Lesser Planetouched too powerfull???

[Kornilios]

I am reading the lesser planetouched in PGtF.If I understand correct what I am reading,a lesser Aasimar has the following traits:
.+2 wis,+2 cha
.darkvision 60 feet
.Racial Skills:+2 spot,+2 listen
.special attack: daylight
.SQ:resistance cold 5,acid 5,electricity 5
.Automatic languanges common,celectial
.FC:paladin
.Planetouched:Planetouched are humanoids(not outsiders) with the planetouched subtype.They are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target both humanoids and outsiders.Charm person works against them,and so does banishment.This trait replaces the outsider entry in each planetouched entry.
.Level adjustment:0

Am I reading correct?Is that too powerfull?Wtf?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

You are reading that correct. They are strong. The designers did a lot of weird things with creature types and ability modifiers. It's a nice ballpark to go "equal modified stats+change=0LA."

Thing is, that doesn't work, really. A human's 1 feat is worth 3 levels, more or less. That's... that's something right there. So while a lesser Planetouched is rocking better stats, they aren't automatically better characters.

[Kornilios]

Nice.I suppose also leser Aasimar is the best race for druid.+2 wis,+2 cha(for the dc of the abilitie's of your new form's) +2 spot,listen are just awesome :D

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Close. The best druid is actually some form of anthropomorphic animal, as those guys generally rocking silly things like +6 to Dexterity and Wisdom each while dumping things like Charisma and Strength.

Not all DND races are created equal, sadly.

[Volthawk]

Nice.I suppose also leser Aasimar is the best race for druid.+2 wis,+2 cha(for the dc of the abilitie's of your new form's) +2 spot,listen are just awesome :D

Well, really it's not the best LA +0 race for druids. That goes to Anthropomorphic Bat, since it gives +6 Wisdom, and also doesn't decrease Con, and those are the two most important stats for druids, really.

[Ravens_cry]

Half-Orcs really get the shaft. -2 Intelligence I understand given their heritage, but -2 charisma a basically says "No arcane casting for you!" and also hurts one of the core kinds of divine casting. Personally, I think Pathfidner went too far in the other direction. I like their Beta rules statistics, it felt thematic. Now there is no reason mechanically to think of them as big and strong.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Patherfinder's approach of rebalancing races at a total ability score modifier at +2 and change is rather acceptable in my mind. I like the idea of playing a crazy Vanaran Archivist with no strength score to speak of or a Lesser Tiefling with a bad track record of burglaries without having to worry about LA.

[Zaq]

Yeah. It's not that lesser planetouched are especially good. It's that most races are really bad.

That said, I raise an eyebrow at lesser aasimar, just because bonuses to mental stats are pretty rare, so getting two mental stat bumps and no penalty is, while definitely not overpowered, definitely worth a second glance at the rest of the party, just for comparison. (Yes, I know about gray elves and Dragonwrought kobolds and buommans and hellbred and spellscales and deep imaskari. I do play this game.) If the rest of the party is playing good races? Sure, have your not-quite-celestial prettyboy. If the rest of the party is playing shifters and elves and rilkans? Well, as a GM, I still probably wouldn't ban the lesser aasimar, but I WOULD definitely keep a note of what the player's doing and how they fare compared to the rest of the party.

Basically, lesser aasimar isn't a problem, but it may or may not be a warning sign of power-grabbery. Now, I'm not saying power-grabbery is bad. I'm just saying that if party balance is a goal, well, lesser aasimar are more in line with humans, whisper gnomes, and warforged than with a lot of the other races out there.

They do break a lot of rules. That doesn't mean that they're bad (most of those rules were silly). It just means that you have to be careful with 'em.

Of course, my favorite races are the ones who can (but don't have to) really have an effect on the way your character plays beyond just "welp, the stat bump's in the right place" (or even just "hey, free feat!"). Illumians are my primary example . . . my illumian is different from your illumian, and they both help us out to get what we really want. You get to choose your "+2 to blah blah skills" in such a way that you're actually likely to notice it, and if you pick the right word combination, well, it makes a difference. (Not always, but enough.) Warforged, too, really feel like you're not just "like human, but . . ." Yes, any race has a greater or lesser degree of fluff that makes a difference, but how many races are as mechanically different as the warforged? Not nearly enough. The difference between a human Class Q and a warforged Class Q is much greater, in my mind, than the difference between (say) a human Class Q and a gnome Class Q. Most races don't give you that. I like races that do. In that respect, I kind of have to respect lesser aasimar, because they do at least have enough traits that you actually notice them. (Racial energy resistance is pretty sweet.)

[Ravens_cry]

Oh,I alike the net +2 for most races in Pathfinder, I just think that half-orcs are different enough from humans for something different than the human discretionary +2. It does make the half-orc wizard I am making easier though.

