The UPS Man: Mailman's Brother

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Similar in concept to the Mailman build, the UPS (Unavoidable Pwning System) Man always delivers on time. Instead of direct damage, like the Mailman, he delivers status effects. All the time, every time, yes even then time.

He even uses a couple of the same tricks with Metamagic. He'll be applying several Metamagic feats to spells with SR: No and no saving throw to deliver crippling status effects.

This build never has to pick up the dice. By that I mean neither you nor your opponent will be rolling anything. You simply declare it to happen, and it does. That's the true strength of the build...

The weakness of the build is that immunities can hurt it if you can't figure out how to bypass them. Dread Witch lets you bypass immunities to Fear effects, but I haven't found anything yet that will allow you to bypass immunities to Negative Levels. Fortunately, other than undead and constructs, not too many things are immune to them.

The basis and foundation of the build is going to be Fell Drain and Fell Frighten. Both of these have stacking effects, and can be crippling when properly applied.

Fear effects stack, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Fell Frighten doesn't. It also doesn't allow a saving throw.

Negative levels are a combination of a 'you die now' and 'even if you don't die, you're debuffed hardcore'.

Invisible Spell is used for a similar purpose to the Mailman's... Spellsurge. However, in addition, it allows him to use spells which normally grant concealment (fog cloud) to no longer give concealment, because the fog is no longer visible. The other effects, however, still work.

Now then, how do you get this thing to work? Simple! We turn to Frostburn and Flashfrost. Now you're doing damage, and now opponents automatically get fear up a step and a negative level every round, no save, no SR.

From there, we simply pick up the pace and break action economy to pull off one-round-I-win buttons.

Now, there's a couple of flies to this ointment, which is why I'm bringing this to the GITP boards...

First off, it's highly Feat intensive. We're looking at Fell Drain and Fell Frighten, then Flashfrost, then Arcane Mastery (to Take 10 on Caster Level checks, which is useful for dispelling of opponent debuffs), probably Quicken (trading in familiar to be able to do so), and then Gain Familiar so you can Imbue Familiar for more action economy abuse, Piercing Cold so opponents are not immune to cold damage, Snowcasting to apply the Cold descriptor...

I'd also like to apply more status effects, if possible, as riders.

As an example...

Invisible, Snowcasting, Piercing Cold, Flash Frost, Fell Drain, Fell Frighten Obscuring Mist.

Every turn someone is in the area, they take 2 cold damage, unresistable, become Shaken (or increase fear one step), and gain a negative level. No save, No SR.

I need some kind of metamagic reduction here which will reduce cost to or below 0, due to the sheer number of metamagic feats I am applying. Failing that, Incantatrix + Spellcraft. There's several ways to Take 10 on Spellcraft checks, so you won't even need to worry rolling.

As far as a build, I'm thinking Sorcerer/Incantatrix/Dread Witch. Maybe a level of Exemplar to Take 10 on skills you will need, like Spellcraft, Balance, Tumble, and Concentration.

EDIT: As per Dextercordova's suggestion, instead of going Ice, we can go Fire for a much easier time of it...

Scorching Spell, Blistering Spell, and the spell Raging Flame from SpC. Since we're only using one spell, we may now use Arcane Thesis to great effect.

Edit2: Please stop suggesting Pathfinder material. I want a 3.5 build, not a 3.P build.

[Midnight_v]

Ah! The Lord of the Save or die.

It'll be really interesting to see where this goes.
I know there's a famous thread called "Spells that *badwording* kill people" and that might help you pic optimal spells to apply your metas to.
Why? The thing where you ruin opponents even on a sucessful save is awesome.



The weakness of the build is that immunities can hurt it if you can't figure out how to bypass them. Dread Witch lets you bypass immunities to Fear effects, but I haven't found anything yet that will allow you to bypass immunities to Negative Levels. Fortunately, other than undead and constructs, not too many things are immune to them.
This is why I'm such a stickler about how the spells matter. A week or so ago I looked for a save or lose that was reflex based and I could only come up with "Murderous Mist" though honestly I hand considered "Wings of flurry" till I realized today that it dazed on a reflex save... which is actually pretty rare, but the cool thing is both of those things affect: Constructs and Undead.

So while filling the feat hole are important, equally important is having things in your bag of tricks for immune monsters. Easily fixed via multi-purpose spells.
Brilliant Idea though.

[Madcrafter]

I don't really see why you want to make such extensive use of invisible spell; if you don't want it to be visible, there are probably other options of base spells. That would save you a feat (although a potentially useful one), and leave more room for something like arcane thesis or practiced metamagic.

As for you sample spell, Obscuring mist might not be the best of choices, unless you plan to skedaddle out of the area very quickly.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ah! The Lord of the Save or die. Not quite. It's the lord of 'Dice? We don't need no stinkin' dice!'. He doesn't give you a saving throw, doesn't need to make an attack roll, you are simply affected. Yes, even then.


