The Warforged Sucker Punch: Optimizing Around Shocking Fist

[Cieyrin]

So in Player's Guide to Eberron, there's a Warforged feat called Shocking Fist, which is kinda like a fusion of Power Attack and Arcane Strike, as you sacrifice hp up to your BAB to deal an equal amount of d4s in electricity damage. I'm rather intrigued by this and want to see how much I can throw on top of this to make it a true threat.

So far, I'm looking at a Warforged (Unarmed?) Swordsage/Steadfast Sorcerer/Jade Phoenix Mage/Abjurant Champion, replacing the familiar with Wand Bonding (Stormreach 119). I'm looking at homebrew as well, like Arcane Sage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115296) to make up for MADness and Superior Construction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6272252) to get bonus Warforged feats. I'm thinking maybe dipping Spellcarved Soldier and soaking up Shocking Fist damage with False Life and Devoted Spirit maneuvers from JPM.

Any further suggestions on where I should go to be able to make this even more of a Falcon Punch? Suggestions, feedback, insight, praise, etc. is well appreciated! :smallbiggrin:

[Big Fau]

Please note that the Shocking Fist feat only works with your natural Slam attack, not with your Unarmed Strike. There isn't a reason to go Unarmed Swordsage because you can't buff the Slam that way.


So, normal Swordsage is better for this. And pick up Second Slam (RoE).

[Flickerdart]

Does the feat work on temporary HP? If so, Vigor up some pain.

[gallagher]

warforged are immune to poison, right?

get some marvelous pigments, and draw you up some poison to put on that attack

from the srd:
Marvelous Pigments

These magic emulsions enable their possessor to create actual, permanent objects simply by depicting their form in two dimensions. The pigments are applied by a stick tipped with bristles, hair, or fur. The emulsion flows from the application to form the desired object as the artist concentrates on the desired image. One pot of marvelous pigments is sufficient to create a 1,000-cubic-foot object by depicting it two-dimensionally over a 100-square-foot surface.

Only normal, inanimate objects can be created. Creatures can’t be created. The pigments must be applied to a surface. It takes 10 minutes and a DC 15 Craft (painting) check to depict an object with the pigments. Marvelous pigments cannot create magic items. Objects of value depicted by the pigments —precious metals, gems, jewelry, ivory, and so on— appear to be valuable but are really made of tin, lead, paste, brass, bone, and other such inexpensive materials. The user can create normal weapons, armor, and any other mundane item (including foodstuffs) whose value does not exceed 2,000 gp.

Items created are not magical; the effect is instantaneous.

Strong conjuration; CL 15th; Craft Wondrous Item, major creation; Price 4,000 gp.

poison is mundane

[Cieyrin]

Please note that the Shocking Fist feat only works with your natural Slam attack, not with your Unarmed Strike. There isn't a reason to go Unarmed Swordsage because you can't buff the Slam that way.

So, normal Swordsage is better for this. And pick up Second Slam (RoE).

Yeah, I know Shocking Fist is slam only. I'd considered Second Slam but Shocking Fist seems to only last one slam and explicitly only works 1/round, so it doesn't seem that great. I was considering Unarmed Swordsage due to Superior Construction's VoP effect so that I can just buff my natural weapons, unarmed strike being considered a natural weapon through US, or so I'm thinking.


Does the feat work on temporary HP? If so, Vigor up some pain.

The feat just says it deals damage, hence why I said False Life and Devoted Spirit healing maneuvers via JPM, plus Arcane Wrath for lulz damage. I hadn't considered a Psiforged, as Psionics isn't my forte, but what kind of buffing to the Falcon Punch can we go by that route? Perhaps that'd work as an alternate build on a separate power source.

[Cieyrin]

Found an interesting yet annoying clause in Arcane Strike, in that while it limits you to a single melee weapon or unarmed strike, you can imbue all your natural weapons. So basically, after the Falcon Punch, need Second Slam and Jaws of Death, plus a casting of Girallon's Blessing to take most advantage of a charge of Arcane Strike, that is when we aren't using a Martial Strike.

