Rogue Archer

[Nerdynick]

Okay, so I just got back from running a character creation session (I'm DMing), and I had a problem with one of my players. Great guy, but completely new to DnD. He described his backstory and rogue was the most fitting class. However, when everybody rolled their sheets, he chose ranger. Talking with him about this, he went ranger because he wants to be a skilled archer. Well, after some discussion with him and the rest of the group, he agreed to go rogue, but he still wants to be a skilled archer.

So whats the best rogue archer build you can throw at me? (I glanced over the handbook and didn't see anything, but I *am* almost asleep right now)

[tyckspoon]

Focus Dex, get the Initiative check up; getting that opening round with flatfooted opponents is very important for a ranged rogue, because they can't rely on relatively easy flanking to set off sneak attacks. If your stat-generation rules are generous enough to get away with a decent Strength you can go with a bow; if not, Crossbow Sniper is annoyingly feat intensive (Weapon Focus prereq + Rapid Reload to make multiple attacks with the bow) but lets you apply Dex toward damage. Other than that it's pretty normal archery stuff, and most of the handbooks on that should be relevant.

[Cog]

Since you're a Rogue, Hand Crossbow focus covers that - it's the benefit of Weapon Focus and Rapid Reload in one, and counts as W.F. for the purposes of prereqs. Crossbow Sniper is only 1/2 Dex, though.

[Nerdynick]

Also, the player is determined to not multiclass since he's new. So it'll have to be straight rogue.

EDIT: Scratch that. Since I'm making the new character, he's good with multiclassing.

[Dalek-K]

Are you allowing core only or multiple sources for feats? There are limited archery support in core only (i'll look into the archives for other archery feats though).

[Rossebay]

I'd say go with the Bonus Feat rogue in Unearthed Arcana. It's great for a skill-based class that doesn't fit any of the other variants. That way, you can grab all of the archery-based feats you want, if he just wants an agile, skill-based thief-type.
You get all of the rogue class features, plus bonus feats gained the exact same as a fighter, but you sacrifice all Sneak Attack, which is fine because he won't be flanking with a bow.
Although, there may be a feat, come to think of it... I'll reply with it in my next post if I find it.

[Nerdynick]

I'm allowing multiple sources. Pretty much any book I have access to (which is quite a few, including the Complete series, ToB, Races, PHBII, and others)

Also, what page is the Bonus Feat rogue?

[Dalek-K]

Here is the Rogue mentioned http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue he will lose sneak attack though.

But for his concept that may work.

[Eldariel]

I'd say go with the Bonus Feat rogue in Unearthed Arcana. It's great for a skill-based class that doesn't fit any of the other variants. That way, you can grab all of the archery-based feats you want, if he just wants an agile, skill-based thief-type.
You get all of the rogue class features, plus bonus feats gained the exact same as a fighter, but you sacrifice all Sneak Attack, which is fine because he won't be flanking with a bow.
Although, there may be a feat, come to think of it... I'll reply with it in my next post if I find it.

It really isn't worth it. There simply aren't enough archery feats to truly make a medium BAB archer good. You need the Sneak Attack and you'll need to win initiative or Hide. By the sound of it he wants Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue). Conveniently, it gets Hide in Plain Sight as a special ability (eventually on level 13...), which will actually allow him to Hide and Sneak Attack without much special preparation (needs natural terrain). Before then...well, he'll have to try to hide, win initiative and profit.

Seriously, without auxillary sources there isn't much to Rogue Archer beyond taking PBS + Rapid Shot (you can take eventual Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot; Manyshot is mostly a waste tho since it procs Sneak Attack only once) and maxing Dex + attack bonuses + hide (Halfling) and staying within 30' to sneak attack people. Then max out Use Magic Device and use Wands of Grease, (Greater) Invisibility and company to get Sneak Attack constantly. Outside Core you get some more useful spells (Sniper's Shot removes range limit on Sneak Attack, Arrowmind allows bow attacking in melee without provoking attacks of opportunity & taking AoOs with bow, Gravestrike/Golemstrike/Vinestrike allow sneak attacking undead/constructs/plants - these also come as weapon augment crystals - and Guided Shot allows long range shots into obscure terrain without miss chance.) and items but I'm not clear as to whether you're allowing non-Core access or not.

[Nerdynick]

To clarify:

I am allowing almost any book (assume I am unless I say otherwise)

He has since changed his mind so that multiclassing is an option

[Human Paragon 3]

Urban Ranger / Rogue multiclass may be a better way to go. Start with one to three levels of rogue for skills and a little sneak attack, then go into ranger. You only lose one point of BAB and get all the cool sneaky stuff.

[Nerdynick]

Huh, I feel kinda stupid for not mentioning that this is level 5....

[Rossebay]

Something that could really work for him as a rogue with sneak attack would be Bow Feint. Which, per the name, allows feinting with a bow.
That'd let him get Sneak Attack Damage as long as he was within 30' and succeeded on feint. Improved Feint would be a great option for that too.

[Eldariel]

Actual Rogue Archer is basically:
- Go straight Rogue
- Max out Use Magic Device & Hide
- Use UMD to use Wands of spells to get sneak attacks and sidestep the limitations
- Get Hide in Plain Sight to negate need for spells eventually (Shadowdancer, Stalker of Kharesh [BoED], Wilderness Rogue, various options as listed here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff))

Alternatives include stuff like straight Ranger Archer, Ranger/Scout combination with "Swift Hunter" [Complete Scoundrel] & Factotum Archer [Dungeonscape]. They all play out a bit differently; Ranger relies on spells and Favored Enemy, Ranger/Scout uses "Skirmish" and ways to move + full attack & Factotum has some spells, Manyshot spam and Int-to-everything tricks. Either way, you're probably not escaping spells; precision archers need spells to deal with limitations of precision damage (range, types immune, etc.) while non-precision archers really, really want spells for damage.


Something that could really work for him as a rogue with sneak attack would be Bow Feint. Which, per the name, allows feinting with a bow.
That'd let him get Sneak Attack Damage as long as he was within 30' and succeeded on feint. Improved Feint would be a great option for that too.

It's only ever one attack per turn. Loses out to just full attack without Sneak Attack in average damage... With involved rolls that may fail. Bow Feint is largely a waste of feats, unfortunately.

[FMArthur]

Rogues with wands may be a bit complicated. Ninja from Complete Adventurer is generally weaker than rogue because rogues can Use Magic Device things that replicate ninja abilities, and the fact that its special type of Sneak Attack doesn't trigger on flanking, but a ranged attacker can't flank anyway. Ninjas have a built-in way to turn invisible for the whole round to virtually guarantee the ability to get those bonus damage dice on attacks. You might want to alter Ghost Step to have uses per encounter instead of per day, though. Otherwise it lacks staying power to adventure with a real party. Rogue is better because they get more options and because ranged attacking is not very good, but if you want a ranged character its superiority is diminished.

[Rossebay]

It's only ever one attack per turn. Loses out to just full attack without Sneak Attack in average damage... With involved rolls that may fail. Bow Feint is largely a waste of feats, unfortunately.

Riiiight. I completely forgot about that.

Order of the Bow Initiate is all I have right now, then. But, again, not enough attacks per turn.

So go with the invisibility one. Haha.

[Rei_Jin]

If you're the DM, here's what you do.

Ranger/Scout

Take the Swift Hunter feat, and pick up Crossbow Sniper. I like the Light Crossbow, others prefer the Hand Crossbow... that's just down to taste really.

Max your Dex out... make it crazy. With this build, you only need Dex.

Take Manyshot and Greater Manyshot as soon as possible. (It doesn't specify that it can only be used with a bow, although it mentions using arrows in the description.)

Move with your move action, then as a standard action you can do skirmish damage to anything within 60 feet... with up to 4 attacks in a single round through Greater Manyshot. And I do mean anything, as you can do skirmish damage to any foe that you have as a favoured enemy... pick constructs and undead as two of your favoured enemies.

[Nerdynick]

I'm going to have to say no to Manyshot with crossbows (unless you go IK and get a double-decker crossbow).

[Safety Sword]

You might find this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199492) relevant :smallcool:

[Rixx]

You could use the Sniper and Scout archetypes from the Pathfinder APG - they replace class features that the 3.5 rogue shares with the PF rogue, so they're compatible.


Scout’s Charge (Ex): At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.

This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.

This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.


Accuracy (Ex): At 1st level, a sniper halves all range increment penalties when making ranged attacks with a bow or crossbow.

This ability replaces trapfinding.

Deadly Range (Ex): At 3rd level, a sniper increases the range at which she can apply her sneak attack damage by 10 feet. This range increases by 10 feet for every 3 levels after 3rd.

This ability replaces trap sense.

[connorpistol]

tell him to be an elven fighter, they are the best types of archers and have access to the best archery prestige classes. who says an fighter can't have a high dexterity? and that archers can't wear full plate?

alternatively, look into the scout class from complete adventurer, that will give him good mobility well combined with well used archery using the skirmish ability.

lv. 5 makes a scout very good, it puts the skirmish ability up to a +3d6, another thing that makes it better than rouge is that sneak attack has a range of only 30ft. !!!

[Eldariel]

tell him to be an elven fighter, they are the best types of archers and have access to the best archery prestige classes. who says an fighter can't have a high dexterity? and that archers can't wear full plate?

1) Fighters don't grant access to any good Archery prestige classes. 1, because good Archery Prestige Classes don't exist in 3.5 (3.0 had some but none of them require Fighter-levels; 3.0 version of Order of the Bow Initiate from Sword & Fist requires Weapon Spec. but it can be gotten through Templar as well) and 2, because none require Fighter to enter.

