Is Arcane Swordsage Tier 1?

[Redshirt Army]

Since the Arcane Swordsage variant isn't very clearly spelled out, here's the interpretation of it I will use:

-Upon learning new maneuvers, an Arcane Swordsage may instead opt to replace any of the new maneuvers they learned with a spell of equal level (Level 5 Maneuver = Level 5 Spell).

-This spell must be from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, must be from the schools of Evocation, Abjuration, or Transmutation(!), and must have a range of personal or touch.

-This spell is treated as a maneuver for most purposes: it must be readied, and can be recovered as a full round action. It is readied again when the Adaptive Style feat is used (as it will be), and the Save DCs for it is 10 + Spell Level + Wisdom.

-A Swordsage with this variant has a d6 hit dice, and does not gain Light Armour proficiency.

This variant is a mere footnote in the Swordsage section, to the point that it's hard to even call it a variant. However, it's described right beneath the Unarmed Swordsage variant, so from a legality standpoint (if not a sanity standpoint), both variants are equally valid.

Above, I've described what I see as the most strict reading of the variant possible (the original wording is on page 20 of the ToB). I'm curious to know what Tier this variant is: Is it Tier 0 because of shenanigans with Polymorph and Time Stop? Is it Tier 1? Or merely Tier 2 because of the restrictions on spell choices?

[Vandicus]

Its not nearly tier 0. I might put it at tier 2, but not tier 1 because they really don't have the same versatility as a tier 1 is supposed to have.

[Xtomjames]

I'd argue it's a transitory tier and is dependent at what level you use the variant and what spell you take. However it is no lower that tier 1. Mainly because sword sage maneuvers are based on total character level not just the sword sage level. For example if you start at 5th level, level into swordsage level one, then your highest maneuver is your swordsage level (1)+ half your starting class levels (2 in this case). If you take the variant then you can gain a renewable 3rd level spell that never runs out.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The problem is, the school restrictions are explicitly a suggestion. They have access to all schools.

[Vandicus]

The problem is, the school restrictions are explicitly a suggestion. They have access to all schools.

Ah, I hadn't actually checked out the variant. In that case they are a tier 1.

[Circle of Life]

It's either tier 1 or tier 0, depending on the level the game is being played at.

[Redshirt Army]

The problem is, the school restrictions are explicitly a suggestion. They have access to all schools.

Hence my super strict reading. By the original wording, they could get:

- Any arcane spell, not just Sorcerer/Wizard spells (Trapsmith abuse, anyone?)
- No school restrictions.
- No range restrictions.

At that point, I'm having trouble seeing the class as anything other than Tier 0.

I'm wondering if the restrictions actually serve to balance it at all.

EDIT:



And of course, what do you do with stances? It was never spelled out. Are they limited to self-only spells that you can turn on (one at a time) with a swift action? In any case, there's another 6 known (that you cannot swap out.)


You pick stances available to Swordsages. The variant doesn't even take away the ability to take maneuvers normally, and as there's no equivalent to Stances when it comes to spells (maybe invocations?), you'll just end up picking Swordsage stances (that you qualify for).

[Talya]

Its not nearly tier 0. I might put it at tier 2, but not tier 1 because they really don't have the same versatility as a tier 1 is supposed to have.

I'm not sure...

While it's true that 25 spells known is not many....it's probably much better than it looks.
Your break down of spells known could look like this (with the proviso that you can always CHOOSE to have lower level spells if you realy want one.)

Level 1: 0
Level 2: 1
Level 3: 3
Level 4: 3
Level 5: 3
Level 6: 3
Level 7: 3
Level 8: 3
Level 9: 6

Furthermore, you get 12 spell slots. These slots have no level, so you can ready ALL of your level 7-9 spells. You can also blow them all in every fight, because you can regain them all with ease.

I'd be rather impressed by a gimped low-spells-known sorcerer who unloaded with a level 9 spell every damn round. If that isn't tier 1, simply by virtue of being able to use Tsar Bomba each and every turn, then I don't know what is.

And of course, what do you do with stances? It was never spelled out. Are they limited to self-only spells that you can turn on (one at a time) with a swift action? In any case, there's another 6 known (that you cannot swap out.)

Arcane Swordsages have the potential to be more horribly broken than anything.

[Jack_Simth]

Above, I've described what I see as the most strict reading of the variant possible (the original wording is on page 20 of the ToB). I'm curious to know what Tier this variant is: Is it Tier 0 because of shenanigans with Polymorph and Time Stop? Is it Tier 1? Or merely Tier 2 because of the restrictions on spell choices?

It's Tier-2, same as the Sorcerer. While there's a lot of options for the Arcane Swordsage to pick and choose from, the Arcane Swordsage is limited to knowing 25 spells-as-manuevers (at 20th), and even then, only 12 at a time (again, at 20th). And while yes, the Arcane Swordsage can change spells-as-manuevers out... that only happens when the Arcane Swordsage can gain new manuevers: Level up. The Sorcerer is per-day; the Arcane Swordsage is per-encounter. They're both the same tier.

Edit:
Those arguing tier based on power: That's not the fundamental of a tier. Link to the Tier System (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293)

The relevant bit (spoilered for length):

The Tier System

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite (Spell to Power Variant)

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges), Eurdite (No Spell to Power)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psychic Warrior

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Zhentarium Variant)

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight, CW Samurai (with Imperious Command available)

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai (without Imperious Command available), Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner (emphasis added)Arcane Swordsage is very much tier-2. Gamebreaking, but in a predictable manner for a given Arcane Swordsage.

[The_Snark]

I think it's probably Tier 2; it has access to a wide list of spells (the sorcerer/wizard list), but it lacks the defining quality of a Tier 1 class, namely versatility. A sorcerer has access to a wide array of powerful spells; a wizard has access to the same list, but can change their selection from day to day. All of the classes on the Tier 1 list are either prepared casters who draw from a wide list, or can simulate it (the artificer via magic items, the erudite via the Spells to Power variant).

The arcane swordsage resembles the wizard in that it knows more spells than it can prepare (or ready, in this case), but the total number of spells it knows is less than the sorcerer gets, and it can't acquire more like the wizard can. Seems Tier 2 to me.

This is not to say that it's balanced, but the tier system is not a perfect measure of balance.

[Flickerdart]

It'd be a much higher Tier 2 than Sorcerer though - standing, as it were, on its shoulders and sighing wistfully at the Tier 1s on the other side of the tier fence.

[Divide by Zero]

It's really hard to compare, because spells were not balanced against infinite use (assuming they were balanced at all in the first place). For example, at-will time stop obviously breaks the game in half without even trying.

[Redshirt Army]

It's Tier-2, same as the Sorcerer. While there's a lot of options for the Arcane Swordsage to pick and choose from, the Arcane Swordsage is limited to knowing 25 spells-as-manuevers (at 20th), and even then, only 12 at a time (again, at 20th). And while yes, the Arcane Swordsage can change spells-as-manuevers out... that only happens when the Arcane Swordsage can gain new manuevers: Level up. The Sorcerer is per-day; the Arcane Swordsage is per-encounter. They're both the same tier.

While you may be right, the ability to recover maneuvers really breaks some stuff (especially Time Stop - an arcane swordsage could stop time forever easily, or more pragmatically, lay down a hyper-devastating barrage of Vortex of Teeth), and the ability to lead off with 9th level spells every combat seems pretty powerful.

EDIT: Fair enough, I guess I just assumed that if you're powerful enough, you get to play with the cool kids on the other side of the fencOH GOD THIS IS A TORTURED ANALOGY

Also, I was somewhat Swordsage'd, which is appropriate for this discussion.

All that said, this quote


Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

seems to indicate that enough power can, in fact, let you jump a tier. It's debatable whether the Arcane Swordsage has enough to be Tier 1, and whether it's even possible to enter Tier 1 this way, but there is precedent for power trumping versatility. So my point still stands? Kinda? Not really.

[Jack_Simth]

It's really hard to compare, because spells were not balanced against infinite use (assuming they were balanced at all in the first place). For example, at-will time stop obviously breaks the game in half without even trying.
It does! However, that's a tier-2 ability, because once you've selected Time Stop: You can't change it easily at all. Granted, it's a high-end tier-2, but it's tier-2.

[Vandicus]

While you may be right, the ability to recover maneuvers really breaks some stuff (especially Time Stop - an arcane swordsage could stop time forever easily, or more pragmatically, lay down a hyper-devastating barrage of Vortex of Teeth), and the ability to lead off with 9th level spells every combat seems pretty powerful.