So Super Slam/Slam/Bite/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw then Unarmed Strikes (which may or may not count as a natural weapon, since they list it separately). Mini-Totemist in the middle of this build amuses me...

[Prime32]

Please note that the Shocking Fist feat only works with your natural Slam attack, not with your Unarmed Strike. There isn't a reason to go Unarmed Swordsage because you can't buff the Slam that way.Beast Strike feat + Battlefist.

[Flickerdart]

The dice are capped by BAB, so this build is going to have to think long and hard about losing BAB. However, it IS "damage", so the Share Pain + Vigor combo works. Sadly there are no psionic base classes with full base attack, but Ardent, as always, can fix that.

Ardent 1/Fangshield Ranger 2/Ardent 3/Slayer 10/ (for 16th level). Your feats are Shocking Fist, Practiced Manifester, Psicrystal Affinity, and for extra style points Linked Power and Metapower(Linked Power: Share Pain). Your BAB is 15. You max out Vigor (+75 temp HP for 15 PP, +1 PP for Linked, shared with your psicrystal), then next turn your Share Pain pops and you go to town. Every time you use Shocking Fist, you can hit yourself for 15 damage (you can do this 10 times before ever taking real HP damage) and do 15d4. You have Improved Natural Attack from Fangshield Ranger. You might as well figure out a way to fly (you're a full manifester, figure it out) and pick up Flyby Attack, or even maybe Great Flyby Attack (it requires you to make one damage roll, and this damage isn't precision). Then grab Fission and now there's two of you!

[Prime32]

The dice are capped by BAB, so this build is going to have to think long and hard about losing BAB.Hmm. This sounds like a job for...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10408

[Flickerdart]

No! Stop the presses! I have a solution, ladies and gentlegents. Behold, the capstone of the Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a)!



Flurry of Swords (Ex): The pinnacle of the arcane duelist's power is to create a flurry of sword attacks against a single target. When this power is activated, the arcane duelist makes one additional attack each round at her highest base attack bonus, but each attack that round suffers a -2 penalty. All attacks must be made on the same opponent. Further, the arcane duelist creates 1d4 quasi-real images plus 1 additional image per three levels of arcane duelist. Each image attacks the same opponent as the arcane duelist herself using the same bonuses as the arcane duelist, and any hits do subdual damage to the target. This power is usable once per day per arcane duelist level, but only once per day against any opponent. It requires the full-attack action to use this power. Aside from these differences, the images act as the mirror image spell.

:smallamused:

[Cog]

Beast Strike feat + Battlefist.
Beast Strike adds claw/slam to unarmed, not the other way around. Since you aren't actually making a slam attack, you wouldn't get the benefit of Shocking Fist.

[EnnPeeCee]

I've actually been looking at that feat and thinking about putting it to use on a Hellreaver. It looks like you want to play a caster, but if you want something more martial, Hellreaver seems to me like an amazing way to heal up all the damage you do to yourself.

[magusoftheCore]

If you were trying this 3.P you could use the vital strike chain. and couldnt you use psionic weapon to enhance a natural weapon?

[Seffbasilisk]

Three words. Greater Mighty Wallop.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Since you're using Swordsage, you could get a lot of milage out of Stone Power and Shards of Granite. The former lets you ignore 10 damage/round, which helps mitigate damage from Shocking Fist. The latter lets you completely ignore DR and Hardness, which is also highly useful to you.

However, since unarmed attacks don't work so well for this, why go Swordsage? Warblade or Crusader might be better...

In fact, Crusader is a really good choice... you hurt yourself with Shocking Fist... which causes you to do even MORE damage... then you pick up the stance that lets you heal 2 damage when you hit an opponent, and you will further mitigate the damage caused by Shocking Fist.

[T.G. Oskar]

Hmm...since you're going the path of Arcane Strike (and thus spellcasting), why not mix it up with Energy Vulnerability (PHB II)? With a failed save (affecting creatures up to twice your HD, which covers quite a lot and you want only to affect a single creature), you can grant vulnerability to a series of creatures. Find a way to cast it swiftly (hint: it's Abjuration!) before the attack, then power up your fist and strike. Or, if you just want to make it irresistible, Heighten it (to your highest spell slots, anyways).

Also: True Strike is your friend. That way, you can add Power Attack to the mix and lose just about nothing. Quickened True Strike might not be so hot, but it works nonetheless. Also, while at it, you can add stuff like Divine Sacrifice (through UMD if necessary; Rod of Many Wands on one hand or maybe a Casting Glove?) or Blade of Blood for an extra 3d6 of damage on that attack for just five extra HP (and it's a 1st level necromancy spell, so there).

Is there something to grant a size increase to living constructs? That'd be awesome, since then you'd have a larger slam attack and reach, which means you can use that sucker punch as an AoO (and if you have the Arcane Strike feat enabled, that's some serious damage).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Is there something to grant a size increase to living constructs? That'd be awesome, since then you'd have a larger slam attack and reach, which means you can use that sucker punch as an AoO (and if you have the Arcane Strike feat enabled, that's some serious damage).

Expansion works on living constructs...

[Cog]

Expansion works on living constructs...
With Arcane Strike already in the build, Giant Size might be a better match. Wu Jen's noted for having gish-friendly spells anyway...

[Person_Man]

There's a Lightning Gauntlets soulmeld that allows you to make an Electricity touch attack at will, and you can "charge" up your weapon with electricity. It's actually fairly strong at low levels, but less so by ECL 6+ish when it's eclipsed by your standard Power Attack combo. You may wish to consider using it in place of Shocking Fist.

Also, there's a really obscure race of Planetouched in the Fiend Folio called Mechanatrix, which is very similar to Warforged. They have +1 LA, can use Shocking Grasp at will once per day, and are healed 1 point for every 3 points of electricity damage that they take, and a few other minor perks. Thus if you have Lightning Gauntlets or some similar ability, then you have unlimited healing, and your allies can dump Lightning Bolts on you in the middle of combat to heal you.

[Aergoth]

I recommend picking up some diamond mind or devoted spirit maneuvers. Emerald Razor (2nd Level Diamond Mind Strike), lets you make a touch attack instead of a regular melee attack, and the Aura of Chaos stance from Devoted Spirit lets you *keep rolling for damage* as long as you roll for max damage. Shock and Roll.:smallcool:

[Flickerdart]

At higher levels, see if you can swing Shapeshifting into a Shambling Mount and then punch yourself for all the Constitution in the world.

[Cieyrin]

I've actually been looking at that feat and thinking about putting it to use on a Hellreaver. It looks like you want to play a caster, but if you want something more martial, Hellreaver seems to me like an amazing way to heal up all the damage you do to yourself.

More gish than caster, really. I'm using Stalwart Sorcerer and JPM so I can stand in melee (JPM is Full BAB, after all...). Hellreaver does look interesting but I don't think it pumps out enough damage as compared to Arcane Wrath, which will be my swift action currently.


Three words. Greater Mighty Wallop.

YES. :smallbiggrin:


Since you're using Swordsage, you could get a lot of milage out of Stone Power and Shards of Granite. The former lets you ignore 10 damage/round, which helps mitigate damage from Shocking Fist. The latter lets you completely ignore DR and Hardness, which is also highly useful to you.

However, since unarmed attacks don't work so well for this, why go Swordsage? Warblade or Crusader might be better...

In fact, Crusader is a really good choice... you hurt yourself with Shocking Fist... which causes you to do even MORE damage... then you pick up the stance that lets you heal 2 damage when you hit an opponent, and you will further mitigate the damage caused by Shocking Fist.

Possible, was mostly thinking of having a threat besides the one Falcon Punch, especially since manufactured weapons typically demote you to one natural weapon and make it secondary and made of suck, hence I was looking at unarmed swordsage so I can continue mowing down forces via Arcane Strike, since it charges all natural weapons, not just one like it does for manufactured. Crusader with Stone Power and Shards of Granite could work well, though, for sucking up Shocking Fist damage.