[Kornilios]

Well, really it's not the best LA +0 race for druids. That goes to Anthropomorphic Bat, since it gives +6 Wisdom, and also doesn't decrease Con, and those are the two most important stats for druids, really.

I guess it's better but Anthropomorphic bat sounds like Batman without his dignity :p

[Thrice Dead Cat]

*snip*

I agree with you a lot there, Zaq, especially considering how many variants there are to Gnome/Halfling/Elf/Dwarf/Orc on the SRD. A lot of stuff is really just rehashed little person/bearded guy/tall snob/brute.


Oh,I alike the net +2 for most races in Pathfinder, I just think that half-orcs are different enough from humans for something different than the human discretionary +2. It does make the half-orc wizard I am making easier though.

I've stopped carrying about Pathfinder due to some of the design choices of the creators, but I'm not above looting its awesome ideas for stuff I will do in a 3.5 game or campaign.


EDIT:
I guess it's better but Anthropomorphic bat sounds like Batman without his dignity :p

This is sig worthy, easy. Also, terribly true.:smallfrown:

[Honest Tiefling]

Lesser Aasimar get the downsides of being human (Yes, human, as they can only be from human stock) and the downsides of being an outsider. I believe this means they can get banished. I'm not 100% sure where they get banished to, but that has gotta suck for Lesser Tieflings (OH **** I AM IN BAATOR).

I don't think it really counterbalances a net +4 stat increase, or +2 for tieflings. But it is an annoyance when going against prepared spellcasters. They are certainly one of the more powerful races, even if their favored class is paladin. Tieflings are close, but the -2 CHA cancelling out racial bonuses can be annoying. As was said earlier, don't combine these guys with a party made of Half Orcs and Half Elves.

[Blisstake]

Thing is, that doesn't work, really. A human's 1 feat is worth 3 levels, more or less. That's... that's something right there. So while a lesser Planetouched is rocking better stats, they aren't automatically better characters.

A feat is worth 3 levels? You think humans should be LA +3?

I mean, you get a feat every 3 levels, but you also gain hit dice, skill points, BAB, saves, class features, and spellcasting. Did I misunderstand you?

[Salanmander]

Thing is, that doesn't work, really. A human's 1 feat is worth 3 levels, more or less. That's... that's something right there. So while a lesser Planetouched is rocking better stats, they aren't automatically better characters.

Nitpick: "worth 3 levels" is a pretty extreme overstatement. It puts you 3 levels ahead of the curve in /one/ area of your character, but there are many many aspects of your character, and it does nothing to the rest of them. True, for feat-dependent characters it will get you to using your schtick 3 levels faster, which is major, but there are other characters who would be much better served by small size, or a choice stat bonus.

Edit: Ninja'd >_<

[Zaq]

A feat is worth 3 levels? You think humans should be LA +3?

I mean, you get a feat every 3 levels, but you also gain hit dice, skill points, BAB, saves, class features, and spellcasting. Did I misunderstand you?

More "it lets tricks come online 3 levels earlier" than "it makes you 3 levels better," but there's still no denying that humans are, well, an awfully high balance point in the 3.5 paradigm.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

A feat is worth 3 levels? You think humans should be LA +3?

I mean, you get a feat every 3 levels, but you also gain hit dice, skill points, BAB, saves, class features, and spellcasting. Did I misunderstand you?

Yes and no. Human's break the rubric. An extra feat is nothing to sneeze at, especially early game. It's certainly not a full +3 LA, but it puts a character ahead three levels (kind of) in so far as feats go. For feat intensive things like Shock Trooper power attack multiplication, that's really important.

EDIT: Swordsage'd by Zaq. Cuz the man that played a Truenamer sure as hell isn't a stinking ninja.:smalltongue:

[Blisstake]

Yeah, humans are great... just not extra three levels great :smallwink:

[FMArthur]

Two +2 stats and one -2 stat is pretty acceptable even outside of Pathfinder when put alongside powerful races such as humans, dwarves, strongheart halflings, whisper gnomes, warforged, etc. Aasimar should probably have a penalty somewhere, like Dex or Con. But the energy resistances are a bit over the line.

One suggested fix for tieflings in Pathfinder is to force them to take the Infernal Bastard trait, which removes the Darkness SLA to get a chosen cantrip, and removes energy resistances to instead give bonuses to saves against those energy effects. You could homebrew the exact same thing for a lesser aasimar and it would work just fine in a PF or 3.5 game.

[Soranar]

Lesser Aasimar don't need to be weaker. WIS +2 and CHA +2 is just not that great, sure it's nice on a casting class but there's more to races then mere stats.

