Building an unarmed damaged Swordsage

[Chrisaigrim]

I m considering playing Swordsage with unarmed attacks than Monk
What do you say?
Who would make the best damage?
Who would be the best?
If so, im going to play it with full unarmed damage no spell casting wizard or sorcerer and psion
like a true kung fu fighter !! :smallbiggrin:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Unarmed swordsage is better than monk. First, the stupid "lawful" requirement is gone, so you can play a pure brawler (goliath swordsage FTW). Second, maneuvers can do what most of the monk's class features do, and they do it better. Third, two attacks as a standard action from wolf fang strike, full attack after moving with sudden leap.

For your damage, get superior unarmed strike to count as for levels higher for the purpose of damage, and get improved natural attack. Your damage die just increased two sizes.

[Divide by Zero]

Also get the feat Snap Kick. It's like Flurry of Blows, but better.

[Tokiko Mima]

I m considering playing Swordsage with unarmed attacks than Monk
What do you say?
Who would make the best damage?
Who would be the best?
If so, im going to play it with full unarmed damage no spell casting wizard or sorcerer and psion
like a true kung fu fighter !! :smallbiggrin:

I have a fondness for warlocks, so I'm going to recommend unarmed variant Swordsage with up to 6 levels of warlock and the Beast Strike(DrM) and Eldritch Claw(DrM) feats. You get some of the base warlock abilities, which are awesome for recreating wuxia type stuff Swordsage doesn't cover, like ranged energy blasts, teleporting outside of line of sight, and/or flight. Plus, you do insane amounts of unarmed damage (double base + eldritch), which you can increase via magic items that improve eldritch blast or unarmed damage.

It works even better if you can get your DM to modify Jade Phoenix Mage PrC to be more warlock friendly in it's class abilities and prerequisites. :smallsmile:

[Hiro Protagonest]

I have a fondness for warlocks, so I'm going to recommend unarmed variant Swordsage with up to 6 levels of warlock and the Beast Strike(DrM) and Eldritch Claw(DrM) feats. You get some of the base warlock abilities, which are awesome for recreating wuxia type stuff Swordsage doesn't cover, like ranged energy blasts, teleporting outside of line of sight, and/or flight. Plus, you do insane amounts of unarmed damage (double base + eldritch), which you can increase via magic items that improve eldritch blast or unarmed damage.

It works even better if you can get your DM to modify Jade Phoenix Mage PrC to be more warlock friendly in it's class abilities and prerequisites. :smallsmile:

Didn't you hear what he said!? It had to be pure Kung Fu dude! Shadow hand already does the teleports, and tiger claw already does the leaps! He wants to destroy his enemies with physical power!!! :smallfurious::smallbiggrin:

[Iferus]

An unarmed, damaged swordsage is pretty easy. Hug monsters and taunt villagers. And then, just before you die, flee. Repeat.

[Chrisaigrim]

thx a lot for posting !!:smallsmile::smallsmile:
im going for swordsage then !!
i think human race might be good.
but i playing for the first time swordsage and i dont now how to build him.
am i going for full lvl swordsage ?
:smallsmile:Remember:smallsmile:
"It had to be pure Kung Fu i wants to destroy me enemies with physical power!!! "
like Swiftmongoose said. I think you got me!!:smallbiggrin:

Plz recommend me a solid Build for good damaged

[Tokiko Mima]

Didn't you hear what he said!? It had to be pure Kung Fu dude! Shadow hand already does the teleports, and tiger claw already does the leaps! He wants to destroy his enemies with physical power!!! :smallfurious::smallbiggrin:

What does class/PrC's have to do with overall character style and theme? If you're doing wuxia supernatural kung fu things like teleportation, does it matter what the mechanics of the character build where you get that ability?

The primary reason to multiclass warlock is of course to supercharge your unarmed damage. As it stands, it's not very impressive, even with a monk's belt and Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack feats. But doubled and with eldritch dice, it's suddenly a lot less laughable.

And besides, as is endlessly repeated to all warlocks who try and qualify for arcane PrC prerequisites: warlocks have no spell casting ability or any ability to cast spells of any level, barring an obscure Eberron PrC.

[Cieyrin]

And besides, as is endlessly repeated to all warlocks who try and qualify for arcane PrC prerequisites: warlocks have no spell casting ability or any ability to cast spells of any level, barring an obscure Eberron PrC.

Not quite accurate, as Warlocks can qualify via CL requirement, just not the ability to cast a certain level of spell or a specific spell, even if there's an invocation that duplicates it. Unfortunately, that only really appears in Complete Arcane and Complete Mage, most other books don't consider Warlock entrants. :smallannoyed:

Again, I'd recommend Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlocks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159708) for wuxia-locks, which is a nice resource for alternatives to supernatural martial arts to unarmed swordsages.