The tier system is not solely a measure of power.

"Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything"

My revised rating of Tier 1 is due to my belief that their spells known spread out across the list is sufficient for a Tier 1's versatility, provided they take extra spell a few times.

[Hiro Protagonest]

While you may be right, the ability to recover maneuvers really breaks some stuff (especially Time Stop - an arcane swordsage could stop time forever easily, or more pragmatically, lay down a hyper-devastating barrage of Vortex of Teeth), and the ability to lead off with 9th level spells every combat seems pretty powerful.

Yep. They use time stop, recover time stop while being affected by it, put down a delayed blast fireball and if they have another round of time stop, recover delayed blast fireball. Any other rounds are spent with casting delayed blast fireball again or putting a buff or control spell on the field.

[TheOOB]

Remember that tier 2 classes are not any less powerful than tier 1, they are less versatile than tier 1.

[Urpriest]

If Arcane Swordsages exist, then anyone can pick up per-encounter spells on their recovery mechanic via the Crown of the White Raven types of items, right? Does that change anything?

[Redshirt Army]

If Arcane Swordsages exist, then anyone can pick up per-encounter spells on their recovery mechanic via the Crown of the White Raven types of items, right? Does that change anything?

I hadn't even thought of that! :smalleek:

I also don't want to think about how the class interacts with stuff like Jade Phoenix Mage.

This is a theoretical discussion more than anything, and at this point it's clear that regardless of it's Tier, Arcane Swordsage is unplayable in real games (at least as written).

EDIT:

I thought of another terrible analogy:

What an ubercharger build is to a Warblade, an Arcane Swordsage is to a Wizard.

The Swordsage has more UNLIMITED POWAH, but the Wizard has way more options.

[Talya]

It's a tier 2 that can do anything, all the time, for as long as it wants.
Could you think of 25-31 spells (remember, Stances likely get turned into spells of some kind, too) that, if you could cast them at will, would make you utterly unbeatable?

Remember, it casts 9th level spells with more flagrant abandon than other casters cast a cantrip.

In that means it starts off each and every fight with Shapechange and Foresight already active (and probably up 100% of the time). Since you are never caught flatfooted, celerity must be one of your spells, and you start every combat with Celerity (unless you win initiative) and TimeStop.

You skip most conjuration (creation), conjuration (summoning), and evocation spells, (and likely become a killer gnome, but lets ignore that, and assume you merely takes spells like Shades and Greater Shadow Evocation. It wouldn't need the lower level ones). Suddenly you can cast almost every spell from one and a half schools.

You abuse Metamagics with abandon, since your spell slots have no spell level to worry about...

Lastly, keep Limited Wish available (or better yet, that Killer Gnome's Shadow Miracle) and really, there's nothing a wizard can ever do that you cannot.

I think you underestimate the versatility of a character who always has their very best spells to cast. If a wizard could do this, he would only ever use 5-6 spells, as well.

Arcane Swordsage as a concept is utterly broken.

[Vandicus]

Could you think of 25-31 spells (remember, Stances likely get turned into spells of some kind, too) that, if you could cast them at will, would make you utterly unbeatable?


You abuse Metamagics with abandon, since your spell slots have no spell level to worry about...

Lastly, keep Limited Wish available (or better yet, that Killer Gnome's Shadow Miracle) and really, there's nothing a wizard can ever do that you cannot.




By RAW stances are not changed into spells, metamagic can't be used because "the arcane spell is "cast" as if it were a martial maneuver". Martial maneuvers can't use metamagic.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yes, it is Tier 1, for the following reason:

1. Learn Heroics as a maneuver, have Adaptive Style.
2. Initiate Heroics, gain Martial Study to gain any spell you want as a maneuver.
3. Adaptive Style to ready that new spell, and to recover Heroics.
4. Initiate that new spell, dismiss Heroics, repeat steps 2-4.
5. Have every hour/level and 24 hour duration buff in the game (Greater Mage Armor, Greater Magic Weapon, Energy Immunity, Superior Resistance, Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, etc.) active at any given time for the cost of one 2nd level maneuver known, and be able to cast any sorcerer/wizard spell in the game within three rounds.

Also note that martial maneuvers are never considered spells or spell-like, they're always either extraordinary or supernatural. That means your buffs cannot be dispelled (but disjoining works), your spell-maneuvers cannot be counterspelled, always ignore SR and most magic immunity, never provoke AoOs, you never risk interruption to damage taken or Silence effects, and there's never a costly material component or XP cost.

Be sure to get Ruby Ray of Reversal, it's been affectionately referred to as the 'win ray' by people I play with.

[Vandicus]

2. Initiate Heroics, gain Martial Study to gain any spell you want as a maneuver.



The variant doesn't state that it applies to maneuvers gained through Martial Study, and plus Martial Study is very thorough and explicit in that it allows you to learn a maneuver from "the chosen discipline".

[Ernir]

Another thing to keep in mind is how maneuvers scale. You can take 6 levels of non-initiating classes and still get 9ths. That's more build flexibility than normal casters enjoy.

Also, ban bloodlines.

[marcielle]

IIRC, swordsage can meditate and make a martial lore check to learn new maneuvers or something like that. What happens to this variant? Does it learn new spells? If it does, then Gygax help us all cos I don't think there is any actual COST for doing this besides meditation time.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The variant doesn't state that it applies to maneuvers gained through Martial Study, and plus Martial Study is very thorough and explicit in that it allows you to learn a maneuver from "the chosen discipline".

"If you prefer, you could instead emphasize the magical talents of the swordsage by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level."

It's not limited to maneuvers gained via the Swordsage class. Martial Study: Desert Wind, pick a spell in place of the maneuver gained, it doesn't matter that spells don't have disciplines because you're using the built-in spell substitution. The only requirement is that the spell replace a maneuver of equivalent level, school and discipline are irrelevant.

[FMArthur]

I think a key distinction that needs to be made is that any particular tier 2 character is almost never more powerful than tier 1s that decide to take on that same tier 2's same spell list one day.

The thing with Arcane Swordsage is that it actually is more powerful than tier 1s by a not-insignificant amount. While the differences in power levels is almost always in versatility from tiers 1-4, it still is a measurement of strength; versatility is just the most common divider between stronger and weaker classes. You can kind of use the tier list as a sorting method between different types of classes, and an Arcane Swordsage is probably most similar to spontaneous casters for those purposes, but when you use the tier system for actual evaluation and gameplay purposes, such as adjusted point-buys and limited gestalt, it doesn't really matter that Arcane Swordsages don't work the same way as other tier 1s. It's still just as overpowering in its own way.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

And people say ToB isn't overpowered. Just kidding :)

[DeltaEmil]

That's because Wizards of the Coast were putting all their efforts in D&D 4th edition and didn't care anymore that much about balancing for D&D 3.5.

By that time, they simply said "do whatever you want".

That's also the reason why errata for Tome of Battle is so full of fail once you look at it.

[The Glyphstone]

And people say ToB isn't overpowered.

Yeah, but it's also definitive proof ToB isn't anime - no anime characters start off by spamming their most powerful attack over and over, the way an Arcane Swordsage can. Me too.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Yeah, but it's also definitive proof ToB isn't anime - no anime characters start off by spamming their most powerful attack over and over, the way an Arcane Swordsage can. Me too.What if I imagine him grunting for five episodes as a free action first?

[Redshirt Army]

And people say ToB isn't overpowered. Just kidding :)


Yeah, but it's also definitive proof ToB isn't anime - no anime characters start off by spamming their most powerful attack over and over, the way an Arcane Swordsage can. Me too.

And thus we put to rest the greatest questions of our age. :smalltongue:EDIT: White text is hard.

[kardar233]

Yeah, while the A(rcane)SS (hehehe) may be a Tier 2 class, I don't doubt that he could easily annihilate any Tier 1 class without shenanigans like Craft Contingent Spell.

He's even more broken in a standard adventuring party. At least with Wizards, you have to conserve your slots. If an encounter isn't over after you've thrown 6 9th-level spells at it, you either have a sadistic DM or you're doing something very wrong.

[stainboy]

Assuming you just play it vanilla and don't use any of Biffoniacus's clever tricks from the last page, it's probably tier 2. Tier 2 because it has to choose a limited number of ways to make game balance squeal like a piggy.

