Best Wizard Spells for a Paladin 3.5

[spiderfate]

My paladin of Mystra has the sword of the arcane order feat which lets him take wizard spells in paladin slots. my dm has ruled that these wizard spells are subject to the battle blessing feat which allows you to caste any stardard action spell as a swift action. what wizard spells do you suggest i take for this character? thanks.

all non world specific and forgotten realms books are allowed.

[Retech]

Grease, Color Spray, Glitterdust, Fly, Invisibility. All the mainstays of the Wizard spell list.

[Eldariel]

What level are you?

Either way, the buffs are probably of most interest to you:
- Enlarge Person
- True Strike
- Ray of Enfeeblement
- Mirror Image
- Invisibility
- Alter Self
- Displacement
- Haste
- Polymorph (lol, Hydra Paladin)
- Greater Invisibility

and the usual stuff if you get out of Core (Greater Mirror Image, Celerity, Lesser Celerity, Wraithstrike, Greater Mighty Wallop, etc.)

[spiderfate]

What level are you?

Either way, the buffs are probably of most interest to you:
- Enlarge Person
- True Strike
- Ray of Enfeeblement
- Mirror Image
- Invisibility
- Alter Self
- Displacement
- Haste
- Polymorph (lol, Hydra Paladin)
- Greater Invisibility

and the usual stuff if you get out of Core (Greater Mirror Image, Celerity, Lesser Celerity, Wraithstrike, Greater Mighty Wallop, etc.)

im level 8 now but i like having a game so upto 4th

[Eldariel]

im level 8 now but i like having a game so upto 4th

In general, don't:
- Pick spells with important caster level scaling. Your Pally CL is going to be pretty sad.
- Pick spells that do nothing on a successful save, unless you have obscene (the level of a full caster) casting stat.
- Pick spells with HD limitations (since you get them later).

In addition to the ones I listed, you definitely want:
- Nerveskitter
- Benign Transposition
- Greater Slide
- Silent/Minor/Major Image
- Sonic Weapon
- Anticipate Teleportation
- Create Magic Tattoo
- Web

Basically all from Spell Compendium (except Web/Image, obviously). There's also some stuff that could e.g. buff Grapple if you feel like it.

[Soranar]

Are they still arcane spells? Cause you'll get ASF in full plate if they are (and I assume a paladin wears armor). Don't forget you need INT to cast those spells too, not WIS.

[ericgrau]

Swift action?!?
0 (if you get level 0, ignore otherwise): Flare if you ever fight drow, open/close to get through doors that much faster
1: shield (if you don't have a shield), true strike*, [empowered] ray of enfeeblement*, expeditious retreat assault, maybe jump
2: web, invisibility, bull's strength
3: fly, blink, haste*

I'm going to recommend against many of the typical spells mentioned that are caster level or save DC dependent. Web is on the list b/c it's still nice even on a passed save. Starred items are nutso as a swift and I can't recommend them enough.

Consider lots of scrolls of utility spells too. Comprehend languages, see invisibility, spider climb, etc., etc.

[gallagher]

would certain illusions count against his paladin code, for acting without honor? ask your DM, because tricking someone during combat might count as dishonorable

[Pyrophilios]

Just because I read it a minute ago:
Fist of Stone from SC is a very nice first level spell:
Duration: 1 minute
+6 strenght enhancement
+a natural slam attack with 1d6 dmg

should be fun with battle blessing

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Whirling Blade!

Shield, Benign Transposition, and True Strike are probably some of your best choices for 1st level spells. Power Word: Pain is also pretty good, especially Extended. Get a Lesser Rod of Extend for spells like Wraithstrike, and take Practiced Spellcaster asap.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

would certain illusions count against his paladin code, for acting without honor? ask your DM, because tricking someone during combat might count as dishonorableThis reminds me of the debates I had in high school over whether sneak attack could be used by a lawful character. Is there an alignment description? Is stabbing someone in the face more lawful than stabbing someone in the kidneys?

The same logic applies here. A Paladin is not a Knight. If it's just to kill someone, they can pretty much go about it by whatever non-evil means they have. If a Paladin has a flanking buddy he's not going to fall for catching a foe off-guard. The same goes for protecting himself with mirror images.

To look at it another way, if the Paladin had an ability that made him shine like a Marty Stu beacon such that no foe could strike him, and few could defend against him, it would be a (lame) example of paladinly combat. But it's basically the same effect as Greater Invisibility. The only difference is one fits the trope better.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

This reminds me of the debates I had in high school over whether sneak attack could be used by a lawful character. Is there an alignment description? Is stabbing someone in the face more lawful than stabbing someone in the kidneys?

The same logic applies here. A Paladin is not a Knight. If it's just to kill someone, they can pretty much go about it by whatever non-evil means they have. If a Paladin has a flanking buddy he's not going to fall for catching a foe off-guard. The same goes for protecting himself with mirror images.

To look at it another way, if the Paladin had an ability that made him shine like a Marty Stu beacon such that no foe could strike him, and few could defend against him, it would be a (lame) example of paladinly combat. But it's basically the same effect as Greater Invisibility. The only difference is one fits the trope better.

