Retraining Maneuvers and Meeting Prerequisites

[Elric VIII]

Q 53

a) Can a martial maneuver count for its own prerequisites?
For instance, can I learn Emerald Razor (requires 1 Diamond Mind maneuver) at Warblade 3, then use the ability to replace a maneuver at 4th level to replace the maneuver that I used to qualify for ER?

b) Similar to the above, can I take Martial Study to learn Moment of Perfect Mind (no prereqs), then take it again to learn Emerald Razor, then use the PHB2 rules to retrain the first Martial Study, and still br able to use ER?


A53)a) No, otherwise you'd also be able to use the skills /feats you gain from your next level to qualify for a PrC that you've not entered yet.
b) You'd lose the ability to use or benefit from features you no longer meet the prerequisites for until you qualify for them again (If you retrain power attack to point blank shot, you can't use cleave until you have power attack again.) Also, if you retrain away power attack, you don't technically have cleave (which requires power attack) for the moment of your new feat, so you couldn't take greater cleave even if you met all other prereqs.
There's a better example of this, but I can't think of it.


The thing is, you still meet the prerequisites of knowing one maneuver from school X.

This is more akin to getting into Fochlucan Lyrist using a Ring of Evasion, then taking 2 levels of Rogue and selling the ring. Which does work.


To clarify what I said, if you meet the prereqs after selecting the new feature, then it works, however you can't use a maneuver that requires another maneuver alone to qualify for a maneuver that requires another maneuver.

Think of it like this: for the brief moment that you're retraining off Maneuver A for Maneuver C, and Maneuver B (which you have) requires you to have Maneuver A or C. If Maneuver C requires Maneuver B, then you cannot because you don't have Maneuver B because you don't have Maneuver A.
If Maneuver C does not require Maneuver B, and Maneuver B requires Maneuver A or C, then you can because you'll temporarily effectively lose B, but when you get C you can use B again.
(If you require any additional discussion, a new thread might be required)

Here's what we've got so far.

I think that a maneuver can, technically, count itself as its own prerequisite, Groverfield disagrees. Is there anything solid to support either side?

[Koury]

I'm away from books but I'm 99% sure a maneuver explicitly counts itself when dealing with prereqs.

[Elric VIII]

I'm away from books but I'm 99% sure a maneuver explicitly counts itself when dealing with prereqs.

Suppose it does, what impact would it have on the Martial Study scenario?

Knowing the prerequisite of the maneuver is not an actual prerequisite of the feat.

[Vandicus]

I believe that the normal rules for losing the benefit of something one no longer qualifies for doesn't apply to ToB maneuvers because of how the retraining feature works(in other words no hierarchy that cancels stuff out when a part is removed). However, I don't believe a maneuver that is being retrained qualifies for prereqs. While the maneuver is being retrained, the person who knows the maneuver no longer possesses knowledge of it.

[Koury]

Basically, it means both questions A and B are Yes.

Maneuver A needs no prereqs.
Maneuver B needs one maneuver known to learn.

You learn maneuver A, then qualify for maneuver B. That part is simple. You then learn maneuver B. When you lose maneuver A, you still meet the prereqs for maneuver B (knowing one maneuver) so it never 'disables.' You can learn another 'one maneuver known' prereq maneuver just fine.

[Elric VIII]

However, I don't believe a maneuver that is being retrained qualifies for prereqs. While the maneuver is being retrained, the person who knows the maneuver no longer possesses knowledge of it.

I agree with this, I don't suggest retraining a maneuver to replace it with a maneuver that requires it. What I am saying is happening is that at level 3 you know the prerequisite maneuver and then learn the maneuver that requires it, then at level 4 you get rid of the first maneuver, keeping the one learned at level 3.


Basically, it means both questions A and B are Yes.

Maneuver A needs no prereqs.
Maneuver B needs one maneuver known to learn.

You learn maneuver A, then qualify for maneuver B. That part is simple. You then learn maneuver B. When you lose maneuver A, you still meet the prereqs for maneuver B (knowing one maneuver) so it never 'disables.' You can learn another 'one maneuver known' prereq maneuver just fine.

This is how I assumed it works, I was just looking for supporting text. Although the logic of it seems good.

[Keld Denar]

Also, ulike most things with prereqs, maneuver prereqs are only checked when you take the maneuver.

Say I have a WR strike that requires 3 other WR maneuvers. I have those 3, then I get the maneuver mentioned. A level later, I get the option to swap out a manevuer. I swap out one of the prereqs. Two levels later, I swap out another. I now only have 2 WR manevuers, the maneuver I learned that has 3 prereqs, and one of those intial prereqs. But...it doesn't matter, since they only time prereqs are even checked is when you GAIN the maneuver.