Which they will do, if the player takes the slightest interest in utility magic. Solid Fog or Glitterdust as maneuvers would be no big deal, but Teleport or Scrying or Nightmare on a 12-second refresh? Most DMs aren't willing to deal with that.

[Redshirt Army]

Yes, it is Tier 1, for the following reason:

1. Learn Heroics as a maneuver, have Adaptive Style.
2. Initiate Heroics, gain Martial Study to gain any spell you want as a maneuver.
3. Adaptive Style to ready that new spell, and to recover Heroics.
4. Initiate that new spell, dismiss Heroics, repeat steps 2-4.
5. Have every hour/level and 24 hour duration buff in the game (Greater Mage Armor, Greater Magic Weapon, Energy Immunity, Superior Resistance, Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, etc.) active at any given time for the cost of one 2nd level maneuver known, and be able to cast any sorcerer/wizard spell in the game within three rounds.

Also note that martial maneuvers are never considered spells or spell-like, they're always either extraordinary or supernatural. That means your buffs cannot be dispelled (but disjoining works), your spell-maneuvers cannot be counterspelled, always ignore SR and most magic immunity, never provoke AoOs, you never risk interruption to damage taken or Silence effects, and there's never a costly material component or XP cost.



Yep. They use time ttop, recover time ttop while being affected by it, put down a delayed blast fireball and if they have another round of time stop, recover delayed blast fireball. Any other rounds are spent with casting delayed blast fireball again or putting a buff or control spell on the field.

I just realized something. With a Warforged Arcane Swordsage, sufficient time (which we have because of the Time Stop trick), and use of Biffoniacus' trick, it's possible to literally throw every single Sorcerer/Wizard spell, plus every other spell and power of 6th level or below at a problem (through Wish), an infinite number of times(with use of the Delay Spell metamagic). Not very practical, but still.

EVERY SPELL

INFINITE TIMES

IN ONE ROUND

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

He's gone mad! Mad with power!

[Divide by Zero]

Alternately, you could take Craft (basketweaving) and make INFINITE BASKETS!!!

[Talya]

The ultimate battlefield control build:

Arcane Swordsage 19/Commoner 1
Necessary flaws: Chicken Infested
Necessary feats: Adaptive Style
Necessary spells: Time Stop, Overland Flight
Necessary gear: spell component pouch


Now, you can drop an infinite number of chickens on your enemy from above.

(Yes, I know you could do it better with walls of iron, but you really wouldn't have nearly as much fun as with chickens.)

[TehLivingDeath]

The Arcane Swordsage isn't just powerful, it's broken. You just need a spell and a feat and time stops forever.

[Chess435]

Wow. Where can I find this variant? Is it in ToB, or posted online?

[Flickerdart]

Wow. Where can I find this variant? Is it in ToB, or posted online?
It's in the adaptation section of Swordsage in the ToB, and gets like two sentences - so it should come as no surprise that it was poorly thought out.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It's in the adaptation section of Swordsage in the ToB, and gets like two sentences - so it should come as no surprise that it was poorly thought out.To be fair, half of the game's content is poorly thought out.

[Chess435]

It's in the adaptation section of Swordsage in the ToB, and gets like two sentences - so it should come as no surprise that it was poorly thought out.

:belkar: Mwahahahaha!

[Hiro Protagonest]

The ultimate battlefield control build:

Arcane Swordsage 19/Commoner 1
Necessary flaws: Chicken Infested
Necessary feats: Adaptive Style
Necessary spells: Time Stop, Overland Flight
Necessary gear: spell component pouch


Now, you can drop an infinite number of chickens on your enemy from above.

(Yes, I know you could do it better with walls of iron, but you really wouldn't have nearly as much fun as with chickens.)

Doesn't wall of iron have to be conjured on a solid surface?

[Flickerdart]

Doesn't wall of iron have to be conjured on a solid surface?
The requirement ("an environment that can support it") is only for Conjuration(Summoning) spells.

[Douglas]

The requirement ("an environment that can support it") is only for Conjuration(Summoning) spells.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration)

That is part of the general entire-school Conjuration description, and there's nothing that restricts it to the summoning subschool.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Academic, since we've already established that mass chickens > mass iron.

[Vandicus]

"If you prefer, you could instead emphasize the magical talents of the swordsage by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level."

It's not limited to maneuvers gained via the Swordsage class. Martial Study: Desert Wind, pick a spell in place of the maneuver gained, it doesn't matter that spells don't have disciplines because you're using the built-in spell substitution. The only requirement is that the spell replace a maneuver of equivalent level, school and discipline are irrelevant.

Even if it is what I'd call an overly liberal interpretation of the feat and variant combination, it can only be taken three times.

[Divide by Zero]

Even if it is what I'd call an overly liberal interpretation of the feat and variant combination, it can only be taken three times.

That's what heroics is for.

[Vandicus]

That's what heroics is for.

You misunderstand me, its not because the swordsage doesn't have enough feats, its because Martial Study may only be taken three times and Heroics does nothing to override this blocking, unless someone wishes to argue that power attack can be taken multiple times with heroics.

[JaronK]

I think the idea is that you take Heroics whenever you want a new spell, since you can always cast Heroics again. Thus, you cast Herorics and then cast the new spell each time you want access to something new.

If so, it would be clearly Tier 1 when using this trick.

JaronK

[Vandicus]

I think the idea is that you take Heroics whenever you want a new spell, since you can always cast Heroics again. Thus, you cast Herorics and then cast the new spell each time you want access to something new.

If so, it would be clearly Tier 1 when using this trick.

JaronK

I suppose that would work assuming such an interpretation, but if we're going that far I might as well point out the variant doesn't give the swordsage caster levels, and can't take practiced spellcaster because he doesn't actually cast spells, he uses maneuvers. :smalltongue:

*EDIT

Also, for more silliness, the feat says it may be taken three times, not that it can be unlearned and relearned under a cap of three. By the RAW once used three times, it can't be taken again through Heroics. Reminiscient of the drowning rules anyone?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I suppose that would work assuming such an interpretation, but if we're going that far I might as well point out the variant doesn't give the swordsage caster levels, and can't take practiced spellcaster because he doesn't actually cast spells, he uses maneuvers. :smalltongue:

I don't think caster level is relevant, as all of his spells are used as though they were maneuvers, so any effects would be based on his initiator level rather than a caster level.

[Vandicus]

I don't think caster level is relevant, as all of his spells are used as though they were maneuvers, so any effects would be based on his initiator level rather than a caster level.

Then we're treading into RAI aren't we? Nowhere is it stated that the spells change their effects to hinge on initiator level rather than caster level, it is only stated that the spells are now cast as maneuvers are.

[Vandicus]

I suppose I'll summarize my point here before stepping out of this thread. The possible interpretation of Martial Study as allowing a swordsage to learn new spells is just that, an interpretation of an very specifically worded feat. IMO we've descended into very foggy RAI which is no longer helpful in determining what tier this class is.

[Divide by Zero]

Then we're treading into RAI aren't we? Nowhere is it stated that the spells change their effects to hinge on initiator level rather than caster level, it is only stated that the spells are now cast as maneuvers are.

By that interpretation, it's completely incapable of using any spells at all, since they require a minimum caster level to use. I know calling on RAI is an appeal to authority, but come on now.

[kharmakazy]

I'm playing an arcane swordsage now. Level 7. Can the class be broken easily? Yes. Can it be played without being broken? Yes.

Here is my current spell list.



(ready 6)
4th level [Stone Shape]
3rd level [blacklight, shrink item, Snake's Swiftness - mass]
2nd level [Mountain Stance, glitterdust, baleful transposition]
1st level [ shield, unseen servnt, magic missile, Silent image, expedit retreat]


Playing with no school restrictions. Wiz/sorc list.
Note: My interpretation left that there was no relevant casting stat, so saves are pretty low. Solution: pick utility spells, or spells without saves!

Could I have taken polymorph and greater invis? Yes. But I prefer not to make my DM cry.

Mostly I spam shield and expeditious retreat every few minutes for de facto invocations. Stone shape and shrink items are very useful at will tho.

[stainboy]

Then we're treading into RAI aren't we? Nowhere is it stated that the spells change their effects to hinge on initiator level rather than caster level, it is only stated that the spells are now cast as maneuvers are.

The whole thing is RAI. There's barely any RAW to talk about. It's not even really a class so much a suggestion for something you might create yourself.

The only reason people sometimes talk about it like a fully-functional class is that it's in the same paragraph as the unarmed swordsage.

@kharmakazy: Glad to hear that actual play still doesn't work like the internet. Or at least, doesn't have to.