It really depends on the 'culture' of your gaming group how you feel about this. I do, however, think that there is a difference between 'hitting where it hurts' and plain 'deceiving your foe'. I personally can imagine a paladin having sneak attack and using it in a honorable way. You don't hide in a corner and ambush your foes, but in a combat situation in which your foe has to divide his focus (i.e. is flanked) you hit him where it hurts. Why not? You are there to kill the monster dead :smallsmile:.

Using invisibility or other illusions for that matter, is straight dishonest....deception, trickery. I can imagine one feeling that is not very paladin-ish. I have built and played a few paladin/sorcerer characters and they would never, ever, have spells such as invisibilty.

[tyckspoon]

Using invisibility or other illusions for that matter, is straight dishonest....deception, trickery. I can imagine one feeling that is not very paladin-ish. I have built and played a few paladin/sorcerer characters and they would never, ever, have spells such as invisibilty.

While I can certainly *imagine* a Paladin who interpreted his code as such, I wouldn't enforce it on a player who felt differently. There's no universal standard for what 'acting with honor' means, especially when the activity you are nominally 'cheating' at is a fight to the death. Especially because if you start thinking of magic as a code transgression, then you really lose the whole point of Sword of the Arcane Order.. using magic against foes that don't have spellcasting themselves is pretty much the most hugely unfair thing you can do within the rules of D&D.

[spiderfate]

im a mean charging smiting machine but im kinda looking for other options since we are starting the mega adventure "Shadowdale the scourging of the land" which from what i hear takes a lot more cleverness and guile then straight out melee. i do apriciatre everyones help.

alter self will be a must for this next adventure i think since we have to travel through occupied lands of Zhentorum Armies.

[Saintheart]

Are they still arcane spells? Cause you'll get ASF in full plate if they are (and I assume a paladin wears armor). Don't forget you need INT to cast those spells too, not WIS.

Ectoplasmic Skin of Armor (MIC) covers the ASF issue. Relatively cheap, gives the armor bonus of unenchanted full plate, treated as light armor for all purposes, can be donned as a standard action - see the item description. The bard in my campaign loves this thing.

And if you want options other than straight combat, consider taking Glibness, the last of the "three Gs". A paladin who can talk his way out of a fight? Say it ain't so!

EDIT: Another option for charger builds: rhino hide armor +2, right out of the SRD. +2d6 damage on a charge, still gives you 20% ASF.

[ericgrau]

While I doubt invisibility is a big deal, lying is specifically spelled out as against the paladin's code.

[Robs]

While I doubt invisibility is a big deal, lying is specifically spelled out as against the paladin's code.

Yes, but the concept of lying isn't limited to speech, it could be argued that an illusion is lying.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's a big difference between lying and withholding tactical information. Walking around in plain sight when you could have cast invisibility is foolishly giving away tactical information, whereas using invisibility is not lying so much as just withholding that tactical information.

Furthermore, making a tactical feint is also not the same thing as lying. Whether you make your opponent think you're going to strike from one side, only to make your attack from the other side, or send a small portion of your army to attack a high value objective as a distraction while your main force strikes elsewhere, or if you use an illusion to cause opponents to make an uninformed tactical decision resulting in a blunder on their part, it is by definition a feint rather than a lie. A feint is similar to a lie, but they are not explicitly the same thing, and a tactical feint is not a violation of any paladin's code.

[tyckspoon]

Ectoplasmic Skin of Armor (MIC) covers the ASF issue. Relatively cheap, gives the armor bonus of unenchanted full plate, treated as light armor for all purposes, can be donned as a standard action - see the item description. The bard in my campaign loves this thing.


Still has a 25% ASF, so it's only an improvement if you already have 'cast in light armor' from somewhere else. Paladins don't, because they don't normally have to worry about it.. although I'd say if the DM has agreed to let Battle Blessing stretch to cover Sword of the Arcane Order spells, then they should be considered divine spells, because that's what Paladins cast and Battle Blessing only covers Paladin spells.

[Keld Denar]

Whirling Blade!

Wow, I can't believe it took 9 posts into this thread to mention the best gish ranged attack ever printed. Its great because its not CL dependant, has no save, you can use all of your melee abilities with it (Smite, Awesome Smite, Power Attack, Cleave(if you drop someone far away with a WB, you can Cleave someone adjacent to you), Divine Might, Law Devotion, Spellstoring Weapon, etc). You can even count yourself as holding the weapon in both hands to get 1.5x Str and 2:1 PA, just like you could if you hit someone with it.

Its just THAT good.

[Akal Saris]

For 1st level spells, I'd go with True Strike and Benign Transposition, since auto-quicken on either of them is absolutely fantastic. For 2nd level, Whirling Blade with an auto-quicken is another winner in combat, though Mirror Image would come very close in my book. Then I suppose Haste and Heart of Water/Heart of Stone are some of the better higher level picks.

[spiderfate]

what book is whirling blade from?

[Eldariel]

what book is whirling blade from?

Spell Compendium. Tho you need quite the Charisma/Intelligence to make it good (most Gishes have those stats higher than Str but Pally? Not so much). Then again, if you're making a Pally with SotAO, I'm guessing your stats are pretty impressive and that's not an issue.