2) Elves are okay Archers but all they have over other races is the Dex-bonus (which some other races have as well). Unlike in previous editions, Elves don't get any Archery bonuses (automatic proficiencies are completely useless for warriors). And Fullplate on high Dex type doesn't make sense. Also, Fighter doesn't get any of the useful Archery-skills in class, such Knowledges, Hide or Spot.

3) Fighters are a fairly weak class that offers very little nobody else does. Ranged Weapon Mastery is nice but can be gained through other ways and that's about it. Targetteer Fighter makes it more worth it though, if Dragon Magazine content is allowed.


alternatively, look into the scout class from complete adventurer, that will give him good mobility well combined with well used archery using the skirmish ability.

lv. 5 makes a scout very good, it puts the skirmish ability up to a +3d6, another thing that makes it better than rouge is that sneak attack has a range of only 30ft. !!!

Normally Scouts can't full attack. That makes them very weak Archers since they can't use Rapid Shot & co. There are ways around this though, but Skirmish is still limited to 30' like Sneak Attack (Ranged Skirmisher-feat makes it 60' but unlike Sneak Attackers, "Sniper's Shot"-spell doesn't exist to circumvent the limit entirely for Skirmishers).

Truly, the best archers are usually casters followed by multiclassed warriors who stack all mundane bonuses to archery together.


Also, this post is two years old so chances are the character has been made and played and retired by now.

[Curmudgeon]

The Rogue class is a versatile chassis, and you can make an effective archer using it, even without multiclassing. Here's one way:

Silvanesti Elf (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, pages 19-20): +2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CON, -2 CHA; Elvensight (low-light vision + 30' darkvision); +1 Knowledge (arcana); longbow proficiency

Wilderness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) Rogue Schedule:

Education (Eberron Campaign Setting): all Knowledges are class skills; Point Blank Shot (FBF)
Weapon Focus (longbow) (FBF)
Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion): bonuses to hit and damage based on Knowledge checks
Rapid Shot (FBF)
—
Dead Eye (Dragon Compendium): +DEX mod to ranged damage within 30'; Precise Shot (FBF)
—
Far Shot (FBF)
Darkstalker (Lords of Madness)
Manyshot (FBF); Skill Mastery Rogue special ability: "take 10" on mastered skills (6 Knowledges for Knowledge Devotion)
—
Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel): "take 12" on mastered skills; Greater Manyshot (FBF)
Camouflage Wilderness Rogue special ability
xxx (FBF)
Improved Precise Shot
xxx (FBF); Hide in Plain Sight Wilderness Rogue special ability
There are a couple of Fighter Bonus Feats to be determined ("xxx"). Around level 14 you'll gain the maximum of +5 to hit and damage all creatures in D&D, without rolling. At that point you'll hit more often than full BAB classes. Get yourself a +5 Splitting longbow and you'll be in decent shape. When you get Hide in Plain Sight you'll be able to evade detection by pretty much everything (in natural terrain).

[Kyberwulf]

Maybe a better way to do this, is to tell us his backstory. That way we can come up with a better concept for the class combinations.

[Prince Raven]

Deadeye Shot from PHBII can help you get ranged sneak attacks.

[Greenish]

Deadeye Shot from PHBII can help you get ranged sneak attacks.Mmn, if you're not going much farther than the 5th level you're starting on, you might be able to do with one attack per round. It loses its shine pretty soon though.


What is it about his character that makes rogue fit better than ranger? Urban Trapfinding Solitary Hunter Spell-less Ranger is pretty close to rogue except for the lack of SA, for example, and it'd be easier if we knew what exactly you're looking for.


[Edit]: I guess you could ready a Greater Manyshot, but that takes quite a few feats.

[Grayson01]

Have you given any thought to Rouge/Warlock? it's an odd match up but walk unseen is a nice touch, Leaps and bounds, Spider climb, Rouge Skills and Ranged Eldric Blasts it's no where near "Obtimized" but it has some nice flavor and gets the Sneaky Rouge ranged character feel.

[Prince Raven]

Mmn, if you're not going much farther than the 5th level you're starting on, you might be able to do with one attack per round. It loses its shine pretty soon though.

Oh yeah, good point, forgot that you can't ready a full attack. Looks like he'll want to save up for a ring of greater invisibility.

[Hytheter]

Halfling rogues have an excellent substitution level for ranged attacks at level 10 that lets them hide after shooting as a free action (instead of a move action) at a -10 penalty (instead of -20). Its from Races of the Wild. Considering halflings are small (+4 to hide) and rogues have hide as a class skill, and you have high DEX from being a halfling archer you should be able to get a pretty damn high hide check, penalty or not.

Also, if you go Strongheart halfling from Players Guide to Faerun then you get a bonus feat to boot.

I think it works best with a crossbow. Crossbow Sniper lets you sneak attack from 60ft; the further you are, the better your hide check (well, the lower their spot check). It's not like you'll be using a compound bow; halflings have -2 STR, and most of your damage is from Sneak Attack anyway.

Ideal feats include: Rapid Shot, Able Sniper (another +4 to hide, and a to-hit bonus), Crossbow Sniper, Rapid Reload.