[SiuiS]

So, a friend of mine got my copy of yToB stolen and I haven't read it in years.

But what leads you folks to believe that you can refresh spells? I honestly assumed it was intended to replace the maneuvers mechanic with the spellcasting mechanic; includin slots being per day rather than per encounter/until refreshed. It makes a lot more sense and doesn't require any mor or less reading into the description than where you guys are going with this.

If I'm wrong though, I'll probably retrain one of my characters. swordsage would be more interesting and less overtly game destroying than my current ultimate magus bard wizard sublime chord. And I'd have an excuse to spam magic missile!

CRIKEY! nevermind, you're right. If used at maximum efficiency the thing is damn-near un-playable.
It makes me sad that I'm still looking at it as a nerf, however. Haha.

[kardar233]

Well, rather than looking at further ways to break the game by making Swordsage a better Sorc/Wiz, why don't we look at the ways it could be reasonably used and synergized?

It's up for debate, but I think that they could get Sanctified spells, which means Greater Luminous Armor for a nice Armor buff without losing Wis->AC. Assuming you have the actions to do so, you can take a lot of the load off the party cleric/buffer by giving you whatever Sorc/Wiz buffs you can think of. Can't think of too many useful ones ATM, but there's always Haste. For that matter, you can get into Swiftblade; unfortunately, getting its 9th or 10th level bonuses loses you 9th-level spells/maneuvers, but tradeoffs are tradeoffs.

On the other hand, I don't see many Stances or Boosts that work well with casting. Stance of Alacrity is godlike in this build though.

I think the way to go is to think of it as a gestalt Wizard/Swordsage, using the Wizard half as the more passive side.

[Yuukale]

Just a thought: add some duskblade levels with arcane strike and there's a gish that never runs out of spells to fuel the strikes xD

[term1nally s1ck]

Arcane swordsage is NOWHERE near tier 1.

Sorc is Tier 2 entirely because of the limited spells known.....swordsage knows *less*.

It can use them nearly at-will, but the lack of versatility, the main reason the Wizard is Batman, puts it as a Tier 2 and no higher.

The issue is that it is *so* easily broken, you don't need a high-opt player to make it so. A Good optimiser with a wizard will crush an arcane swordsage, simply due to excessive versatility and the ability to prepare a lot of defences *and* a lot of different attacks. ArcSwordsage gets nowhere near the number of options.

[Curious]

Arcane swordsage is NOWHERE near tier 1.

Sorc is Tier 2 entirely because of the limited spells known.....swordsage knows *less*.

It can use them nearly at-will, but the lack of versatility, the main reason the Wizard is Batman, puts it as a Tier 2 and no higher.

The issue is that it is *so* easily broken, you don't need a high-opt player to make it so. A Good optimiser with a wizard will crush an arcane swordsage, simply due to excessive versatility and the ability to prepare a lot of defences *and* a lot of different attacks. ArcSwordsage gets nowhere near the number of options.

Actually, yes he does. An Arcane Swordsage has six 9th level spells he can cast at any time, rechargeable as a full-round action. Since all maneuvers are Su or Ex abilities, he can choose a spell like, oh say, Wish. He can now use all Wiz/Sorc spells of 8th level or lower, and all Cleric spells of 7th level or lower. Better yet, there aren't any material costs because it's a Su ability, so he can spam it all day without a worry!

Arcane Swordsages are borked beyond belief. They are far more powerful than a wizard of equal level.

[FMArthur]

Yeah, even if they can't beat a flawlessly prepared fine-tuned wizard whose every spell changes depending on what the Swordsage does at any one moment (as all wizards-for-comparison turn out to be capable of) in a one-on-one combat at the beginning of the day, that has no influence on how utterly rigged they are in actual play. You would have to trip and dump all your books into an open sewer on your way to the game to not totally dominate with an Arcane Swordsage. An ASS would overshadow a wizard in a party. That's seriously messed up.

[Morph Bark]

While you may be right, the ability to recover maneuvers really breaks some stuff (especially Time Stop - an arcane swordsage could stop time forever easily, or more pragmatically, lay down a hyper-devastating barrage of Vortex of Teeth), and the ability to lead off with 9th level spells every combat seems pretty powerful.

Not to mention what he could do with Adaptive Style, too. In combination with Time Stop, the Arcane Swordsage will be quite the powerful one.

[faceroll]

Yeah, even if they can't beat a flawlessly prepared fine-tuned wizard whose every spell changes depending on what the Swordsage does at any one moment (as all wizards-for-comparison turn out to be capable of) in a one-on-one combat at the beginning of the day, that has no influence on how utterly rigged they are in actual play. You would have to trip and dump all your books into an open sewer on your way to the game to not totally dominate with an Arcane Swordsage. An ASS would overshadow a wizard in a party. That's seriously messed up.

The Arcane Swordsage, for the first 14 levels, will have 2 to 3 spells known for his highest level spells. Being able to spam enervate, black tentacles, orb of X (level d6 damage as touch attack and a nasty rider? yuck), Summon Monster Z, Animate Dead, etc., in a real game, is going to be quite gnarly. Heck, just SoD spam will mess crap up. Then once he gets limited wish and wish, it's all over.

And if he decides to use nova spells like arcane spell surge or spell matrix? Ugh. There's no draw back to using stuff like that.

[term1nally s1ck]

He has 6 different 9th level spells...and how many total spells?

Can he know shivering touch to deal with dragons with ease as well? Does he have access to dozens of utility spells from 1st through 5th level as well? Can he swap out his entire spell list with a single nights rest?
And don't include Wish, as anyone with access to a single cast of Wish can break a game instantly. Arcane Swordsage is no exception in that respect, but it's a straight up tie. With any thought, a Wizard can get infinite wishes, just like the swordsage. Don't confuse the spell being overpowered with the class being overpowered.

Something they both can do is hardly a point of comparison. Discounting the spells that cause free infinite loops and break games entirely (Wish, Miracle, Gate, Genesis, etc..), the wizard has more options.

The sorceror has access to everything that the wizard has. He can use each spell more often per day. Any one thing the wizard can do, the sorceror could also do. But any one sorceror cannot do anywhere near the same number of things that any one wizard can do. Same is true of the arcane swordsage. He can do *some* things much more often than the wizard. He cannot do all the things the wizard can.

In a party with a pile of Tier 2s, at full optimisation, then the entire party would have a ton of defences, a ton of one-word answers to a lot of problems, and while the swordsage can do it 'for free', he has a few less defences and a few less answers. It's a tradeoff, and given that unless you are looking at lots (7-8) of encounters with no chance to escape, rest, or anything, most casters still have spells left, even if not their ideal ones...the situation is VERY specific and not particularly common.


I'd like to remind you of the description, from the tier list itself.

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.


Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

The description for Tier 2 is EXACTLY the Arcane Swordsage. Absurdly powerful....at some things.

Remember, this assumes HIGH optimisation. An Arcane swordsage requires minimal optimisation to smash a campaign, but its optimisation ceiling is not as high as one of the more flexible classes, because you can't have as many answers and 'No' buttons.

An Arcane Swordsage would overshadow a poorly optimised wizard in actual play. Do not mistake that for being better. Take a game for example. If two players with low skill play two different characters, one very simple and easy, and one super skilful and difficult to use, it is guaranteed that the one playing the easy champ will do well. That does not mean the harder character is worse, just harder to use well.

[JaronK]

But the fact that he turns Maneuvers into Spells means Martial Study gives him a new spell of his choice... and he can cast Heroics, thus giving him Martial Study for the duration. This means if he spends two rounds he can spontaneously cast anything off the Sor/Wiz list. THAT would make him T1.

JaronK

[Chess435]

But the fact that he turns Maneuvers into Spells means Martial Study gives him a new spell of his choice... and he can cast Heroics, thus giving him Martial Study for the duration. This means if he spends two rounds he can spontaneously cast anything off the Sor/Wiz list. THAT would make him T1.

JaronK


:eek:


That is crazyawesome! Now to convince my DM to let me play as one....... :smallbiggrin:

[faceroll]

And don't include Wish, as anyone with access to a single cast of Wish can break a game instantly. Arcane Swordsage is no exception in that respect, but it's a straight up tie. With any thought, a Wizard can get infinite wishes, just like the swordsage. Don't confuse the spell being overpowered with the class being overpowered.