[Urpriest]

To actually answer the OP's question:

Swordsage is pretty easy. While some maneuvers are better than others, few are actually bad. Look through your options and pick stuff you find cool. Look ahead a little for cool things to get in future, and make sure you have prerequisites for them.

A few things to think about: with Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade you can have Dex to attack and damage with your Unarmed Strikes, meaning that you won't need Str. You could also go for a more Str-heavy build, which would give you worse defenses but more feats free. Snap Kick is great for either build. Take Adaptive Style at first level so you can recover your maneuvers in combat if you need to, since otherwise it takes a long-ish time.

In terms of maneuvers, you're probably going to like Setting Sun, Diamond Mind, and Tiger Claw, since they're the most "pure kung fu". You really will be fine just picking ones that look cool.

[Soranar]

Unarmed swordsage lets you qualify for shadow blade very easily so you could go for a DEX based build.

That way all you need is DEX WIS and some CON.

With that in mind

Race: human
alignment: any chaotic

STATS (32 pts buy)

STR 8
DEX 16 (main stat)
CON 16
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 8

2 flaws

1 Barbarian (for pounce), take the ferocity alternate class feature to get +4 to DEX and STR when you rage, Weapon finesse, aberration blood, inhuman reach, improved natural attack
2 Swordsage
3 Swordsage Shadow Blade Wis to AC in light armor
4 Swordsage
5 Swordsage Wis to Damage while in a shadow stance
6 Swordsage

You won't be a kung-fu fighter for 1 level but barbarian gives you pounce and the 1 BAB necessary to take weapon finesse (starting swordsage wouldn't let you take weapon finesse otherwise).

You have reach 10 ft with any weapon (including your unarmed attacks, although you look like a freak but that's normal for a kung-fu guy, just look at the ninja scroll villains)

You use your DEX as a bonus to attack and damage and you can even rage to increase it when necessary. (you might want to scream in a high pitched whoooaaa when you do)

Other than that it's unlikely you'll reach a level high enough to warrant taking anything else than swordsage.

[The Glyphstone]

a splash of Mountain Hammer's not bad for kung-fu either, if you're looking for the 'tiny little master shatters stack of bricks barehanded'...or if you just want to punch your way through an adamantine vault door. It's also where the grappling-based abilities are, though Setting Sun handles the jujitsu-esque throws and dodges.

[Cieyrin]

build

But you miss out on x6 skill points at 1st level that way. :smallwink:

Plus by taking your 1st level as Swordsage, you can start with Shadowblade, since it doesn't have a BAB requirement and then either pick up Weapon Finesse at 3rd or dip Swashbuckler or Fighter at 2nd for it.

[Soranar]

But you miss out on x6 skill points at 1st level that way. :smallwink:

Plus by taking your 1st level as Swordsage, you can start with Shadowblade, since it doesn't have a BAB requirement and then either pick up Weapon Finesse at 3rd or dip Swashbuckler or Fighter at 2nd for it.

Barbs get x4 skillpoints, so you lose 2 skillpoints, not a huge deal. They also have decent skills to choose from.

You'll do more damage with weapon finesse than shadow blade. At level 1 even hitting something with 10 AC is tough without a decent ability modifier.

With a Barb you get 1 BAB +3 from dex (and another +2 from the ferocity rage). So you land a blow on a 6 or a 4 while out of rage.

With a swordsage you get 0 BAB and -1 from STR (assuming the same stat distribution.

[Cieyrin]

Barbs get x4 skillpoints, so you lose 2 skillpoints, not a huge deal. They also have decent skills to choose from.

You misunderstand, Swordsage by RAW gets (6+Int) x6 skill points at 1st, while everybody else gets (x+Int) x4. While clearly a typo, it's still an amusing one. :smallbiggrin: 36 vs. 16 before Int is a big difference. :smallwink:


You'll do more damage with weapon finesse than shadow blade. At level 1 even hitting something with 10 AC is tough without a decent ability modifier.

With a Barb you get 1 BAB +3 from dex (and another +2 from the ferocity rage). So you land a blow on a 6 or a 4 while out of rage.

With a swordsage you get 0 BAB and -1 from STR (assuming the same stat distribution.

Hitting things at 1st level is more chance than skill, so I wasn't that worried about it. Swordsage gets Weapon Focus for free at 1st, too, so that makes up for BAB at least. Sapphire Nightmare Blade or Shadow Blade Technique can also significantly help accuracy and, with Shadow Blade, ensure that hits hurt.

[Divide by Zero]

Barbs get x4 skillpoints, so you lose 2 skillpoints, not a huge deal. They also have decent skills to choose from.

