Can illusions counter illusions?

[Analytica]

What the title says. If a character knows their ally is under an illusion, could they use an appropriate illusion spell that creates an illusion that looks like the truth, and could that supercede the first illusion? How would you determine which one gets precedence? Could you do this on yourself if you suspected illusions (or for that matter, if you wanted to relate to the world as it would look like under an illusion rather than what it really looks like)?

[Groverfield]

You can. The way it would work is the subjects would have a will save to disbelieve the illusionary reinforcement of your perception of reality. If they fail, they would see both, and likely be disoriented.
Alternatively, the DM can rule that it would be an attempt to disspell the first, and it would be rolled as a disspell attempt.

[Analytica]

I am now imagining a wizard or beguiler who is constantly under the effect of their own illusions in one way or another. Interesting.

[Groverfield]

I always wanted to make an (somehow divine) illusionist whom, with enough successful will saves could disbelieve reality out of existence.

You'll believe anything that you don't disbelieve, so if there's a ruined staircase that has the illusion that it's in perfect condition to trap people into a pit below it, and you make an illusion that the staircase doesn't exist because you noticed that there's an illusion. Likewise the illusions you cast on yourself you'll know are illusions, but you'll see them all still all the same. Also, just for the record: Shadow Conjuration.

[Honest Tiefling]

Cleric with Illusion domain and/or Divine Bard?

[Divide by Zero]

I don't know if there's official rules for that, but I'd just call it an opposed caster level check to see whose illusion is stronger.

[Ravens_cry]

I am now imagining a wizard or beguiler who is constantly under the effect of their own illusions in one way or another. Interesting.
Aren't we all?:smallamused:

[Flame of Anor]

What the title says. If a character knows their ally is under an illusion, could they use an appropriate illusion spell that creates an illusion that looks like the truth, and could that supercede the first illusion? How would you determine which one gets precedence? Could you do this on yourself if you suspected illusions (or for that matter, if you wanted to relate to the world as it would look like under an illusion rather than what it really looks like)?

It's spelled "supersede", by the way.

[Analytica]

It's spelled "supersede", by the way.

Appreciated. I was unsure, due to English being secondary language. You have helped me improve. :smallsmile:

Can you choose to fail Will saves against your own illusions?

[Jack_Simth]

What the title says. If a character knows their ally is under an illusion, could they use an appropriate illusion spell that creates an illusion that looks like the truth, and could that supercede the first illusion? How would you determine which one gets precedence? Could you do this on yourself if you suspected illusions (or for that matter, if you wanted to relate to the world as it would look like under an illusion rather than what it really looks like)?
Per Combining Magical Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects):

Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts. (emphasis added)

So if an opponent got a Veil on your party Fighter to make him look like Mr. BigBadMcKittenEater, you can use Veil on your party Fighter to make him look like your party Fighter again... and the most recent casting wins.

[Analytica]

Per Combining Magical Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects):
(emphasis added)

So if an opponent got a Veil on your party Fighter to make him look like Mr. BigBadMcKittenEater, you can use Veil on your party Fighter to make him look like your party Fighter again... and the most recent casting wins.

Notably, then, you can do this on effects that would be too powerful for you to dispel. :smallbiggrin:

[Jack_Simth]

Notably, then, you can do this on effects that would be too powerful for you to dispel. :smallbiggrin:
If you can cast the same spell, sure. In the case of an illusion on terrain, it'd also work the same way, but you'd need to know what the terrain was, first. And so on. Oh yes, and of course you need to know what your Fighter buddy looks like to turn him back, but that's generally presumed...

Oh, and in regards to failing saves vs. your own illusions: It'll give the DM a headache if he thinks about it too much, but yes; there's no particular restriction on having a need of making a save that would prevent you from voluntarily failing it.

[Flickerdart]

You could always conjure your own illusion slightly in front of the other one, and make it opaque.

[Analytica]

If you can cast the same spell, sure. In the case of an illusion on terrain, it'd also work the same way, but you'd need to know what the terrain was, first. And so on. Oh yes, and of course you need to know what your Fighter buddy looks like to turn him back, but that's generally presumed...

Oh, and in regards to failing saves vs. your own illusions: It'll give the DM a headache if he thinks about it too much, but yes; there's no particular restriction on having a need of making a save that would prevent you from voluntarily failing it.

I am thinking of situations where you can logically determine that something in your perceptions are wrong. You cannot disbelieve them, but can make a leap of faith that probably you or an ally are under the effect of an illusion, and guess at a set of perceptions that might be closer to the truth, then project them.