But all the wizard has are spells and feats.
Anyway, we're looking at Wish because it gives you the ability to use any wizard spell of 8th level or lower, at will, without cost, not because it can give you +9001 to you weapon.


Something they both can do is hardly a point of comparison. Discounting the spells that cause free infinite loops and break games entirely (Wish, Miracle, Gate, Genesis, etc..), the wizard has more options.

Hmm, Wish, Gate, Genesis, Time Stop, and Shapechange. Looks pretty gravy to me. Still got one floating.


An Arcane Swordsage would overshadow a poorly optimised wizard in actual play. Do not mistake that for being better. Take a game for example. If two players with low skill play two different characters, one very simple and easy, and one super skilful and difficult to use, it is guaranteed that the one playing the easy champ will do well. That does not mean the harder character is worse, just harder to use well.

A wizard's versatility is only useful if the wizard can accurately predict what's coming up. Much of the time, he can't, or can be easily misled. A typical optimized wizard has pretty much a spell list that looks like a sorcerer's. Even if the wizard prepares a spell for every occasion, he only gets to cast it once. The Swordsage just picks up the crowbar spells and solves every problem with extremely judicious application of it. Do you know how many problems Disintegrate solves?

[Jack_Simth]

Actually, yes he does. An Arcane Swordsage has six 9th level spells he can cast at any time, rechargeable as a full-round action. Since all maneuvers are Su or Ex abilities, he can choose a spell like, oh say, Wish. He can now use all Wiz/Sorc spells of 8th level or lower, and all Cleric spells of 7th level or lower. Better yet, there aren't any material costs because it's a Su ability, so he can spam it all day without a worry!

At 20th, sure (although he does have to either need to also grab both Time Stop and Adaptive style, or be limited to every other turn)... but at 20th, the Truenamer has a comperable issue (due to easy Gate spam).

Now try comparing things at 1st, 5th, 10th, and 15th. Over the course of one encounter, the Arcane Swordsage is close to even with a Sorcerer (just about the defining tier-2). The Arcane Swordsage is a bit better... but not enough that he can deal with the Wizard's long-term flexibility.


Arcane Swordsages are borked beyond belief. They are far more powerful than a wizard of equal level.
Oh, yes. There's a reason the TO board didn't bother with them. They are a broken class. But raw power does not a tier-1 make. Tier-1 can break the game in a very large number of ways. Tier-2 can break the game, but only in a small number of ways for any particular build.

Can an Arcane Swordsage-10 break the game? Absolutely. Doesn't take much work to do it, even. Can a given Arcane Swordsage-10 break the game in 30 different ways? No. Can a given Wizard-10? Yes. That's the difference between the two tiers.

[faceroll]

Can an Arcane Swordsage-10 break the game? Absolutely. Doesn't take much work to do it, even. Can a given Arcane Swordsage-10 break the game in 30 different ways? No. Can a given Wizard-10? Yes. That's the difference between the two tiers.

Huh. I feel like if you picked your spells right, an Arcane Swordsage could break the game as many ways as the wizard simply through judicious application of the same broken spells that show up in a wizard's spell book. What's it matter if one casting of perfect spell A will solve a problem when a couple (dozen) castings of nearly as good spell B will do the job?

[Amnestic]

Can an Arcane Swordsage-10 break the game? Absolutely. Doesn't take much work to do it, even. Can a given Arcane Swordsage-10 break the game in 30 different ways? No. Can a given Wizard-10? Yes. That's the difference between the two tiers.

Isn't Heroics a 2nd level spell? :smallconfused: Seems to me that once they get that (3rd level?), they can do everything a wizard could plus extra because, you know, infinite spells per day.

[term1nally s1ck]

No, he will NOT break the game as easily. A Wizard has about 5 times as many options as an arcane swordsage, A swordsage 10 knows what, 10 spells? A Wizard 10 knows at least 22 plus Int, plus any scribed. He has up to 20-30 spells prepared. These can all be different.

The swordsage 10 will break *some* circumstances, but has limitations on what he can immediately solve. He *can* use any spell in the game using Heroics and 3 rounds worth of actions (Heroics, adaptive style, then casting the actual spell), if you accept that as an option, (which by RAW is not necessarily true, it's debatable at best).

If you need 3 rounds to use any given spell, you're not particularly flexible. In high-Opt D&D, where things kill you VERY VERY fast, 3 rounds is an eternity.

It's a clever option, but it's VERY risky and situational. Brilliant for buffing with long duration spells, terrible for most other situations.

At 9th level spells, every caster with access to the broken spells of doom can completely break a campaign world. This is true for every caster no matter the tier. A Sorc can do it as well as a Wizard, but is Tier 2 because he's not as flexible in other ways that are actually measurable.

A Truenamer, the class with no tier, can break the game at L20 because infinite Gate. Is it the best class in the game? Hell no. It's probably the worst. Do not confuse specific spells being b0rked as a measure of a caster's strength. Anything that can cast Gate, Shapechange, Wish, Miracle, or Genesis can crush any campaign world when it gets access to those. The Tiers are a measure of every level of the class, not just level 20, and before broken spells, the arcane swordsage is just not as versatile.

[Jack_Simth]

Huh. I feel like if you picked your spells right, an Arcane Swordsage could break the game as many ways as the wizard simply through judicious application of the same broken spells that show up in a wizard's spell book. What's it matter if one casting of perfect spell A will solve a problem when a couple (dozen) castings of nearly as good spell B will do the job?Time, action cost, and the ability to do arrange to have all of your "Oh *&^%!" things that you need only very rarely on scrolls/wands/et cetera.

If you're a 5th level Swordsage, you've got... what, one 3rd level spell manuever known, three second level spell manuevers known, and six first or 0th level spell manuevers known, of which you can prepare a flat 6 (and you have no built-in way to use the same thing twice in a row in the middle of a fight). You also have no built-in method of exceeding these limits.

Before any type of specialization, feats, ACF, or Scribing, the Wizard will have two 3rd level spells known, four 2nd level spells known, and 5+Int Mod 1st level spells known - and if you need to, you have a built-in way to use the same thing twice in a row in the middle of a fight (and a built-in way to arrange to have stuff you don't use often available, as well, in Scribe Scroll). You also have a slightly expensive, but built in, way of exceeding these limits.

So if the Arcane Swordsage needs to spam Fireball, he's spitting out one fireball every other round. The round he's not casting initiating a Fireball, he's taking a full-round action to recover it (effectively doing nothing).

If the Wizard needs to spam Fireball (which he can't do for very long), he just does it. If he knows in advance he'll need to do so, he takes a feat, spends some coin, and has 50 Fireballs he can spam right in a row.

If the Arcane Swordsage-5 who has Fireball needs Fly, he's out of luck.

If the Wizard-5 who has Fireball needs Fly, he's got a built-in method (scribe scroll) for having arranged to have it available.

Ignoring broken items (which both can access), broken spells (which both can access), and cheesy tactics (which both can access), the Wizard has more ways to deal with things.

This is the defining difference between Tier-1 and Tier-2. The Arcane Swordsage happens to be Tier-2 (high for Tier-2, don't get me wrong, but still Tier-2). Is Tier-2 broken when built that way? Yes, absolutely. Is it easier to make a broken Tier-2 Arcane Swordsage than it is to make a broken Tier-1 Wizard? Yes absolutely.

Yet the Wizard is still Tier-1, and the Arcane Swordsage is still Tier-2.

Sure, if you pick your spell manuevers exactly right, you can come up with cheesy options that permit you to access anything on a few round's notice. If you pick your feats exactly right, a Wizard can access any spell in his spellbook immediately (seriously - look up Uncanny Forethought, from Exemplars of Evil, as well as Practiced Spellcaster to deal with the caster level penalty).

Tier-2 can have cheese available. That doesn't make it Tier-1.

[Terazul]

So if we ignore all the things that would make it Tier 1, it's Tier 2? :smallconfused:

[JaronK]

Jack... you've missed the Heroics trick. That means an Arcane Swordsage with Heroics as his spell can use that spell to then get any spell he wants. Doesn't have fly? Get it. Doesn't have Alter Self? Get that too. All it takes is one standard action to get the spell, then a second standard action to cast it. That's it. And that's the whole darn Wiz/Sorc list.

Normally one broken trick doesn't make you T2, but when that one trick is "become T1" there's sort of an exception to be made here.

JaronK

[faceroll]

I didn't think fireball and fly were what made wizards T1; it was fireball and fly AND shivering touch and lesser planar binding.

I'm not really sure why you're saddling our poor swordsage with fireball. Though the whole 1 spell known of highest level at odd swordsage levels is a bummer, he will have 3 at even levels. I feel like at pretty much any level, 3 spells known of the highest level will get you through just about any situation if you use enough of them.

Unlimited spell casting seems like a quantitative difference big enough to result in a qualitative on.

That, and the Heroics hack.

[Quietus]

Can a swordsage not scribe a martial script of its spell-things?


If Heroics is allowed, I think that ASS gets tier1 status. It can use all the same tricks to view the future and prepare. Otherwise, it's very high T2.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Heroics > Martial Study was brought up on the first page of this very thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208701#22)

First of all, once the Arcane Swordsage gets Heroics, he automatically has access to every arcane spell in the game of up to the highest level of maneuvers he can use. Give him two rounds, and he's casting the perfect spell for the situation.

Second, this gives him (and his party) an infinite number of long-duration buffs (easily hour/level and longer, maybe even 10 min/level). Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mighty Wallop, Protection from Energy, Energy Immunity, Superior Resistance, Mind Blank, Greater Mage Armor, Heroism, Protection from Arrows, Magic Circle against Alignment, Nondetection, Phantom Steed, Keen Edge, Dolorous Blow, Shrink Item, Alter Self, Spider Climb, See Invisibility... I'm not even going to keep going, that's just an insane number of buffs. Martial maneuvers are always either extraordinary or supernatural, so Dispel Magic won't work on any of that, only a Disjunction or AMF can remove his buffs. The whole party has Haste every fight, regardless of how many fights they get in a day. On top of that, while adventuring he can take a few minutes to buff the whole party with their favorite Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace or Bear's Endurance, etc. before they kick in the next door. That's of course after he's used Clairaudience/Clairvoyance or similar to see exactly what is on the other side of that door. He can even Summon Monster or Summon Undead the biggest thing available to charge in first and absorb all of their initial attacks.

When you have a character who can spam Disintegrate and Ruby Ray of Reversal an unlimited number of times, no dungeon crawl could possibly stand against them. Between spamming crowd controls without thought of daily resources, infinitely buffing the party, and having unlimited uses of the highest level of spells available to the party level... Yeah, an Arcane Swordsage is definitely at the upper end of Tier 1.

[term1nally s1ck]

Jack... you've missed the Heroics trick. That means an Arcane Swordsage with Heroics as his spell can use that spell to then get any spell he wants. Doesn't have fly? Get it. Doesn't have Alter Self? Get that too. All it takes is one standard action to get the spell, then a second standard action to cast it. That's it. And that's the whole darn Wiz/Sorc list.

Normally one broken trick doesn't make you T2, but when that one trick is "become T1" there's sort of an exception to be made here.

JaronK

No, it takes one standard to cast heroics, one full-round to prepare it *if* you took adaptive style, and one standard action to cast it.

And a Wizard who can only cast one spell every third round? I'm not impressed.

Remember, he can have *one* spell from heroics, since successive castings replace, not overlap. If he wants a new one? You gotta spend the 3 rounds again.

If a Wizard uses his divinations to determine that he needs 3 spells, he prepares 3 spells. If an Arcane swordsage divines that he needs 3 spells, then unless he already picked them, he will need 9 rounds to use them all. That is not versatility. That is a weak attempt to replicate versatility.
'Oh, I can do as much damage as an ubercharger if I take 3 times as long to do it'. No, the ubercharger is better at dealing damage. The wizard is immediately flexible, the swordsage is not.

And deciding that since all the maneuvers listed are Ex or Su, the spells he can learn are Ex or Su, is completely made up. The most likely ruling would be Sp.

And, since we all seem to be basing a trick off of Heroics, I'd like to point out that it DOES NOT WORK BY RAW. Martial Study requires you to select a discipline of Martial Maneuvers, and select one from within that discipline. You cannot select a spell, as it is not part of any of the disciplines.

[Jack_Simth]

Isn't Heroics a 2nd level spell? :smallconfused: Seems to me that once they get that (3rd level?), they can do everything a wizard could plus extra because, you know, infinite spells per day.

Jack... you've missed the Heroics trick. That means an Arcane Swordsage with Heroics as his spell can use that spell to then get any spell he wants. Doesn't have fly? Get it. Doesn't have Alter Self? Get that too. All it takes is one standard action to get the spell, then a second standard action to cast it. That's it. And that's the whole darn Wiz/Sorc list.

Normally one broken trick doesn't make you T2, but when that one trick is "become T1" there's sort of an exception to be made here.

JaronK
Actually, I didn't miss the Heroics trick. The heroics trick uses a relatively tortured chain of logic to spend three rounds to have something available (round 1: Initiate Heroics. Round 2: Recover the thing you got with the feat. Round 3: Actually use the thing you wanted.).

If you think one exceedingly broken trick changes a tier, I'd like to introduce you to an Old Ex-Paladin-1 with a little Pizazz(u). Paladins are not Tier negative 30 because of that one trick.

So if we ignore all the things that would make it Tier 1, it's Tier 2? :smallconfused:
I'm not really sure why you're saddling our poor swordsage with fireball.These both have the same answer:

I'm playing a variation of same-game with this.

When I saddled the Swordsage with Fireball, I also saddled the Wizard with Fireball. I could reverse it, and do the same thing with Fly and Suggestion, or go it a different route, and do the same thing with Rope Trick and Spider Climb, or even at 1st level, with Charm Person and Grease. It's a simple example to demonstrate a property.

Under equivalent sets of source restrictions, and similar sets of cheese restrictions, a well thought-out Wizard with a skilled Wizard player will do better than a well thought-out Swordsage with a skilled Swordsage player at most levels in most circumstances. Certain circumstances can change this; for instance, if a specific DM favors grindfests with little-to-no downtime, then yes, the Arcane Swordsage will show a little better in that campaign.

[term1nally s1ck]

The Heroics trick is irrelevant, as it doesn't work.

[Morph Bark]

The Heroics trick is irrelevant, as it doesn't work.

And why wouldn't it? It's not as if the Arcane Swordsage completely foregoes maneuvers, he simply has all arcane spells on his list of maneuvers to choose from, as he learns and readies spells exactly like the maneuvers he learns.

[Jack_Simth]

And why wouldn't it? It's not as if the Arcane Swordsage completely foregoes maneuvers, he simply has all arcane spells on his list of maneuvers to choose from, as he learns and readies spells exactly like the maneuvers he learns.
Because the feat you're using Heroics to give you does not make use of the adaptation section that permits you to learn spells as maneuvers. It does not use your list of maneuvers for when you're selecting the maneuver. The Martial Study feat (Tome of Battle, page 31-32) you're gaining the use of through Heroics says "...when you gain this feat, you must choose a discipline..." and "...Select any maneuver from the chosen discipline..." - spells don't have disciplines associated with them, ergo, they're not on the list of things you can pick via Martial Study.

[Terazul]

If you think one exceedingly broken trick changes a tier, I'd like to introduce you to an Old Ex-Paladin-1 with a little Pizazz(u). Paladins are not Tier negative 30 because of that one trick.


I dunno, I kinda thought it was the whole free, at-will Wish to replicate all the spells they don't have with no per day limitation as the giga-crowbar that changed it. And your argument against heroics is "it takes several rounds longer than a wizard". At least the Arcane SS can do it at all, in addition to in the middle of the day, as opposed to waiting 8 hours.

[Jack_Simth]

I dunno, I kinda thought it was the whole free, at-will Wish to replicate all the spells they don't have with no per day limitation as the giga-crowbar that changed it. And your argument against heroics is "it takes several rounds longer than a wizard". At least the Arcane SS can do it at all, in addition to in the middle of the day, as opposed to waiting 8 hours.The Swordsage actually can't do it at all anyway. See the ninja post.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you prefer, you could emphasize the magical talents of the swordsage by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level.

If you have martial adept levels, this maneuver becomes one of your maneuvers known.
Heroics > Martial Study (discipline irrelevant) > learn an arcane spell in place of a maneuver as per the adaptation. Yes, the Heroics trick works.

[JaronK]

I dunno, I kinda thought it was the whole free, at-will Wish to replicate all the spells they don't have with no per day limitation as the giga-crowbar that changed it. And your argument against heroics is "it takes several rounds longer than a wizard". At least the Arcane SS can do it at all, in addition to in the middle of the day, as opposed to waiting 8 hours.

The Wish thing doesn't pop up until level 18, which is hardly relevant.

