How do Clerics out-heal Healer?

[Hazzardevil]

I don't see how clerics actually manage it, seeing as Healers get their cha to any healing spell for the overall healing.

[Sir Homeslice]

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

The Healer is the pound of cure, the Cleric is the ounce of prevention.

Clerics prevent damage by disabling enemies via magic or just killing them to death/redeath. Also they (can) spontaneously cast cure spells, something the Healer can't. Iirc.

[TheCountAlucard]

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

The Healer is the pound of cure, the Cleric is the ounce of prevention.

Clerics prevent damage by disabling enemies via magic or just killing them to death/redeath. Also they (can) spontaneously cast cure spells, something the Healer can't. Iirc.Yarrgh, it's true. I had one of the PCs in my game playing a Healer, and we made him a full-on spontaneous caster, and the party still would've done better with a Cleric.

:smallsigh:

I'll also note that the Cleric's access to buffs is far superior in combat than healing in its entirety. :smalltongue:

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, I think healbot clerics have more options for augmenting their healing powers than the Healer class does... I'd have to look at what those options are. Mostly stuff to do with administering their healing at range, I think?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

DMM: Chain Spell would do it, I think.

Also, do Healers get the Vigor line?

[Kantolin]

Clerics have access to a small array of feats which help them use mostly turn checks to heal better. In addition, they have a few prestige classes which help them heal even better - said classes tend to be rough on a healer to enter without some house ruling.

In addition, while +cha is a relevent number at extremely low levels, it fades entirely when you hit level say 6. Healing for 3d8+6 vs 3d8+10 isn't going to make a ton of difference. Let alone using heal, and healing for 156 instead of 150. Woo.

In addition, although this is more easily house ruled, there are several extremely potent healing spells that are not on the healer list as they're in later books, such as healing spirit (PHB2) or Darts of Life (Complete Champion). Both of these work very well with augment healing, for example, but are irritable for a healer to get at.

Not to mention, once you aim for a splatbook (Which you have to or you don't have a healer)... clerics get really useful buffs out of core. Which is a good thing, actually (buffing the party is far less Czilla than using the core righteous might). The healer is fairly poor at buffing.

Not to mention using domains to gain access to useful spells or abilities for whatever you're aiming for, generally being sturdier, and overall being more useful sans possibly a unicorn.

And finally! A cleric with the healing domain gets a +1 to caster level for heal spells, so the gap between the cleric and the healer's charisma narrows by one measly point. ^_^ This means exceptionally little, but hey.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You didn't answer his question Sir Homeslice, this is not about why the cleric is more powerful overall. This is about why the cleric is better at healing then the healer class. The cleric isn't a better healer then The Healer because of its combat abilities.

The healers have there own spell list so there spell pool is limited. They don't have access to some of the nifty healing spells that clerics and druids do.
I saw this homebrew list which expands the healers spell list to include items from the spell compendium.[here] (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=re88h7m6dd48duhedtm3d7sp15&topic=4079.0)

Really the clerics spontanious healing is a minor benefit, the best in combat healing spell is Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/heal.htm) Which is not covered by the ability. Cure spells often can't heal for more damage then the enemy is doing, so its usually not the best course of action. And out of combat the vigor spells heal more effectively then cure spells.

The healer is pure support magic, so spontaneously casting heal spells is redundent.

The only real PC use for the healer is as a cohort or if your really good at optimization and the rest of the party stinks.

[TroubleBrewing]

The only real PC use for the healer is as a cohort or if your really good at optimization and the rest of the party stinks.

Or spamming Gate at level 20.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just combine the two updated spell lists in those two threads -- the one that is in the first link, and the one that is linked in that thread. At least for the books you have. Then you'd have a Healer with a good, solid, useful spell list.

[Sir Homeslice]

You didn't answer his question Sir Homeslice, this is not about why the cleric is more powerful overall.

But I did. The Cleric is a better healer because in addition to its ability to spontaneously cast Cure spells (allowing the Cleric a wider range of versatility to prevent damage from being taken or to solve problems in which damage would be taken without taking damage in the first place), it's also a good combatant, meaning it helps to mitigate damage dealt before it's even dealt, which is, in essence, a form of healing. The Healer is designed to be reactive in a game where being proactive offers the greater benefit.

[Lord Vukodlak]

But I did. The Cleric is a better healer because in addition to its ability to spontaneously cast Cure spells (allowing the Cleric a wider range of versatility to prevent damage from being taken or to solve problems in which damage would be taken without taking damage in the first place), it's also a good combatant, meaning it helps to mitigate damage dealt before it's even dealt, which is, in essence, a form of healing. The Healer is designed to be reactive in a game where being proactive offers the greater benefit.

By that logic the wizard is a good healer, Say for a moment the cleric has Vow of Peace and can't do harm to others. Then explain why the cleric is a better healer.

[TroubleBrewing]

By that logic the wizard is a good healer, Say for a moment the cleric has Vow of Peace and can't do harm to others. Then explain why the cleric is a better healer.

Because the Cleric can still buff and remove threats without beating them to death. Charm Monster, for example. Blindness/Deafness.

Hell, Dispel Magic makes a pretty good example.