I.e. fighter refuses to cross the room, claiming there is now a chasm there. You sensed no magic capable of breaching the floor, but did sense illusion magic, so you use a silent image to hide the chasm with illusory floor tiles. Similarly, if somehow your or your fighter's loved ones appear as hostages, despite that they should not be there in the first place, you can make them appear like something else.

It could be argued that not disbelieving the illusion means that your mind is, in fact, manipulated to accept it so much that you cannot make these leaps of logic, though.

In which case I might make exceptions to that for a really crazed illusionist who makes every emotionally challenging situation seem more pleasing. Your mate berates you; you affect yourself to hear different words. It turns out the villain actually did hold your loved ones hostage, which you avoided knowledge of through illusions. Now they are dead, and you minor image their corpses to seem like the corpses of strangers, and major image them into being there when you return home... that way lies absolutely fascinating madness. :smallbiggrin:

Most importantly, though: compensating for emotional weaknesses. You are so afraid of the villain (not due to a fear effect, but standard psychology) that you fear you may give in to them. You make them seem, to you, like something much less threatening, so you dare fight them in the first place.

The villain wears baby armour. You are confident you cannot make yourself strike at them, on an emotional rather than intellectual level. Convince yourself through illusion that they are only dolls. You are a novice villain tasked to kill the monarch's heir, but have not yet hardened your heart enough to do the final stab. Make it look like a lecherous halfling, do the deed, then face the feelings.

[deuxhero]

Wait, I always though saving against an illusion only told it was fake (disbelive), not get rid of it?


Was "disbelieve" ever codified?

[Ksheep]

Wait, I always though saving against an illusion only told it was fake (disbelive), not get rid of it?


Was "disbelieve" ever codified?



From the PHB:

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

[deuxhero]

Ah. Thanks.

[Jack_Simth]

I am thinking of situations where you can logically determine that something in your perceptions are wrong. You cannot disbelieve them, but can make a leap of faith that probably you or an ally are under the effect of an illusion, and guess at a set of perceptions that might be closer to the truth, then project them.

I.e. fighter refuses to cross the room, claiming there is now a chasm there. You sensed no magic capable of breaching the floor, but did sense illusion magic, so you use a silent image to hide the chasm with illusory floor tiles. Similarly, if somehow your or your fighter's loved ones appear as hostages, despite that they should not be there in the first place, you can make them appear like something else.

Very dangerous, this. There's nonmagical ways to produce a chasm (pit trap, essentially; trigger it while you cast the illusion spell). Teleportation magic exists in D&D, so your loved ones could show up anywhere.


It could be argued that not disbelieving the illusion means that your mind is, in fact, manipulated to accept it so much that you cannot make these leaps of logic, though.

In which case I might make exceptions to that for a really crazed illusionist who makes every emotionally challenging situation seem more pleasing. Your mate berates you; you affect yourself to hear different words. It turns out the villain actually did hold your loved ones hostage, which you avoided knowledge of through illusions. Now they are dead, and you minor image their corpses to seem like the corpses of strangers, and major image them into being there when you return home... that way lies absolutely fascinating madness. :smallbiggrin:

You'll run out of spell slots fairly quickly at that rate...


Most importantly, though: compensating for emotional weaknesses. You are so afraid of the villain (not due to a fear effect, but standard psychology) that you fear you may give in to them. You make them seem, to you, like something much less threatening, so you dare fight them in the first place.

The villain wears baby armour. You are confident you cannot make yourself strike at them, on an emotional rather than intellectual level. Convince yourself through illusion that they are only dolls. You are a novice villain tasked to kill the monarch's heir, but have not yet hardened your heart enough to do the final stab. Make it look like a lecherous halfling, do the deed, then face the feelings.
That's an.. interesting take...

[Analytica]

Very dangerous, this. There's nonmagical ways to produce a chasm (pit trap, essentially; trigger it while you cast the illusion spell). Teleportation magic exists in D&D, so your loved ones could show up anywhere.

Still, if you encounter a scenario that looks like its right out of a cartoon for kids, then you might question it anyway, if your character is highly logical. If you are wrong, then it's angst time. :smallsmile:


You'll run out of spell slots fairly quickly at that rate...

Agreed; you've made good points showing me that this is not really an optimized strategy.


That's an.. interesting take...

After writing that, I began thinking about Suggesting, Dominating, Memory Modifying or Mindraping yourself... :smallsmile: