawful good fighter, wouldn't let him steal a gem from some very obviously angry nature spirits. the same nature spirits that afforded the druid his power.

I don't mean to say that this player (Henceforth known as "Rob") i an unlikeable person, far from it. he's intelligent, witty, eager to lend a hand, and generally a pleasure to talk to. It's just... I get the feeling that he primarily joined the group just to be part of the crowd. which works fine for episodic, dungeon of the week Games, but not so much for ongoing, character driven stories. stories which, by the way, he seems to view as being no different from said hack and slash games. suffice to say, the campaign has slowed to a crawl.

which brings me to my second point. each session gets very very little done, despite having essentially cut combat time in half with a houserule. in a four hour session, we'll be lucky to get two quick social meetings and a combat encounter done with, even though of late I've been satisfied with player focus. It's baffling, and I would go so far as to say that the problem has me gobsmacked.

TO SUM UP IN QUESTION FORM!

1. does anybody have reccomended punishments/incentives/ultimatums to get people to start reliably contacting me about when they can't come?

2. does anyone have any reccomendations about Rob? how to better explain the situation to him, or, if necessary, to move him out of the game smoothely and easily, in a way that won't forever lose a friendship? it seems a tentative situation, that could easily be misconstrued as "I DONT LIKE YOU GTFO."

3. Does anyone have tips on speeding up 4e D&D sessions? whether talking policy, hints on what to skim over, houserules, etc, all is welcome.


Thanks for reading my embarrassingly long rant on what i feel is wrong with my game. even if you have no advice to offer, thanks for forming such an open community for me to pour this little patch of teenage bile into safely. I really owe it to all of you.

Gabe the Bard
2011-07-23, 10:45 AM
1. Our DM gives us bonus XP if everyone arrives for the session early or on time. Also, people who are absent don't get any XP or treasure for the session they missed. Maybe you could do something similar, reward the players for good attendance with XP, and give XP penalties if they don't tell you in advance that they'll be absent.

2. If Rob isn't able to show up most of the time, then just explain to him that you can't put the campaign on hold just for him, since it wouldn't be fair to the other players. And not having ANY combat encounters doesn't make sense unless everyone just wants to do freeform storytelling.

3. Sorry, haven't played 4E, but unless you're running really long encounters, the problem might be in the group dynamic rather than the rules. If there are a lot of side conversations and banter during the game, maybe you could ask the players to focus a bit more and save the chatter for after the game.

Dublock
2011-07-23, 11:34 AM
I do DM (once in a while) for 4E and for my players they know they should have what actions to take on their turn when it comes up.

For course that won't always work, for example a character doing something NO one expects, but for the most part each character should know the roles. I expect my players to have an idea of what they do, i.e. daily, encounter power and be getting dice and telling me when their turn is up.

I will say that the youngest player is in high school so that might not work out.

Kalirren
2011-07-23, 05:43 PM
You have a membership problem. You should make it clear over several sessions that you'd like people to fish or cut bait. Flakiness is a slow, grueling death to a gaming group. Make it clear that you appreciate it when people come, and that you appreciate it when people tell you they can't be there, but that you generally expect that they will be there, and may even have plot-critical events laid out for them, unless they say otherwise. Your job as DM is hard enough as is, and frankly, you've got a story to tell, places to see, people to do, and dragons to kill. And that doesn't happen when you can't tell who's even going to be in the room.

Kalirren
2011-07-23, 05:45 PM
You have a membership problem. You should make it clear over several sessions that you'd like people to fish or cut bait. Flakiness is a slow, grueling death to a gaming group. Make it clear that you appreciate it when people come, and that you appreciate it when people tell you they can't be there, but that you generally expect that they will be there, and may even have plot-critical events laid out for them, unless they say otherwise. Your job as DM is hard enough as is, and frankly, you've got a story to tell, places to see, people to do, and dragons to kill. And that doesn't happen when you can't tell who's even going to be in the room.

Xefas
2011-07-23, 06:10 PM
Step 1: Reflect on how lucky you are to have friends that share your interests. Roleplaying is a pretty niche hobby, and most people out there who want to get into it, or would want to get into it can't, because they aren't as lucky as you are. Even though your friends seem to have other interests and a busy schedule that occasionally prevents them from making every session. Remind yourself that what you're doing is just a game, meant to inspire a few hours of fun a week, and shouldn't be taken too seriously (even if the contents of said game are serious). Recall the good times that you've had, and come to terms with the fact that life happens, and nothing can ever be 100% perfect. Attempting to punish your friends over a game will only cause more problems.