EDIT: To attempt to further answer the OP's question, I feel like I should provide this link. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29) It's good reading for anyone considering the "dedicated healer" role.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Because the Cleric can still buff and remove threats without beating them to death. Charm Monster, for example. Blindness/Deafness.

Hell, Dispel Magic makes a pretty good example.

EDIT: To attempt to further answer the OP's question, I feel like I should provide this link. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29) It's good reading for anyone considering the "dedicated healer" role.
Now that is an explanation.

[TroubleBrewing]

It's pretty much what Homeslice said, but with specifics. He had it right from the start.

[Lord Vukodlak]

It's pretty much what Homeslice said, but with specifics. He had it right from the start.


I was actually refering to dispel magic, a fatal flaw in the healers support ability, and the clerics ability to buff up allies.

[Cruiser1]

and overall being more useful sans possibly a unicorn.Clerics get a Unicorn too! :smallbiggrin: Just use Miracle to duplicate casting Valiant Steed (BoED) and call a Unicorn (or a Pegasus if you prefer) that will serve you for a year for free. If it dies, just cast the spell again right away to get another one. (Unlike the real Healer that has to wait 30 days with a -4 penalty to attack and damage rolls!)

[The Random NPC]

There is also a PRC that lets all spells cast from the healing domain get empowered and maximized for free, add in the Domain Casting AFC, and you have much, much more than you could ever have with +Cha.

[Psyren]

Clerics can prepare anything and still heal.

Healers have to prepare healing spells to heal, making them useless if anything else is needed.

Any questions?

[Greenish]

Clerics get a Unicorn too! :smallbiggrin: Just use Miracle to duplicate casting Valiant Steed (BoED) and call a Unicorn (or a Pegasus if you prefer) that will serve you for a year for free.Valiant Steed is a Sanctified spell, exalted good clerics can cast it spontaneously, if they wish.

[Talya]

The mistake being made in the OP is the assumption that combat healing is a necessary or even desirable role. Combat healing is for emergencies only. D&D is not an MMO with dedicated tanks and healers. If you have to heal a party member in combat, things have already gone badly. This is why Clerics convert spells to heals spontaneously - they probably never use this feature in combat, but in an emergency, they can.

If you really want to play a class who's primary role is simply combat healing, Healer isn't a bad choice. It's simply a bad role.

You really want to play a healer with a unicorn? Play a druid. Summon Nature's Ally VI gives you 2-to-5 unicorns worth of spell-like-ability cures. :smalltongue:

Edit: that's (1d4+1)*(5d8+20) per casting, and then they still fight for you. For a level 6 spell, that's almost the equal of the spell "Heal" (average 148.75 healing per casting compared to 150), but far more controllable with regard to spreading it out, plus a unicorn is a reasonable combat threat.

[TheRinni]

There is also a PRC that lets all spells cast from the healing domain get empowered and maximized for free, add in the Domain Casting AFC, and you have much, much more than you could ever have with +Cha.

Which PrC is this? I'm interested.

[TheCountAlucard]

Which PrC is this? I'm interested.Radiant Servant of Pelor.

[TheRinni]

Radiant Servant of Pelor.
Damn. I was hoping it was something else for my non-pelor-serving favored soul. Anyways, thanks for the answer.

[Psyren]

Damn. I was hoping it was something else for my non-pelor-serving favored soul. Anyways, thanks for the answer.

The adaptation lets you use it with any deity with the Sun domain, and there's quite a few of them out there (including pantheons.)

[Eldariel]

To actually answer the question, Clerics have:
- Domains that can add to your caster level for healing, qualify you for Radiant Servant, and can fuel feat chains.
- Turn Undead fuels divine feats. Divine Metamagic (Twin Spell, Chain Spell, Repeating Spell, Quicken Spell, whatever) and Divine Spell Power outdo Healer's options pretty squarely.

Now, with judicious multiclassing it is possible for a Healer to get access to both (basically, you dip Sacred Exorcist and Contemplative to dive into Radiant Servant) and actually match a Cleric in terms of healing (eventually, tho Cleric is ahead for most of the levels).

Of course, Cleric can use those same levels to do a billion other things while still matching Healer since Cleric needs no multiclassing for any of that. And Cleric can heal in AMFs if built for it. While evoking said AMF. And yeah, provides defensive spells that mitigate damage which tends to trump healing in efficiency quite vastly. And if Healer does multiclass for DMM/DSP and RSoP, he loses out on his only real class feature (Unicorn).


@Rinni: Radiant Servant can be adapted to any deity with Sun-domain, really. Always worth asking at the very least. It's in Complete Divine.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Also, do Healers get the Vigor line?

Spell Compendium tells you to add spells to the Healer list that are "concerned with healing, removing affliction, providing protections, and providing for needs. In particular, add higher-level versions of spells the healer can already cast, such as mass restoration."

So while it isn't on their printed list, yes they do.

--------------

Making the Healer a Warmage style spontaneous caster is a nice improvement for them (though it doesn't help the overall issues related to healing). Then take a level of Combat Medic from Heroes of Battle to give all your Healing spells a Sanctuary effect.

[Zaq]

Also, Clerics can get Imbued Healing, and Healers can't (at least not without dipping into Contemplative or something). Not exactly the only reason why Clerics are better, but definitely adding insult to injury.