Monk it up.

[Garetek]

So we have completed one campaign with out game master who is moving and going onto the next. Me and a buddy of mine had a great idea of running a pair of monks. And we were wondering about helpful builds for them. Only ecl 4 since it's.a new gamemaster.

Please and thanks in advance.

[sonofzeal]

Obligatory question:

Do you want to play the "Monk" class specifically? Or do you just want martial artists all up inz?

[Garetek]

Either or. I have been playing for a while, but got a new guy who has only played a barbarian.

[tyckspoon]

Hmm. Do you have any sense of what power level the group and/or gamemaster is comfortable with? And banned/commonly used books? You're gonna get everything from actual Monk to Whirling Frenzy Pouncebarian to Unarmed Swordsage, and they're all quite distinctly different power levels while fitting (somewhat different) archetypes of martial artists.

[ericgrau]

Staff monk w/ oil of shillelagh for damage + TWF sai disarming monk (under the interpretation that the sais designed to disarm are actually good at disarming). Also make the staff monk str focused and also good at grapple damage while the sai monk is dex focused and can stunning kick in addition to disarms. Naturally only for humanoid-filled campaigns. "Donatello" + "Raphael" :smalltongue:

Btw, a core monk should never go unarmed if that's what you play. Use them sometimes when required, fine, but generally it's weaker than masterwork/magical weapons. If you want unarmed damage, look elsewhere.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Tome of Battle. Unarmed swordsage can be a great monk. Flurry of blows? Flashing Sun/Wolf Fang Strike. Fast movement? Wind Stride (which is kinda weak)/Sudden Leap. Overcoming DR and eventually hardness? Mountain Hammer. Abundant step? Shadow Jaunt/Shadow Stride/Shadow Blink/Sudden Leap. It can't replicate all the monk's abilities, but it adds some other thematic stuff like the ability to toss your opponent away by using leverage.

[sonofzeal]

Either or. I have been playing for a while, but got a new guy who has only played a barbarian.
The thing to be aware of then is that the "Monk" class is, while cool, one of the hardest classes in the game to make effective. Getting the Monk class to be competitive with even an average group is going to take some serious system mastery. Unfortunately, most of the good alternatives can be a bit complicated. Here's a few:


Fighter or Barbarian chassis - potentially much better at punching things in the face, but keeping them alive without armor is hard. There's a lot of ways of attempting this though. Find a Prestige Class that lets you add some other stat to your AC, there's quite a few out there.

Tashalatora PsiWar/Ardent - requires a feat from "Secret of Sarlona", and uses psionics. It allows you to piggyback pretty much all of the Monk class's good features onto a psionic class of your choice. Psi is a great system, and the result is pretty awesome, but if nobody in your group uses it then learning might be tough.

Unarmed Swordsage - requires Tome of Battle. Easier to learn than psionics but a little more controversial in many groups. The good news is, it's very difficult to make a weak Swordsage, and you also aren't likely to seriously break the game either; they're pretty consistent in power regardless of your skill making characters.

Vow of Poverty Monk - IT'S A TRAP! Or it will be, at higher levels. A Monk with VoP can have pretty huge AC early on in the game, when there's few options for that and where the things you seriously miss out on (notably flight) aren't common anyway. If your campaign is only going up to 7th level or so I might consider this; beyond that, and magic items are just too huge.

[Gavinfoxx]

So tell us what you think of when you say martial artists?

What are the sorts of things you see the character doing? Be as specific as you can, please. Fighting unarmored? Fighting with fists? Fighting with lots and lots of fast attacks? High in combat mobility? Fighting with crappy weapons that look like peasant farm tools and not sucking at those weapons? Ranged attacks? Ki like powers? Throwing tiny bits of steel? Elemental powers that help melee fighting? Throwing bolts of energy? Jumping and balancing on clouds, tiny tree limbs, water (wire fu stuff)? Fighting with Jian type thin well balanced swords? Summoning weapons from thin air? Being part of a monastery? Being an ascetic? Mastery over body and mind? Someone who is competent at melee without lots of overt and large magic items? Someone who is competent at melee without ANY magic items at all (this is very very difficult, just fyi)?

How overtly supernatural do you want the character to be? How 'realistic'? What types of superpowers, if any, do you see your character having? If you can name an archetype in reality or literature or fiction that fits your character concept, please do so.

What books do you have available to you?

How powerful in general do you want to be in a straight up fight? How powerful do you want it to be out of fights and as far as making the world submit to his will?

[SiuiS]

Btw, a core monk should never go unarmed if that's what you play. Use them sometimes when required, fine, but generally it's weaker than masterwork/magical weapons. If you want unarmed damage, look elsewhere.

really? I haven't compared monk progression to WBL, so I can't say one way or another... Where can I find out more about this? Or is it just that a +1 weapon is mathematically better than a monk fist of one damage die bigger (plus DR and incorporeality)?

[Garetek]

Side note...must be good at beating up dragons.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Side note...must be good at beating up dragons.

Giantbane feat.

Climb up the dragons and beat them to death with your fists.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Wait wait wait. I bet the op level of your group is low enough that you don't have to avoid the monk class. Optimizing a straight monk should give you just enough power for your group, but you'll have to optimize. Alternatively, you could play USS and pick whatever sounds cool, including Skill Focus: Underwater Basketweaving, but it's up to you.

[ericgrau]

really? I haven't compared monk progression to WBL, so I can't say one way or another... Where can I find out more about this? Or is it just that a +1 weapon is mathematically better than a monk fist of one damage die bigger (plus DR and incorporeality)?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888911&postcount=20
The monk gets his d10s at level 8 at about the time even a longsword is doing 1d8+1+1d6. Or heck a monk weapon will do 2d6+1. Even before that point the +1 attack bonus from a masterwork weapon is really helpful. By the time a monk hits 2d6 damage at level 12 a monk weapon would do 3d6 (e.g., holy quarterstaff). Etc.

Use monk weapons, use monk bonus feats. If you only want kung fu, you're looking at the wrong class. Monk unarmed strikes are primarily for stunning fist and grapple damage; you know that feat you get at level 1. And even stunning fist can be done with a ki focus weapon at high levels. It's actually not a bad tradeoff; sure the chance of stunning isn't the greatest but you only lose a little damage to attempt it free of charge action-economy-wise. But gimping the damage on all your attacks when only one is a stun? Nonononono.

EDIT: Dragons? Monks aren't the greatest against huge creatures due to size bonuses against all their special attacks and/or fort saves, though it can be done. I think you might want something else. Or a really tweaked out permanent enlarge and so on for your grapples / trips. Or TWF flurry dragonbane / dragonbane quarterstaff, but now you need a way to raise your lousy attack bonus thanks to that -4 penalty.

[Gavinfoxx]

So are you going to answer some of the questions for more details like the ones I asked, and some other people asked about? It will REALLY HELP narrow things down.

[SiuiS]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888911&postcount=20
The monk gets his d10s at level 8 at about the time even a longsword is doing 1d8+1+1d6. Or heck a monk weapon will do 2d6+1. Even before that point the +1 attack bonus from a masterwork weapon is really helpful. By the time a monk hits 2d6 damage at level 12 a monk weapon would do 3d6 (e.g., holy quarterstaff). Etc.


Makes sense. No worries; I don't use monk for anything other than a lark myself. A player who's trying to work on optimization basics was asking me about weapons for monks earlier today, so I couldn't pass up a chance to ask.

Poor monk. Nobody loves you.

[TOZ]

{Scrubbed}

[Telonius]

Pair of Monks, in a two-person campaign? This sounds like a job for the Fist brothers! (Enlightened and Sacred, that is). One almost full-casting Wizard, and one almost full-casting Cleric, Monk themed. Should be able to handle most of what the DM throws at you.

[ericgrau]

Makes sense. No worries; I don't use monk for anything other than a lark myself. A player who's trying to work on optimization basics was asking me about weapons for monks earlier today, so I couldn't pass up a chance to ask.
Most monk weapons also have boosts to special attacks to look into. Again, assuming the actual intent behind a bonus was to be a bonus. For example -5 or -10 secondary attacks are good for making kama trip attempts, since these are touch attacks. At low levels shillelagh oil is good on quarterstaffs. Shurikens make a good backup (but not primary) ranged weapon for a melee strength character. Also good for overcoming DR, and for packing bane shurikens for the right situations.

[byaku rai]

Don't make God cry. Use this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) monk. It's amazing.

[Garetek]

Sorry for the late reply. I was thinking of some kind of unarmored fighter with a simple weapon tree. Nothing super exotic just a balanced skillful fighter with some cool abilities.

[Luckmann]

3.5 only, or is PF permitted?

Because if you can, use the PF monk. Never use the 3.5 monk.

Edit: I don't want to hijack, but I have a monk-related question if someone can answer it.

Can Flurry of Blows be used with ranged weapons?
Monk/Gunslinger gestalt, anyone?

[Gavinfoxx]

Sorry for the late reply. I was thinking of some kind of unarmored fighter with a simple weapon tree. Nothing super exotic just a balanced skillful fighter with some cool abilities.

What do you mean 'simple weapon tree' and 'super exotic' and 'cool abilities'? Like I said, my original post with the specific list of questions could help you be more precise.

This one post:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11484257&postcount=8

Is the one I meant.