The cleric and the gish

[Kaeso]

No, this is not some twisted DnD-inspired fairytale (though, to be honest, that'd be frickin awesome) nor a 'which one is better' thread. I'm asking you for advice in a current game.

I'm currently playing an ongoing campaign with a friend of mine (who is the DM, but also has a DMPC that serves as a companion for my PC). I'm currently playing a DMM:Persist Divine Power cleric, whereas my friend plays a Gish. We're both 8th level now, making my character a Cleric3/Church Inquisitor 5 and his a Fighter1/Wizard5/Eldritch knight 2. I'm planning to enter the contemplative PrC, while my friend is planning to enter the abjurant champion PrC.

There is however, one thing that bothers me. As we've just reached level 8, we've just reached the level where DMM: Persist Divine Power becomes usable. I'm afraid that I will very much outshine my friend. I'm sure that some of you will say "But you're both playing tier 1 classes, yours is just better built and he should deal with it" but let me repeat this: my friend. I want both of us to have fun, and he's entitled to bash brains in as much as I am.

This is why I turn to you, playground. I'd like to ask you nothing more than the following: what should my friend do to raise his Gish to a power level equivalent to a DMM: Persist cleric of the same level? It should be worth noting that my friend wants to focus mostly on blasting, (self)buffs and melee, but he has no qualms against a handful of battlefield controll or debuff spells (I've once shown him how effective grease can be and now he's a believer :smalltongue:).

EDIT: Our equipment for now: we're both equipped with demonic greatswords with yet unknown properties, I have a +1 full plate of quickness and my friend has a +1 full plate with an assortment of enhancements that allow him to wear it with 0% ASF. I also have a ring of jumping and a bracelet of shielding (a houseruled variant of the ring of shielding), combined with an elbow blade from complete scoundrel.

[Cieyrin]

I'm not really seeing a major issue at the moment, considering that if your DM is keeping track, there should be enough heads to crack to satisfy you both. Him going Abjurant Champion should work out fine power-wise, though if he wants some specific power boosts he should pick up Arcane Strike (http://realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Arcane_Strike) and consider Spellsword and Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4), which is essentially Eldritch Knight with actual class features. It's 9/10 casting, which may be a turn-off but it's still rather nice.
Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will. :smallsmile:

[Kaeso]

I'm not really seeing a major issue at the moment, considering that if your DM is keeping track, there should be enough heads to crack to satisfy you both. Him going Abjurant Champion should work out fine power-wise, though if he wants some specific power boosts he should pick up Arcane Strike (http://realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Arcane_Strike) and consider Spellsword and Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4), which is essentially Eldritch Knight with actual class features. It's 9/10 casting, which may be a turn-off but it's still rather nice.
Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will. :smallsmile:

I've shown him the knight phantom, but he doesn't really like it. Our game is merely Core, PHB II and all the completes, though I might convince him to use spell compendium (though I doubt it). Arcane strike might be good, but is it really worth it to sacrifice a spell slot for a meagre bonus to damage?

[Coidzor]

Why would he not want access to great spells? :smallconfused:

[Kaeso]

Why would he not want access to great spells? :smallconfused:

:smallconfused: To be honest I don't know, I think it's because he has to learn a completely new book? I've convinced him to use ToB before, despite the fact that he believed it was too overpowered and complicated, so perhaps I can change his mind about spell compendium as well.

[erikun]

Well, you are getting a whopping +2 BAB, so I assume that is not the problem. The +6 enhancement bonus to Strength is more likely to be the deal breaker. Is it possible to persist two spells, and thus give him Bull Strength all day? That should allow you to avoid outperforming him as much, at least until Righteous Might comes into play.

[Douglas]

what should my friend do to raise his Gish to a power level equivalent to a DMM: Persist cleric of the same level?
That is just one of the questions you should be asking. There's also "what can you (as the DMM cleric) do to boost both of you at once?"