He was joking, referring to a typo in the swordsage table that says they get (6+Int)x6 skill points at first level, instead of the x4 that every single other base class in the game gets. At least, I assume it's a typo. They didn't say anything about it in the Complete MageToB errata, so we may never know.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As others have said, there's a lot of really good options for your Kung Fu Fighting...

For a Saotome-school 'chestnuts roasting on an open fire technique', I suggest to you the Tiger Claw discipline, which containsPouncing Strike, the various x-ing Mongoose boosts, and other muti-attack friendly maneuvers

For short-range teleportation, stealth, and walking on water/air, I recommend to you the Shadow Hand discipline.

For being able to find the chink in the armor, and focus your will to shrug off nearly any effect, and eventually be able to alter the flow of time itself, i suggest to you the Diamond Mind discipline.

For being able to have a 90 year old 5' wrinkled old man being able to shatter stone walls, I suggest Stone Dragon. At the end, it also gets a handy maneuver which does 2d6 Con damage, which is always fun.

For blazing speed, and harnessing the power of your Chi to produce flames which burn your opponents, I suggest to you Desert Wind.

For all of your Akido and Judo needs, throwing enormous enemies with ridiculous ease and using opponent's force against them, I highly suggest Setting Sun, which makes it pretty easy to be immune to melee attacks.

Some combinations which you might like:

Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade. As long as you are in a shadow hand stance, you get Dex to damage, meaning Str just became a dump stat.

Snap Kick. It's an extra attack. That you get all the time. Get it.

Stone Power + Shards of Granite. Not the best, perhaps, but ignoring the first 10 damage of every turn, plus ignoring DR and Hardness of objects is always handy. If you're one of those guys who seems supernaturally resilient and able to shatter anything you put your first through, this is how you do it.

Baffling Defense + Shifting Defense + Grandmasters Dummy. Baffling Defense lets you make a Sense Motive check to avoid an attack. Shifting Defense lets you take a 5' step every time someone misses. Grandmasters Dummy lets you move 10' with a 5' step. He swings, he misses, and you move out of the way to negate the follow-up iterative attacks.

[Cieyrin]

Baffling Defense + Shifting Defense + Grandmasters Dummy. Baffling Defense lets you make a Sense Motive check to avoid an attack. Shifting Defense lets you take a 5' step every time someone misses. Grandmasters Dummy lets you move 10' with a 5' step. He swings, he misses, and you move out of the way to negate the follow-up iterative attacks.

Sparring Dummy of the Master requires a Monk level, so going for Tumble DC 40 (Oriental Adventures) may be a little bit more desirable, as I don't see it likely he'll UMD his way though that, not without a bard using Combined Talent to get him through it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Sparring Dummy of the Master requires a Monk level, so going for Tumble DC 40 (Oriental Adventures) may be a little bit more desirable, as I don't see it likely he'll UMD his way though that, not without a bard using Combined Talent to get him through it.

What, you mean not everyone takes cross-class ranks in UMD and partially charged wands?

Oh wait... we're *NOT* playing monk... scratch that idea...

Actually, it's not all that hard. It's a DC 20 to emulate a class feature. Eventually, you'll have to get it, even with a +0 CHA mod, because eventually you'll roll a nat 20.

[Cieyrin]

What, you mean not everyone takes cross-class ranks in UMD and partially charged wands?

Oh wait... we're *NOT* playing monk... scratch that idea...

Actually, it's not all that hard. It's a DC 20 to emulate a class feature. Eventually, you'll have to get it, even with a +0 CHA mod, because eventually you'll roll a nat 20.

+0 Cha mod? that's generous, considering how many people dump Cha, so expect Cha 8 or 6. Plus, you risk rolling a 1 and not being able to work with it for a day.

I just thought of a neat little trick based on my previous post. Have 2 bards, Bard 7 and Bard 6. Bard 7 knows Combined Talent, Immediate Assistance, Eagle's Splendor, has Magic Sensitive, Melodic Casting and Song of the Heart as her feats, has a wand of Guidance. Bard 6 knows Harmonic Chorus and has Inspire Spellpower and Melodic Casting as two of his feats.

The Bard 6 Inspires Spellpower in the Bard 7 and casts Harmonic Chorus on her, which raises her CL to 9, 10 for divinations, which Combined Talent is. The Bard 7 uses her wand of Guidance on the prospective students, casts Eagle's Spendor and Combined Talent on him and then Inspires Competence into him. Combined Talent transfers 1 rank per CL, max 10 ranks, so the student gets 10 ranks of UMD, +4 Cha, +4 on the next UMD check. Assuming the worst kind of student (dwarf or half-orc with Cha 6, if just talking Core races), he has +14 UMD and a chance to reroll, due to Immediate Assistance. Talk about a tutoring session. :smallbiggrin: