Is Martial Study/Martial Stance worth it for a druid?

[Talya]

I'm playing the following character in an FR game: Lesser Aasimar Druid of Lurue, with Vow of Poverty and a Unicorn Animal Companion

One of the house rules is the DM has changed feats to every odd level, instead of every 3rd level. This means for a change I'll end up with a lot of feats.

He has banned Natural Spell (something I approve of anyway), but I'm still thinking of being a nasty wildshaper when I'm not casting spells (Exalted Wildshape as a free feat from VOP helps.) With a possibility of up to three maneuvers and a few stances, are there any maneuvers or stances that really synergize well with wildshaping?

[deuxhero]

Teleporting bear!

[Vandicus]

Well Thicket of Blades is a wonderful stance(although you'll need to burn a Martial Study on a prereq) for anyone in melee, subject to the DM's interpretation of whether or not it applies to tumbling.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wolf Fang Strike is good for anything with at least two natural attacks. Leopards, panthers, and other cats that use the leopard stat block get a +8 bonus on jump checks, so Sudden Leap is a decent choice.

[Salanmander]

A lot of boosts work really well for things with multiple natural attacks. For example, burning blade can be quite good for bears (or charging lions!).

[Jack_Simth]

I'm playing the following character in an FR game: Lesser Aasimar Druid of Lurue, with Vow of Poverty and a Unicorn Animal Companion

One of the house rules is the DM has changed feats to every odd level, instead of every 3rd level. This means for a change I'll end up with a lot of feats.

He has banned Natural Spell (something I approve of anyway), but I'm still thinking of being a nasty wildshaper when I'm not casting spells (Exalted Wildshape as a free feat from VOP helps.) With a possibility of up to three maneuvers and a few stances, are there any maneuvers or stances that really synergize well with wildshaping?

In this instance? Yes. You might also look at Reserve Feats (Complete Mage, Complete Champion) as they merely require you to have the spell prepared - not currently able to be cast. If your plan is melee, I'd suggest Minor Shapeshift (Temp HP is useful), Sunlight Eyes (not many ways to see through magical darkness; this is one), and Blade of Force (but only if you can convince the DM that it applies to Natural Weapons, too).

If you find yourself needing to block a corridor for a round, Summon Elemental is a handy one. If you find yourself without a party Rogue, it also goes well with Fiery Burst and Magic Sensitive to play trapsmith.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Be sure to get Natural Bond to help offset the 'level -6' for the Unicorn, and give the Unicorn Sacred Vow and VoP as well. Greenbound Summoning (LEoF) is always a good choice.

Martial Study: Iron Heart Surge, Action Before Thought, and one of the other two save counters or Emerald Razor, and Martial Stance: Hearing the Air at level 18 would probably be worth it. Fast Wild Shape may also be worth taking, you can switch out of wild shape and cast a spell, or cast and then wild shape, in the same round. Frozen Wild Shape for Cryohydra form is also good to have. If you find yourself with several extra feats, Combat Focus, Combat Stability, and Combat Vigor are usually worth considering. I'll agree that reserve feats are a good choice, considering you can use them when wild shaped.

[Talya]

Be sure to get Natural Bond to help offset the 'level -6' for the Unicorn,
Done already. Considering a single level of Beastmaster to offset the rest, eventually. I know, never give up spell levels, but it's tempting just the same.


and give the Unicorn Sacred Vow and VoP as well.
Vetoed by my DM long ago. :smallfrown: Although even I thought it was a bit cheesy.


Greenbound Summoning (LEoF) is always a good choice.
Not going that route, but I did get him to okay a custom initiate feat (Initiate of Lurue) based off of the Initiate of Malar, that gives magical beasts and animals summoned by SNA the "Augment Summoning" benefits (as well as giving me several spells added to my spell list.)



Martial Study: Iron Heart Surge, Action Before Thought, and one of the other two save counters or Emerald Razor, and Martial Stance: Hearing the Air at level 18 would probably be worth it. Fast Wild Shape may also be worth taking, you can switch out of wild shape and cast a spell, or cast and then wild shape, in the same round. Frozen Wild Shape for Cryohydra form is also good to have. If you find yourself with several extra feats, Combat Focus, Combat Stability, and Combat Vigor are usually worth considering. I'll agree that reserve feats are a good choice, considering you can use them when wild shaped.

Nice advice. I'm considering Draconic wildshape at 12, too. Dragons can cast without natural spell, circumventing my DM's ban. (I already cleared this with him, too.) A medium-sized gold dragon makes a decent spellcasting platform.

Jack_Simth: Good call on the reserve feats. My lack of familiarity with druid spells is, however, making me wonder what spells to memorize to qualify for these...heh.