But the Heroics thing? Even if it does take three rounds to cast anything you want at all with greater flexibility than most Wizards could dream of... yeah, that's Tier 1. The "one trick" rule doesn't apply, as that's roughly like saying the Wizard's one trick is casting spells. Nor is this insane optimization... every Arcane Swordsage at level 4 could do this as long as he learns Heroics.

For every possible situation, the Arcane Swordsage can get exactly the right spell to deal with it... and he can do it pretty much on the fly. Just have the spells you need to cast quickly (combat spells, generally) as spells known, plus Heroics, and for everything else there's Heroics. For extra insult, use Heroics to Shapechange into a Solar when you get to sufficient level, so you can have fun with the Cleric list as well.

JaronK

[term1nally s1ck]

Heroics > Martial Study (discipline irrelevant) > learn an arcane spell in place of a maneuver as per the adaptation. Yes, the Heroics trick works.

Martial study, the feat you intend to use, requires you to select a maneuver from a discipline. You must pick a discipline. You can't get a spell, because it is not part of one. No, it doesn't.


The Wish thing doesn't pop up until level 18, which is hardly relevant.

But the Heroics thing? Even if it does take three rounds to cast anything you want at all with greater flexibility than most Wizards could dream of... yeah, that's Tier 1. The "one trick" rule doesn't apply, as that's roughly like saying the Wizard's one trick is casting spells. Nor is this insane optimization... every Arcane Swordsage at level 4 could do this as long as he learns Heroics.

For every possible situation, the Arcane Swordsage can get exactly the right spell to deal with it... and he can do it pretty much on the fly. Just have the spells you need to cast quickly (combat spells, generally) as spells known, plus Heroics, and for everything else there's Heroics. For extra insult, use Heroics to Shapechange into a Solar when you get to sufficient level, so you can have fun with the Cleric list as well.

JaronK

No, he cannot use a trick that doesn't work.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Martial study, the feat you intend to use, requires you to select a maneuver from a discipline. You must pick a discipline. You can't get a spell, because it is not part of one. No, it doesn't.

A Swordsage can only pick maneuvers from the Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw disciplines. An Arcane Swordsage has the option of picking an arcane spell instead of a maneuver, overriding the default limitation on disciplines. Just the same, Martial Study would grant him a maneuver, but he has the option of picking an arcane spell instead of that maneuver, again overriding the default discipline limitation. It does indeed work, otherwise the entire arcane swordsage adaptation would malfunction because spells are not among those disciplines he's normally restricted to.

The adaptation specifically adds an option of replacing a swordsage maneuver known with an arcane spell of equivalent level. Martial Study adds a maneuver to those known for whatever martial adept class he has, i.e. it grants him a swordsage maneuver known, so he has the option of using the substitution granted by that adaptation to pick a spell in place of that. Disciplines are completely irrelevant.

[Curious]

Martial study, the feat you intend to use, requires you to select a maneuver from a discipline. You must pick a discipline. You can't get a spell, because it is not part of one. No, it doesn't.



No, he cannot use a trick that doesn't work.

Sorry, the ASS treats spells as maneuvers, so it does work.

[Jack_Simth]

So we've got a number of people going over extremely fine details to determine if it does or does not work by RAW, because it's not crystal clear. I'd call that a bit of chinancery or tortured rules interpretation, then, regardless of the ultimate outcome of that argument.

And if you're basing the decision of the tier of a class based on something that's a bit of chinancery or tortured rules interpretation, it's not a good measure of the power of the class. Hence Paladins still being... tier 4, I think it was ... despite the existence of a particular loophole.

[term1nally s1ck]

But it does NOT give them a Discipline. And the feat EXPLICITLY states that you must pick a discpline, and *then* you get a maneuver FROM THAT DISCIPLINE.

Specific beats general. In general, the arcane swordsage can learn a spell instead of a maneuver. The martial study feat can specifically only grant maneuvers from the chosen discipline.

I suggest you go back to read the feat, because if you read the first paragraph in the feat, it is EXTREMELY clear how it works. There is *no* ambiguity.

You pick a discipline. You then pick a maneuver from said discipline. You now have access to that maneuver.

Nowhere in that can you replace it by a spell, because spells have no discipline.

[MeeposFire]

You do realize you all are trying to argue RAW with something that has no real RAW since the adaption is so vague? You are all operating under different ideas on how things work without an actual way of figuring out which is right considering it is too vague to know.

[term1nally s1ck]

It says nothing about giving them a discipline, so assuming they get one would be houseruling. From the little RAW we have, that trick does not work, so we can discount it from the discussion on power level. Is there anyone at all who disagrees with the idea that if the swordsage does not get to use heroics to replicate any spell, it would be tier 2?

[Delcan]

You do realize you all are trying to argue RAW with something that has no real RAW since the adaption is so vague? You are all operating under different ideas on how things work without an actual way of figuring out which is right considering it is too vague to know.

Um... yeah, folks. See above. You're arguing deep RAW/RAI semantics about something that was only mentioned as a possibility in a few lines of text. You can't apply RAW/RAI to something that's not RAW/RAI at all - the only thing you can do is make an ad hoc judgment on it. DM fiat, end of story.

Frankly, the ultimate ad hoc judgment on Arcane Swordsage in this thread is that it's munchkin bait, much like any Tier 1 or Tier 2 class. Arguing which of those tiers it's in seems pointless.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I stand by my interpretation that the arcane swordsage variant allows a character to trade any swordsage maneuver, regardless of source, for a spell of equivalent level. If you would gain a maneuver known, you can instead gain a spell known, and since spell =/= maneuver it suffers no discipline limitations. The spells are not treated as maneuvers, they are "cast" as if they were martial maneuvers. You are not gaining a spell as though it were a martial maneuver, you are gaining a spell in place of gaining a martial maneuver. If you would gain a swordsage maneuver, regardless of what discipline that maneuver must fall under, you may instead gain a spell of equivalent level.

[term1nally s1ck]

Go. Read. The. Feat.

It is very very very specific. There is a 'must' in the actual text.

[Redshirt Army]

Go. Read. The. Feat.

It is very very very specific. There is a 'must' in the actual text.

My reading.

-You cast Heroics.

-You choose, oh, let's say Mountain Tombstone Strike.

-You then, as you have the ability to exchange maneuvers learned with spells, instead learn... let's say Gate.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Go. Read. The. Feat.

It is very very very specific. There is a 'must' in the actual text.

Go. Read. The. Adaptation.

"...giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level."

Restrictions on what disciplines you can pull maneuvers from have absolutely nothing to do with what spells you learn, because spells are not maneuvers. If you would learn a maneuver, you have the option of learning a spell in place of it.

[darksolitaire]

Can an Arcane Swordsage-10 break the game? Absolutely. Doesn't take much work to do it, even. Can a given Arcane Swordsage-10 break the game in 30 different ways? No. Can a given Wizard-10? Yes. That's the difference between the two tiers.

Please explain to me how wizard-10 can break the game in 30 different ways. I'm completely sincere. I want to know.

[faceroll]

Please explain to me how wizard-10 can break the game in 30 different ways. I'm completely sincere. I want to know.

Teleport- go wherever you like unless there's DM fiat
Wall of Salt- Conjure thousands of gp worth of instantaneously created salt
Lesser Planar Binding- succubus, nightmares, fiendish familiars
Shivering Touch- kill anything not immune to ability damage or cold damage
Magic Jar- take possession of anything that's not warded against it, like that nightmare you bound or that heavy bruiser giant you encounter
Dominate Person- Requires specific protections, can totally mess up a campaign or an encounter
Polymorph- put it on a party member like a monk, for shenanigans, or use it to become pun-pun
Explosive Runes- if you have the downtime, you can do damage: all of it
Shrink Item- see operation thunderclap (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205974)
Fabricate- free mundane items

Now just find 2 more spells like each of those (not that hard, given the splats)

For instance, we've got Alter Self and Minor Creation, which, depending on the wizard's race, get us and AC of 30ish or 996 doses of black lotus extract, respectively.

[term1nally s1ck]

Go. Read. The. Adaptation.

"...giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level."

Restrictions on what disciplines you can pull maneuvers from have absolutely nothing to do with what spells you learn, because spells are not maneuvers. If you would learn a maneuver, you have the option of learning a spell in place of it.

So the part of the feat where you select a discipline and get it's key skill as a class skill just vanishes? The part where you must select a discipline just vanishes, and the feat condenses down to the 1/3 part that can be changed by the adaptation?