It'll be really interesting to see where this goes.
I know there's a famous thread called "Spells that *badwording* kill people" and that might help you pic optimal spells to apply your metas to.
Why? The thing where you ruin opponents even on a sucessful save is awesome. Really, any area-effect spell can do the job. Some simply do better than others.


This is why I'm such a stickler about how the spells matter. A week or so ago I looked for a save or lose that was reflex based and I could only come up with "Murderous Mist" though honestly I hand considered "Wings of flurry" till I realized today that it dazed on a reflex save... which is actually pretty rare, but the cool thing is both of those things affect: Constructs and Undead. Yea, but I'm not using save or lose. I'm just saying lose. If it has a saving throw, and does nothing even on a successful save, then I don't care to use it.


So while filling the feat hole are important, equally important is having things in your bag of tricks for immune monsters. Easily fixed via multi-purpose spells.Yes, that will be one thing I have to do...


I don't really see why you want to make such extensive use of invisible spell; if you don't want it to be visible, there are probably other options of base spells. That would save you a feat (although a potentially useful one), and leave more room for something like arcane thesis or practiced metamagic.

As for you sample spell, Obscuring mist might not be the best of choices, unless you plan to skedaddle out of the area very quickly.

Friendly Fire Isn't... so yes, care will be taken to avoid hurting allies...

Arcane Thesis only works on a single spell... I'm not sure that's the best thing for this build.

[Zaq]

So . . . Wightocalypse LCB on a much lower and saner scale? I approve, sir. The Fell X feats are some of my favorites as well (especially on no-save spells, the most obvious being Sonic Snap and Magic Missile), so applying them to a wider range of spells seems like a grand old time. I'll be watching this with some interest.

Cloudy Conjuration might be fun, but that would involve either going Wizard (Conjurer) instead of Sorcerer or blowing yet ANOTHER feat on SF: Conjuration. Still, it's a nice no-save debuff, even if they can just move out of it (of course, if they do so, they spent an action, so that's a victory for you). Dazzling Illusion is another no-save debuff you can tack on, though obviously the return is hardly worth the investment.

EDIT: Also, Coercive Spell and Deafening Spell (both from DotU) are similar to the Fell X line in that they say "any creature who takes damage from this spell . . ." with no save.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So . . . Wightocalypse LCB on a much lower and saner scale? I approve, sir. The Fell X feats are some of my favorites as well (especially on no-save spells, the most obvious being Sonic Snap and Magic Missile), so applying them to a wider range of spells seems like a grand old time. I'll be watching this with some interest. Sort of like LCB, but more combat-centric rather than game-breaking-centric.

You have a good point about Sonic Snap and Magic Missile, although the latter allows SR. Good idea, since you may want to pick out certain targets, and you can always Take 10 on your caster level check.


Cloudy Conjuration might be fun, but that would involve either going Wizard (Conjurer) instead of Sorcerer or blowing yet ANOTHER feat on SF: Conjuration. Still, it's a nice no-save debuff, even if they can just move out of it (of course, if they do so, they spent an action, so that's a victory for you). Dazzling Illusion is another no-save debuff you can tack on, though obviously the return is hardly worth the investment. Yea, I looked at those as well, but Cloudy Conjuration requires that you summon something, and this build is about putting the dice away, so that wouldn't work too well for him.


EDIT: Also, Coercive Spell and Deafening Spell (both from DotU) are similar to the Fell X line in that they say "any creature who takes damage from this spell . . ." with no save.

I like Deafening Spell, 20% spell failure chance is always made of win, and the penalty to initiative is also stellar Coercive, however, isn't so good, since you aren't using anything with a Will save.

[Zaq]

Sort of like LCB, but more combat-centric rather than game-breaking-centric.

You have a good point about Sonic Snap and Magic Missile, although the latter allows SR. Good idea, since you may want to pick out certain targets, and you can always Take 10 on your caster level check.

Yea, I looked at those as well, but Cloudy Conjuration requires that you summon something, and this build is about putting the dice away, so that wouldn't work too well for him.



I like Deafening Spell, 20% spell failure chance is always made of win, and the penalty to initiative is also stellar Coercive, however, isn't so good, since you aren't using anything with a Will save.

Actually, both MM and SS allow SR, but honestly, I don't think "EVERY SPELL MUST BE SR: NO" is a necessary policy. As long as you have a few good SR-ignoring spells, there's no reason to shut off your other choices. I'm sure you're already aware of Hail of Stone as a no-save, no-SR platform for this sort of thing.

Cloudy Conjuration works on any conjuration spell, not just summons. "When you cast a conjuration spell, you can choose to have a 5-foot radius cloud of sickening smoke manifest . . ." Again, feat-intensive, but it's still an automatic debuff.