For example, the core races.

humans are still better than aasimar (and many many other races) for a couple of reasons besides the bonus feat

-extra skillpoints is better than it sounds for many builds

Some human only feats are awesome (able learner, dreadful wrath) and , unlike human only classes, they can be taken without requiring a specific build in mind.

human paragon is strangely powerful as far as paragon classes go

finally the ''any favored class'' opens up a lot of options unworkable for everyone else (which is why some DMs just ignore those penalties)

Many core races get powerful ,race specific, options that makes them far more valuable:substitutions levels, race specific PrCs.

The best illusionist build is a gnome (illusionist substitution levels + shadowcraft mage PrC).

Dwarves tend to be amongst the strongest armored builds (clerics, fighters, you name it they have a race specific PrC for it combined with a decent substitution options).

Halflings make the best DEX based builds (same reason as dwarves make the best armored builds)

And everyone knows elves get a lot of good race specific stuff.

Lesser aasimar get WIS +2 and CHA +2 with paladin as a favored class. The only thing great about a lesser Aasimar druid is that it's a druid. The problem here is not the race but the class. Paladin 2 can be a useful dip for high level games (level 12 and up) but otherwise you'll want to play a straight caster instead so you're only really getting a +2 to your casting stat unless you're playing a dual casting stat class which is good way to nerf yourself.

[ericgrau]

So the only change is their type? Ya that's too much.


Yeah. It's not that lesser planetouched are especially good. It's that most races are really bad.
Since "most races" are supposed to be used as the definition of what's par, what you said makes lesser planetouched especially good by definition. Or a gaming group that's become so used to power creep that anything normal doesn't keep up anymore.

I'd give the outsider(native) type back to them, let them choose 1 mental stat or the other, ditch the energy resistances, drop the spot/listen bonuses to +1, and ditch daylight. And now they're still really good spellcasters, probably the high end of LA 0, but without many special abilities I suppose it's fair.

[Flickerdart]

Charisma does very little unless you optimize for it, so it's not exactly a ridiculous stat to boost. Most of the classes that do want Charisma couldn't care less about Wisdom (excluding Cleric, Favored Soul and Paladin, but Paladin needs all the help it can get anyway). Bards and Sorcerers, for instance, can freely dump Wisdom because of their good Will saves. I would say Tiefling is actually stronger as a Lesser Planetouched, since it hits CHA that nobody cares about but raises two stats everybody likes.
If you want LA0 planetouched in your campaign but feel that Lesser ones are too strong, use these (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) without their additional template level. Aasimar becomes +2 CHA, Tiefling becomes +2 DEX -2 CHA and everyone is happy.

[Ravens_cry]

Charisma may be a dump stat for many builds, but it makes a fun one to add to unexpectedly. Why yes, I am a man of sword and blade, my religious beliefs are about the same as most, but I do in fact have more personality then a dumb rock. Actually, you can say that about all the mental stats in builds that don't generally use them. Look at Roy.:roy:

[Tvtyrant]

Its no better than the mass immunities of a Warforged, honestly. It just puts it into a Tier 1 LA 0 race, along with Illumnians and Humans.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Charisma may be a dump stat for many builds, but it makes a fun one to add to unexpectedly. Why yes, I am a man of sword and blade, my religious beliefs are about the same as most, but I do in fact have more personality then a dumb rock. Actually, you can say that about all the mental stats in builds that don't generally use them. Look at Roy.:roy:

Charisma is a lot of things. It's a lot of knowing when to talk, and, I dare so more importantly, when not to talk.:smallwink:

[Zaq]

So the only change is their type? Ya that's too much.


Since "most races" are supposed to be used as the definition of what's par, what you said makes lesser planetouched especially good by definition. Or a gaming group that's become so used to power creep that anything normal doesn't keep up anymore.

I'd give the outsider(native) type back to them, let them choose 1 mental stat or the other, ditch the energy resistances, drop the spot/listen bonuses to +1, and ditch daylight. And now they're still really good spellcasters, probably the high end of LA 0, but without many special abilities I suppose it's fair.

When two of the best races (humans and dwarves) have been around from day 1, I would disagree that certain races being better than others is a result of "power creep."

Basically, there are a lot of races where, unless you specifically go out of your way to play up the fluff, it's easy to forget what race you are (or, put another way, it's easy to swap out for another race without changing how the character actually plays). If your race doesn't have something that reminds you, every day, that yes, you ARE this race and not that one . . . well, then that's not a very good race.

[Aergoth]

The important things about lesser planetouched:

They have the disadvantages of being humanoid: affected by hold person and the like that wouldn't work on an Outsider (Native) creature
And they can be banished, back to the Prime Material if they're on another plane, exactly like an outsider. Tieflings are related to creatures from the lower planes, not necessarily from there themselves. Spells that don't neccesarily work on humanoids but would work on an outsider will work on a Lesser Planetouched, AFAIK.