Some of the best DMM (Persist) spells affect multiple people. For example, Recitation and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, both from Spell Compendium. Also Mass Lesser Vigor, but I'd recommend not bringing that one up unless you're confident your DM is ok with unlimited out of combat healing.

Edit: All three spells I mentioned are also in Complete Divine, though Righteous Wrath of the Faithful was altered significantly in Spell Compendium.

[BIGMamaSloth]

you know in all honesty I thought this thread was going to be some weird roleplaying game version of "the joker and the thief". :smallbiggrin:

[Groverfield]

Argent Savant boosts abj ACs like the AbC PrC. You don't get the BaB progression though. Another PrC he should look at is initiate of the sevenfold veil.

[Cieyrin]

I've shown him the knight phantom, but he doesn't really like it. Our game is merely Core, PHB II and all the completes, though I might convince him to use spell compendium (though I doubt it). Arcane strike might be good, but is it really worth it to sacrifice a spell slot for a meagre bonus to damage?

Because Arcane Strike lasts the round, not just 1 attack. If he picks it up at 9th, sac a 4th level spell for +4/+4d4 across 2-3 of your attacks (depending on whether you Haste or not) means 8d4 to 12d4, which isn't that bad, honestly.

Speaking of Haste, I seem to have forgot Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327). The CL loss hurts but, damn, the features are amazing! The PrC has good break points at the CL losses, so it's nice to consider for dips if you don't want to go all the way.

[Ernir]

I'm afraid that I will very much outshine my friend.

I'd be surprised.

Yeah, persistent DP means you're going to be rocking a cool number on your attack and damage rolls. A fighter might cry. But the DMPC is on a Wizard casting progression, which means he does have tricks of his own.

He lost two levels of spellcasting. That sucks, because that makes his tricks trickle in more slowly. It's still a quantitative difference, not a qualitative one like the one represented by the tier system. You learn Divine Power, he learns Stinking Cloud or whatever. You learn Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, he learns Polymorph. And so on.

In other words, I'm saying that "you're both playing tier 1 classes, yours is just better built and he should deal with it", with the addition that there shouldn't be all that much to "deal with". :smalltongue:

[Anderlith]

Duskblade. & maybe a few levels in Wizard/Sorcerer

[NeoSeraphi]

Because Arcane Strike lasts the round, not just 1 attack. If he picks it up at 9th, sac a 4th level spell for +4/+4d4 across 2-3 of your attacks (depending on whether you Haste or not) means 8d4 to 12d4, which isn't that bad, honestly.

Speaking of Haste, I seem to have forgot Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327). The CL loss hurts but, damn, the features are amazing! The PrC has good break points at the CL losses, so it's nice to consider for dips if you don't want to go all the way.

Glad I decided to reload the thread, I was very nearly swordsage'd by this post. The Swiftblade PrC allows the wizard to literally slice through people like butter. (At blinding speeds). Also, haste boost is particularly useful for two-person parties.

Now, I assume you don't want any help for your own character, but just in case you do, you might want to include which deity you worship, your alignment, and your domain selection in the OP. Moving on...

The wizard and the cleric differ in many ways, because the cleric can survive in battle without buffing himself to extremes, while the wizard has the spells necessary to buff into extremes. Therefore, with Divine Power persisted, you can use more of your spell slots to support both you and your friend, while he is selfishly focused on buffing himself (Not really his fault, most of the wizard spells have a range of personal)

No access to the SpC hurts you a bit (Mass Conviction is a fantastic and horribly underrated spell), but you still have shield other and vigor, which can turn you into the damage soaker in the party so your wizard friend doesn't need to worry about defensive spells so much. (Though to be honest, displacement goes much farther than full plate in any given situation, and having them both is just even better).

As for your friend's PC itself, access to the fly spell would grant him a significant advantage. See if you can convince him to take Flyby-Attack as a feat, as that would make him a soaring all powerful angel (he would need a lance, obviously).