As for Coercive Spell . . . I say it's party-dependent. Just because you're not using Will saves doesn't mean no one else is. Also, I can't tell, are you including spells that have effects on a successful save (you know, Reflex Half or Will Partial)? Or just no save? If the former, Coercive Spell's still good. (Also, if you're going for the former, Unsettling Enchantment can kick in.)

In a similar vein, Green Dragon Lineage is a no-save-allowed debuff to a Will save, but 1) it takes yet more feats, 2) if Coercive Spell didn't interest you, this probably won't either, and 3) it's an SLA (or maybe a supernatural, I forget), so you can't Fell X it. Still, worth throwing out there, even if you don't use it.

I wonder if an Artificer might be better for this. It would probably come online earlier, rather than waiting for Incantatrix to kick in.

[dextercorvia]

If you use Raging Flame from SpC, then you can use Blistering Spell instead of Flash Frost. The benefits are:

1. Medium Range

2. 30' radius spread

3. Snow Casting is no longer required as a feat. (Also, this means you aren't toting so much snow.)

4. Blistering Spell doesn't force Balance checks, so there are fewer dice involved.

5. Searing Spell is the same cost as Piercing Cold.


I would still recommend Arcane Thesis. Nothing beats it for getting metamagic costs to 0.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you use Raging Flame from SpC, then you can use Blistering Spell instead of Flash Frost. The benefits are:

1. Medium Range

2. 30' radius spread

3. Snow Casting is no longer required as a feat. (Also, this means you aren't toting so much snow.)

4. Blistering Spell doesn't force Balance checks, so there are fewer dice involved.

5. Searing Spell is the same cost as Piercing Cold.


I would still recommend Arcane Thesis. Nothing beats it for getting metamagic costs to 0.

You... have an idea...

In fact, this seems to be the best way of going about doing things. I shall update my OP to reflect this.

[dextercorvia]

Spark of Life (SpC) gets you around Undead immunities, but it has some drawbacks. (Cleric or Druid spell, Touch attack, Will negates, SR: Yes).

[Madcrafter]

I agree that artificer may work wonderfully for the build, but as for the idea of never using dice, you would have to keep making UMD rolls until you are high enough to take 10 (13th level). You are however circumventing the problems of feat intensiveness and metamagic reduction, after level 7.

[peacenlove]

It seems like Pathfinder has a seething hatred about absolute defences. Thanatopic spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/thanatopic-spell-metamagic) bypasses any immunities / protective magic that would hinder your death effects, negative levels, and energy drain. Originally from a 3.5 source, namely Osirion.

Also if you use Pathfinder, there is concussive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/concussive-spell-metamagic), threnodic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/threnodic-spell-metamagic) (enables [mind-affecting] to undead, solving enchantments school direst problem), lingering (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/lingering-spell-metamagic) (gives duration to instantaneous spell, I am sure hardcore optimizers will find a way to abuse it), Flaring (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/flaring-spell-metamagic) (Dazzles ... meh), Disruptive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/disruptive-spell-metamagic) (Forces concentration checks), Rime (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/rime-spell-metamagic) (entangles) and Toppling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/toppling-spell-metamagic) (free trip attempt).
Certainly a wealth of status effect inducing and / or immunity piercing metamagic effects.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Of course, you could always add Irresistable Spell (+4) from Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide. Obscure source, but it lets you remove the save from a spell entirely. :smallbiggrin:

[Kaeso]

Souns like an intersting build, but it raises one question for me:
do effects like fell drain apply to the reserve feats as well? If so, we're looking at a very powerful build. Boost your attack roll, fire off an acidic splatter and you can incapacitate an opponent without ever wasting a single spell.

[Cieyrin]

Souns like an intersting build, but it raises one question for me:
do effects like fell drain apply to the reserve feats as well? If so, we're looking at a very powerful build. Boost your attack roll, fire off an acidic splatter and you can incapacitate an opponent without ever wasting a single spell.

I don't believe you can metamagic reserve feats.

[Retech]

Alternatively, steal from Pathfinder. In Pathfinder, level 0 spells can be cast repeatedly using the same slot, without expending the spell.

So random spell + enough metamagic reducers + magical lineage (which does not say that you can reduce the spell level to below the original) = infinite castings of spell, which could be combined with fell drain and other stuff to give a consistent use debuff.

[dextercorvia]

Of course, you could always add Irresistable Spell (+4) from Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide. Obscure source, but it lets you remove the save from a spell entirely. :smallbiggrin:

Obscure or 3rd Party?

[Madcrafter]

Pretty sure Kingdoms of Kalimar wasn't third party. It had some powerful stuff in it though, like the Irresistable spell and Miser with Magic (which may have been erratad).

[Cog]

I agree that artificer may work wonderfully for the build, but as for the idea of never using dice, you would have to keep making UMD rolls until you are high enough to take 10 (13th level). You are however circumventing the problems of feat intensiveness and metamagic reduction, after level 7.
Iron Will followed by Hardened Criminal (City of Stormreach) can get you take 10 with any one skill at level 1.

[Madcrafter]

Iron Will followed by Hardened Criminal (City of Stormreach) can get you take 10 with any one skill at level 1.

Interesting. Unfortunate that it takes two feats though, solves one problem but brings the other one right back.

[Cog]

Iron Will is available via Otyugh Hole, though you'll probably have to wait past first in that case.

[Talya]

A week or so ago I looked for a save or lose that was reflex based and I could only come up with "Murderous Mist" though honestly I hand considered "Wings of flurry" till I realized today that it dazed on a reflex save...


Crushing Sphere (Lost Empires of Faerun) is essentially a save-or-lose reflex based spell. However, if your opponent is not vulnerable to non-lethal damage, it won't do anything other than trap him in a force bubble for level*rounds. (Which isn't a terrible result, but a 4th level Resilient Sphere would do the same thing.)

Reflex or be trapped in a force bubble, which constricts, doing 3d6 non-lethal damage every turn. If the target falls unconscious, it begins doing lethal damage.

[Seerow]

Pretty sure Kingdoms of Kalimar wasn't third party. It had some powerful stuff in it though, like the Irresistable spell and Miser with Magic (which may have been erratad).

Unless Wizards of the Coast renamed themselves to Kenzer and Company, then that source is 3rd party.

And if the feat you mentioned is for real, I'm glad. Seriously, remove the saving throw from any spell? +4 spell levels isn't THAT big a change. Toss that on anything with any sort of metamagic reduction and you it's absolutely ridiculous.

[Claudius Maximus]

Kingdoms of Kalamar is in the same category as the non-DLCS Dragonlance books, in that they really look like official D&D books and even use the label, but are not in fact 1st party.

I'd put them with Dragon Magazine in therms of officialness, but Dragon is much more likely to be accepted at a table.

[NNescio]

Crushing Sphere (Lost Empires of Faerun) is essentially a save-or-lose reflex based spell. However, if your opponent is not vulnerable to non-lethal damage, it won't do anything other than trap him in a force bubble for level*rounds. (Which isn't a terrible result, but a 4th level Resilient Sphere would do the same thing.)

Reflex or be trapped in a force bubble, which constricts, doing 3d6 non-lethal damage every turn. If the target falls unconscious, it begins doing lethal damage.

Bands of Steel, 3rd-level Conjuration Spell, Target is immobilized or entangled (essentially a suck-or-lose). The SpC version is a little less explicit on what "immobilized" means, 'though the CM version specifically notes it as "immobilized (helpless)".

Using ToM's definition of the "immobilized" condition leads to absurd conclusions though, since it would be better for the target to deliberately fail their save.

[ArcanistSupreme]

So, other than obscuring mist, what would this guy's spell list look like? I'm assuming fun stuff like cloudkill (although this only works if it's maximized, I guess) and force cage, but is there anything more creative/obscure that would fit the theme well?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, other than obscuring mist, what would this guy's spell list look like? I'm assuming fun stuff like cloudkill (although this only works if it's maximized, I guess) and force cage, but is there anything more creative/obscure that would fit the theme well?

Any area-effect spell fits the bill, really. With the metamagic mixup, anything with an area effect can be set up to deliver damage, fear, and negative levels.

The fire themed version, though, only uses a single 1st level spell: Raging Flame. That makes it easier to abuse Arcane Thesis to pull this off at +0 level adjustment.

[Zaq]

Any area-effect spell fits the bill, really. With the metamagic mixup, anything with an area effect can be set up to deliver damage, fear, and negative levels.

The fire themed version, though, only uses a single 1st level spell: Raging Flame. That makes it easier to abuse Arcane Thesis to pull this off at +0 level adjustment.

Also much less interesting, though, since you go from "caster with a distinctive but widely-applicable gimmick" to "caster with one major trick."

[Urpriest]

Also much less interesting, though, since you go from "caster with a distinctive but widely-applicable gimmick" to "caster with one major trick."

You're still a caster. Probably the rest of the spell loadout would be utility and buffs.

A question presents itself: are there any area spells that are naturally swift actions? Maybe on the duskblade list?

[ArcanistSupreme]

Any area-effect spell fits the bill, really. With the metamagic mixup, anything with an area effect can be set up to deliver damage, fear, and negative levels.

The fire themed version, though, only uses a single 1st level spell: Raging Flame. That makes it easier to abuse Arcane Thesis to pull this off at +0 level adjustment.


Also much less interesting, though, since you go from "caster with a distinctive but widely-applicable gimmick" to "caster with one major trick."

Not to mention the fact that you have a ton of spells known left over. Are you set on not having to roll attack rolls or allow saving throws OR do you just want no dice involved during your turns period?