Yeah, no. That's a houserule, and a BIG one.

[Quietus]

So the part of the feat where you select a discipline and get it's key skill as a class skill just vanishes? The part where you must select a discipline just vanishes, and the feat condenses down to the 1/3 part that can be changed by the adaptation?

Yeah, no. That's a houserule, and a BIG one.

I pick the discipline of Evocation, and select the maneuver Contingency. Problem solved, yes? I mean, as maneuvers, the spells have to have disciplines, So, I pick "Whatever discipline the spell want is in", then take the spell I want.

[Morph Bark]

I pick the discipline of Evocation, and select the maneuver Contingency. Problem solved, yes? I mean, as maneuvers, the spells have to have disciplines, So, I pick "Whatever discipline the spell want is in", then take the spell I want.

That is one of the most contrived readings I've ever heard about, especially since "school" =/= "discipline".

[faceroll]

My reading.

-You cast Heroics.

-You choose, oh, let's say Mountain Tombstone Strike.

-You then, as you have the ability to exchange maneuvers learned with spells, instead learn... let's say Gate.

Why doesn't this work?

[Morph Bark]

Why doesn't this work?

Because you cannot exchange maneuvers for spells whenever you want. You can learn spells in place of a maneuver, yes, but you can only exchange a maneuver for a spell upon leveling up (and only at even levels).

[term1nally s1ck]

And, as you can learn a spell 'in place of' a maneuver, you do NOT get it as a maneuver. It is still a spell.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"...giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level."

If you would learn a maneuver, you can instead learn a spell in place of it. It doesn't say anywhere that it's only on leveling up.

For Martial Study, you still pick a discipline, you still get the class skill, but then instead of gaining a maneuver from that discipline, you gain a spell of equivalent level. A restriction on apples doesn't apply to oranges, so the spell doesn't have to be from that discipline.

[faceroll]

Because you cannot exchange maneuvers for spells whenever you want. You can learn spells in place of a maneuver, yes, but you can only exchange a maneuver for a spell upon leveling up (and only at even levels).


"If you prefer, you could instead emphasize the magical talents of the swordsage by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place
of maneuvers of equivalent level."

[term1nally s1ck]

You don't have the ability to learn spells in place of maneuvers *after* you learn the maneuver.

You have the ability to learn spells instead of maneuvers at that time.

Sadly, Martial Study specifically limits you to one discipline, so you can't pick anything that is not a maneuver from that discipline.

A Swordsage can learn maneuvers from the setting sun discipline instead of maneuvers from the shadow hand discipline. Doesn't mean he can select shadow hand as his focus on martial study, then learn a setting sun maneuver instead.

Specific trumps general. Always. The specific limitation on which discipline you can pick from trumps the general ability to learn spells instead.

[Quietus]

That is one of the most contrived readings I've ever heard about, especially since "school" =/= "discipline".

Well, as a maneuver, each spell has to have a discipline. Ask which discipline it is, then take Matial Study (that). Seriously, how is this hard?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You gain Martial Study, you can gain a maneuver from that discipline, or you can gain a spell of equivalent level. Again, restrictions on apples don't apply to oranges, so the discipline restriction on the maneuver doesn't apply to a spell.

[Merellis]

Wouldn't the DM of the game just do what they do with Pun-Pun and have someone who already did the trick appear and go "Sorry, I thought of this first. :smallamused:" Followed by multiple fireballs exploding and a Balor appearing next to you with enough buffs that anyone with arcane sight goes blind.

:smallredface:

[Coidzor]

Wouldn't the DM of the game just do what they do with Pun-Pun and have someone who already did the trick appear and go "Sorry, I thought of this first. :smallamused:" Followed by multiple fireballs exploding and a Balor appearing next to you with enough buffs that anyone with arcane sight goes blind.

:smallredface:

DM? :smallconfused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

So the part of the feat where you select a discipline and get it's key skill as a class skill just vanishes? The part where you must select a discipline just vanishes, and the feat condenses down to the 1/3 part that can be changed by the adaptation?

Yeah, no. That's a houserule, and a BIG one.
Arcane Swordsage is a houserule.

Wouldn't the DM of the game just do what they do with Pun-Pun and have someone who already did the trick appear and go "Sorry, I thought of this first. :smallamused:" Followed by multiple fireballs exploding and a Balor appearing next to you with enough buffs that anyone with arcane sight goes blind.

:smallredface:

That only worked because it was a level 4 build compared to Pun-Pun's 5. Pun-Pun is a level 1 build now.

[Merellis]

That only worked because it was a level 4 build compared to Pun-Pun's 5. Pun-Pun is a level 1 build now.

I swear there is a post here somewhere on it being Pun-Pun appearing instead of Pazuzu.

Unless there is another lvl 1 build for it that I'm not aware of.

[Morph Bark]

"If you prefer, you could instead emphasize the magical talents of the swordsage by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place
of maneuvers of equivalent level."

Hence why I said you can learn spells in place of a maneuver, yes, but you can only exchange a maneuver for a spell upon leveling up (and only at even levels).

This guy says it better perhaps:


You don't have the ability to learn spells in place of maneuvers *after* you learn the maneuver.

[Redshirt Army]

"If you prefer, you could instead emphasize the magical talents of the swordsage by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level."

In place of Mountain Tombstone Strike, you learn an arcane spell of an equivalent level (Gate).

No, I'm serious, I don't see a way for this to not apply to Martial Study while still applying to leveling up. (Of course, it's probably not that hard to argue that the variant doesn't work at all as written, since its literally two lines of text, but that's not your argument.)

[Hiro Protagonest]

I swear there is a post here somewhere on it being Pun-Pun appearing instead of Pazuzu.

Unless there is another lvl 1 build for it that I'm not aware of.

I thought that was the paladin build. This one's a level 1 psion.

[term1nally s1ck]

Well, as a maneuver, each spell has to have a discipline. Ask which discipline it is, then take Matial Study (that). Seriously, how is this hard?

You can learn spells 'in place of' maneuvers. Nothing about turning them into a maneuver. In fact, if it did turn them into maneuvers, it would say 'As a maneuver', which it does not. Spells remain spells, you just get to start using them instead of maneuvers.


You gain Martial Study, you can gain a maneuver from that discipline, or you can gain a spell of equivalent level. Again, restrictions on apples don't apply to oranges, so the discipline restriction on the maneuver doesn't apply to a spell.

Restrictions specifically made by a feat apply. That's like saying that feat X, which is a feat for normal spellcasters, has a restriction on the type of spell it affects. Using the Psionic-magic transparency, it can apply to psionics..but because apples aren't oranges, it can affect every psionic power ever written.

I'll walk you through the process.

You take martial study.

You *must* pick a discipline.

You gain the key skill as a class skill.

You then select one maneuver from that discipline. Since you're an arcane swordsage, you can select spells instead, but YOU MUST STILL MEET PREREQUISITES. You must be the appropriate level to learn the spell, and in this case you must pick a maneuver/spell from a specific discipline. Since no spells have disciplines unless specifically houseruled to have them, there are no spells on the list.

That maneuver becomes one of your maneuvers known.


Arcane Swordsage is a houserule.

Since we have a houserule in this game we'd better houserule everything else. Please provide an argument based on logic and ruletext.



"If you prefer, you could instead emphasize the magical talents of the swordsage by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level."

In place of Mountain Tombstone Strike, you learn an arcane spell of an equivalent level (Gate).

No, I'm serious, I don't see a way for this to not apply to Martial Study while still applying to leveling up. (Of course, it's probably not that hard to argue that the variant doesn't work at all as written, since its literally two lines of text, but that's not your argument.)

Because martial study says, in the VERY FIRST SENTENCE, 'You must pick a discipline.'

If you pick a spell, you are not selecting a maneuver from that discipline, and you are not following the text on the feat, you are houseruling the feat to have an effect above and beyond the effect it is supposed to have.

I'd like to toss out one more thing. If you're a wizard, you can now use heroics to cast any spell from 1/2 your max level.

If you're a Fighter, you can now apparently learn any spell as a 1/encounter ability for each feat you have.

The adaptation is of the class. Not the feat. Assuming that since you are using a class adaptation that every feat that applies to that class changes is not necessarily true.

For example, say I'm using the PHB II shapeshift druid adaptation. I can't now take any feats that require me to have Wild Shape, because I do not have that ability. The feats don't change to have a pre-req of 'shapeshift ability'.

[term1nally s1ck]

Fixing the bug.