Hmm...since you're going the path of Arcane Strike (and thus spellcasting), why not mix it up with Energy Vulnerability (PHB II)? With a failed save (affecting creatures up to twice your HD, which covers quite a lot and you want only to affect a single creature), you can grant vulnerability to a series of creatures. Find a way to cast it swiftly (hint: it's Abjuration!) before the attack, then power up your fist and strike. Or, if you just want to make it irresistible, Heighten it (to your highest spell slots, anyways).

Also: True Strike is your friend. That way, you can add Power Attack to the mix and lose just about nothing. Quickened True Strike might not be so hot, but it works nonetheless. Also, while at it, you can add stuff like Divine Sacrifice (through UMD if necessary; Rod of Many Wands on one hand or maybe a Casting Glove?) or Blade of Blood for an extra 3d6 of damage on that attack for just five extra HP (and it's a 1st level necromancy spell, so there).

Is there something to grant a size increase to living constructs? That'd be awesome, since then you'd have a larger slam attack and reach, which means you can use that sucker punch as an AoO (and if you have the Arcane Strike feat enabled, that's some serious damage).

Energy Vulnerability would definitely play well with Abjurant Champion, which gives me more reason to use it. I was thinking of Blade of Blood early on till Arcane Wrath kicks in. I'll have to play around with True Strike to see how it fits in, though insurance on making sure my Falcon Punch hits is nice to have. Divine Sacrifice I'll have to think about and I think Greater Mighty Wallop will have to handle my Falcon Punch for the time being, as I don't particularly want to mix arcane, psionic and martial in one build (Expansion works for the Psiforged version, though!)


There's a Lightning Gauntlets soulmeld that allows you to make an Electricity touch attack at will, and you can "charge" up your weapon with electricity. It's actually fairly strong at low levels, but less so by ECL 6+ish when it's eclipsed by your standard Power Attack combo. You may wish to consider using it in place of Shocking Fist.

Also, there's a really obscure race of Planetouched in the Fiend Folio called Mechanatrix, which is very similar to Warforged. They have +1 LA, can use Shocking Grasp at will once per day, and are healed 1 point for every 3 points of electricity damage that they take, and a few other minor perks. Thus if you have Lightning Gauntlets or some similar ability, then you have unlimited healing, and your allies can dump Lightning Bolts on you in the middle of combat to heal you.

Nice but I'm fairly set on Shocking Fist Warforged at the moment.


I recommend picking up some diamond mind or devoted spirit maneuvers. Emerald Razor (2nd Level Diamond Mind Strike), lets you make a touch attack instead of a regular melee attack, and the Aura of Chaos stance from Devoted Spirit lets you *keep rolling for damage* as long as you roll for max damage. Shock and Roll.:smallcool:

That's where the swordsage and JPM levels come in. :smallsmile:

EDIT:
At higher levels, see if you can swing Shapeshifting into a Shambling Mount and then punch yourself for all the Constitution in the world.

Lulzy capstone ability, indeed. Probably get books thrown at me for that, though...

Before I forget, is there an alternative to Battle Sorcerer to get Armored Casting, as I kinda want to pick up Mithral Body which is considered light armor. Having a method to reduce or ignore ASF before I can afford to enchant my plating with Twilight would be nice, y'know? Warmage isn't really that good for gish self-buffing and I'm otherwise at a loss...

[Flickerdart]

Knight Phantom 1 gives it to you for Light Armour, but that loses you a caster level and has some prerequisites.

[Cieyrin]

Knight Phantom 1 gives it to you for Light Armour, but that loses you a caster level and has some prerequisites.

I'm losing 2 CLs through JPM and Swordsage, anyways, so I'm not exactly pursuing 9s. I'll look into it, though, thanks for point it out.

[Essence_of_War]

I'm making a warforged "Iron Man" character for a one-shot and I really like this as a trick to have in his back pocket.

Thanks for pointing this out :smallbiggrin: