OOTS #798 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Quild]

Roy back in the arena, oh yeah!

I'm really not one of those Thog's fans...

[Whiffet]

Very nice. Glad to see Roy still has his wits about him. :smallbiggrin:

[Khal]

Well, that's one way to makeyour INT work for you in a combat situation.

EDIT: How'd Roy get the arrow? We haven't seen any arrows fall into the arena, except from the dinosaur attack, and you'd think someone would have cleaned them up in the match or two between that and Roy V Thog.

[Porthos]

"'Lovable Miser' crass or just-"

Classic. :smallcool:

[Roland St. Jude]

"'Lovable Miser' crass or just-"

Classic. :smallcool:Yes, I thought that last panel was a delightful punchline.

[DemonRoach]

Awesome :-)

[Shatteredtower]

"Come on, kid, move it!"

And he's back in the fight. Now he's just got to last until the rage wears out. Clever lad, Roy. Let's hope the rest of your plan works out half as well.

[Chess435]

Good to know that Roy still has his wits about him!

[The Giant]

EDIT: How'd Roy get the arrow? We haven't seen any arrows fall into the arena, except from the dinosaur attack, and you'd think someone would have cleaned them up in the match or two between that and Roy V Thog.

"Ladies and gentlemen, we will now have a 45-minute intermission as the arena staff scours the sand for every last crossbow bolt that was fired."

It's from the dinosaur attack. They didn't clean them up.

And as I was drawing that panel, I said to myself, "Someone will ask about the bolt within the first ten posts." :smallannoyed:

[Caliphbubba]

wow, I thought Roy was a gonner. glad to see he still has some fight left in him.

careful now Belkar your fake character development is showing lol

great comic, Giant!

[TheExpat]

Really enjoying the split-party situation so far. Hurray for Roy! If he actually managed to blind Thog with that glass, he might be able to wrap this up in a few rounds. :smallbiggrin:

[Cizak]

Hell yeah, Roy is back in action! >:D

[Pheehelm]

The last panel is great, but my favorite bit was how matter-of-fact Roy's instructions to Belkar were. Not "go slow them down," not a hint of "do as much as you can manage." Just a straight up "go defeat them thoroughly." Gotta love the confident team leadership right there.

[The_Weirdo]

And as I was drawing that panel, I said to myself, "Someone will ask about the bolt within the first ten posts." :smallannoyed:

QED: A good writer knows his fanbase.

[TheExpat]

"Ladies and gentlemen, we will now have a 45-minute intermission as the arena staff scours the sand for every last crossbow bolt that was fired."

It's from the dinosaur attack. They didn't clean them up.

And as I was drawing that panel, I said to myself, "Someone will ask about the bolt within the first ten posts." :smallannoyed:

The more random and improvised this fight gets, the better.

Great stuff. I was really hoping for some Kirk vs. Gorn-style action. Dare I hope for a wonky Capt. Kirk jump kick in a future comic?

[Crisis21]

Healing Potion: Reasonable Rates
Single Use Improvised Weapon: Potential Surcharge
Stalling a Raging Half-Orc Barbarian Nemesis with an empty bottle: Priceless

[TheExpat]

[edit: double-post]

[Ranzear]

Was that a 'health potion' glow or a 'something extra special' glow?

Roy seems to have a few less scratches, but not many...

[Rizban]

Looks like he finally figured out how to use his Int score in battle.

[Sylthia]

If I was a betting man, I'd put money on Roy at this point. Thog's rage should wear off any round now and Roy gained back most his HP if we are to go by the red scratches.

Also, I just noticed Thog is a different shade of green when he rages.

[Hiro Protagonest]

And as I was drawing that panel, I said to myself, "Someone will ask about the bolt within the first ten posts." :smallannoyed:

Wow Giant! You're not just a psychic, you're a FUTURE psychic! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0185.html) :smallamused:

[Gaius]

Alright, nice to see the Belkster get tagged in, with some amusing dialogue from Ian. ^_^

As for Roy's dealings: Ye gods, man, going for the knee and then the eyes!? :smalleek: Owww... Not that I really blame him, given a) it's a matter of survival, b) those injuries aren't as crippling long-term in a D&D universe, and c) the cripplee in question, oddly lovable though he is, has killed and will continue to kill lots and lots of people.

[Dr.Epic]

Yes, try to out run the barbarian with improved movement.

[Pheehelm]

About the crossbow bolt, keep in mind Tarquin loves to put on a good, memorable show (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0785.html) (see panel 6 especially). Roy using the bolt plays into that perfectly.

[goldgecko4]

Yay! This is why Roy's the best, because we have a plan now!

Although I think Belkar might be the one to turn the tide: we've seen him easily dispatch his kobold counterparts before, and once that's out of the way, he can help V, who can help Elan, because a full-powered Elan could take Nale, (I only say this because of Elan's growth as a character and the fancy Prestige class) however level-drained Elan is a sitting duck for either Sabin or Nale, gods help him if both.

[Shatteredtower]

"Ladies and gentlemen, we will now have a 45-minute intermission as the arena staff scours the sand for every last crossbow bolt that was fired."

What intermission? Go send a bunch of prisoners due for execution out to clear the bolts away while the dinosaur's still running around the arena. Fun for the whole family, I tell you!

Okay, so that could get a little boring after ten minutes, but hey, have you watched the real life sporting events people will spend an afternoon watching? :smallwink:

[Onyavar]

hah!

Good to know that Roy is still in the game. Makes me wonder why he offered his surrender just two comics before. He never did that before, so it was a truly desperate move.

And, by the way, we know see Thog's abysmal INT: No, he doesn't beat Roy when he is down. Instead, he searches for more boulders, giving him some time to recover his senses, find an arrow, get up and run away. I mean, Thog: You're faster, you're stronger, why do you spend precious rage time searching for big rocky improvised weapons!!

[Shatteredtower]

Also, I just noticed Thog is a different shade of green when he rages.

That's just so everyone will know they won't like it when he's angry.


I mean, Thog: You're faster, you're stronger, why do you spend precious rage time searching for big rocky improvised weapons!!

Didn't Alan Rickman answer that in the Kevin Costner version of Robin Hood? :smallwink:

[Esprit15]

Dear People-Who-Think-Roy-is-Stupid,

In your faces!

But seriously, I loved the comic. I'll have to reread it when it's not 11 at night. I'm not getting the joke from the last few panels. Someone mind explaining?

Also, prediction for 800: Thog being killed/defeated. It's certainly getting set up for that.

[factotum]

Liked the comic, although a bit odd that V and Z are now fighting outside in plain sight--they were indoors before, weren't they?

[carborundum]

Wonder if Belkar will still think kicking LG asses is booo-oo-ooring when he finds (what's left of?) Mr. Scruffy...

[Conuly]

And as I was drawing that panel, I said to myself, "Someone will ask about the bolt within the first ten posts."

But isn't it great to be right?

As for the joke in the last three panels, Roy used the bottle from the healing potion as an improvised weapon. He broke it and then used the sharp pointy end to stab Thog in the face. Ian is really greedy and wants to know if it's all right if he charges extra because Roy used the bottle both for healing AND as a weapon. It's not, but Ian wants to do it anyway. We may now take bets on whether or not he does.

[Pheehelm]

I'm not getting the joke from the last few panels. Someone mind explaining?Fifth to last panel: Ian waited until after Roy drank the potion to act all lovably miserly.

Third to last panel: Roy broke the empty potion bottle over Thog's eyes.

Last panel: Ian considers taking advantage of the extra utility Roy got from his gift. Basically "I sold you a potion and an improvised weapon!" and makes a fourth-wall-shaking joke about character archetypes.

[Gwynfrid]

So much for those complaining that Roy is just a talker who gets his ass handed to him in every fight. Go Roy !

Also, why the heck would anyone want to clean the arena up between fights ? The show is all the better for the blood and guts spread all over the place.

[Shatteredtower]

Also, prediction for 800: Thog being killed/defeated. It's certainly getting set up for that.

With just a quarter lap two strips to go, it's a reasonable possibility. I suspect the Giant has something different planned for that, though, if only because Thog's popularity might not overshadow Nale's plot significance here, and it might be too soon to kill off Nale. There are a lot of sensational possibilities for the 800th strip, but I'm not going to make any predictions here.

Storytellers tend to dislike audiences that interrupt them to shout out what's going to happen next, y'know? :smallbiggrin:

[Squeejee]

So much for those complaining that Roy is just a talker who gets his ass handed to him in every fight. Go Roy !

I don't know, man. On the one hand, Roy's loss in this fight was pretty much a foregone conclusion once he lost his sword and, by extension, the use of his specialization feats, but on the other, it's nice to see him turn around the fight, coming close to victory even if only by attrition.

My problem with it is that it basically amounts to a deus ex machina - yes, I can believe that a thief would have smuggled in potions for emergencies, but I don't believe it's been foreshadowed at all.

Or has it? I'm off to check the archives...

EDIT: While I'm at it, another thought! Where was that potion being hidden this whole time, Ian's crotch? Ewwwwww!

[TheExpat]

Also, prediction for 800: Thog being killed/defeated. It's certainly getting set up for that.

I want to agree with you here, though I learned not to expect much in the way of pomp and celebration for the "big round number" posts (other than perhaps a little comic irony). Also, The Giant might have scads of cutaway scenes he'd like to get through before coming back to the arena battle. Still, anything is possible.

[BarGamer]

Using INT in combat my butt. I'm gonna call him Roy Flatfooted from now on. Because, OUCH.

All he needed to do was take a short walk, turn around, and then he can talk to Belkar and Ian face-to-face (not really that important) AND watch for any attacks from Thog (primary importance).

He must have failed his Reflex save and AC for the thrown boulder and bull rush/charge, because I guess taking a potion from someone and then drinking it took up all his actions.

And now he's trying to outrun a Raging Barbarian who probably has Improved Movement, unless that arrow to the leg counts as hampered, and unless Thog really is blinded. I'm willing to bet that Thog has more CON than Roy, so he can run for longer.

If I were Roy, and if I still had actions left, I'd have filled up that bottle with sand, then made with the stabbity. >: D

[TheExpat]

Liked the comic, although a bit odd that V and Z are now fighting outside in plain sight--they were indoors before, weren't they?

I sorta thought so too. They might have moved outside since we last saw them, though. Hell, they might have gone out for sandwiches since then. :smallwink:

[TheExpat]

Wonder if Belkar will still think kicking LG asses is booo-oo-ooring when he finds (what's left of?) Mr. Scruffy...

I'm definitely looking forward to some halfling revenge, served up cold.

[MisterLad]

Wonder if Belkar will still think kicking LG asses is booo-oo-ooring when he finds (what's left of?) Mr. Scruffy...

I wonder what color Belkar turns when HE rages.

[JackRackham]

I want to agree with you here, though I learned not to expect much in the way of pomp and celebration for the "big round number" posts (other than perhaps a little comic irony). Also, The Giant might have scads of cutaway scenes he'd like to get through before coming back to the arena battle. Still, anything is possible.

I think we're due to hear from the Elan/Nale/Sabine side of this battle sometime in the next post or two, so that's a possibility. We also have Belkar on his way (which could take a strip to get there, putting him in-scene for 800) to help out. We still haven't seen Durkon either.

There are a lot of ways it could go, really, and I doubt Mr. Burlew rearranges his story board (actual or hypothetical) around what number the comic is. So, I agree, I don't expect anything special, beyond the usual good writing.

I think when this wraps up, however, some 'Team Evil' action would make a lot of sense, to add tension to their attempts at gleaning usable intelligence from Tarquin - depending on where Mr. Burlew's going with this all, of course.

It's also been quite a while since we heard from them.

[cc_kizz]

Oh, how exciting! Roy isn't dead (yet)! And there's still plot a turnin'!

[Zorgophlats]

800 = Durkon studying his spell. 11 panels of, "Whatever happened to...? Durkon. That other OOTS character." Maybe he'll have a comment about the spell costing 800 gp, and mentioning how such a cheap cost was a letdown. "00" jokes.

Panel 12. Elan dramatically crashing through the window, and pratfalling onto his desk.

Other possibility, Durkon at the front gate updating his duration of stay to include more strips. Long line jokes. Over 30 strips.

Yet another, Belkar runs into Durkon on his way out. Durkon is being escorted to jail for overstaying his visit without the proper paperwork. Durkon the criminal jokes.

I'm looking for letdown ideas that involve Durkon joining us once again. In case you couldn't tell.

[the Riddler]

And as I was drawing that panel, I said to myself, "Someone will ask about the bolt within the first ten posts." :smallannoyed:

Same thing I thought as I saw it :smalltongue:

[Andre]

Was that a 'health potion' glow or a 'something extra special' glow?

Roy seems to have a few less scratches, but not many...

That was a "Potion of Plot Advancement", carefully cherished all these years by Ian should such an occasion occur. Masterful planning on their part!
I can only guess that Roy finally got to use the levels of Psion he has taken earlier.


:smallcool:

[Killer Angel]

"Ladies and gentlemen, we will now have a 45-minute intermission as the arena staff scours the sand for every last crossbow bolt that was fired."


Mr. Burlew, I find it's unfair to win a thread which is based on your own webcomic! :smallbiggrin:


Liked the comic, although a bit odd that V and Z are now fighting outside in plain sight--they were indoors before, weren't they?

I suppose that V. was flying toward the arena while fighting

[faustin]

Question: How many turns of rage could Thog still have? :smallconfused:

[Pheehelm]

Well, by default he gets three rounds plus his Constitution modifier. Rage gives +4 Con in itself, and the Class and Level Geekery thread doesn't have any guess to his usual Con, but it's almost certainly at least 10 for a pure melee type, and very likely higher than that. So more than 5 rounds. If he has at least 11 levels in Barbarian, he gets a +6 bonus to Con instead, so that'd make an extra round.

I'unno how many rounds he's gone so far.

[St Fan]

You shall notice that Thog is reduced to inarticulate growls throughout this two-pager. Even for him, that's quite telling.

[SinsI]

These last few strips made Roy look really pathetic - he was idiotic enough to reject prison breakout plan, was outsmarted by Thog - of all things! - and is saved by no merit of his own (with all his arrogance as a leader)...

[ThePhantasm]

Awesome! A little Ian-ex-machina aside, I'm looking forward to seeing how Roy vs. Thog round 2 goes.

[werik]

Change of plans and also a possible change of fortunes. Now that Roy is relatively healed it is feasible that he can avoid Thog until the later loses his rage ability. If Roy really puts his superior intellect to use, he might be able to recover another weapon somehow and have the advantage against the Incredible Hulk here.

And yes, I am aware that requires a fair amount of ifs.

[Othniel Edden]

Want the next comic so much right now.:thog: vs. :roy: is being all awesome like.

[FireDrake]

In the third from last panel it looks like Roy is specifically targetting Thog's left eye. I'm guessing that Thog's sense of perception is gonna be messed up by that, and we're gonna see some missed attacks in the next few strips.

[Cerlis]

Thog isnt a lion totem barbarian. Running away from him Thog gets at best 1 attack per round.

[voiceofreason]

Yay! Everyone wants things to look up for our heroes.

[ScrapperTBP]

My problem with it is that it basically amounts to a deus ex machina - yes, I can believe that a thief would have smuggled in potions for emergencies, but I don't believe it's been foreshadowed at all.

I have seen this phrase plastered all over this forum. Deus ex machina. This isn't a cop out. Why is Roy using his intelligence and Ian using thievery and his Robin Hood style of role-play to help out Roy (a man he knows to be an associate of his daughter).

Just because a character doesn't die in a hairy situation doesn't make it a deus ex machina. And come on! Did anyone want Roy to die again so soon after being res'ed?

[ThePhantasm]

With Belkar in the fight now, its all over. The Linear Guild is as good as dead. As always, Belkar to the rescue. :smallbiggrin:

[Adeptus]

Ok, wow! Sorry I doubted you Giant. That kicked arse! :roy:

[Echon]

I love all the turns this fight is taking. Not just Roy vs. Thog but OotS vs. LG. This update also reminds me why I like all the characters involved and why the Squid Thingy preferred to attack Roy.

[Klivian]

I have seen this phrase plastered all over this forum. Deus ex machina. This isn't a cop out. Why is Roy using his intelligence and Ian using thievery and his Robin Hood style of role-play to help out Roy (a man he knows to be an associate of his daughter).

Just because a character doesn't die in a hairy situation doesn't make it a deus ex machina. And come on! Did anyone want Roy to die again so soon after being res'ed?

Question: What intelligence is Roy using in this comic?

The only smart thing he does is make sure Belkar gets a move on, since it would be a safe bet that Belkar would just sit there and watch Roy get trashed. Otherwise, I'm not seeing anything that qualifies as a genius move. He's flailing with whatever he finds in hand.

Also, as others have pointed out, trying to outrun a class with a higher movement rate than he has, not too bright.

[Stormwolf]

It's a good job Roy's too busy to wonder about where Ian has been hiding that potion all this time... ;)

[Bharg]

Drinking a health potion is clearly cheating! :smallwink:

[Kojiro]

Question: What intelligence is Roy using in this comic?

The only smart thing he does is make sure Belkar gets a move on, since it would be a safe bet that Belkar would just sit there and watch Roy get trashed. Otherwise, I'm not seeing anything that qualifies as a genius move. He's flailing with whatever he finds in hand.

Also, as others have pointed out, trying to outrun a class with a higher movement rate than he has, not too bright.

Both improvised weapons, which saved him each time, are a bit less than stupid, at least. Bottle to the eye was particularly good. Meanwhile, yes, Thog can catch him, assuming he's not temporarily blinded (I doubt Thog has blindsight, too), but unless he gets grappled again that's just a single attack each round, and Thog is, all things considered, probably at least over halfway done with his Rage.

So, at the very least, running gets one less Full Attack unleashed on his sorry ass, from someone who is probably much less likely to have any accuracy in his blows.

[Red XIV]

And as I was drawing that panel, I said to myself, "Someone will ask about the bolt within the first ten posts." :smallannoyed:
What can I say? You know your audience. Maybe a little too well.:smallbiggrin:


Question: What intelligence is Roy using in this comic?

The only smart thing he does is make sure Belkar gets a move on, since it would be a safe bet that Belkar would just sit there and watch Roy get trashed. Otherwise, I'm not seeing anything that qualifies as a genius move. He's flailing with whatever he finds in hand.

Also, as others have pointed out, trying to outrun a class with a higher movement rate than he has, not too bright.
Using the potion bottle as an improvised weapon, especially to target the eyes, is rather clever. And lacking any actual weapon for the time being, running away to limit the number of attacks Thog gets in before the rage wears off is far from stupid.

[croaker36]

THANK YOU for the arrow in the sand. Lovely similarity to Gladiator.

[Stefanos Lion]

good to see hes back and posting regularly the glass to the eye pure genious :)

[Alge'n]

To all those who say Roy is stupid for trying to outrun a barbarian :
He's not trying to outrun him, he is just buying some time
-For Thog's rage to end, which seems like a VERY good idea, since it's the single thing that changed the outcome of the fight
-For his friends to have time to deal with the Linear Guild without Tarquin knowing.

Anyway, great comic! The Order is slowly reorganizing, I hope we'll see Durkon soon, he and Belkar could change things entirely.

[talkamancer]

Right eye, left eye and now glass eye.

Love it.

[Albion]

Gah! That broken glass in the face-moment is one of the more graphically brutal scenes in this stick figure comic. Thog hurt!

[Jay R]

I suspect that Roy is now running to his greatsword, which would make a significant difference in the fight.

[Scarlet Knight]

"Ladies and gentlemen, we will now have a 45-minute intermission as the arena staff scours the sand for every last crossbow bolt that was fired."
:smallannoyed:

Great! Can we request for the bonus panels of the next book one of a team of guards coming out, dragging rakes like at baseball games & singing Y-M-C-A ?

Ooo oo! Or a dinosaur powered zamboni! :smalltongue:

[HandofShadows]

YES! It's starting to turn around. (I hope!)

[MBI]

What happened to the rock in panels 1 and 2? Thog let go of it while holding it above his head, but Thog doesn't appear to have taken any damage off panel at all. There's not even a "thud" sound effect.

Also, I don't see how Ian having a potion amounts to Dues ex Machina. Not everything has to be foreshadowed. A character having an item which is relatively common is not lazy writing.

[zmasterofjersey]

I suspect that Roy is now running to his greatsword, which would make a significant difference in the fight.

He can't because his sword is in the stands. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0796.html)

GC as always.

[Psyren]

Assuming Thog is now blinded (even temporarily), Roy just bought himself a massive advantage. Miss chances SUCK.


And the best part - I'm pretty sure stopping to pick glass out of your face/eyes "requires patience and concentration" :smallamused:

[KingofMadCows]

If the weapons in the arena aren't cleaned up then the logical move for Roy would be to run for a weapon dropped by one of the previous gladiators. There's the scimitar dropped by the commoner Scruffy killed, the sword belonging to the guard who made fun of Belkar, and the head of Thog's axe.

As for Roy outrunning Thog, that's entirely feasible if he does it as a full round action. Thog would also need to run as a full round action to catch up.

Also, nothing Roy did was that smart. He got lucky with both the bolt and potion bottle, managing to bypass Thog's DR and score two good hits.

[Scarlet Knight]

He got lucky with both the bolt and potion bottle, managing to bypass Thog's DR and score two good hits.

No more lucky than Roy missing two rolls, first to drop his weapon & then to have Thog get to it first in order to kick it into the stands.

[Morquard]

If the weapons in the arena aren't cleaned up then the logical move for Roy would be to run for a weapon dropped by one of the previous gladiators. There's the scimitar dropped by the commoner Scruffy killed, the sword belonging to the guard who made fun of Belkar, and the head of Thog's axe.

There's a difference between swords and crossbow bolts. They carry the corpses out, its likely they also get their weapons. It's unlikely to search the entire arena for every crossbow bolt though.

[Burner28]

And here I was doubting Roy's chances:smalltongue:

[Devonix]

Roy can't take Thog in a straight up fight during his Rage so he's seemingly not trying to.

First attack was waiting for him to get close enough with a called action Called shot to his leg (most likely an attempt to hamper his movement speed so that Roy could keep away from him easier till the Rage

He then went to alerting his only other allie in the area as to whats going on and explaning why they had to keep things secret.

Second actuall attack was another called shot to the eye attempting to blind or at least temporarily hamper his opponents vision to once again makeit more difficult for the raging barbarian to catch him.

Roy is stalling for time and using everything he has to do so. and keeping the barbarian too focused on catching him that he won't try anything else.

[wolvins]

Yeah Belkar in action, now he can save mr. scruffy and kick everybody's *** :smallbiggrin:

[Raimun]

Whoa... just noticed it. Roy has lost his gladiator armor. No shoulderpads.

[Captain Alien]

Actually, he might have also made some serious damage on Thog's leg, reducing his speed. We'll be shown soon, but I bet that was the point on sticking an arrow in his leg. That is at least what I thought when I saw the panel. In D&D, this is actually possible. There are even rules for limb damage.

If not, it is still a better option than just fighting back.

EDIT: No one mentioned it until I started writing this post.

[faustin]

Another clever move for Roy would be try to lure the enraged, halfblinded Thog right towards the guards´crowsbows.

[Blaznak]

What a fun episode. I have to admit how nice the story flows together. Its one of the frustrating-in-a-fun-way bits of this strip: There are so many great characters we dont get to follow each and every bit of each and every one all the time. I do think we get a good balance between them, however, and this set of scenes is an excellent example.

Later!

[Red XIV]

Also, nothing Roy did was that smart. He got lucky with both the bolt and potion bottle, managing to bypass Thog's DR and score two good hits.
Just coming up with the idea to use a potion bottle as a weapon was smart. Normally they're just forgotten once you drink the potion, because there's no point in doing anything else. How common do you really think it is for a DM to hear something along the lines of "I smash my empty potion bottle in the charging enraged barbarian's eye"?

[Trufflehound]

The potion cured all the wounds except for the scratch on Roy´s chin. As far as I can tell that was caused by the masonry to the face. Do potions usually cure oldest wounds first?

[theinsulabot]

hah!

Good to know that Roy is still in the game. Makes me wonder why he offered his surrender just two comics before. He never did that before, so it was a truly desperate move.

And, by the way, we know see Thog's abysmal INT: No, he doesn't beat Roy when he is down. Instead, he searches for more boulders, giving him some time to recover his senses, find an arrow, get up and run away. I mean, Thog: You're faster, you're stronger, why do you spend precious rage time searching for big rocky improvised weapons!!


he surrendered in the fight against miko.

[Asthix]

Wow, three double page updates in the last four comics! Go Giant!

It just occurred to me how effectively the LG is pulling one over on Tarquin. Thog has been in place as 'the favored champion' for how long? One would assume he would at least take notice if he knew about Nale's presence.

[Timeless Error]

Hey, Roy's back in the game! *Sigh of relief*

[Shahadet]

"And as I was drawing that panel, I said to myself, "Someone will ask about the bolt within the first ten posts." :smallannoyed:

:smallbiggrin: ROTFLOL

You can take some small solace Rich in the fact that you know your fan base/constituency SO WELL!

Bloody good show going on though - I'm on pins and needles waiting for 799 and then the big 800 though!

[Machinekng]

For everyone saying that Roy can't run away from Thog...

If Roy does not plan to attack, he can use the run action, quadrupling his speed.


Run

A character with a Constitution score of 9 or higher can run for a minute without a problem. Generally, a character can run for a minute or two before having to rest for a minute.

With a base speed of 30ft, this would make out to be 120ft.

The farthest distance Thog can move, and then attack in the samw turn is 80ft, using a charge action. This is assuming that he's not carrying a rock.

Yes, Thog could also use the run action, if he sacrificed his attack.

Now if Thog catches up to Roy, to Run again, Roy would have to provoke an attack of oppurtunity to run away, and Thog could simply engage him again.

But Thog's not that smart, is he?

[whitemane]

hah!

Good to know that Roy is still in the game. Makes me wonder why he offered his surrender just two comics before. He never did that before, so it was a truly desperate move.



He offered to surrender because it was a better option then getting killed (again.) When Thog ignored his surrender, he probably figured "I don't have anything to lose by going down fighting..."

[pendell]

Loving this comic! Loving the action.

I have just one question.

WHERE in the 666 layers of the Abyss IS DURKON?

The way things are going, he might wind up facing off with Belkar as an antagonist.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[squidbreath]

gotta say, really nice weapon improvisation

[jidasfire]

Yep, this makes me happy. Roy is remembering that he has a brain, and wars aren't won in broad strokes, but in all the little ways you wear your opponent down and keep them in the dark (literally and figuratively in this case).

Still, the Order isn't out of the woods yet. Mr. Scruffy, Elan, Haley, and V are all in pretty bad spots right now, and who knows where Durkon is. Blackwing is probably okay, but he can't exactly beat Qarr either, and who knows what Tarquin's going to do when he figures out what's going on.

Also, to the people who think this is the dreaded DEM, once again, it's really not. Healing potions are not exactly in short supply in the OOTS world, and it's not absurd to think a master thief like Ian would have one stashed away somewhere. Now, if Ian had a greatsword hiding in his cage, that would be a stretch, and such accusations might be reasonable.

[Orzel]

Thats for the new idea for improvised weapons, Roy. I normally just saved my spent potions for the deposit.

Now I can sell them as weapons!

/lovable miser

[theinsulabot]

its not a dues ex machina that Ian had the potion, at all. we know for a fact he has gotten out of his cell repeatedly, he has picked the lock well over a dozen times now, and regularly has food smuggled in. having a secret stash of supplies that he had either walked out and sneaked back in or had smuggled to him with one of his meals is only logical.



Also, on a completely unrelated note, I feel the need to reiterate my previous statement because so many people keep bringing it up, this is not the first time roy has surrendered, Roy surrender's to miko when she defeats the order outside that inn that blew up.

[TheArsenal]

Let me say my opinions on this:

By INT I personaly think this can address to roy in his fighting style. He uses his wits and makes quick decisions that help him save his life. Its a natural opposite to Thog whos first and only tactic is "Attack". And running away prevents a full attack.

No this is not dues ex machina. Its realistic for Ian to have that healing potion-especialy since he recieves ocasional shipments from his...cousin? I forgot. The potion is small-its not like its a +3 magic flaming sword. Unexpected? yes. Dues ex machina? No.

[silvadel]

I wonder if, at the end of all this, Thog will say "Stupid Railroad Plot"

Aka #251 end.

[rbetieh]

I love the "sand in the eye" variant you used. Using super-heated and then cooled sand instead of actual sand :smallsmile:. Good show indeed, its nice to see Roy show his fighter cred.

[King of Nowhere]

horray for roy back in figth!

[faustin]

With a base speed of 30ft, this would make out to be 120ft.

The farthest distance Thog can move, and then attack in the samw turn is 80ft, using a charge action. This is assuming that he's not carrying a rock.

Yes, Thog could also use the run action, if he sacrificed his attack.

Now if Thog catches up to Roy, to Run again, Roy would have to provoke an attack of oppurtunity to run away, and Thog could simply engage him again.

But Thog's not that smart, is he?

Also, Roy wonded Thog´s leg with an arrow... that should count to his movement speed, even in rage.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[UtimaII]

"Ladies and gentlemen, we will now have a 45-minute intermission as the arena staff scours the sand for every last crossbow bolt that was fired."

It's from the dinosaur attack. They didn't clean them up.

And as I was drawing that panel, I said to myself, "Someone will ask about the bolt within the first ten posts." :smallannoyed:

I apologize in advance to Mr. Burlew. I by nature do not like to criticize professional authors (especially ones with a devoted fanbase such as this), but I feel that this has to be said.

If you knew that people would ask about the bolt and did not like the fact that they would (as evident in the tone of your post), then you should have explained the bolt's appearance in the strip. I actually stopped reading the strip to look at previous posts to see if the bolt had a foreshadowing appearance somewhere. After a while, I gave up and figured that you would tell us in the forums; which you did. But the point is, I shouldn't have had to ask, and you shouldn't have had to tell us. A good place to explain would have been the third panel. As Roy was running away, he could have said something like this: "Gee, glad they didn't clear away the bolts after the Allosaurus attack." That line would not have disrupted the pace of the strip, it would have immediatly explained the bolt's sudden appearance, and most importantly, it would not have forced us (the reader) to ask about the bolt.

Again, I apologize to you, Mr. Burlew. I have no idea what you have planned with the story, much less how you run your creative process. You are a superior storyteller that I could never hope be. But that was such a rookie mistake.



As for the rest of the strip, that was pure win. I liked the interaction between Belkar and Roy. Now that Belkar is trying to be likeable by others, he and Roy are starting to make a good team. And Ian lending a hand to Roy, that just proves that he may be stubborn, but he is still a good person. I do like the way this battle is going, in all its ups and downs for the heroes.

[Shale]

Re: Roy and quick thinking, how about him thinking through the consequences of an open Order/Guild battle in front of Tarquin despite the raging barbarian trying to crush his skull with a rock the size of Shaquille O'Neal?

[t209]

Why Roy didn't use the broken Potion bottle to stab Thog?

[Gift Jeraff]

When I first read the title, I thought maybe Qarr or Sabine would plane shift. Then when I saw the guards I was like, "Do they have bolts which plane shift the target?" Then I saw the wizard duel and thought Zz'dtri would use Plane Shift on V. Then the flashback made me think it was referring to the Snarl's demiplane. Then I thought maybe the last row would switch to the IFCC watching the battle. Finally, I went back and saw that it was called "Change of Plans," not Planes. :smallredface:

[sims796]

"Ladies and gentlemen, we will now have a 45-minute intermission as the arena staff scours the sand for every last crossbow bolt that was fired."

It's from the dinosaur attack. They didn't clean them up.

And as I was drawing that panel, I said to myself, "Someone will ask about the bolt within the first ten posts." :smallannoyed:

Well, in my defense, I sorta forgot the dino attack.

[HUMVEE Driver]

"Ladies and gentlemen, we will now have a 45-minute intermission as the arena staff scours the sand for every last crossbow bolt that was fired."

It's from the dinosaur attack. They didn't clean them up.

And as I was drawing that panel, I said to myself, "Someone will ask about the bolt within the first ten posts." :smallannoyed:

Heh.

I love seeing Roy use the improvised weapons. I wonder if he could have been trying to hamstring Thog with the crossbow bolt? Make it a little easier to avoid him until the rage is over?

I also like how he is fighting Thog by using his brain as well as his brawn. Roy gets cool points.

[Kibble Sage]

I apologize in advance to Mr. Burlew. I by nature do not like to criticize professional authors (especially ones with a devoted fanbase such as this), but I feel that this has to be said.

If you knew that people would ask about the bolt and did not like the fact that they would (as evident in the tone of your post), then you should have explained the bolt's appearance in the strip. I actually stopped reading the strip to look at previous posts to see if the bolt had a foreshadowing appearance somewhere. After a while, I gave up and figured that you would tell us in the forums; which you did. But the point is, I shouldn't have had to ask, and you shouldn't have had to tell us. A good place to explain would have been the third panel. As Roy was running away, he could have said something like this: "Gee, glad they didn't clear away the bolts after the Allosaurus attack." That line would not have disrupted the pace of the strip, it would have immediatly explained the bolt's sudden appearance, and most importantly, it would not have forced us (the reader) to ask about the bolt.

Again, I apologize to you, Mr. Burlew. I have no idea what you have planned with the story, much less how you run your creative process. You are a superior storyteller that I could never hope be. But that was such a rookie mistake.



As for the rest of the strip, that was pure win. I liked the interaction between Belkar and Roy. Now that Belkar is trying to be likeable by others, he and Roy are starting to make a good team. And Ian lending a hand to Roy, that just proves that he may be stubborn, but he is still a good person. I do like the way this battle is going, in all its ups and downs for the heroes.

I agree about the crossbow bolt. It's not nitpicking on the part of fans to wonder where it came from, it's only natural. And having Roy say "Thank the gods -- the lazy jerks didn't pick up the crossbow bolts earlier!" would have totally headed off any discussion on that score at least.

Excellent comic, one detail that could have been handled better, IMO.

[Adeptus]

The potion cured all the wounds except for the scratch on Roy´s chin. As far as I can tell that was caused by the masonry to the face. Do potions usually cure oldest wounds first?

D&D isn't that detailed. Damage is just done in very abstract hitpoints.

[silversaraph]

A question to Mr. Burlew: In situations like panel seven, do you draw the characters full sized, with all the details, and then shrink them down, or do you just draw the basic outline?

[wzeller]

I apologize in advance to Mr. Burlew.
That kind of apology is always insulting and insincere. Apologies are given when something was done done intentionally, or was done intentionally but then regretted. You posted intentionally, and if you regretted it then you wouldn't have posted it. To "apologize in advance" for it is really just admitting that you already know you're being rude for all the reasons you laid our for your rudeness, and demonstrates your insincerity in it's very utterance.

Anyway, one to the reason I'm bothering to respond:


If you knew that people would ask about the bolt and did not like the fact that they would [...] then you should have explained the bolt's appearance in the strip. [...] that was such a rookie mistake.

No. The rookie mistake would have been to pander to the lowest common denominator in his audience by assuming his readers are not intelligent enough to remember that the arena was already filled with lots and lots of crossbow bolts earlier. That's what's called foreshadowing. Some readers saw the arena having bolts shot into and thought, "Hey, bolts shot at sand. That should make for handy improvised weapons to later gladiators." For Rich to have used exposition to explain this as it was happening would have been insulting to his readers, and would have annoyed people who recognized the insult.

That some people wouldn't "get it" was inevitable, and Rich saw it coming. But he wisely told the story the right way.

So get off your high horse and either pay closer attention to the strip or stop complaining when something has to be explained to you by the author.

[/rant]

[Turgon9357]

I may be repeating someone else's thoughts. Ah well.

Thog will probably burn out soon, falling unconscious (after he adorably declares thog go nigh nigh). Thog is very much loved, so I doubt he'll be killed off (unless I'm wrong and the fight gets really, really epic, and would result in a worthy death.)

[Tundar]

Ouch, same eye as Redcloaks brother.

[sims796]

That kind of apology is always insulting and insincere. Apologies are given when something was done done intentionally, or was done intentionally but then regretted. You posted intentionally, and if you regretted it then you wouldn't have posted it. To "apologize in advance" for it is really just admitting that you already know you're being rude for all the reasons you laid our for your rudeness, and demonstrates your insincerity in it's very utterance.

Anyway, one to the reason I'm bothering to respond:



No. The rookie mistake would have been to pander to the lowest common denominator in his audience by assuming his readers are not intelligent enough to remember that the arena was already filled with lots and lots of crossbow bolts earlier. That's what's called foreshadowing. Some readers saw the arena having bolts shot into and thought, "Hey, bolts shot at sand. That should make for handy improvised weapons to later gladiators." For Rich to have used exposition to explain this as it was happening would have been insulting to his readers, and would have annoyed people who recognized the insult.

That some people wouldn't "get it" was inevitable, and Rich saw it coming. But he wisely told the story the right way.

So get off your high horse and either pay closer attention to the strip or stop complaining when something has to be explained to you by the author.

[/rant]

Jesus H. Christ man. He gives a crticism, and suddenly he needs to "get off of his high horse"? My word. It's not as if he said it to purposely insult Rich, he just had a slight problem.

And honestly, he was right. People firing at the Allosaurus wasn't a huge detail, it was something in one strip, that was overshadowed by an even bigger event (mainly, the giant dino allowing two known prisoners to escape). It isn't hard to forget that, in light of everything that's going on, we may have forgotten that they fired at the dino to begin with. To some, it seemed like Roy picked up the bolt out of nowhere.

There is absolutely, positively no reason to rant in such a childish way because someone didn't like how something is handled.

[Andorax]

So...is anyone else wondering if Thog took the Dungeon Crasher variant (retroactively, due to it coming out later than the original comic) when he took a two-level fighter dip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html)?

[Snowfall]

There is absolutely, positively no reason to rant in such a childish way because someone didn't like how something is handled.

Other than the "that was such a rookie mistake" bit...

[semi]

As for the potion, I won't call it a Deus Ex Machina but I think it could have been properly foreshadowed in an earlier strip; perhaps as an homage/ripoff to Shawshank Redemption where Ian references another convict who can "get things" and mention something like "food, drink, or a potion for what ales [yes, I spelled it that was as a pun, not because I don't know how to spell 'ail']" That way the idea of a potion would have been foreshadowed but also masked humor of quoting a movie/short story

When it comes to the bolt? First, I thought it was from Gladiator and if this were a novel/written work then I think some description of the arena being littered with weapons/ammunition of previous bouts would have occurred. As it's a strip, maybe one or two panels depicting 'stuff' on the floor of the arena would have been better.

And of course these are just the statements of an amateur not a professional writer/plotter/anything really. Just my two cents worth. I also don't see it as a rookie mistake but anything can be improved upon, even OoTS so perhaps that was the intent of the original poster who referenced it as such?

[HZ514]

Awesome comic, Giant! Roy getting back in the game and coming up with a plan, whoo! (Also, Roy actually made a spot check seeing V battle Z!) Can't wait to see Belkar go off on the LG. 800's shaping up to be quite the strip :smallbiggrin:

[sims796]

Other than the "that was such a rookie mistake" bit...

I may not be 100% on this, but I'm pretty sure Rich is a big boy who can take criticism. He felt it was a rookie mistake, and stated his reasons in a totally respectable manner. He damn well went out of his way to say that he's a fan, and that he loves what he's doing.

Honestly, I respect Rich and all, but he isn't a Messiah of web comics, nor is he a respected celebrity. He's a regular guy who's a good writer with a pretty popular web comic. If the best of them are open to criticism, why can't we? Unless it's a rule that says we are unable to criticise his work (not een like we're critcising him as a person).

As for me, I sorta figured that they had bolts from earlier bouts lying around, but he pulled it out kinda random, which threw me for a loop.

[Killer Angel]

If you knew that people would ask about the bolt and did not like the fact that they would (as evident in the tone of your post), then you should have explained the bolt's appearance in the strip.

It was evident to me when i first saw the strip, that was from the dino attack, with no need of explanations.
Not all readers are equals, and I know for sure that, during these years, I didn't notice a lot of things that for others were evident.
This doesn't means that Rich should explain all the details, where sufficient infos already exist in few previous pages. That would be bad writing.

[Scrynor]

If it hadn't been for very large (sick?) break in the comic nobody would have had too much trouble remembering the dino attack once they saw the bolt. Proper foreshadowing is done earlier and its supposed to slightly slip from your mind until you see the moment when it matters. If the events happened back to back or if the arrows were drawn on the ground there would have been plenty of predictions for an arrow weapon save move with Roy on the ground. A vocal reminder or flashback seems like it would have been nice because of the physical time gap but it'll read way better in book form or archive reading form without it.

Who cares about rude/not rude. A little bit of snippy back and forth isn't exactly new to forums. Let's move on from that point...

[Kibble Sage]

It was evident to me when i first saw the strip, that was from the dino attack, with no need of explanations.
Not all readers are equals, and I know for sure that, during these years, I didn't notice a lot of things that for others were evident.
This doesn't means that Rich should explain all the details, where sufficient infos already exist in few previous pages. That would be bad writing.

Because it's so hard to put in "wonderful -- they didn't clean up the crossbow bolts yet!", right?

Or better yet, just draw a few on the ground here and there. No explanation needed, and they're only a straight line with a V on the tip of it.

I knew the archers shot, actually, but the total absence of bolts anywhere seemed to indicate that the arrows had been picked up at some point. Then Roy gets an arrow out of nowhere, so it threw me for a loop, also.

It has nothing to do with lack of intelligence, as some people here have implied (or baldly stated). Go take a look at blooper sections for movies -- there are a lot of items that appear and disappear and then appear again, and pointing that out isn't usually taken to be a sign of stupidity there. It's just that the fans tend to notice continuity errors, even small ones, precisely because they do care about the story enough to examine it closely.

[Doug Lampert]

Jesus H. Christ man. He gives a crticism, and suddenly he needs to "get off of his high horse"? My word. It's not as if he said it to purposely insult Rich, he just had a slight problem.
If it's not insulting then why applogise in advance?

"No offense intended" and "appologies in advance" are key words TELLING YOU that whatever follows is deliberately and knowingly offensive and insulting.


And honestly, he was right. People firing at the Allosaurus wasn't a huge detail, it was something in one strip, that was overshadowed by an even bigger event (mainly, the giant dino allowing two known prisoners to escape). It isn't hard to forget that, in light of everything that's going on, we may have forgotten that they fired at the dino to begin with. To some, it seemed like Roy picked up the bolt out of nowhere.

Eh? It was a key element of an earlier strip from not long ago. Why explain again something you clearly forshadowed. Redundant explanations at short intervals will slow the story to a crawl and are a clear mistake.


There is absolutely, positively no reason to rant in such a childish way because someone didn't like how something is handled.

If that is true, then how do you explain your post which is NOTHING but a childish rant about how someone else handled something?

Show some self awareness. If you are ranting (which you did and I am doing) or insulting (which the post with the appology was), then BE AWARE of what you are doing.

Not following the plot and then compaining because YOU did't bother to remember what's happened or to follow what's happened, or to check the archive PROIR to assuming something wasn't forshadowed is not an error on Rich's part.

[Doug Lampert]

Because it's so hard to put in "wonderful -- they didn't clean up the crossbow bolts yet!", right?

It breaks the flow, it slows things down, and Rich puts in bits which were forshadowed in previous strips ALL THE TIME. Putting in an explanation for every one, even if it's just a one liner, would in fact ruin the comic, it would be adding several lines per strip on average for no purpose.

In this particular case the "long past" forshadowing that people can't remember happened 14 and 15 strips ago.

That's about 5 minutes reading, tops. You really want reminders throughout the book of significant multipanel events from only five minutes ago and you DON'T think that will hurt the strip?

Rich routinely lets things slide for 100 or more strips then brings them back. Reminders for anything that's been off screen for a bit over a dozen strips would tripple the strip length without adding anything of value.

[Kibble Sage]

If it's not insulting then why applogise in advance?

"No offense intended" and "appologies in advance" are key words TELLING YOU that whatever follows is deliberately and knowingly offensive and insulting.

Not at all. It can also be used, as in this case, to indicate that you have a valid criticism of an aspect of a creative work and not of the author themselves.

It's also because they know that certain more rabid posters are likely to flame them for any criticism of Rich's work, no matter how minor.

It's not "deliberately and knowingly offensive and insulting" to state that something could have been handled a little more clearly in a comic. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.




Eh? It was a key element of an earlier strip from not long ago. Why explain again something you clearly forshadowed. Redundant explanations at short intervals will slow the story to a crawl and are a clear mistake.


Yes, it really would have slowed the story to a crawl to draw in a couple of arrows lying on the ground here and there in the past few pages, especially since they're just a couple of simple lines. It would have been a clear mistake to show them, too.

Honestly, if you're going to show your character drinking tea, it's generally a good idea to show a teacup or teapot in the vicinity in previous frames of the scene, rather than an empty table up until the moment they drink it. It's not surprising if people wonder where the heck they got the teacup if it's not shown for fifteen strips, then suddenly reappears.



If that is true, then how do you explain your post which is NOTHING but a childish rant about how someone else handled something?

Show some self awareness. If you are ranting (which you did and I am doing) or insulting (which the post with the appology was), then BE AWARE of what you are doing.

Not following the plot and then compaining because YOU did't bother to remember what's happened or to follow what's happened, or to check the archive PROIR to assuming something wasn't forshadowed is not an error on Rich's part.

That post calling out the person who stated was nothing but personal insults and ranting. It is not inappropriate to call someone out on that.

And again, drawing a few arrows on the ground would have been proper foreshadowing. It was not done, and it is not inappropriate for people to ask where Roy got the arrow when proper foreshadowing was NOT done. The ball was dropped on the foreshadowing in the opinion of some people, including myself, and it is not a deadly insult to Mr. Burlew to point this out politely.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's just an issue of webcomic versus book. Online, it has been almost 4 months ("not too long ago"?) since we last saw the bolts (#784 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html) went up on 3/28). In print form, it would be like 10~30 minutes. IIRC, Rich has said he writes with both the online and print version in mind (hence the "deleted scenes" in DStP). This is probably just a case of leaning more towards the latter.

EDIT: Another thing to take into account is that a lot of people seem to regard Gannji and Enor as one-off side-characters, and probably stopped thinking about them the moment the Linear Guild was revealed.

[Lurkmoar]

Quick thinking on his feet. Good stuff. Interested in seeing what happens next.

Scene cut to Durokan maybe?

[Kibble Sage]

It breaks the flow, it slows things down, and Rich puts in bits which were forshadowed in previous strips ALL THE TIME. Putting in an explanation for every one, even if it's just a one liner, would in fact ruin the comic, it would be adding several lines per strip on average for no purpose.

In this particular case the "long past" forshadowing that people can't remember happened 14 and 15 strips ago.

That's about 5 minutes reading, tops. You really want reminders throughout the book of significant multipanel events from only five minutes ago and you DON'T think that will hurt the strip?

Rich routinely lets things slide for 100 or more strips then brings them back. Reminders for anything that's been off screen for a bit over a dozen strips would tripple the strip length without adding anything of value.

And drawing in a few arrows lying on the sand in previous strips would have "ruined the comic"? Because I also mentioned that.

I also don't think that having Roy say or think one short sentence would "triple the strip length".

The lack of bolts is a continuity error, plain and simple. One which could easily have been fixed, and which is no call for insulting the intelligence of other posters.

[One Skunk Todd]

Minor nitpick: "General Elan's Daddy"? Did Tarquin make Elan a general and I missed it? Or should it be "Elan's General Daddy"?

ETA: Also I notice the Giant drew tiny wound marks on Thog's knee in the last couple of panels so I suspect he's definitely slowed.

[Zejety]

Minor nitpick: "General Elan's Daddy"? Did Tarquin make Elan a general and I missed it? Or should it be "Elan's General Daddy"?

It's
General (Elan's Daddy)

[Mutant Sheep]

Minor nitpick: "General Elan's Daddy"? Did Tarquin make Elan a general and I missed it? Or should it be "Elan's General Daddy"?

ETA: Also I notice the Giant drew tiny wound marks on Thog's knee in the last couple of panels so I suspect he's definitely slowed.

The second one, but it works phrased either way. It's General Elan's Daddy as in, he's a general and he's Elan's dad. I'm confused how having Roy NOT say something in this kinda text heavy update, apparently when he was panting and seeing guards at the exit, is a rookie mistake. Takes 4 seconds to think back and remember "oh yeah, dinosaur was badass". Having him say "Good thing that crossbow bolt was there" ruins the growing tense mood. Ian is the joke dude right now, not Roy.:smalltongue:
Edit:KHAAAAAAAAAAAAANNINJA"D

[Scrynor]

You can't just have Roy say, "Gee I'm glad they didn't clean up and that arrow was there". That's basically exposition. This strip almost never has characters talk if they are not talking to someone. They almost never just thought bubble what they are thinking. You can't just change the mechanics of a long story because it is currently convenient. Not to mention Roy would have like 1000 more pressing things on his mind at this time of crisis if he was speaking his thoughts aloud to nobody in particular than where he got the arrow from.

I think your real complaint is that you feel like the arrow just sorta teleported in from nowhere. An action based solution would work way better. Something along the lines of a three panel 1) Thog picking up a new rock 2) Roy digging and the arrow out of the sand and gripping it 3) Roy stabbing Thog in the leg as he is about to slam home the boulder.

I'm sure The Giant considered this but he works in a panel limited medium and he had to weigh that montage against his plans for the other panels and he made his choice.

Your criticism is valid since you clearly feel it was a bit jarring and the time it took to figure it out took away from the surprise and delight of Roy's sudden success, but we might as well focus on the real issue at hand.

[theinsulabot]

As for the potion, I won't call it a Deus Ex Machina but I think it could have been properly foreshadowed in an earlier strip; perhaps as an homage/ripoff to Shawshank Redemption where Ian references another convict who can "get things" and mention something like "food, drink, or a potion for what ales [yes, I spelled it that was as a pun, not because I don't know how to spell 'ail']" That way the idea of a potion would have been foreshadowed but also masked humor of quoting a movie/short story



I would like to reiterate, we already know Ian was having items smuggled in on a weekly basis.

[Captain Alien]

Jesus H. Christ man. He gives a crticism, and suddenly he needs to "get off of his high horse"? My word. It's not as if he said it to purposely insult Rich, he just had a slight problem.

And honestly, he was right. People firing at the Allosaurus wasn't a huge detail, it was something in one strip, that was overshadowed by an even bigger event (mainly, the giant dino allowing two known prisoners to escape).

I think UtimaII apologized in advance to avoid this situation. He, as The Giant, knows the fanbase.

But I don't agree with any of you. He didn't have to show anything previously. It isn't even that random. Lots of guards shooting bolts to the arena like twenty strips earlier is not at all obscure. Even if you weren't paying that much attention, it is a minor action in a single panel.

I don't think Rich made a single mistake in this strip. See, if you have seen The Dark Knight, there is one scene where Batman throws the Joker towards a window. He smashes it with his head, and it breaks superficially. In the next scene, The Joker takes a piece of glass big and sharp enough to use it as a weapon on a cop.

Perfectly legit, in my opinion.

[Kibble Sage]

You can't just have Roy say, "Gee I'm glad they didn't clean up and that arrow was there". That's basically exposition. This strip almost never has characters talk if they are not talking to someone. They almost never just thought bubble what they are thinking. You can't just change the mechanics of a long story because it is currently convenient. Not to mention Roy would have like 1000 more pressing things on his mind at this time of crisis if he was speaking his thoughts aloud to nobody in particular than where he got the arrow from.

I think your real complaint is that you feel like the arrow just sorta teleported in from nowhere. An action based solution would work way better. Something along the lines of a three panel 1) Thog picking up a new rock 2) Roy digging and the arrow out of the sand and gripping it 3) Roy stabbing Thog in the leg as he is about to slam home the boulder.

I'm sure The Giant considered this but he works in a panel limited medium and he had to weigh that montage against his plans for the other panels and he made his choice.

Your criticism is valid since you clearly feel it was a bit jarring and the time it took to figure it out took away from the surprise and delight of Roy's sudden success, but we might as well focus on the real issue at hand.

Thank you for contributing in a logical, polite, well reasoned way to the debate. I'm actually inclined to agree with you. :smallsmile:

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a good way to counter an argument rather than just telling other people to sit down and shut up.

Kudos to Scrynor for bringing some civilized debate to the table here.

[Wonton]

Does anyone else think that those gaps in the windows look far too big to contain a person anyway? :smalltongue:

I mean, just looking at the size of them compared to the size of an OOTS person, I'm pretty sure a human would have no trouble fitting through them (and definitely no trouble for a halfling).

[Porthos]

As for the potion, I won't call it a Deus Ex Machina but I think it could have been properly foreshadowed in an earlier strip;

Why?

No, seriously, why?

Why must everything be foreshadowed?

It never occured to me that Roy finding an arrow was bad literary techinque, or that Ian having a potion of "X" would be unreasonable. It's not as if he found a laser pistol lying on the ground. And its not as if Ian whipped out a scroll of resurrection. These were common items in a setting where it is natural to find them.

So why did it need to be foreshadowed? I, mean, really now, we don't need a Chekhov's Gun for every little thing that happens. :smallwink:

[SoC175]

If I was a betting man, I'd put money on Roy at this point. Thog's rage should wear off any round now and Roy gained back most his HP if we are to go by the red scratches.well, a typical D&D fight takes a lot of RL time, but actually surprisingly little actual D&D rounds. And a high level barbarian can rage for a looong time

[rbetieh]

Even if they had cleaned up the Arena, the floor of the Arena is sand and it would have taken hours to rake that up perfectly. It just doesnt flow from actuall gladiatorial combat that they would do that. So Roy finding and using "something" in the arena is logical. There is still plenty to choose from, rocks, armor, bones. All of these things could still be in the sand somewhere and usable. Now, if he pulls out a chainsaw and shotgun, Ill disbelieve that.

As for a potion, seems reasonable for a Rogue to sneak one in, question is was this a straight up curative potion or a potion of Greater heroism or the such that adds bonus HP.

Roy sure has a lot of HP it seems, must have taken feats from the toughness tree.

[kivzirrum]

Nice to see that Roy can still hold his own! I knew he was too tough to get his ass kicked without giving some back.

I am definitely a big fan of Thog (my third favorite character, behind Roy and Elan), but he's still a villain, and I still hope he gets what is coming to him in this fight.

[Demonic1000]

My Prediction:

I also believe Thog will die at strip 800. I do, however, think it'll happen in a rare way reserved for barbarians.

If Thog goes down to 8 Hit Points or less and his rage ends, he will lose 18 HP instantaneous (assuming level 11 or higher barbarian), killing him.

I for one, can't wait to see him fall :roy:

[Holy_Knight]

These last few strips made Roy look really pathetic - he was idiotic enough to reject prison breakout plan, was outsmarted by Thog - of all things! - and is saved by no merit of his own (with all his arrogance as a leader)...

I think you're way off on this one. Given the information he had, rejecting the breakout plan made sense. More importantly, he wasn't saved "through no merit of his own", it was because of his merits as a leader that Geoff helped him. Roy comes up with a plan in which he's willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of his team and what's right, and because of that act of leadership, Geoff gives him the healing potion. It's Roy's brains and his character that are helping him turn this fight around.

[super dark33]

I think you're way off on this one. Given the information he had, rejecting the breakout plan made sense. More importantly, he wasn't saved "through no merit of his own", it was because of his merits as a leader that Geoff helped him. Roy comes up with a plan in which he's willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of his team and what's right, and because of that act of leadership, Geoff gives him the healing potion. It's Roy's brains and his character that are helping him turn this fight around.

You mean Ian gave him the potion and helped him.

Ian= Haley's dad
Geoff=Haley's uncle with a wooden leg.

[CelestialMagpie]

Hooray for Roy!

As for the INT debate - if I were near death (supposedly), I'm not sure I would have the intelligence to feel around for a weapon - which is what it looks like Roy is doing. And then, after stabbing my attacker in the leg, I manage to formulate and deliver a plan to my ally, and then use a second improvised weapon, while running away? That to me shows great intelligence - or at least wonderful improvisation skills.

I'm really rooting for Roy on this one - he's perhaps my favorite character :smallsmile:

[JSSheridan]

"I need to stay here and put on a good show for General 'Elan's Daddy' until they're all beaten."

I didn't know Elan was a General. :smalltongue:

Though if he and Tarquin part on good terms (from Tarquin's PoV), I could see Tarquin making him a Major or even Colonel.

I needed a second take to get what Roy really meant though.

[Zeful]

I don't know, man. On the one hand, Roy's loss in this fight was pretty much a foregone conclusion once he lost his sword and, by extension, the use of his specialization feats, but on the other, it's nice to see him turn around the fight, coming close to victory even if only by attrition.

My problem with it is that it basically amounts to a deus ex machina - yes, I can believe that a thief would have smuggled in potions for emergencies, but I don't believe it's been foreshadowed at all.

Or has it? I'm off to check the archives...

EDIT: While I'm at it, another thought! Where was that potion being hidden this whole time, Ian's crotch? Ewwwwww!

THAT. IS NOT. WHAT. THAT. MEANS!

A Deus Ex Machina is not some random unforeshadowed thing the audience doesn't like. It never has been and it never will be. It is something that comes in at the last minute to solve the entire plot or subplot. The fight is still clearly going on, and unless the glass kills Thog in the first panel of the next page the potion can't be a Deus Ex. The only difference between the fight before and now, is the climax of the fight is closer because of all the building up it's gotten as a subplot.

Stop using it to mean "I don't like this".

[JackRackham]

Roy may have just given Thog the prerequisite for a prestige class (Eye of Gruumsh). It's entirely possible Thog has Destructive Rage (based on his escape from prison with Elan), which is another of the requirements.

I can't see this actually happening - the class is basically an orc leader and I can't see thog in that role or that scenario having a place in this comic - but I noticed a confluence of coincidences (The eye, Thog being a half-orc barbarian, the possibility of the destructive rage feat), that could end up justifying for this.

[Mutant Sheep]

THAT. IS NOT. WHAT. THAT. MEANS!
A Deus Ex Machina is not some random unforeshadowed thing the audience doesn't like. It never has been and it never will be. It is something that comes in at the last minute to solve the entire plot or subplot. The fight is still clearly going on, and unless the glass kills Thog in the first panel of the next page the potion can't be a Deus Ex. The only difference between the fight before and now, is the climax of the fight is closer because of all the building up it's gotten as a subplot.
Stop using it to mean "I don't like this".
But then there's no trope on TvTropes for my feelings! What could I complain about if I didn't have my deus ex machina!?! Just because TvTropes exists doesn't mean you need to use it. Wish Spod was here :(

[semi]

Why?

No, seriously, why?

Why must everything be foreshadowed?



Since you asked, I'll just say that the 'Why' for me was that had it been, let us not say 'properly' foreshadowed but 'more clearly foreshadowed' then half this argument (potion not arrow/bolt) would not have existed.

And just to toot my own horn, had the mention of a potion been made in a manner similar to the example I put forward it would have been an item foreshadowed while being hidden inside a joke and not something that just screamed Chekov.

All things do not need to be foreshadowed and not everything has to be utilized once mentioned but for myself at least I admit that I found the use of the potion slightly jarring to my reading of the comic but I am also more than happy to concede that this jarring feeling might have been due to my own intellectual failings (although I'd point out I was a member of MENSA but they let anyone in these days (I would be a good example of that actually))

[Snowfall]

Honestly, I respect Rich and all, but he isn't a Messiah of web comics, nor is he a respected celebrity. He's a regular guy who's a good writer with a pretty popular web comic. If the best of them are open to criticism, why can't we? Unless it's a rule that says we are unable to criticise his work (not een like we're critcising him as a person).



In one discussion we have a rookie, in the other a Messiah. Those are person labels, not work labels.

Using person labels like those to illustrate points, in an online forum, increases the likelihood of rants.

That's just my opinion, though. Plenty of those raining down on the floors of these forums, but I figured I should point it out.

[semi]

Roy may have just given Thog the prerequisite for a prestige class (Eye of Gruumsh).

Don't Gruumishians have to poke their own eye out? And not complain/moan either?

[Scrynor]

I dunno, I actually kind of like it with how loose it is.

It feels almost like reverse character development where Iain's previously stated abilities are being justified through current actions.

They mentioned him smuggling items in and showed him and Belkar pretty much treating prison security like a joke. He's also able to survive in gladitorial prison as an old rogue. Despite his methods to avoid getting selected he's clearly been in a few times.

That stuff was enough for me I guess so him having some potions stashed made sense in my book. I'm sure it's all personal preference though on how much justification your personal sense of disbelief requires...

[Klear]

THAT. IS NOT. WHAT. THAT. MEANS!

I've got a feeling that the way it's used nowadays, the term might have evolved enough to encompass this meaning as well. Especially if there is no better way to describe that. Everybody knows what you mean by deus ex machina immediately, even if you use it incorrectly, so what's the harm? Languages evolve... sadly...

[theinsulabot]

ETA: Also I notice the Giant drew tiny wound marks on Thog's knee in the last couple of panels so I suspect he's definitely slowed.

that arrow actually went all the way through thog's leg. in any normal person it would be a miracle just to be able to support his weight. I suspect thog isnt going to fall over, but even for DnD, him being able to achieve full movement speed with a hole in his leg is....unlikely.

[Aurenthal]

Loved the "Does Durkon need to bathe more?" answer
:smallcool:

[Zeful]

I've got a feeling that the way it's used nowadays, the term might have evolved enough to encompass this meaning as well. Especially if there is no better way to describe that. Everybody knows what you mean by deus ex machina immediately, even if you use it incorrectly, so what's the harm? Languages evolve... sadly...

It may be true that Deus Ex Machina has come to mean "I don't like this" on the internet, but general usage on the internet and in the real life are two completely different things, and as far as I know the spoken phrase isn't used all that often except when, you know, something actually is a Deus Ex.

[JSSheridan]

that arrow actually went all the way through thog's leg. in any normal person it would be a miracle just to be able to support his weight. I suspect thog isnt going to fall over, but even for DnD, him being able to achieve full movement speed with a hole in his leg is....unlikely.

Yet Thog has the traction to clock Roy with a boulder and get enough speed to slam Roy into the wall.

[Mutant Sheep]

I've got a feeling that the way it's used nowadays, the term might have evolved enough to encompass this meaning as well. Especially if there is no better way to describe that. Everybody knows what you mean by deus ex machina immediately, even if you use it incorrectly, so what's the harm? Languages evolve... sadly...

Auggghhhhh, the classic Language evolves argument! MAKE IT STOP! IT BURNS! :smalltongue: Yes I know you said sadly.

[sims796]

If that is true, then how do you explain your post which is NOTHING but a childish rant about how someone else handled something?

Show some self awareness. If you are ranting (which you did and I am doing) or insulting (which the post with the appology was), then BE AWARE of what you are doing.

Not following the plot and then compaining because YOU did't bother to remember what's happened or to follow what's happened, or to check the archive PROIR to assuming something wasn't forshadowed is not an error on Rich's part.

I'd answer this myself (as I never said that I wasn't ranting), but this post sums it up perfectly.


That post calling out the person who stated was nothing but personal insults and ranting. It is not inappropriate to call someone out on that.

And again, drawing a few arrows on the ground would have been proper foreshadowing. It was not done, and it is not inappropriate for people to ask where Roy got the arrow when proper foreshadowing was NOT done. The ball was dropped on the foreshadowing in the opinion of some people, including myself, and it is not a deadly insult to Mr. Burlew to point this out politely.

Thanks Kibble, for putting it in a better way than I could have. If you can't take an opposing opinion, log out. But don't spout off as rudely like the one that I have quoted did, directly insulting the person whom made such criticism. It's childish through and through.



It's just an issue of webcomic versus book. Online, it has been almost 4 months ("not too long ago"?) since we last saw the bolts (#784 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html) went up on 3/28). In print form, it would be like 10~30 minutes. IIRC, Rich has said he writes with both the online and print version in mind (hence the "deleted scenes" in DStP). This is probably just a case of leaning more towards the latter.

EDIT: Another thing to take into account is that a lot of people seem to regard Gannji and Enor as one-off side-characters, and probably stopped thinking about them the moment the Linear Guild was revealed.

But this is the main thing here. Nobody's saying that the Giant made some gigantic error here, nobody's criticising him in an especially harsh way, it just seemed like he pulled out that arrow from nowhere, like a blooper, and he could have handled that better. It was an easily forgettable event, at best. The bolt was from a comic that was released four months ago, and that wasn't a teriffically important event. The firing of the bolts, not the giant dino attack. It was for two side characters that isn't even all that relevant, especially compared to what's going on now.


I think your real complaint is that you feel like the arrow just sorta teleported in from nowhere. An action based solution would work way better. Something along the lines of a three panel 1) Thog picking up a new rock 2) Roy digging and the arrow out of the sand and gripping it 3) Roy stabbing Thog in the leg as he is about to slam home the boulder.

I'm sure The Giant considered this but he works in a panel limited medium and he had to weigh that montage against his plans for the other panels and he made his choice.

Your criticism is valid since you clearly feel it was a bit jarring and the time it took to figure it out took away from the surprise and delight of Roy's sudden success, but we might as well focus on the real issue at hand.

Oh, and this as well.


And as for Ian giving Roy a potion, I feel that was handled properly. Yes, not everything needs to be forshadowed, and it's reasonable, given what we already know of him, that he would have a potion tucked away. He is Haley's father, ater all.

[theinsulabot]

Yet Thog has the traction to clock Roy with a boulder and get enough speed to slam Roy into the wall.


there is a difference between running and running at full speed. Thog can still move at a decent clip, but can he do as he normally would and outpace roy while raging? he only has a few rounds to go. he fatigues and roy picks up a stick, and Roy is going to be in great shape to end this fight.

[Mutant Sheep]

there is a difference between running and running at full speed. Thog can still move at a decent clip, but can he do as he normally would and outpace roy while raging? he only has a few rounds to go. he fatigues and roy picks up a stick, and Roy is going to be in great shape to end this fight.

But then the allosaurus will come back and eat Qarr, and we'll all be confused again.

[Porthos]

Since you asked, I'll just say that the 'Why' for me was that had it been, let us not say 'properly' foreshadowed but 'more clearly foreshadowed' then half this argument (potion not arrow/bolt) would not have existed.

As even a cursory glance of the internet will show, people will argue about anything. :smallwink:


All things do not need to be foreshadowed and not everything has to be utilized once mentioned but for myself at least I admit that I found the use of the potion slightly jarring to my reading of the comic but I am also more than happy to concede that this jarring feeling might have been due to my own intellectual failings (although I'd point out I was a member of MENSA but they let anyone in these days (I would be a good example of that actually))

As I said earlier, it didn't even enter my mind to find this strange or unusual. As I look at it, I apply the "Is it reasonable" test.

A) Is it reasonable that arrows are strewn about arena floor? Very much so, IMO. In fact, if we apply the (IMO somewhat arbitrary) "something doesn't happen unless I see it/it is foreshadowed" test, then the arrows must still be there since we never saw them get cleaned up. :smallwink:

I would also point out that for all of the detail that is put in, OotS is still a minimalist art form. So the lack of arrows seen on the arena floor is easily handwaved away.

B) As for the potion, it has also been established that Ian Starshine is very good at escaping the jail (if not quite as good at staying out :smalltongue:). So having various supplies on hand to aid him in escape attempts seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Also, the "I was saving this for an emergency, but I'm giving it to you" is a well known and established cliche trope. Albeit subverted by making clear that Ian was selling this not giving it.

So at least for me, both the arrow and the potion pass the "was it reasonable" test.

---

Expanding slightly outward, the reason for lack of foreshadowing is fairly simple in my mind. While I don't want to put words in Rich's mouth, it seems clear to me that he wanted to make it seem that Roy was in very big jeopardy here. Perhaps mortal. And he didn't want people to think, "Well, as long as Roy can grab an arrow/get the potion from Ian, he'll be fine." Instead, Rich wanted tension.

And having a clearly established/foreshadowed way for Roy to get out of the jam would lessen that tension. At least potentiality. So, for me, that is reason enough not to have foreshadowed Ian having a handy potion of healing, or reminding people every single panel that there arrows on the ground. Being able to say "BLOOP YEAH!" when Roy attacked Thog relieved the tension that had been forming in a dramatically appropaite way. As a certain bard would say. :smallwink:

So far from this being a "rookie mistake" as another poster put it, it was serving the time-honored tradition of dramatic tropes. :smallsmile:

[FujinAkari]

I've got a feeling that the way it's used nowadays, the term might have evolved enough to encompass this meaning as well. Especially if there is no better way to describe that. Everybody knows what you mean by deus ex machina immediately, even if you use it incorrectly, so what's the harm? Languages evolve... sadly...

No, Deus Ex has a very explicit and well-defined meaning. It is a specific literary term, like "Biography" or "Flashback." When people use the term incorrectly, that isn't language evolving, that is people using the term incorrectly.

If someone says that they hired someone to write their auto-biography then they're using the term wrong, they aren't evolving the language.

If you use Dues-Ex to describe something which has been introduced previously, then you're using it wrong (not to mention that an actual Dues-Ex resolves the conflict)

[awibs]

I've got a feeling that the way it's used nowadays, the term might have evolved enough to encompass this meaning as well.

Ironically enough, the "idiot's definiton" of "ironic" is in the dictionary now...

Also, Giant, let me add my voice to the usual accolades. I always love OOTS, but I more than just the usual grin, I quite literally laughed out loud at the "Just regular crass" line.

[sims796]

As even a cursory glance of the internet will show, people will argue about anything. :smallwink:

A) Is it reasonable that arrows are strewn about arena floor? Very much so, IMO. In fact, if we apply the (IMO arbitrary) "something doesn't happen unless I see it/it is foreshadowed" test, then the arrows must still be there since we never saw them get cleaned up. :smallwink:


So far from this being a "rookie mistake" as another poster put it, it was serving the time-honored tradition of dramatic tropes. :smallsmile:

I didn't feel like such a large quotem forgive me.

While I do disagree with the last point (sarcasm: which means I think your a horrible person who shouldn't be on the internet /sarcasm), I agree that it isn't all too implausable that there would be bolts on the floor. This is why you can basically scoff this away as a minor blooper if you have a problem with it.

[Burner28]

As even a cursory glance of the internet will show, people will argue about anything. :smallwink:



Yes, even Thog's alignment despite him clearly being Evil!:smalltongue:

[Icedaemon]

I've got a feeling that the way it's used nowadays, the term might have evolved enough to encompass this meaning as well. Especially if there is no better way to describe that. Everybody knows what you mean by deus ex machina immediately, even if you use it incorrectly, so what's the harm? Languages evolve... sadly...

Because the people using the term itself in the stated incorrect manner are as often as not ignorant of what it means and are just going for it because using a latin term makes them look smarter than they actually are.

As for Thog becoming an Eye of Gruumsh - perhaps Nale dies for good in this fight (let's be honest, he does not really have many fresh-ish plots or roles to fit into past this one), Thog and Sabine might act as the leaders of the Guild in their final confrontation; the former appearing to be the leader, the latter the actual commander.

[KingofMadCows]

No more lucky than Roy missing two rolls, first to drop his weapon & then to have Thog get to it first in order to kick it into the stands.

Except Thog didn't need to be lucky to beat Roy in those two rolls since he was raging and had the strength advantage. Roy would have also been shaken if Thog had intimidating rage.

With the bolt and potion bottle, Roy would have needed to score critical hits. Even then, the bolt shouldn't have been that effective. Roy's punches didn't do anything and the bolt only does 1 more damage.


Just coming up with the idea to use a potion bottle as a weapon was smart. Normally they're just forgotten once you drink the potion, because there's no point in doing anything else. How common do you really think it is for a DM to hear something along the lines of "I smash my empty potion bottle in the charging enraged barbarian's eye"?

No it's not. Roy's not exactly pulling a Jackie Chan here. People who are desperate tend to use anything they can find as weapons. Otherwise, prison inmates are geniuses for being able to fashion shivs out of toothbrushes.

[Ekul]

TVTropes can't really be blamed for this one because it has a term - AssPull - that is used the way it's usually used incorrectly. This term is also inappropriate for this situation.

Frankly, if every little thing was REQUIRED to be foreshadowed, it would make all of fictionland incredibly easy to predict and unrealistic. It's a crossbow bolt, it's not some magic weapon of arcane power that will change the entire campaign setting. It belongs there. As with the potion. It is within his character, and it's a relatively common item. It's no more Deus Ex Machina than Z having Dimension Door is.

[berrew]

I think it's been too long since I said that I love this strip.

I think that about covers it.

Well, OK - I loved the way this strip pulled together a number of disparate elements - Roy seeing the fights, the "new" Belkar, Ian's abilities and basic avariciousness, and a reasonable way to let a fighter continue to survive against a barbarian in a fight that's clearly tilted towards Thog's strengths. All that, and a nod towards the overall story arc.

[Holy_Knight]

You mean Ian gave him the potion and helped him.

Ian= Haley's dad
Geoff=Haley's uncle with a wooden leg.
Whoops! That is what I meant. Thanks, Super Dark.



Expanding slightly outward, the reason for lack of foreshadowing is fairly simple in my mind. While I don't want to put words in Rich's mouth, it seems clear to me that he wanted to make it seem that Roy was in very big jeopardy here. Perhaps mortal. And he didn't want people to think, "Well, as long as Roy can grab an arrow/get the potion from Ian, he'll be fine." Instead, Rich wanted tension.

And having a clearly established/foreshadowed way for Roy to get out of the jam would lessen that tension. At least potentiality. So, for me, that is reason enough not to have foreshadowed Ian having a handy potion of healing, or reminding people every single panel that there arrows on the ground. Being able to say "BLOOP YEAH!" when Roy attacked Thog relieved the tension that had been forming in a dramatically appropaite way. As a certain bard would say. :smallwink:

So far from this being a "rookie mistake" as another poster put it, it was serving the time-honored tradition of dramatic tropes. :smallsmile:
That's what I ws thinking too, Porthos. Having him reach for the arrow off-panel makes for a better, more dramatic strip than if it had been specifically shown ahead of time.


No, Deus Ex has a very explicit and well-defined meaning. It is a specific literary term, like "Biography" or "Flashback." When people use the term incorrectly, that isn't language evolving, that is people using the term incorrectly.

If someone says that they hired someone to write their auto-biography then they're using the term wrong, they aren't evolving the language.

If you use Dues-Ex to describe something which has been introduced previously, then you're using it wrong (not to mention that an actual Dues-Ex resolves the conflict)
Exactly.

[137beth]

Single use improvised weapon...charging someone for 1d4+str modifier damage IS a bit excessive.

[Incom]

As we say around my neck of the woods:

ROY'S OUR BOY!
ROY'S OUR BOY!
ROY'S OUR BOY!

;)

Predictions for next strip?

[resound]

I think Roy is more likely to try to make Thog submit, using hand-to-hand combat (as in forcing Thog to say "Mate", and thus, humiliating him). Note that Roy surrendered, but Thog didn't accept it. I think if the tables were turned, Roy would agree to Thog's surrender.

[paddyfool]

A few predictions for stuff that could happen:


- Roy could, if he's ruthless, draw Thog's aggressive attention to the guards by getting them to start talking a lot somehow. Maybe throw them some random comment that would start a debate among them, or maybe something along the lines of them saying: "You know you're not supposed to get help", him replying "Oh. Could I check the rules on [doing X]"? (And given the nature of this LE state, there may be long and complex rules to explain).
- Belkar could also very well die on strip 800. There's still a hostile [Durkon counterpart] out there, plus the Linear Guild ranger/rogue doesn't seem like a pushover. Etc.
- After the fight, Tarquin might have a chat with Roy a la the one Elan had, and introduce him to a little thing called ToB. A level of Warblade wouldn't go amiss even without retraining...

[ss49]

Roy should tell Ian "Hey, thanks for the gift!"

[fruityjanitor]

Yes, even Thog's alignment despite him clearly being Evil!:smalltongue:

I thought his alignment was Chaotic Cuddly! :smallbiggrin:

Note: the above line is a joke. I know Thog is evil. Please do not use it as an excuse to start a debate about Thog's alignment.

More on topic: great strip! Can't wait to see the Belkster in action. I'm expecting something awesome or tragic (or perhaps both) to happen on page 800 (but I won't be too surprised if nothing happens again).

[luc258]

As we say around my neck of the woods:

ROY'S OUR BOY!
ROY'S OUR BOY!
ROY'S OUR BOY!

;)

Predictions for next strip?

My guess: It's been Roy upper hand (destroys weapon)- Thog upper hand (destroys Roy) - Roy getting back (potion, crossbow bolt and flask in face) - ???

??? will probably be Thog again.

[theinsulabot]

going back to the thog's leg/hindered thing, I cant tell for sure, but it looks like he is favoring it in the second to last panel.

[Shoelessgdowar]

No, Deus Ex has a very explicit and well-defined meaning. It is a specific literary term, like "Biography" or "Flashback." When people use the term incorrectly, that isn't language evolving, that is people using the term incorrectly.

If someone says that they hired someone to write their auto-biography then they're using the term wrong, they aren't evolving the language.

If you use Dues-Ex to describe something which has been introduced previously, then you're using it wrong (not to mention that an actual Dues-Ex resolves the conflict)

Okay, I'm going to argue this only minorly, because of a technicality in your choice of term to use. There are a select group of people who are hired and despite being technically wrong for someone else to write an autobiography, Ghostwriters do it all the time. So, only because there is a way to hire someone to write your autobiography does your explanation fall through. However, usually if someone mentions they're having their autobiography ghostwritten, they're essentially squandering the entire premise of having a ghostwriter for an autobiography, and might as well just say "I'm having someone write my biography for me."

On that note, I saw no deity in the machine here. The arrows were perfectly reasonable, believable, possibly even predictable or even expected. Ian's potion was a touch of a 'Plot Point' as my buddy puts it, but while a touch of a stretch it was not beyond the basic suspension of disbelief one should take when looking at a D&D themed webcomic. Do I think the potion was a touch contrived, sure, but some only way out because the hand of heaven arrived and plucked it from no where as the only way for Roy to win, heck no, deus ex machina this was not.

For those who care of the real origin of the term, it comes from stage plays, where the protagonists would get into a situation that there was no realistic way out out, and then a literal device (also the origin of the term plot device) or machine was used to pluck them out of the play and place them in a safe place as a hand or act of the G-Ds, thereby the term the deus (G-D) ex (from or out of) machina (the machine or device). In all technicality if the save is not complete and total and it was not by some complete miracle, then it was not a Deus Ex Machina.

---------------------------------------------

Personally I thought this strip was well done, and as for the person who just noticed Roy's missing armor... it was destroyed here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0796.html) in the CRRNSH! panel.

Soon Belkar shall begin his rampage, and we will soon enough see his rage color.

[Klear]

...also, Deus Ex isn't a literary term, but a computer game.

Anyway, I wasn't arguing that that's how we should be using the term deus ex machina, I was just pointing out that it's on the verge of becoming acceptable, if it isn't already.

Deus ex machina in loose sense. Why not?

[Kojiro]

Well, it's not so much "loose" as "outright incorrect", that's one reason why not.

[Zeful]

...also, Deus Ex isn't a literary term, but a computer game.

Anyway, I wasn't arguing that that's how we should be using the term deus ex machina, I was just pointing out that it's on the verge of becoming acceptable, if it isn't already.

Deus ex machina in loose sense. Why not?

Because the literary term, hasn't actually changed it's meaning. If a critic claimed a Deus Ex Machina, he means one thing, and only one thing and if he were wrong, his peers, his audience, and his editor would tear him apart. That more people are using it incorrectly is merely because Tvtropes popularized the term, and people don't research what they are talking about, not that the inherent meaning is different.

[Klear]

Correct usage is when the characters have a problem that seems insurmountable and it gets solved by something that just comes out of the blue, something the viewer/reader couldn't have expected.

And no, deus ex machina doesn't have to solve the whole plot or subplot.

I don't consider the arrow and potion to be deus ex machina, but YMMV (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YMMV?from=Main.YourMileageMayVary). I can see why people are calling it such.

[Holy_Knight]

Correct usage is when the characters have a problem that seems insurmountable and it gets solved by something that just comes out of the blue, something the viewer/reader couldn't have expected.

And no, deus ex machina doesn't have to solve the whole plot or subplot.

I don't consider the arrow and potion to be deus ex machina, but YMMV (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YMMV?from=Main.YourMileageMayVary). I can see why people are calling it such.

See, this is the main problem with what you're saying. Trying to base it on the viewer's expectations makes every surprise or plot twist a "deus ex machina"--and as people have been pointing out, that's simply not correct. There's a big difference between something unexpected happening, and something happening which truly doesn't fit organically with the plot.

Thog getting hit by a meteor would have been a deus ex machina. Roy finding a crossbow bolt to use as a weapon, in an area where crossbows had recently been fired, is not. An elven war band suddenly attacking the arena and throwing Roy a potion would have been a deus ex machina. Ian (a character who has an established, if brief, relationship to Roy, and who we already know receives smuggled supplies from outside) giving him a potion is not. No one expected any of these to happen, but the ones that did flow naturally from how the plot has been progressing and what we know of the characters. That's why, unlike the hypothetical events I mentioned (or a myriad of others) they are not examples of deus ex machina. Being surprised by what happens does not mean that it's the result of fiat.

[UtimaII]

It's just an issue of webcomic versus book. Online, it has been almost 4 months ("not too long ago"?) since we last saw the bolts (#784 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0784.html) went up on 3/28). In print form, it would be like 10~30 minutes. IIRC, Rich has said he writes with both the online and print version in mind (hence the "deleted scenes" in DStP). This is probably just a case of leaning more towards the latter.

EDIT: Another thing to take into account is that a lot of people seem to regard Gannji and Enor as one-off side-characters, and probably stopped thinking about them the moment the Linear Guild was revealed.

No. Even in the print version, the bolt should be explained. It is unreasonable to assume that the readers would remember that bolts were fired into the arena. As such, it appears to the reader that the bolt came completly out of nowhere. It is jarring and takes the reader out of the narrative.

This is the same reason that I'm not upset at Ian's sudden potion reveal. He clearly explained his reason for having it. It doesn't even matter if the reader remembers that Ian is a rogue or not. Since he said that "I've been hiding it for just such a day" that is explanation enough.

[Zeful]

Correct usage is when the characters have a problem that seems insurmountable and it gets solved by something that just comes out of the blue, something the viewer/reader couldn't have expected.

I am very rarely surprised due to being an obsessive reader for almost 19 years, and a writer for 16 years (I'm 22); by your definition almost nothing is a Deus Ex Machina, because I, the reader, anticipated it.

That's a simple method to highlight why your definition is poor. I've been reading and writing for so long that I'm more interested in how something will play out rather than wondering if it will.

[Chance Gardener]

So, am I the only one who thought the Giant's post about the bolt was a humorous bit of self-deprecation wherein he was admitting that Roy pulled the bolt out of thin air due to there being no obvious foreshadowing (other than the Gannji/Enor fight strips from way back when - and let's be honest, 10 to 30 minutes in comic time is like months in RL) and he was simply posting to acknowledge in a manner that I felt indicated his appreciation for and approval of his rabidly attentive fan base?

And that he had a side bet that it would head off pages and pages of the God Machine Bolt of Salvation?



...which he totally lost.

[Porthos]

No. Even in the print version, the bolt should be explained. It is unreasonable to assume that the readers would remember that bolts were fired into the arena. As such, it appears to the reader that the bolt came completly out of nowhere. It is jarring and takes the reader out of the narrative.

Some readers. Perhaps even few readers. But clearly not all readers.

This reader certainly wasn't taken out of the narrative. :smallsmile:

[berrew]

No. Even in the print version, the bolt should be explained. It is unreasonable to assume that the readers would remember that bolts were fired into the arena. As such, it appears to the reader that the bolt came completly out of nowhere. It is jarring and takes the reader out of the narrative.

This is the same reason that I'm not upset at Ian's sudden potion reveal. He clearly explained his reason for having it. It doesn't even matter if the reader remembers that Ian is a rogue or not. Since he said that "I've been hiding it for just such a day" that is explanation enough.So the only way that it can be revealed is via a character explicitly, through dialogue, setting up the circumstance? One can't just follow the plot and make the connect between "a lot of guys fired crossbows into the pit" and "There are crossbow bolts left in the pit" because it wasn't in a text bubble or meticulously drawn into the arena scenes?

Personally, I had no problem remembering it, though as live strip readers I grant you it had been months since the Allosaurus had appeared for us. I think emphasizing the trivial logical connection will be unneeded, especially since for anyone reading these strips sequentially it will only have been 14 pages. Admittedly, in a printed medium one can easily add in the prepositional phrase "that had missed the Allosaur", but I'm unconvinced that Rich needed to leave visual impressions of Chekhov guns lying around the arena for the last 10 strips just so that the reader absolutely, positively has no problem connecting the dots.

[Whiffet]

No. Even in the print version, the bolt should be explained. It is unreasonable to assume that the readers would remember that bolts were fired into the arena. As such, it appears to the reader that the bolt came completly out of nowhere. It is jarring and takes the reader out of the narrative.

This is the same reason that I'm not upset at Ian's sudden potion reveal. He clearly explained his reason for having it. It doesn't even matter if the reader remembers that Ian is a rogue or not. Since he said that "I've been hiding it for just such a day" that is explanation enough.

But... I remembered bolts had been fired into the arena. I saw the comic and briefly thought, "Oh, why didn't I think about those when I was wondering what would happen next?" but I didn't get taken out of the narrative. If Roy or another character had explicitly pointed out that those things were lying around, that would have taken me out of the narrative because it would break the flow of the comic and added exposition where none was needed.

I thought the bolt was a reasonable use of a pre-existing element while still being unexpected; a difficult task in a webcomic where people have time to analyze and speculate before seeing what happens.

[LtNOWIS]

To take this in a different direction, the spectators had to have seen Roy take the potion from Ian, which is pretty much cheating. Won't a lot of fans be unhappy if their favorite gladiator gets killed in such an unfair manner? That could have negative consequences for Roy and Ian down the road.

[Khal]

To take this in a different direction, the spectators had to have seen Roy take the potion from Ian, which is pretty much cheating. Won't a lot of fans be unhappy if their favorite gladiator gets killed in such an unfair manner? That could have negative consequences for Roy and Ian down the road.

It's a gladiatorial fight. Fairness got beat to death years ago.

[The Giant]

I apologize in advance to Mr. Burlew. I by nature do not like to criticize professional authors (especially ones with a devoted fanbase such as this), but I feel that this has to be said.

If you knew that people would ask about the bolt and did not like the fact that they would (as evident in the tone of your post), then you should have explained the bolt's appearance in the strip. I actually stopped reading the strip to look at previous posts to see if the bolt had a foreshadowing appearance somewhere. After a while, I gave up and figured that you would tell us in the forums; which you did. But the point is, I shouldn't have had to ask, and you shouldn't have had to tell us. A good place to explain would have been the third panel. As Roy was running away, he could have said something like this: "Gee, glad they didn't clear away the bolts after the Allosaurus attack." That line would not have disrupted the pace of the strip, it would have immediatly explained the bolt's sudden appearance, and most importantly, it would not have forced us (the reader) to ask about the bolt.

Again, I apologize to you, Mr. Burlew. I have no idea what you have planned with the story, much less how you run your creative process. You are a superior storyteller that I could never hope be. But that was such a rookie mistake.

Do you know what the single most common complaint about my comic is? The one that I hear day in and day out from people who otherwise appreciate it?

"It's too wordy."

Everyone complains all of the time about how every panel is filled with word balloons and all my characters tell and don't show. Professional reviewers, fans, everyone. Most of the time, the extra words serve either to explain what is going on or tell a joke, and I'm worried that if I cut words-per-strip, the strips would be either less funny or more difficult to understand.

And yet, for this sequence between Roy and Thog, I tried anyway. I tried to drop the words, to make it more visual, more exciting, more show-not-tell. So of course, now people are complaining that I didn't have Roy talk to himself to explain what he was doing as he was doing it. :smallsigh:

A rookie mistake? No, this was a "mistake" I could only have made because I listened to years of criticism. It's a "mistake" that I made because I listened to the part of me that wants to think the best of my readers and their ability to draw conclusions from visual images. If I knew in advance that people were going to jump on it and complain, it's because I have years of experience with people complaining about everything, especially anything new or different. Ultimately, I would prefer to err on the side of NOT pandering to the complainers, which is why I went ahead with the panel the way it is.

So maybe it wasn't as successful as I would have liked, I'll grant that. But I would rather fail in the process of trying to stretch my abilities just a little than succeed by doing the same thing over and over and over again.

But if nothing else, this conversation has solidified in my mind that I do need to stop having characters narrate their every action, because I'm inadvertently training my readers to expect the dialogue to explain everything. Having Roy say, "Gosh, I sure am glad all these crossbow bolts were still lying about from the dinosaur attack!" would have been what I always do, and honestly, it's ridiculous and unnecessary. I shouldn't need to have characters announce the provenance of every object they're holding while in the middle of a life or death fight. If a reader can't figure it out, then oh well, that reader gets to be confused for one panel. It's not the end of the world, and the overall experience will be better for those readers who can put two and two together.

And maybe, just maybe, I can get the strip to be a little less wordy after all.

(I'm sorry to go on a rant about this, but it really is difficult when I get criticized for something I deliberately did to address the most common criticism. I know that most of the readers have reacted positively to the strip and this isn't directed at any of them.)

[The Giant]

Also, I need to refer this thread to the moderators, as there has been some crossing of the "personal insult" line on both sides of the discussion. Expect scrubbings and/or warnings.

[Esprit15]

I personally didn't have a problem with it. I liked having to flash back to a few weeks back to think "Where did he get a crossbow bolt from?" I like the wordy comics (to a point), but the ones that can convey what is going on with little to no words are just as good, and sometimes better. You've been doing just fine.

[pdellorto]

So maybe it wasn't as successful as I would have liked, I'll grant that.


No, dude, it was awesome. This strip does the whole "show not tell" thing really well, and I enjoyed it a lot.

It's cool strips like this (and goofy jokes about HP) that keep me coming back to read the comic.

[Gift Jeraff]

Not to sound like a sycophant that just agrees with anything and everything the author says, but I gotta say, choosing potential reader confusion over potentially unnecessary dialogue which breaks the flow of action has one major pro: it's only temporary. Once you figure out where the bolt comes from--be it from a forum post, reading the archives, or what have you--the problem should be gone from all future readings. However, if you find the dialogue awkward, that problem will be there every time you read it.

[Demonic1000]

If a reader can't figure it out, then oh well, that reader gets to be confused for one panel. It's not the end of the world, and the overall experience will be better for those readers who can put two and two together.


I, for one, enjoy being mentally stimulated by the witty remarks, the jokes, and thinking about the comic. It's what my D&D group likes to discuss and talk about before our meets.

From my D&D group: Ser Burlew, you're doing it right. :smallsmile:

[Ekul]

Having made a (lower quality, now defunct) web-comic before, I know where Mr. Burlew is coming from in the words vs action. For example, I cringed at the line about the tequila and the worm- way over explained. I don't blame him for this though, because part of the reason it made me cringe were the multitude of times I made the same mistake. In this case, it would be absolutely cringe-worthy to have Roy say or think "Oh, look, a convenient bolt" or something. Comics are a delicate medium. Frankly, in most of the parts where he explains the actions, in my opinion, it's not cringe-worthy at all. In a decision between having your viewers scratch their heads or cringe, I'd take the confusion option.

[moonbiter]

You know, even I remembered that the guard shot about 100 bolts into the arena, and I'm barely paying attention. Just throwing that out there.

[Kojiro]

Really, I got this thing when I saw it; "Huh, he stabbed him with a- Oh, right, when they shot the lizards." Even if I didn't get it, though, I don't think an "I'm so lucky they didn't etc etc." comment would have helped. It'd be awkward and unnecessary, and wouldn't flow at all. Characters narrating everything they do is a bit ridiculous, really, and I am amazed that people are basically asking for that.

I do think that the comic is too wordy at times, or, rather, overly wordy for its goals at the time (I'll admit that, back in the trial plot, I didn't read the entirety of the closing arguments, although the length of those was setup for the punchline), and attempts at brevity are not bad. There may be a few moments that could have used more words as well, although I can't think of any off of the top of my head (and actually can't really think of any of the reverse beyond the aforementioned trial scene, which was deliberate). This, though, was not one of those times; that even most of the people complaining about the thing realized what it was after a bit of thought is evidence of this. "I didn't realize what it was immediately" is not a good reason for there to be a flow-breaking statement; I'm pretty sure Thog and other people in-comic were confused by it too.

[Ya Ta Hey!]

I disagree with the arrow being such a flagrant continuity problem, and especially not a rookie mistake. Looks more like a concession to practicality.

If it were a book or a movie, the arrow out of "nowhere" might be a little distasteful, but it was probably the right decision here. Comic art is one big balancing act and, sure, a reminder about the arrows would have been grand, but omitting it seems like the least of all the possible pitfalls. These things come with the territory.

There could have been a transition panel of Roy spotting and fumbling for a nearby arrow, and then a worm's eye shot of The Incredible Thulk looming over head (lens flare!), balancing the massive boulder that would end Roy's life. In my mind's eye, that looks pretty cool.