[Cieyrin]

No access to the SpC hurts you a bit (Mass Conviction is a fantastic and horribly underrated spell), but you still have shield other and vigor, which can turn you into the damage soaker in the party so your wizard friend doesn't need to worry about defensive spells so much. (Though to be honest, displacement goes much farther than full plate in any given situation, and having them both is just even better).

I think the OP is willing to use it, it's the gish's player that seems unwilling.


As for your friend's PC itself, access to the fly spell would grant him a significant advantage. See if you can convince him to take Flyby-Attack as a feat, as that would make him a soaring all powerful angel (he would need a lance, obviously).

Lances only double when you're mounted. Otherwise, Flyby-Attack is still an awesome feat, even if you don't get double damage that simply.

[NeoSeraphi]

Lances only double when you're mounted. Otherwise, Flyby-Attack is still an awesome feat, even if you don't get double damage that simply.

Having a fly speed allows you to make a dive attack, which does double damage if you're wielding a piercing weapon. (It's also a charge, so Flyby Attack doesn't work for it, but it still is a good finishing move and can be very flavorful)

[Coidzor]

:smallconfused: To be honest I don't know, I think it's because he has to learn a completely new book? I've convinced him to use ToB before, despite the fact that he believed it was too overpowered and complicated, so perhaps I can change his mind about spell compendium as well.

That's kind of odd. He doesn't have to learn a completely new system or a complete book. Unless he's got some technique whereby he's able to cast from all spell lists. :smallconfused:

It's like the back of the PHB that's filled with spells, only an entire book worth of them, of which there are a significant number of sorcerer/wizard ones, sure, but, gah....

[FMArthur]

Having a fly speed allows you to make a dive attack, which does double damage if you're wielding a piercing weapon. (It's also a charge, so Flyby Attack doesn't work for it, but it still is a good finishing move and can be very flavorful)

Actually, that's only for claw and talon attacks. Raptoran and Dragonborn are the ones that get it with all piercing weapons.

Conceivably you could actually be one of those two races and redundantly ride a flying mount to benefit from all of the lance, spirited charge and dive attack multiplication at once.

[Petrocorus]

I think there are magic item that will let him persist his own buff.


He can look on the Knowledge Devotion feat, which work well for wizard and is less expensive to use than Arcane Strike.

[Kaeso]

I think there are magic item that will let him persist his own buff.


He can look on the Knowledge Devotion feat, which work well for wizard and is less expensive to use than Arcane Strike.

Yeah, I recommended it to him, he wanted to take weapon focus instead. He's really pleased with it, he has take one rank in all knowledges and is maxing out knowledge (arcana) so he's guaranteed to have at least +1/+1 on attack and damage in every combat.

[Flickerdart]

If he can swing War Weaver, he can drop an entire suite of buffs on himself as a move action. However, War Weaver is not a front liner's PrC, so he'll need the buffs even more...

[Petrocorus]

Another solution for him is to enter Sacred Exorcist at lvl 10.

Then he will be able to DMM: persist also.
The Wiz spell list hasn't Divine Power or Righteous Might but Bull's Strength, Haste and many other spell are very good to persist.

[Darth_Versity]

+1 for getting Swiftblade, but it is web material (although it was designed for Complete Mage) so checking with the DM is the first hurdle.

If he can retrain his 2 eldritch knight levels into Swiftblade then he would really start to rock, and combined with abjurant champion he would be kicking ass.

All attacks and spells against him would have a 50% miss chance, he'd get excellent bonuses to speed, attack, AC and Ref and the abilty to use 2 standard actions a round.

Something like Fighter 1/ Wizard 5/ Swiftblade 3/ Abjurant Champion 2/ Swiftblade +7/Abjurant Champion +2 would work wonders.

By lvl 11 he could cast Haste as a free action, and Shield and Greater Luminous Armor as swift actions, leaving a Standard Action to attack with Weapon of spell.

And if your worried that you'll still outshine him on the Attack/Damage side, look at the Wraithstrike/Power Atack Combo. That can get real nasty with only a little optimisation.