Step 2: This is clearly something you're passionate about. That's good, but don't let it frustrate you too much. If there are major issues that can be resolved, then they can be resolved outside of the game. Try talking to everyone individually and as a group. Explain to them the situation. Tell them how you feel. Don't be accusatory or overly aggressive, but don't let them walk all over you either. All you can do is be as mature and rationale about it as possible.

Step 3: It may turn out that, due to your friends schedules and other interests, the D&D campaign you envision just isn't possible. It happens. We all have an epic to tell, but life is messy. If that campaign won't work, shelve it and try something else. Maybe something more lighthearted that can handle everyone not showing up all the time. Heck, if roleplaying games in general aren't feasible, there are other things you can do with your free time. It isn't the end of the world. It's not worth losing friends over. It's not worth hurt feelings. It's a game.

dps
2011-07-23, 06:57 PM
1. Our DM gives us bonus XP if everyone arrives for the session early or on time. Also, people who are absent don't get any XP or treasure for the session they missed. Maybe you could do something similar, reward the players for good attendance with XP, and give XP penalties if they don't tell you in advance that they'll be absent.


I have some reservation about using in-game punishments for real-world problems (though I agree that no player should get XPs or treasure for sessions that they weren't part of).

Assuming that you serve refreshments, I'd be more inclined to withhold munchies from players who missed sessions (not if they had good reason and let you know ASAP, but if they didn't have good reason or let you know). (*But see below.)



2. If Rob isn't able to show up most of the time, then just explain to him that you can't put the campaign on hold just for him, since it wouldn't be fair to the other players. And not having ANY combat encounters doesn't make sense unless everyone just wants to do freeform storytelling.

Agree.



3. Sorry, haven't played 4E, but unless you're running really long encounters, the problem might be in the group dynamic rather than the rules. If there are a lot of side conversations and banter during the game, maybe you could ask the players to focus a bit more and save the chatter for after the game.

I haven't played 4E either, and even if I had, I'm not sure that we have enough info on how your sessions go to offer good advice.

*On other thing I would mention is that I would find it hard to be too tough on players in that age group for not showing up on schedule. I don't know how it is nowdays, and I'm sure it varies from family to family, but when I was that age, my parents had a lot more control over when and where I went than I did. And my stepfather in particular didn't give much warning about when we might be required to go on a family activity. :smallmad:

WarKitty
2011-07-24, 04:42 PM
One of the things we've done is introduce "episodic" NPC's into the game. Exactly how depends on the setting, but the idea is that there's a couple of different NPC's that are hanging out in the vicinity of the party. Players that can only make it on occasion are allowed to select from an NPC that is in the area and play that character for the night. Alternately, they may play monsters opposing the party (this makes for very interesting and more realistic combats).

Tyndmyr
2011-07-24, 07:37 PM
1. does anybody have reccomended punishments/incentives/ultimatums to get people to start reliably contacting me about when they can't come?

This was actually a recent conflict in my RL group. We instituted a 20% xp penalty for people that don't give a few days advance notice. Adjust the numbers till appropriate for you.


2. does anyone have any reccomendations about Rob? how to better explain the situation to him, or, if necessary, to move him out of the game smoothely and easily, in a way that won't forever lose a friendship? it seems a tentative situation, that could easily be misconstrued as "I DONT LIKE YOU GTFO."

When he comes and whines, point out that the dude who plays every few months doesn't have much of a say in the game, and in any case, he ain't winning a vote. If he keeps bringing it up, make fun of him whenever he does so.

Those people I call friends can all take a bit of constructive criticism and what not.


3. Does anyone have tips on speeding up 4e D&D sessions? whether talking policy, hints on what to skim over, houserules, etc, all is welcome.

3.5 buff personally, so I can't help with this much, but I know that power cards, some way to visually mark status effects, and some highly visible way to track init all proved essentially required when I did play 4e. If you don't yet use them, I'd suggest trying them out to speed up your game. if you do, pop into the 4e section, and they can likely give you more specific advice.

WarKitty
2011-07-24, 08:24 PM
This was actually a recent conflict in my RL group. We instituted a 20% xp penalty for people that don't give a few days advance notice. Adjust the numbers till appropriate for you.

I would be very careful doing this with a group of teenagers. In my experience, what all too frequently happens is that a few hours before you hear "sorry, we can't drop you off/we're going on an outing/some other reason". Particularly since none of them are old enough to drive.