[Cieyrin]

Not to mention the fact that you have a ton of spells known left over. Are you set on not having to roll attack rolls or allow saving throws OR do you just want no dice involved during your turns period?

Would this mean auto taking 1 on initiative and auto-failing saves, too, then? :smalltongue:

[ArcanistSupreme]

Would this mean auto taking 1 on initiative and auto-failing saves, too, then? :smalltongue:

I did specify during your turn, but that would make things more fun if you could just refuse to roll dice altogether.

[dextercorvia]

Hail of Stone is another good seed. We would need to Maximize it to avoid rolling anything, but Fell Drain, etc can be applied directly.

[Cog]

I did specify during your turn, but that would make things more fun if you could just refuse to roll dice altogether.
If you're willing to take a minor hit to power to accomplish that goal, a dip into Warblade or Swordsage for the Diamond Mind saves, combined with a way to take 10 on your Concentration checks, could take care of some of that.

Now we just need to find a way to handle initiative and hit dice...

[dextercorvia]

Now we just need to find a way to handle initiative and hit dice...

Sorcerers have d4 HD, so Frail flaw, and Quick Trait get you most of the way there. Is there anything else (besides a con penalty) that makes you lose a HP from your HD?

[Cieyrin]

Sorcerers have d4 HD, so Frail flaw, and Quick Trait get you most of the way there. Is there anything else (besides a con penalty) that makes you lose a HP from your HD?

That's really all you need, as both of those can reduce your HD to 0, so Con 6 or lower makes you get 0 hp on level up. In the desperate quest for not rolling dice in a dice game, you can go everywhere with 0 hp and are eternally disabled! (The Surgeon General does not recommend you do this if you expect to live past level 1).

[ArcanistSupreme]

That's really all you need, as both of those can reduce your HD to 0, so Con 6 or lower makes you get 0 hp on level up. In the desperate quest for not rolling dice in a dice game, you can go everywhere with 0 hp and are eternally disabled! (The Surgeon General does not recommend you do this if you expect to live past level 1).

I say forget the frail flaw and just get your Con down to 4. You actually end up with more HP that way.

[dextercorvia]

But if we can find one more reducer, then we still don't have to roll You will always get 1 + Con Bonus. We don't want a low con. HP are still nice to have.

[ArcanistSupreme]

But if we can find one more reducer, then we still don't have to roll You will always get 1 + Con Bonus. We don't want a low con. HP are still nice to have.

Frail and quick both make a "0" HD possible, so you'd actually need two more reducers to completely eliminate dice. What about legacy weapons? Or a graft somewhere?

[dextercorvia]

Frail and quick both make a "0" HD possible, so you'd actually need two more reducers to completely eliminate dice. What about legacy weapons? Or a graft somewhere?

Too true. I wasn't thinking about that. I checked WoL, none of them lose HP consistently. I don't have any of the graft books.

[Tyndmyr]

Ive only read the OP, so apologies if someone beat me to it...but the negative level kill thing has already been done.

It involves force missile mage to bypass immunities to magic missile, fell drain for the negative levels, and the usual splitting techniques to increase the amount of spells to a truly ludicrous level.

The biggest problem is, of course, immunity to negative levels...not a great deal of ways to avoid that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ive only read the OP, so apologies if someone beat me to it...but the negative level kill thing has already been done.

It involves force missile mage to bypass immunities to magic missile, fell drain for the negative levels, and the usual splitting techniques to increase the amount of spells to a truly ludicrous level.

The biggest problem is, of course, immunity to negative levels...not a great deal of ways to avoid that.

Force Missile Mage is Dragon Mag content, which I avoid using.

However, the real key here is avoiding needing to use dice to resolve combat. No saving throws, no damage dice, no SR, and using a feat to Take 10 on Caster Level checks.

[Chess435]

Admittedy, this is a nice build. One thing though that's good at getting around stuff like this though is Iron Heart Surge. Do you have a backup plan for when Mr. Warblade comes a-knocking?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Admittedy, this is a nice build. One thing though that's good at getting around stuff like this though is Iron Heart Surge. Do you have a backup plan for when Mr. Warblade comes a-knocking?

Stacking effects so he never gets a chance? You're spamming a 1st level spell here, with Spellsurge, Arcane Fusion, and all the other ways to cast multiple spells in one turn, you're dropping a BUNCH of overlapping effects. It's kind of hard to initiate a maneuver when you are unable to take any actions...

[Chess435]

Stacking effects so he never gets a chance? You're spamming a 1st level spell here, with Spellsurge, Arcane Fusion, and all the other ways to cast multiple spells in one turn, you're dropping a BUNCH of overlapping effects. It's kind of hard to initiate a maneuver when you are unable to take any actions...

Oh, okay then. Just hope they don't have a counter readied. Never mind.

[Claudius Maximus]

Hail of Stone is another good seed. We would need to Maximize it to avoid rolling anything, but Fell Drain, etc can be applied directly.