You also wouldn't get the advantages of an Outsider (proficiency with martial weapons). In short, you're stabbing yourself in the foot over an LA+0 race with stats that aren't incredibly nice.

And if you've got a clever DM they very likely *will* take advantage of these facts.

[Urpriest]

Lesser Aasimar's main problem is that it was designed by people who didn't understand their own system. You are susceptible to spells that target outsiders...like? Banishment doesn't do anything special to outsiders, it works on extraplanar creatures, which a humanoid can be anyway. The ability doesn't do what its creators thought it did in a very obvious way.

[ericgrau]

When two of the best races (humans and dwarves) have been around from day 1, I would disagree that certain races being better than others is a result of "power creep."
Dwarves are good, but still LA 0.5 at best. A million minor special abilities only goes so far, and a boost to everybody's secondary stat, while very useful across the board, still isn't anybody's best stat. A lesser assimar OTOH makes every single Player's Handbook race obsolete for any wis/cha focused class.

Humans get better and keep up in splatbooks only b/c feats get better in splatbooks. A 2000 article made a good point though now it gets made fun of for it; half-orc fighter/barbarians are (were) better than human fighter/barbarians b/c that +2 strength was usually better than any feat you could get. That used to be true.

[Ernir]

Basically, there are a lot of races where, unless you specifically go out of your way to play up the fluff, it's easy to forget what race you are (or, put another way, it's easy to swap out for another race without changing how the character actually plays). If your race doesn't have something that reminds you, every day, that yes, you ARE this race and not that one . . . well, then that's not a very good race.

I'm way too familiar with this.

In one of my campaigns, there is a PC Wizard who has a bad habit of dying. Fortunately, his fellow PC Druid has been able to Last Breath him up to speed almost every time.

This Wizard was born an elf, but has since been a goblin, a dwarf, and a gnome (his current form).
Aside from some very minor differences in AC, touch attack bonus, and hit point total, this change just... doesn't matter. I have to consciously remind myself that it's going to cause confusion among the NPCs that the famous elven Wizard is walking around as a gnome.




It was a very different story when my unicorn was reincarnated as a Winter Wolf. He still hasn't gotten over the fact that he's now a thing he used to hate - a carnivore.

EDIT:
A lesser assimar OTOH makes every single Player's Handbook race obsolete for any wis/cha focused class.
No, due to the inflated value of feats (which you mentioned yourself), the human is still often on top.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

No, due to the inflated value of feats (which you mentioned yourself), the human is still often on top.

Honestly, I'm okay with feats being a strong resource on a character. They let you do new, interesting things or improve upon things you already do. I like to focus more on the former (Power Attack, Cloudy Conjuration, metamagics) than the latter (Improved Trip, the set of TWFing feats, etc.). You can get some odd taxes either due to PrCs or to weapon styles (Looking at you, TWFing:smallannoyed:) but in general I like the idea of feats.

[Ernir]

Honestly, I'm okay with feats being a strong resource on a character. They let you do new, interesting things or improve upon things you already do. I like to focus more on the former (Power Attack, Cloudy Conjuration, metamagics) than the latter (Improved Trip, the set of TWFing feats, etc.). You can get some odd taxes either due to PrCs or to weapon styles (Looking at you, TWFing:smallannoyed:) but in general I like the idea of feats.

I did not say I disapproved of the shift. :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

No, due to the inflated value of feats (which you mentioned yourself), the human is still often on top.
Ok, then compared to every Player's Handbook race with Player's Handbook feats... it doesn't change the power creep issue either way. Still I wonder if a caster build's 3rd best feat would be better even outside the PH, or at high levels their 5th-8th best feat.

[Psyren]

I think PF Half-orcs should have been "+2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Any"

[ericgrau]

It is kinda wonky that they make the best fire sorcerers... at +2 cha and +0 str. Besides that they get... darkvision. Did half-orcs get shafted? I mean heck the 3.5 version with +2 to str and +2 to another physical stat would have been stronger.

Though chain fighter and gatecrasher don't seem too shabby. Free spiked chain or a bonus to break down doors.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think PF Half-orcs should have been "+2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Any"

Since PF makes it so you have a bonus in one physical and one mental stat (instead of +2 net gain), it should be "+2 strength, +2 wisdom, -2 charisma. Half-orcs are strong and instinctive, but gruff."

Also, I think PF did a very good job of balancing races (well, until the human sorcerer ARF came in the advanced players guide. But sorcerers are good anyway)

[ericgrau]

Ya the human sorcerer ARF is pretty nutso, but not terribly so until you're casting 4th level spells. I was making a 6th level sorcerer in a low life expectancy campaign and that wasn't enough to make me switch races after I was already done with the character concept.