Anderlith
2011-07-24, 11:45 PM
I come from a group like this. We had 8-12 people that would flux in & out because they wouldn't show up but only three of us were "the core group"(Myself & two close friends). My advice from seeing all this happen it this...


1) When a new session is scheduled tell the entire group as soon as you can. This way there is no communication gap. If someone doesn't show up let them "watch the horses" or "he's in the wagon" & they are on auto-follow of the rest of the group. When they can make it back then they can just step out of the "wagon" & go from there. If they do not show up for a month have them be in the nearest available city. The character will just be waiting in the tavern until the player returns.(Or you could drop them from the group)

2) If you have the time set up side missions for Rob that are tailored more to his style, allow him to take reduced experience (or none) at standard sessions. He will eventually get bored (or scared) adventuring alone & want to go with the group more often. If he doesn't then he is not a good player to have in a group game in the first place.

3) Sorry I can't give any advice for 4E as I hate that abomination of D&D & WotC

Katana_Geldar
2011-07-25, 12:12 AM
1) We always try and schedule the next session at the current one, we ask around if people are available that week and communicate on facebook if people can come. What we are playing that week usually depends on who can come.

2) People who don't show and don't tell me they don't show have a very, very bad place in my books. I tell them "I don't care if you text me when I am in the middle of the night or I am in the shower, or even get a message through someone else when you can't comtact me. If I am expecting you to be there and you don't come, tell me!"
I am forgiving for the first no-show, for the second I take measures. Meaning, I ask around the table for something embarrassing to happen to that character.

There's a guy in my group who can't show up most weeks, and if he does it's only for a short visit. But he always tells me beforehand if he can come or not.

3) I run 4e, and I can tell you one thing: think fast and act fast. I run my game efficiently. Get initiative down quick, I ask players from left to right what their roll is and this is after the monsters have rolled. They know now not to shout numbers at me as this confuses me. When I call on a player I tell the next one to get ready, as when I call on them I want three things: What they are doing (as brief as possible), who or what they are targeting and their attack roll.
I know it's not very imaginative, but when you have as many as six to eight players at the table, you need to make compromises during encounters. We are more relaxed when we roleplay, which is a fair bit.

navar100
2011-07-25, 08:00 AM
As you're young, you are making a common mistake for gamers of your age. You want to punish in character for stuff that happens out of character. Don't do that. Out of game problems should be handled out of game. Also, you are the DM and running the game, but you are not The Boss, The Parent, the Supreme Ruler. You don't get to "punish" the players. Certainly you have rules for the game, customs for playing, and you get to decide what the non-player characters of your game world are doing. You don't get to tell the players what to do in real life.

That said, you want to run the game. You are entitled to expect players who want to play to show up. That consistency is needed out of game for the fun of play and in game because the nature of a role playing game is a contiguous story. Therefore, if haphazard attendance is becoming a problem, then you need to talk to your players about it. You need to establish that regular attendance is now necessary. It's not school. You don't need absence notes when a player can't make it. There are plenty of "legitimate" reasons why a player can't play a particular day. What you're asking for is players to make an effort to attend, but if they can't for a particular day, just let you know before hand. You have to insist on that because as DM you need to prepare adventures. To keep the adventures fair for the party, you need to know who will be there. It'll suck if you are planning for lots of undead, but the cleric isn't there without you knowing. If a player finds he really can't commit, then he must depart. It's sad, but necessary. Leave the door open to come back should he find he can make the commitment at a later time.

Dr paradox
2011-07-26, 10:36 AM
As you're young, you are making a common mistake for gamers of your age. You want to punish in character for stuff that happens out of character. Don't do that. Out of game problems should be handled out of game. Also, you are the DM and running the game, but you are not The Boss, The Parent, the Supreme Ruler. You don't get to "punish" the players. Certainly you have rules for the game, customs for playing, and you get to decide what the non-player characters of your game world are doing. You don't get to tell the players what to do in real life.

That said, you want to run the game. You are entitled to expect players who want to play to show up. That consistency is needed out of game for the fun of play and in game because the nature of a role playing game is a contiguous story. Therefore, if haphazard attendance is becoming a problem, then you need to talk to your players about it. You need to establish that regular attendance is now necessary. It's not school. You don't need absence notes when a player can't make it. There are plenty of "legitimate" reasons why a player can't play a particular day. What you're asking for is players to make an effort to attend, but if they can't for a particular day, just let you know before hand. You have to insist on that because as DM you need to prepare adventures. To keep the adventures fair for the party, you need to know who will be there.