Seconding this. Other than maybe complete damage immunity or a readied/immediate action, escaping this spell is nearly impossible. Pretty sure it doesn't suffer from the physical damage nerf CPsi threw onto the crystal powers either. So yeah, nice seed for shenanigans if you're looking for unavoidability.

[Seerow]

Is there a reverse maximize spell feat out there somewhere? I remember seeing something to that effect once, but it may have been a homebrew creation. But taking a damaging spell and reducing it to minimum damage just to avoid rolling dice seems like something right up this guys' alley if it is possible.

[ArcanistSupreme]

So I just read raging flame, and from what I can tell it just augments fire damage in it's area. Sure, Blistering Spell adds 2 points of fire damage, but shouldn't that just apply to the damage from fire it augments? Am I missing something that let's it affect creatures?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So I just read raging flame, and from what I can tell it just augments fire damage in it's area. Sure, Blistering Spell adds 2 points of fire damage, but shouldn't that just apply to the damage from fire it augments? Am I missing something that let's it affect creatures?

Blistering Spell deals 2 damage to every creature in the area, regardless of the effects of the spell itself. Energy Substitution (fire) would allow you to put Blistering Spell on a spell that deals no damage at all.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Blistering Spell deals 2 damage to every creature in the area, regardless of the effects of the spell itself. Energy Substitution (fire) would allow you to put Blistering Spell on a spell that deals no damage at all.

I'm not seeing that language in the PHB II. It says "an extra 2 points of fire damage per level of the spell." To me that means it applies to the damage it normally deals, not that it creates an alternate source of damage from the spell. Sure, I could see it working for obscuring mist if it had the fire descriptor, but that's because it doesn't already have a source of damage. To me, it's like applying Blistering Spell to fireball and saying that it deals the xd6 points of fire damage and the 2 points of fire damage separately.
EDIT: Or saying that diminish plants would affect non-plant creatures if Blistering Spell were applied to it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm not seeing that language in the PHB II. It says "an extra 2 points of fire damage per level of the spell." To me that means it applies to the damage it normally deals, not that it creates an alternate source of damage from the spell. Sure, I could see it working for obscuring mist if it had the fire descriptor, but that's because it doesn't already have a source of damage. To me, it's like applying Blistering Spell to fireball and saying that it deals the xd6 points of fire damage and the 2 points of fire damage separately.
EDIT: Or saying that diminish plants would affect non-plant creatures if Blistering Spell were applied to it.

The part where it says 'in addition to the spell's normal effect' makes it pretty clear that it does damage, in addition to (which means separate from) it's normal effect.

[Cieyrin]

Force Missile Mage is Dragon Mag content, which I avoid using.

Actually, Force Missile Mage is in the Dragon Compendium, so unless you don't think that's legit either...

[JKTrickster]

Scorching Spell, Blistering Spell, and the spell Raging Flame from SpC. Since we're only using one spell, we may now use Arcane Thesis to great effect.

Not sure what you're talking about here. Do you mean Energy Sub (Fire)?

EDIT: Then again that makes no sense since Raging Flame is already a fire spell.

[dextercorvia]

Not sure what you're talking about here. Do you mean Energy Sub (Fire)?

EDIT: Then again that makes no sense since Raging Flame is already a fire spell.

He meant Searing Spell from Sandstorm (unless I have the name wrong). +1 metamagic, that makes some fire damage irresistible.

[Tokuhara]

Searing Spell bypasses Fire Immunity and Fire Resistance IIRC. Essentially, take their resistance (Immunity counts as 100) and cut it in half.

Personally, this build seems to take the risk out of the game, which on an optimization stand-point is good.

[Vandicus]

Searing Spell bypasses Fire Immunity and Fire Resistance IIRC. Essentially, take their resistance (Immunity counts as 100) and cut it in half.

Personally, this build seems to take the risk out of the game, which on an optimization stand-point is good.

Fire resistance is bypassed entirely, not cut in half, and immunity to fire doesn't count as 100 resistance, it counts as infinite resistance.

*EDIT

Also, when and only when being used against the fire immune, it does half damage outright.

[Tokuhara]

Fire resistance is bypassed entirely, not cut in half, and immunity to fire doesn't count as 100 resistance, it counts as infinite resistance.

*EDIT

Also, when and only when being used against the fire immune, it does half damage outright.

My bad. AFB right now. I meant for "damage" dealt by a Searing Spell against a fire-immune critter treats his Immunity as a 50% resistance

[Tyndmyr]

Force Missile Mage is Dragon Mag content, which I avoid using.

However, the real key here is avoiding needing to use dice to resolve combat. No saving throws, no damage dice, no SR, and using a feat to Take 10 on Caster Level checks.

It's also been published in Dragon Compendium...but the no dice thing has come up as well, in a different topic. Wish I could remember the title, but entirely diceless has been done.

