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View Full Version : How to help a "bad" player



Ducklord
2011-07-23, 05:36 AM
In a group I play in there's a player who's still pretty new to d&d. But inexperience is not so much of a problem as his general style of play. He tends to bring the game to a grinding halt every time it's his turn in combat. When it's his time to take an action he always starts listing through his character sheet looking for spells he has prepared or items that his character has on to see if something can be useful.. He also frequently stops to ask the DM OOC what the consequences of this or that action might be and for mechanics of spells, movement etc.

This isn't the only problem though, even out of combat he always attempts to hog the spotlight and takes forever to do anything. He engages nameless NPCs in long pointless debates, spends incredible amounts of time searching clearly empty rooms for whatever, in the morning when he needs to prepare spells he starts debating with others what he should take and why, often changing his mind about it..

In other words he basically makes the game to slow to be any fun any more. The simplest solution would of course be kicking him out, but I would rather try and teach him to skip on the boring and to speed up his gaming a bit. What should I tell him? How should I even approach the subject? It has been pointed out to him multiple times, that he takes too long to do anything, and nothing changed.

tldr: How can "be quicker or find another group" be put into nice words? :smallsmile:

Asheram
2011-07-23, 05:52 AM
In a group I play in there's a player who's still pretty new to d&d. But inexperience is not so much of a problem as his general style of play. He tends to bring the game to a grinding halt every time it's his turn in combat. When it's his time to take an action he always starts listing through his character sheet looking for spells he has prepared or items that his character has on to see if something can be useful.. He also frequently stops to ask the DM OOC what the consequences of this or that action might be and for mechanics of spells, movement etc.

This isn't the only problem though, even out of combat he always attempts to hog the spotlight and takes forever to do anything. He engages nameless NPCs in long pointless debates, spends incredible amounts of time searching clearly empty rooms for whatever, in the morning when he needs to prepare spells he starts debating with others what he should take and why, often changing his mind about it..

In other words he basically makes the game to slow to be any fun any more. The simplest solution would of course be kicking him out, but I would rather try and teach him to skip on the boring and to speed up his gaming a bit. What should I tell him? How should I even approach the subject? It has been pointed out to him multiple times, that he takes too long to do anything, and nothing changed.

tldr: How can "be quicker or find another group" be put into nice words? :smallsmile:

Well... about combat you can always give him a time limit. If he can't make a decision in 30 seconds, his character is now played by committee or forfeits the round.

The spell-list trouble is a bit more difficult. Make him write up a standardised spell list, and don't allow more than a minute for fine adjustment in the mornings. (Or you could make him play a spontaneous caster, with the 30 sec rule, that'd be simpler)

Roleplay... it's every peoples right, but try to make him understand that for every minutes he talk and it isn't vital, he steals time from the rest of the group. If he so dearly wants to win a discussion, make him write a note with the topic and roll diplomacy.

Engine
2011-07-23, 05:55 AM
In a group I play in there's a player who's still pretty new to d&d. But inexperience is not so much of a problem as his general style of play. He tends to bring the game to a grinding halt every time it's his turn in combat. When it's his time to take an action he always starts listing through his character sheet looking for spells he has prepared or items that his character has on to see if something can be useful.. He also frequently stops to ask the DM OOC what the consequences of this or that action might be and for mechanics of spells, movement etc.

This isn't the only problem though, even out of combat he always attempts to hog the spotlight and takes forever to do anything. He engages nameless NPCs in long pointless debates, spends incredible amounts of time searching clearly empty rooms for whatever, in the morning when he needs to prepare spells he starts debating with others what he should take and why, often changing his mind about it..

In other words he basically makes the game to slow to be any fun any more. The simplest solution would of course be kicking him out, but I would rather try and teach him to skip on the boring and to speed up his gaming a bit. What should I tell him? How should I even approach the subject? It has been pointed out to him multiple times, that he takes too long to do anything, and nothing changed.

tldr: How can "be quicker or find another group" be put into nice words? :smallsmile:

Convince him to play a simpler class, like a Fighter or a Barbarian. This should speed things, mostly because he could do few things in combat apart "I Attack" and "I attack really hard". And of course no spell memorization required, so every morning his character has to just grab the sword and he's ready to go.

For the pointless debates, well. The DM could just have the NPC say "Enough of this, I have other things to do" and let her leave the scene after a while. Or the group (IC) could team up on him so he stops doing this. Your choice, but you should keep him in check.

Endless searchings? "Do you take 20?" - "Yes." - "You find nothing."

Jay R
2011-07-23, 08:07 AM
Does he want your help?

Regardless of what you think you're doing, he will see unsolicited "help" as you trying to take away his spotlight or his choices or his fun, if he catches you at it.

The common attribute of his actions is indecision. Your goal is to get him to decide quickly. And since he's not comfortable making the decision, all attempts to hurry him up will feel like you're forcing hiom into a mistake, and all mishaps will be blamed on you.

I would try to be subtle when other people are taking their turn: "I'm going to use a fireball next round. What are you planning?" This works particularly well if you can coordinate with him. "I'm about to attack the left flank with a fireball. Use an area effect spell on the right flank."

But everything you can do has to be aimed at helping him reach a decision faster.

The DM has other tools. The 30 second rule works. Room searching can be handled with wandering monsters.

But as long as he's enjoying taking time to make his decisions, and there's no penalty for doing so, there is no motivation for him to change.