[NeoSeraphi]

By lvl 11 he could cast Haste as a free action, and Shield and Greater Luminous Armor as swift actions, leaving a Standard Action to attack with Weapon of spell.


I like the rest of your post, but this part I'm not so sure about. The OP says they're wielding demonic greatswords, so I don't think the wizard is a good-aligned character (which makes Sanctified Spells like greater luminous armor a non-option)

And I didn't know that only Raptorans and Dragonborn got dive attacks with all piercing weapons. That makes me sad. And I must apologize for the incorrect information then.

[DoctorGlock]

Not only dragonborn and raptorans. In "The Rules of the Game" archive, wizards stated that any creature with a fly speed can deal double damage with a piercing or slashing weapon on a diving charge

"Flying creatures can use the charge action. A flying charge must be in straight line and most cover at least 10 feet (2 squares). A flyer can charge while diving, but not while gaining more than 5 feet altitude (unless the flyer has perfect maneuverability and can climb without losing speed).

If a flyer makes a diving charge of at least 30 feet (6 squares) and also loses 10 feet of altitude or more, it can attack only with a claw or with a piercing or slashing weapon. These attacks, however, deal double damage."

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a

[NeoSeraphi]

Not only dragonborn and raptorans. In "The Rules of the Game" archive, wizards stated that any creature with a fly speed can deal double damage with a piercing or slashing weapon on a diving charge

"Flying creatures can use the charge action. A flying charge must be in straight line and most cover at least 10 feet (2 squares). A flyer can charge while diving, but not while gaining more than 5 feet altitude (unless the flyer has perfect maneuverability and can climb without losing speed).

If a flyer makes a diving charge of at least 30 feet (6 squares) and also loses 10 feet of altitude or more, it can attack only with a claw or with a piercing or slashing weapon. These attacks, however, deal double damage."

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a

Ah, that's what I thought, though I never knew the part about slashing weapons. So there's a suggestion for your gish friend.

[Kaeso]

Not only dragonborn and raptorans. In "The Rules of the Game" archive, wizards stated that any creature with a fly speed can deal double damage with a piercing or slashing weapon on a diving charge

"Flying creatures can use the charge action. A flying charge must be in straight line and most cover at least 10 feet (2 squares). A flyer can charge while diving, but not while gaining more than 5 feet altitude (unless the flyer has perfect maneuverability and can climb without losing speed).

If a flyer makes a diving charge of at least 30 feet (6 squares) and also loses 10 feet of altitude or more, it can attack only with a claw or with a piercing or slashing weapon. These attacks, however, deal double damage."

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a


Interesting, I'll suggest that to my friend. He uses a greatsword (slashing weapon), so this could work.

Out of curiosity, does this also work for air walk? Technically it's not flying, but merely walking on air, so it's a bit dubious.

[NeoSeraphi]

Interesting, I'll suggest that to my friend. He uses a greatsword (slashing weapon), so this could work.

Out of curiosity, does this also work for air walk? Technically it's not flying, but merely walking on air, so it's a bit dubious.

According to the text of the spell, it would be hard to pull off (you can't do a straight 90' drop down on the target). So I wouldn't imagine so. Even if you can charge in a 45' angle, I don't imagine you'd get the necessary momentum that's required to make it as powerful as a mounted charge or a dive.

Edit: Just to be clear:

RAW: A character may only deal double damage from a mounted charge or a dive attack. The text of air walk treats the character as if he were standing on solid ground. Therefore, he receives no bonus damage from a charge attack.

RAI: A little more leeway here, but I'm still not convinced. After all, it's kind of like your character is just charging from the top of a hill. There aren't really any bonuses for charges made from a height difference. So I don't know how it would work out, but I'd be inclined to say "no". You're still only building up as much momentum as your feet will allow.

[Cieyrin]

You can specifically train mounts to Air Walk, so you could do a Air Walking mounted charge but that's still not the same as a dive.