[Endarire]

Death ward makes the affected creature immune to negative energy.

[Acanous]

Hmm...There IS that Knight class feature that makes you not-auto-fail a save on a one, and then there's the spell Ruin Delver's Fortune...

Might need some way to incorporate those, if you *Really* don't want to roll dice. :p

[ArcanistSupreme]

The part where it says 'in addition to the spell's normal effect' makes it pretty clear that it does damage, in addition to (which means separate from) it's normal effect.

The "in addition" line only applies to the additional effect that comes into play when the target fails its saving throw, which doesn't come into play here. It says nothing about affecting additional targets. I'm not trying to be difficult, I honestly am just not understanding the interpretation.

[Zaq]

Here's another toy we can add to the pile: Entangling Spell, from Champions of Ruin.

Of course, that means that we need more metamagic reducers (it's a +2), and we need to find yet another feat somewhere . . . I hate to admit it, but the DCFS is looking better and better.

[sreservoir]

Here's another toy we can add to the pile: Entangling Spell, from Champions of Ruin.

Of course, that means that we need more metamagic reducers (it's a +2), and we need to find yet another feat somewhere . . . I hate to admit it, but the DCFS is looking better and better.

could dip a bit of dweomerkeeper, though that might lose a few feats.

hell, going dweomerkeeper 10 then incantatrix 4 isn't necessarily a bad idea, though it does lose a few feats.

[JKTrickster]

The "in addition" line only applies to the additional effect that comes into play when the target fails its saving throw, which doesn't come into play here. It says nothing about affecting additional targets. I'm not trying to be difficult, I honestly am just not understanding the interpretation.

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure this is the main argument against the LCB as well. For me, I just understand it as the spell deals "0 damage" to anyone in the area and "2 extra damage" is tacked on to the "0 damage" it does.

Cause honestly spells don't have a specific "damage component" so its not like 2 extra damage has no effect if it deals no damage.... (that's how I interpret it).


Death ward makes the affected creature immune to negative energy.

That's easy enough if Arcane Mastery lets you take 10 for Caster level checks for dispels.

[sreservoir]

what was the result of that discussion about maximizing dispels for auto-20 on dispel checks?

[JKTrickster]

what was the result of that discussion about maximizing dispels for auto-20 on dispel checks?

See it would totally work if the PHB didn't explicitly rule it out for some strange reason.

I mean the srd makes no mention of it, but the PHB does. And honestly, its own reasoning makes no sense whatsoever. But ehh its WoTC...

[Acanous]

there are things high enough that a 20 wouldn't dispel, but eh.

as for the extra damage: You need two metamagic feats to cause a non-damaging spell to deal 2 damage in an area. As a DM, I'd let it pass.
After all, Metamagic is supposed to be the character twisting the standard magic to better suit his ideas, and paying for it by the spell being harder to cast (Higher slot level). It seems to work in RAW, it is arguable in RAI, and honestly, if this is the character's schtick, I don't see why not.

spells that state they only affect one type of thing, however, would only deal the damage to that type of thing :p

[ShneekeyTheLost]

there are things high enough that a 20 wouldn't dispel, but eh. Not many of them, and not many of them are actually relevant. The only things you need to dispel are things which make them immune to you. Since you are already bypassing most immunities, there really isn't much need to worry about it.


as for the extra damage: You need two metamagic feats to cause a non-damaging spell to deal 2 damage in an area. As a DM, I'd let it pass.
After all, Metamagic is supposed to be the character twisting the standard magic to better suit his ideas, and paying for it by the spell being harder to cast (Higher slot level). It seems to work in RAW, it is arguable in RAI, and honestly, if this is the character's schtick, I don't see why not.

spells that state they only affect one type of thing, however, would only deal the damage to that type of thing :p

Blistering Spell states it does 2 damage/spell level in addition to the normal effect, to everything in the spell's area. Therefore, if you use, for example, Obscuring Mist as the baseline. In addition to it's normal effect (concealment), it deals 2 damage (because it is a 1st level spell) to everything in it's area. Which then triggers Fell Drain and Fell Frighten.

[Thespianus]

Would I be mistaken if I said that it seems that the 4th level spell Lesser Globe of Invulnerability stops the UPS guy dead in his tracks, at least with respect to his Fell Drain-trick? I mean, he's still a caster, so he'll have other tricks up his sleeve, but the main point with the build would be negated by Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, right?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Would I be mistaken if I said that it seems that the 4th level spell Lesser Globe of Invulnerability stops the UPS guy dead in his tracks, at least with respect to his Fell Drain-trick? I mean, he's still a caster, so he'll have other tricks up his sleeve, but the main point with the build would be negated by Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, right?

Heighten Spell is a wonderful thing...

[Thespianus]

Heighten Spell is a wonderful thing...