Tyndmyr
2011-07-23, 08:44 AM
Here, first off, tell him he's being too slow. Then, offer suggestions. Timer in combat is a good idea all round. Encourage him to plan out his action in advance. Also, suggest that he have a default spells prepared list that he use unless he has reason to tweak it for a given day. Multiple lists, if he has certain things he tends to prepare for.

Talk with him about searching. Make sure he understands that he can make a single search check for the room, and call it done. Chat with the DM if you aren't the DM so that the DM tells him he's done and needs to move on.

snoopy13a
2011-07-23, 02:14 PM
A simpler character is a good idea as is a time limit. In fact, the old West End Games version of the Star Wars RPG actually had a time limit as part of the rule set. Essentially, if you didn't decide what to do fast enough, your character didn't do anything.

As for discussions with NPCs, the NPCs can simply break off conversation. Most people simply do not like to have lengthy conversations with strangers (assuming the strangers aren't attractive members of the opposite sex :smalltongue: ). Why should NPCs be any different?

I really don't know what to do about lengthy searches outside of in-game consequences. For example, while the player is spending in-game time combing over a room, all of rest of the bad guys in the dungeon either flee with their loot or set up an ambush.

Ducklord
2011-07-24, 01:41 PM
Sooo.. I asked the beforementioned player if he could come to today's session a little earlier, to discuss why it takes so long for him to do anything, he said ok and proceeded to show up 90min later than anybody else. I think he'll be leaving the group soon.

dsmiles
2011-07-25, 12:05 PM
Here, first off, tell him he's being too slow. Then, offer suggestions. Timer in combat is a good idea all round. Encourage him to plan out his action in advance. Also, suggest that he have a default spells prepared list that he use unless he has reason to tweak it for a given day. Multiple lists, if he has certain things he tends to prepare for.

Talk with him about searching. Make sure he understands that he can make a single search check for the room, and call it done. Chat with the DM if you aren't the DM so that the DM tells him he's done and needs to move on.This. Even in a group with all experienced and capable gamers, we use a 1-minute egg timer for individual combat rounds. If you haven't stated your action when the timer goes off, you forfeit your initiative.

I've never met anyone, though, that doesn't just say they're taking 10 or taking 20 to search a room, and spell selection? Personally, (if I happen to play a caster) I have a 2 lists of spells. One for days when my character would reasonably expect combat, one for when he (or she) wouldn't. (Though I hardly optimize my spell choices on the second list, they're all basic utility spells.)

Telonius
2011-07-25, 12:08 PM
Sooo.. I asked the beforementioned player if he could come to today's session a little earlier, to discuss why it takes so long for him to do anything, he said ok and proceeded to show up 90min later than anybody else. I think he'll be leaving the group soon.

.. yeah, that's unfortunate. Seems like the guy doesn't have respect for other people's time. It's probably best for everybody involved that he doesn't return.

big teej
2011-07-27, 09:51 PM
Sooo.. I asked the beforementioned player if he could come to today's session a little earlier, to discuss why it takes so long for him to do anything, he said ok and proceeded to show up 90min later than anybody else. I think he'll be leaving the group soon.

good grief...

I'm all for spiting people, but this is just dumb....

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume you wern't a complete horse's pa-toot when you mentioned this to him.

the fact the he (I presume) purposely then showed up an HOUR AND A HALF late to spite you....

that's just dumb.

-proceeds to grumble about mis-application of spite-

you're group is better off without him.

Steward
2011-07-27, 10:01 PM
That seems like a reasonable call. You can't force someone to change their personality; you can only ask and give them a chance. If they're unwilling to even consider it, then you have to either make an accommodation for it or let them go.

The Glyphstone
2011-07-27, 10:31 PM
Yeah, it looks like you should jettison this guy - he's now moved from passively uninterested in changing to actively working against you in changing.

NichG
2011-07-28, 12:15 AM
So this is just general advice now if the guy is getting kicked, but:

For hogging the spotlight, the magic words for the DM are 'okay, I'll get back to you on that, now what are you [another player] doing?'

If you're not the DM, its harder.

Sipex
2011-07-28, 10:54 AM
Before we go assuming this guy is a bad player (as you mentioned he's pretty new so he's still learning game etiquitte) do we have a reason for why he was 90 minutes late? It sounds like this is a one time occurance.

That said, opting to talk to him about it (also bring up the hogging the spot light stuff in a non-hostile way, he might not realise it bugs you guys) is a good start.

JonRG
2011-07-28, 12:21 PM
- post about a problem player slowing down the game and draining it of fun -

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/9/14/d4d25a14-fef6-4d5c-a110-aefb3bc96dc9.jpg

I was just about to make a similar post, minus the inexperience. But he tries to analyze every situation for the best possible solution and leaves the other 3-4 players bored to tears. What's worse is he's joining us online, so any disruptions are even harder to handle, plus practically everything needs to be described to him. :smallmad:

The DM (and the rest of the group) aren't ready to give him the kiss off, but the game is getting really, really unfun. :smallfrown:

Any advice, fearless denizens of the playground?

Cerlis
2011-07-28, 12:37 PM
sounds more like hes irresponsible and not orginized.


Not out to hog the spotlight or spite people.

almost everything hes doing is based off not wanting to do something wrong (whether that falls into making the wrong decision, or missing something)


but i guess thats just me.

Sipex
2011-07-28, 01:56 PM
Yeah, his intents aren't malicious, he just doesn't want to make the wrong choice without the facts.

Bring it up out of game (to him) and see if there's anything you can do to change it.