[dspeyer]

Sudden leap is an early-availability way to get full attacks in, if you don't have pounce.

[Greater] Insightful strike is handy if you're in a form that doesn't do a lot of damage normally (e.g. become a rat to sneak around, still want to bite someone and make it hurt). I'm assuming you're already maxing concentration.

Everybody loves Ruby/Diamond Nightmare blade.

[Talya]

Remember, as a single-classed druid, my Initiator Level won't ever get past 10 (and the feat I get at 19 will be the sole level 5 maneuver or stance I could take.) Greater Insightful Strike would never be possible.

1-5 - Level 1 maneuvers
6-9 - Level 2 maneuvers
10-13 - Level 3 maneuvers
14-17 - Level 4 maneuvers
18-20 - Level 5 maneuvers

[Jack_Simth]

Jack_Simth: Good call on the reserve feats. My lack of familiarity with druid spells is, however, making me wonder what spells to memorize to qualify for these...heh.
The D20 Spell Filter is your Friend (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20spellfilter/)

Minor Shapeshift: Baleful Polymorph
Fiery Burst: Fire Seeds, Fire Storm, Fire Trap, Flame Blade, Flame Strike, Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal, Wall of Fire.
Magic Sensitive: Commune with Nature, Find the Path, Foresight, Scrying, Greater Scrying, Speak with Plants, Stone Tell
Summon Elemental: Any of the Summon Nature's Ally spells at 4th or higher. Yes, you can prepare them. Also: Creeping Doom, Elemental Swarm, Insect Plague, Storm of Vengeance
Sunlight Eyes: Daylight, Sunbeam, Sunburst
Blade of Force: OK, this one you'll need to go non-core. Vortex of Teeth, Stars of Arvandor, Nature's Purity, or Dinosaur Stampede. Maybe Allcorn lance, I'd need to double-check what spell level Blade of Force requires.

[Thespianus]

On a related note: Can the Animal Companion also grab Maneuvers/Stances through those feats? Would it be worth it?

[Darrin]

Are you picking up Improved Unarmed Strike somewhere? Great way to get another attack while in any wildshape form, and you can use strikes to make your 1d3 IUS base damage more potent.



1-5 - Level 1 maneuvers


Burning Blade (DW1). 1d6+IL bonus fire damage on all attacks.

Punishing Stance (Stance, IH1). +1d6 bonus damage, -2 AC.

Steel Wind (IH1). Sort of a "mini-pounce", move + attack two separate opponents, but both attacks at full BAB (no -2 for TWF, no -5 iterative).

Charging Minotaur (SD1). Charge ignores AoOs and a bull rush that does 2d6 + Str damage. So a movement buff, battlefield control, and the equivalent of a greatsword attack all rolled into one.

Wolf Fang Strike (TC1). Another "mini-pounce", essentially "TWF in a box" but you don't have to worry about calculating off-hand/light/etc. penalties.

Sudden Leap (TC1). Free movement as a swift action, also another way to "mini-pounce" (5' step + jump 10-15' + full attack or jump back 10' + charge). And if you're in a form with a high speed, each 10' above 30' is a +4 bonus on your Jump check.

Leading the Charge (Stance, WR1). Add IL as bonus damage on charges for all allies. And it's a static increase, so it multiplies on crits/PA/Leap Attack/etc.



6-9 - Level 2 maneuvers


Fire Riposte (DW2). Counter with a melee *touch* attack that does 7 fire damage on average.

Flashing Sun (DW2). Extra attack at full BAB, and one of the few Desert Wind maneuvers that cares absolutely nothing about fire resistance/immunity.

Shield Block (DS2). Doesn't technically require a shield. Immediate action to give an adjacent ally +4 AC.

Action Before Thought (DM2). Ref is your weakest save, particularly in low-Dex forms.

Emerald Razor (DM2). Works nicley with Improved Grab/Constrict.

Wall of Blades (IH2). You may not have full BAB, but you have access to forms with very high Str bonuses.

Clever Positioning (SS2). And if you just happen to be flying over a pit/lava when you swap positions, not only clever but extremely amusing.

Cloak of Deception (SH2). Swift action to gain greater invisibility for a round.

Shadow Jaunt (SH2). Still immensely nify even if you don't yell out *BAMF* whenever you use it.

Mountain Hammer (SD2). Animal forms tend to have issues with DR. Also, you never know when biting your way through an adamantine door might come in handy.

Battle Leader's Charge (WR2). +10 bonus damage on a charge that multiplies on crit/PA/leap attack/etc.



10-13 - Level 3 maneuvers


Death Mark (DW3). Very odd maneuver (please let me know if you figure out where to center the spread), but an interesting way to clear out clumps of low-level mooks.

Thicket of Blades (Stance, DS3). Works best with larger size + reach + Combat Reflexes + high Dex, but nifty if you can get it to work.

Insightful Strike (DM3). Good for smaller high speed/low damage forms.

Absolute Steel Stance (Stance, IH3). Makes Pounce even Pouncier.

Iron Heart Surge (IH3). Varying degrees of dubiousness, but undeniably useful.

Giant Killing Style (SS3). +4 damage buff for smaller forms.

Assassin's Stance (SH3). Opens up Craven (if your DM isn't going to be an asshat over the "class feature" nitpick), Staggering Strike, and Shadow Blade. Pairs up nicely with Cloak of Deception.

Dance of the Spider (SH3). Probably not necessary since you already have access to forms with fly/climb speeds, but then again, allows you to rip people apart as a bear while standing on the ceiling, which is pure awesomesauce.

Crushing Weight of the Mountain (Stance, SD3). I'm not entirely clear on whether this stacks with existing constrict damage, but even if it doesn't, allows you to add constrict damage to Improved Grab if your animal form didn't have the decency to have it already.

Leaping Dragon Stance (Stance, TC3). Good way to take advantage of a form that already has Jump bonuses, or ignore/bypass rough terrain, obstacles, intervening opponents.

Lion's Roar (WR3). Ok, so nobody ever takes this if WRT is available, but still... +5 damage (static bonus = multiplies) on all attacks (including ranged) for all allies within 60' could add up to some pretty heinous *ouch*.

White Raven Tactics (WR3). Even if you can't use this on yourself... stupendously useful.



14-17 - Level 4 maneuvers


Searing Blade (DW4). Check if your DM agrees that the activation cost is a typo/copypaste error. Another good way to boost damage on all your attacks.

Bounding Assault (DM4). Double move + attack, also works with Pounce.

Mind Strike (DM4). 1d4 Wis damage, but Will save DC = 14 + Str modifier. Oh, we couldn't possibly find a form with higher Str now, could we?

Lightning Recovery (IH4). Useful if you have an (Ex) that triggers on a particular attack, such as Poison or Swallow Whole.

Mithral Tornado (IH4). You've got to admit this is way better than blowing all those feats trying to qualify for Whirlwind Attack.

Bonesplitting Strike (SD4). 2 Con damage, no save.

Death From Above (TC4). Attack + Jump check for extra damage + reposition yourself on other side of opponent, nice way to set up flanking or isolate an opponent.

Covering Strike (WR4). Swift action, any opponet you strike can no longer make AoOs for 3 rounds.



18-20 - Level 5 maneuvers


Leaping Flame (DW5). Best way to make an archer completely *bleep* their pants. Also, can be activated by an ally with a longbow + fowling blunts for an out-of-combat teleport.

Hearing the Air (Stance, DM5). Not nearly as cool as turning into a giant bat, but a good way to pick up blindsense for non-bat forms.

Iron Heart Focus (IH5). You're going to roll a 1 eventually.

Shifting Defense (Stance, SS5). Melee can't have nice things, and with this they get even less (one miss and no more extra attacks).

Shadow Stride (SH5). Now you can *BAMF* and still attack.

Giant's Stance (Stance, SD5). Increases all your natural weapon damage by one size category.

Mountain Avalanche (SD5). If your favorite animal form didn't have the decency to get Trample (Ex)... well, now you can add that.

Dancing Mongoose (TC5). Two words: Hell Yeah!

Pouncing Charge (TC5). Kinda redundant if you already have Pounce, but nice to add it to something that doesn't.

Press the Advantage (WR5). Move 10' + full attack, or for stepping back to cast a spell and 5' isn't enough.

[Talya]

Absolute Steel Stance (Stance, IH3). Makes Pounce even Pouncier.


You get a cookie for use of the word "pouncier." (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BuffySpeak)

Edit: Giant's Stance would be OMFrackingGWOWdruidyAwesomesauce or something, but seeing as it's stone dragon, one probably can't move in it.

[FMArthur]

I recall that there was at least one Stone Dragon stance that didn't have the movement restriction, so you still might want to make sure this one has it before dismissing the idea.

[Talya]

I recall that there was at least one Stone Dragon stance that didn't have the movement restriction, so you still might want to make sure this one has it before dismissing the idea.

I believe that the one you are referring to is Crushing Weight of the Mountain, which is golden for grapplers. I am not at my books though.

[Darrin]

Edit: Giant's Stance would be OMFrackingGWOWdruidyAwesomesauce or something, but seeing as it's stone dragon, one probably can't move in it.

Yes, it does have a 5' movement restriction. However, you can re-enter the stance after moving with a swift action.

[Jack_Simth]

On a related note: Can the Animal Companion also grab Maneuvers/Stances through those feats? Would it be worth it?
Potentially, when you have a DM that lets you dictate your Animal Companion's build. However, you've got the question of "How do you instruct your companion in various strikes in battle?" even if you don't have the question of "How does your animal companion learn this sort of thing in the first place?"

[Talya]

Sudden Leap would be excellent on a mount-type companion...my druid's unicorn's 60' speed and high strength would make for a stratospheric jump check.

[Thespianus]

Potentially, when you have a DM that lets you dictate your Animal Companion's build. However, you've got the question of "How do you instruct your companion in various strikes in battle?" even if you don't have the question of "How does your animal companion learn this sort of thing in the first place?"
Depending on the strike, I don't see a real problem. The Steel Wind strike (move and attack 2 opponents as a standard action) doesn't seem like a very complicated thing. If we start with Fire-related Maneouvers, setting yourself on fire to do damage, etc, then I can agree. But "normal" maneuvers seem every way as reasonable as normal combat feats.


Sudden Leap would be excellent on a mount-type companion...my druid's unicorn's 60' speed and high strength would make for a stratospheric jump check.
Yeah, I was looking through potential feats for a Riding Dog and that's one maneuver I stumbled over. Advancing an Animal Companion is still a bit shaky for me, as I've never played a Druid, but I'm toying with a Strongheart Halfling-build mounted on a Riding Dog just for funsies. Sudden Leap seems just awesome, especially with the Halfling Druidsubstitution levels that give you Jump as a Spontaneous spell at level 1. ;)

Not sure what crazyness can be created by gaining a silly Jump check on the Riding Dog, but it's bound to be fun for something. ;)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sudden Leap requires you to already know at least one Tiger Claw maneuver before you can learn it. You'll first need one of Claw at the Moon, Rabid Wolf Strike, or Wolf Fang Strike before you can take Sudden Leap.

[Thespianus]

Sudden Leap requires you to already know at least one Tiger Claw maneuver before you can learn it. You'll first need one of Claw at the Moon, Rabid Wolf Strike, or Wolf Fang Strike before you can take Sudden Leap.

True. Both CatM and RWS are decent, though. Not really sure what other "normal" feats would benefit a Riding Dog, but I'm a noob so I'm sure I'm missing a few great ones.

[Darrin]

"How do you instruct your companion in various strikes in battle?" even if you don't have the question of "How does your animal companion learn this sort of thing in the first place?"

A&EG p. 75 has [Special Ability] as a trick you can teach an animal. I'd probably call a maneuver a "Special Attack" with an (Ex) or (Su) tag. So call it a Handle Animal check DC 20.

On top of the otherwise frequently useless Animal Empathy, add speak with animals/Pearl of Speech and maybe Headband of Intellect +2.


Sudden Leap requires you to already know at least one Tiger Claw maneuver before you can learn it.

Novice Tiger Claw Bracers FTW.


Sudden Leap would be excellent on a mount-type companion...my druid's unicorn's 60' speed and high strength would make for a stratospheric jump check.

You can probably do this without the maneuver: Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker and/or Quicksilver Boots (or horseshoes, rather), swift action to move up to either 1/2 your speed or your full speed, jump over whatever as necessary.

However, unicorns are already intelligent, so no arguing about how to teach it a feat/maneuver... hmmm. Check if retraining is allowed? Get rid of Alertness and Skill Focus (Survival). Still, Novice Tiger Claw Bracers (3000 GP) + wand of heroics (4500 GP) would also work.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Another option:

Unarmed and natural attacks are considered to be Shadow Hand favored weapons, so you could pick up, for example, Island of Blades (to dramatically increase flanking ability) and Shadow Blade feat to add Dex to damage.

If your party has a rogue, he will love the flanking you can provide. If you have no use for flanking, then Child of Shadows gives you a 20% concealment (which negates sneak attacks) by moving around, and Shadow Blade still adds Dex to damage.

[Darrin]

Unarmed and natural attacks are considered to be Shadow Hand favored weapons


Nope. "Natural attacks" are not one of the preferred discipline weapons for Shadow Hand. Whether or not a non-monk unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon is still the subject of some considerable debate (Skip says No, Keld says Yes). The only natural weapon identified as a preferred discipline weapon is "claw" under the Tiger Claw discipline.

...although you might be able to get around that with a Necklace of Natural Weapons and the Aptitude property.