It sure is, buuuut... It's not included in the OP and you already said it was a feat-intensive build. ;-)

Gotta say I love it, though. Very sweet idea.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It sure is, buuuut... It's not included in the OP and you already said it was a feat-intensive build. ;-)

Gotta say I love it, though. Very sweet idea.

The fire-based build is less feat intensive, it doesn't need Snowcasting to add the [Cold] descriptor. Heighten Spell should just be able to slip in the gap :smallwink:

[ArcanistSupreme]

Blistering Spell states it does 2 damage/spell level in addition to the normal effect, to everything in the spell's area. Therefore, if you use, for example, Obscuring Mist as the baseline. In addition to it's normal effect (concealment), it deals 2 damage (because it is a 1st level spell) to everything in it's area.

Actually, there is absolutely no mention in the text of Blistering Spell of areas. I will concede that it would work with obscuring mist simply because there is no other way for it to possibly deal damage, but with something like raging flame that already has a source of damage and specific targets (those hit with flame in the area), I think that you are giving too much credit to Blistering Spell.

As a DM, I'd allow it just because it's pretty cool and not too powerful, but from a RAW standpoint I'd say it's on very shaky ground.

[JKTrickster]

Actually Raging Flame has no targets Arcanist. The preexisting spell effect may only target flames, but the spell is itself is only a 30 ft. area. It wouldn't make sense for the "2 extra damage" to apply only to the flames it normally effects then, right?

[Greylond]

Kingdoms of Kalamar is in the same category as the non-DLCS Dragonlance books, in that they really look like official D&D books and even use the label, but are not in fact 1st party.

I'd put them with Dragon Magazine in therms of officialness, but Dragon is much more likely to be accepted at a table.

Technically, 3.x Kingdom of Kalamar books ARE Official D&D rule books even though they are not produced by WOTC. That was part of the license deal that WOTC and Kenzer&Co had. If you notice all but the very late KoK books had the "Official D&D" logo on them, K&Co eventually took the logo off on their own as the license was about to end. They are the only RPG books produced by someone other than WOTC that are "Official D&D."

[dextercorvia]

Technically, 3.x Kingdom of Kalamar books ARE Official D&D rule books even though they are not produced by WOTC. That was part of the license deal that WOTC and Kenzer&Co had. If you notice all but the very late KoK books had the "Official D&D" logo on them, K&Co eventually took the logo off on their own as the license was about to end. They are the only RPG books produced by someone other than WOTC that are "Official D&D."

I believe the term for this is 2nd party.

[Acanous]

what's the build looking like per level? Anyone have Table-Fu as a class skill?
I'm trying to envision taking one of these guys from 1-20 without ever rolling a die, and it's rather difficult.

[dextercorvia]

Human Sorcerer5/Incantatrix10/DreadWitch4 at minimum

Feats start like:

F:Versatile Spellcaster
F:Searing Spell
H:Fell Drain
1:Arcane Mastery
OH:Iron Will
3:Blistering Spell
6:Arcane Thesis:Raging Flame
9:Rapid Metamagic

I don't have Incantatrix, so I don't remember how many bonus metamagic feats they get, but that is when you add in Fell Frighten, Repeat spell, Quicken Spell, Maximize Spell, Heighten Spell...

At level 1, you are throwing out Fell Drain Sonic Snaps. By level 6 your core trick is up and running. At 9 you can toss out 2 of them per round using Arcane Fusion, and another one Quickened. Somewhere after you get Fell Frighten is where you mix in your four levels of Dread Witch. If you find you need damage, you can drop a Maximized Hail of Stone -- it isn't much, but you can still Fell X it.

[Claudius Maximus]

Technically, 3.x Kingdom of Kalamar books ARE Official D&D rule books even though they are not produced by WOTC. That was part of the license deal that WOTC and Kenzer&Co had. If you notice all but the very late KoK books had the "Official D&D" logo on them, K&Co eventually took the logo off on their own as the license was about to end. They are the only RPG books produced by someone other than WOTC that are "Official D&D."

That same logo shows up on a lot of other stuff that usually wouldn't fly as 1st party though. I'm pretty sure you'll find it on the 3.5 Ravenloft book, for example.

[sjeshin]

Blistering Spell deals 2 damage to every creature in the area, regardless of the effects of the spell itself. Energy Substitution (fire) would allow you to put Blistering Spell on a spell that deals no damage at all.

The blistering spell does not say that. It says that is causes the spell to deal extra fire damage. I don't see how you can justify that as everyone in the area takes damage. RAW it says a blistering spell deals extra fire damage. I'm having trouble buying into this one was well. I don't think raging flame will accomplish this for you. I just read an explaination about it being an area spell. The words anyone thinking like I was are missin is the section in the PHB that talks about area of effect spells. I can't quote it specifically right now, but it says that everything in the area is effected by the spell. The spell doesn't need / gain / have damage sources it simply applies all of its effects to the area.

[Vincent Dragon]

This list can be useful:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8913.0