I've tried just talking to them about it. four times. none of these times has accomplished anything, which is part of the reason I've come here. also, of course any reprimands would have to first be run my the entire group. nobody is disagreeing that people should call, but it gives more of an incentive to let me know ahead of time.

also, the first two problems have been solved! hurray! and just to clarify, as far as time saving techniques go, I'm also looking for any tips you have to cut down on chatter, perhaps keep some focus, getting people in the right mindset quicker, etc.

Thanks for all the feedback!

Katana_Geldar
2011-07-26, 05:56 PM
Try and put short breaks in your game so people's attention doesn't wander. After an encounter is a good time for a break.

For my SW game, I play the 2th century Fox fanfare when I want to start as it's a signal to the other players to shut up and get serious, you could do something similar for 4e.

Jornophelanthas
2011-07-26, 06:27 PM
also, the first two problems have been solved! hurray!

Could you tell us how the problems were solved?

---

Regarding your third issue, getting little accomplished is only a symptom of the true issue, which is player immersion. From the way you describe it, I am guessing your players are easily distracted and drift out of character all the time.
While you can do little about this mindset (since teenagers often will be easily distracted), one possible approach would be to remove any obvious distractions, e.g. by not playing in a crowded environment, by turning off the TV, and by asking players to switch off their phones and other portable electronics (and give the good example yourself). If the game is the most fun and interesting activity immediately available, they are more likely to focus their attention on it.

flumphy
2011-07-26, 06:43 PM
A couple of suggestions:

Try running a more episodic campaign. You can still have an overarching plot, but if attendance is going to be spotty, then that overarching plot will be hurt less if characters can be easily switched around between adventures. Try an urban campaign where you stay in the same city, or a scenario where all your characters work for the same patron who sends different people out on each mission.

Make sure people are fed. With like, an actual meal. Nothing destroys someone's ability to concentrate like hunger, and snacks will screw with your blood sugar without making you full. If you can't order pizza or cook something yourself or bribe your parents to cook for you, then make sure the session is held immediately after a meal and does not last longer than four or five hours. This seems like common sense, but a couple groups I played with recently proves that it is not.

Like Katana_geldar suggested, short breaks are nice. Just don't let them turn into long breaks that cut significantly into game time.

Dr paradox
2011-07-26, 10:22 PM
Could you tell us how the problems were solved?

Sure. Rob decided that he really wasn't in a position to show up during the summer, so we decided to shelve his character for now. he'll be back once school starts again.

The attendance thing: 500 xp tax if you don't show up and don't call to let us know. all the players have agreed that this seems fair, and we've gone two weeks without the problem.



Regarding your third issue, getting little accomplished is only a symptom of the true issue, which is player immersion. From the way you describe it, I am guessing your players are easily distracted and drift out of character all the time.
While you can do little about this mindset (since teenagers often will be easily distracted), one possible approach would be to remove any obvious distractions, e.g. by not playing in a crowded environment, by turning off the TV, and by asking players to switch off their phones and other portable electronics (and give the good example yourself). If the game is the most fun and interesting activity immediately available, they are more likely to focus their attention on it.

I already do all of the things suggested, although somehow phones and the like keep creeping back out, and they react like they think I'm joking about it.

I think part of the problem about out of character conversation is that we're already good friends, so there are a lot of things to talk about during this weekly thing where we all sit around a table talking. recently out of character stuff has gotten better, and more focused, and all of them are putting in more of an effort to act in character. there are still occasional points though, but I seem to be able to more or less curb that with suggestions, such as "Here could we talk about this some other time? there's a gnoll trying to gnaw your ear off."


Make sure people are fed. With like, an actual meal. Nothing destroys someone's ability to concentrate like hunger, and snacks will screw with your blood sugar without making you full.

This is a really good suggestion. I'll look into it.


For my SW game, I play the 2th century Fox fanfare when I want to start as it's a signal to the other players to shut up and get serious, you could do something similar for 4e.

really neat idea! I'll try to see if I can work something out like that, though it could be a problem since I don't have any portable devices that can play music or sound effects like that.

Gabe the Bard
2011-07-28, 02:38 AM
The suggestion about food is a very good one. I've only played with two different groups in recent years, but both groups schedule their games around lunch or dinner.