The problem is that means two fewer panels for when Roy spots something in the sky, wheels turning in his head as he slows to a stop. That was a transition that really did need a couple panels of staring to convey, and would have been hurt by being rushed. Try to picture panel 3 and then going to panel 7. Its just feels wrong.

You could have your cake and eat it too by giving both of those scenes their transition panels, but then you have an extra two. That may sound like no big deal, but you can't just tack those extras on to the end like you can with a paragraph of words. Comic pages really want to be square, with no orphan panels, or else they generally look terrible. To make those two extra panels fit in the square, you have to re-layout the entire page ; your options are to shrink every thing else and sacrifice readability, or you stick in some filler panels so that you have a new, complete row...which also hurts the flow in its own way, and can be a very slippery slope.

In the end, I think it makes more sense to just give Roy an arrow while the reader isn't looking. The more I put myself in the author's shoes, the more I really think that the transition panels were well spent on Roy spotting something in the sky, midstride, and changing plans. That was a more important and far-reaching fact than the arrow.

[BlackZaitan]

I'll back Kojiro up about the bolt. Simple as that

And about the healing potion, I think if I were in Ians place, having trouble trusting and so on, I would keep my mouth shut about having such a potion. and don't ramble on it to the first and best adventures who get thrown in the same jail/pit/WHATEVER as me.
I see no reason why this potion haven't been mention before and Ian as a masterthief should be able to get atleast such a potion.

And now to the part i love most

AWESOME STRIP! I love this epic battle, the total carnage. the battle all over the place (even without really being a real battle (more of alot of 1v1 encounters) love the bolt thing when I saw it! it reminded me of Gladiator like some others in this thread :)
Keep on rocking! Do not let it slow down yet!

[Porthos]

To take this in a different direction, the spectators had to have seen Roy take the potion from Ian, which is pretty much cheating. Won't a lot of fans be unhappy if their favorite gladiator gets killed in such an unfair manner?

Four words: Broken Glass In Eye.

The crowd is going to go nuts at that, even if Roy fudged things a bit to get the actual glass. :smallwink:

[semi]

As even a cursory glance of the internet will show, people will argue about anything. :smallwink:

i cannot agree more and just to clarify where I stand in all this mess, I don't think there was an actual mistake (rookie, messiah, DEFCON2, etc. level) I'm just saying that if there was a 2nd edition that perhaps a little scribble on the ground or extra word a few strips previously woulda been my only criticism.

And as far as my criticism goes, I'm not saying the strip was terrible or even 'average' but only that it coulda been a tiny bit better and then (maybe, maybe not?) alleviated some of the statements that have been made so far.

[TheExpat]

There could have been a transition panel of Roy spotting and fumbling for a nearby arrow, and then a worm's eye shot of The Incredible Thulk looming over head (lens flare!), balancing the massive boulder that would end Roy's life. In my mind's eye, that looks pretty cool.

I'm with you; that would've been cool. But I also like that the projectile came seemingly out of nowhere, just when things were starting to look hopeless. That is to say, I like that we couldn't see it until it was already in Roy's hand/Thog's leg. Ouch.

[TheExpat]

gotta say, really nice weapon improvisation

I'm not the first to say it, but every day should be improvised weapon day (http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2009/01/improvised-weapons-best-discussion-ever.html)!

[Absol197]

Another thing about the crossbow bolt is, after they were all fired, a giant frikkin' dinosaur was stomping around in the arena, kicking up a lot of sand and pounding the bolts into the ground. It makes sense (to me at least) that they would be buried a little so that they can't be easily seen above the sand, but someone reaching around (like we can se Roy doing the frame before the bolt shows up) eouldn't have a hard time feeling them.

[Ramien]

To take this in a different direction, the spectators had to have seen Roy take the potion from Ian, which is pretty much cheating. Won't a lot of fans be unhappy if their favorite gladiator gets killed in such an unfair manner? That could have negative consequences for Roy and Ian down the road.

They only thing more thrilling than watching your favorite gladiator win is watching your favorite gladiator go down fighting - not a purposeful setup with no chance of winning, but something that keeps you on the edge of your seat until the very last attack. The crowd will eat this up with a spoon and come back for more.

[jere7my]

Really, I got this thing when I saw it; "Huh, he stabbed him with a- Oh, right, when they shot the lizards."

And if that wasn't enough, in the very next panel we see guards holding crossbows, as a memory prompt. "Oh, right — the guards have crossbows. They were shooting them recently."

If you choose not to write down to your readers, some readers will get confused. QED. There is nothing at all wrong with that — it's a mark of quality storytelling. Expecting everything to be clear to everyone on first reading every time results in lowest-common-denominator writing. If you do find yourself confused, don't immediately call it a flaw or a "rookie mistake" — think for a minute, and see if you can connect the dots for yourself. Your brain will thank you for the exercise.

[legomaster00156]

Loved this strip. Go, Roy! Make use of those d10 Hit Dice! :D

[Esprit15]

Another thing about the crossbow bolt is, after they were all fired, a giant frikkin' dinosaur was stomping around in the arena, kicking up a lot of sand and pounding the bolts into the ground. It makes sense (to me at least) that they would be buried a little so that they can't be easily seen above the sand, but someone reaching around (like we can se Roy doing the frame before the bolt shows up) eouldn't have a hard time feeling them.
I figured even if they did clean them up they would have missed a few.

[fractal]

Remember, this is the same comic that displayed everything Haley said as cryptograms for hundreds of strips. There's a large amount of subtle detail here; if you can't figure out what's going on, there's a good chance you're just not trying hard enough. Some of us enjoy paying careful attention to the comic's history, and going back to check things if we don't remember details (although that certainly wasn't necessary for most of us to remember the relatively recent crossbow bolts). If you think that everything should be clearly spelled out, that would deprive us of some of our pleasure in the comic.

[Geech]

Also, to the people who think this is the dreaded DEM, once again, it's really not. Healing potions are not exactly in short supply in the OOTS world, and it's not absurd to think a master thief like Ian would have one stashed away somewhere. Now, if Ian had a greatsword hiding in his cage, that would be a stretch, and such accusations might be reasonable.

Not only is it perfectly reasonable that Ian might have a potion, I think it's also plausible that he could exit the cell again to obtain another great sword for Roy. That might not be as straightforward after they already broke out to unleash the Allosaurus, though.

[Snails]

The Giant writes much better rants than I do, too. <sigh> I have so far to go...

Personally, I would consider the bolt in the leg move as imperfectly executed, as in hindsight, it would have been possible to drop a visual hint of stuff on the ground in some earlier panel (most likely in a previous strip, like #796). But, no, such was hardly necessary -- an attentive reader is most likely to figure it out in a few tenths of a second.

I wholeheartedly agree Roy should not be explaining how he got that bolt. An excellent choice imperfectly executed is a better place to be than sticking with the same okay choice over and over again.

[Red XIV]

Not only is it perfectly reasonable that Ian might have a potion, I think it's also plausible that he could exit the cell again to obtain another great sword for Roy. That might not be as straightforward after they already broke out to unleash the Allosaurus, though.

A greatsword is quite a bit harder to conceal than a potion, though.

[Kibble Sage]

And if that wasn't enough, in the very next panel we see guards holding crossbows, as a memory prompt. "Oh, right — the guards have crossbows. They were shooting them recently."

If you choose not to write down to your readers, some readers will get confused. QED. There is nothing at all wrong with that — it's a mark of quality storytelling. Expecting everything to be clear to everyone on first reading every time results in lowest-common-denominator writing. If you do find yourself confused, don't immediately call it a flaw or a "rookie mistake" — think for a minute, and see if you can connect the dots for yourself. Your brain will thank you for the exercise.

Again, showing a few arrows lying around in previous frames, rather than having the clean arena surface that is actually shown, would be "lowest-common-denominator writing"? Really? Because I thought that, you know, if an object is going to be used, it should be shown to exist at some point.

This is kind of like if we didn't see Ian hand Roy the potion, and instead Roy just chugs a potion that appeared in his hand. Even if we knew that four months ago, Ian had the potion, just seeing Roy drinking it without any transfer of it in the comic would be jarring.

I guess we're just not exercising our brains enough, though, if we couldn't immediately figure out that Ian gave him the potion without seeing him do it. :smallsigh: Giving a visual chain of causality is just "writing down", and I'm clearly hopelessly stupid. Gotcha. Thanks for setting me straight.

[Geech]

A greatsword is quite a bit harder to conceal than a potion, though.

He doesn't really have to hide it anymore than he had to hide the allosaurus, though. He just has to go get one and pass it through the bars.

[jere7my]

Again, showing a few arrows lying around in previous frames, rather than having the clean arena surface that is actually shown, would be "lowest-common-denominator writing"? Really? Because I thought that, you know, if an object is going to be used, it should be shown to exist at some point.

The bolt was shown to exist. We saw a whole mess of them falling to the sand and stuck in the arena walls in 784. Showing them scattered around Roy's fallen body would have been Rich tipping his hand. For me, at least, it would have made Roy's eventual use of one predictable.

[Shatteredtower]

The bolt was shown to exist.

Yes. Oddly enough, I think the Giant covered this sort of thing a few years back in response to another similar criticism. Let me check my "signature".

Hmm. Not quite the same, no, but the last sentence still fits. The line must be drawn somewhere. The presence of the arrow was important to this scene, but its presence was already amply justified without needing additional reference, whether by dialogue, searching action, or showing it among dozens still strewn across the arena floor in the panels we've seen since the dinosaur attack.

The reason for the bolt's presence was shown. There was no need to keep showing it until it was needed again. I know I forgot about them after they were fired, right up until Roy used one. It's kind of like how I forgot that Roy's party lost their mounts way, way back, right up until Elan pointed it out.

Wait, no...it's like how Blackwing used to only appear when someone thought he might be relevant. V's fight with Xykon really drove that home. When he appeared, how many readers thought, Oh, I'd forgotten about him, rather than, I knew it? Some in both camps, I'm sure, but we've got the same situation here, even if the percentage spread between them might be different.

[Melee]

The arrow puzzled me for about 5 seconds, but the potion seemed perfectly reasonable. It's not that hard to hide something that small.

Unrelated to the discussion on minor details, I liked how the guards were puzzled in the background in panel 8. It gave me a smile.

[Killer Angel]

Go take a look at blooper sections for movies -- there are a lot of items that appear and disappear and then appear again, and pointing that out isn't usually taken to be a sign of stupidity there. It's just that the fans tend to notice continuity errors, even small ones, precisely because they do care about the story enough to examine it closely.

I agree. Only, bloopers are mistakes, while this is not an error. You could argue 'bout the lacking of other visible arrows in the sand, but that's about it.

[Rules Lawyer #1]

Awwww! Talky man hurt Thog! :smallfrown:

I'm a Thog fan, so Roy's comeback was a little irksome. In particular, after comic #796 panel 16 showing Roy's eyebrow line over eyes (signaling partial closure) and Roy's speech bubble pointer with a wave in it, I assumed that he was staggered. It turns out he was merely low on hp or faking the severity of his condition or something.

The arrow surprised me. I figured it out.
Yeah, it could've used a lantern hung on it… but whatever. I also concur with jere7my in that there was sufficient foreshadowing: don't tip the hand!

The potion did not require foreshadowing. It was perfectly reasonable. Charging for the potion? Master touch.

I agree with Melee about the confused guards. :smallcool:

I love how the wizard duel rises while the arena fight rages. This was my favorite part of the comic. The threads, they are a weaving…

[voiceofreason]

It's obvious that spent crossbow bolts are amongst the kind of trash that accumulates in the arena on showday. Just ... obvious. It's like if there's a brawl on the lawn at the US Open, someone's going to get themselves stabbed with a golf tee.

[Imaginos]

The arrow puzzled me for about 5 seconds, but the potion seemed perfectly reasonable. It's not that hard to hide something that small.

I almost expected a line about how he hid it (a la Christopher Walken's bit in Pulp Fiction).

[Capt Spanner]

But then there's no trope on TvTropes for my feelings! What could I complain about if I didn't have my deus ex machina!?! Just because TvTropes exists doesn't mean you need to use it. Wish Spod was here :(

You could try this one? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AssPull) (I disagree, but it may it sum up your feelings).

In this case, the name may be taken literally.


If a reader can't figure it out, then oh well, that reader gets to be confused for one panel. It's not the end of the world, and the overall experience will be better for those readers who can put two and two together.

I just want to add to this: just because you don't get something on the first reading, it doesn't mean you won't get it on the second reading.

I love that feeling, when I re-read something, when I make a connection I didn't before - perhaps "Hey, I forgot about the Allosaurus shooting. That must be where Roy got the crossbow bolt from" for some readers, or "Hang on...I remember that Drow from four books later where he's thrashing V" for others or ... well the list goes on and on.

It's things like this that make the comic re-readable (see also: Stuff You Never Noticed thread), not just readable.

I also much prefer having to put two and two together and feeling a little bit clever over being patronised with comments such as "Aha! A crossbow bolt leftover from the Allosaurus attack! This one must have missed because it's relatively undamaged and therefore fully capable of piercing the flesh of a half-orc. I sure hope I roll a critical to do damage with this improvised weapon"* appearing in the comic.


*Although V might be able to get away with it. IIRC that was their original role in the plot.

[Antonok]

It's like if there's a brawl on the lawn at the US Open, someone's going to get themselves stabbed with a golf tee.

This made me lol, as I can actually see it happening. Would you care if I sig'd this?

On topic: I've been expecting an arrow to be used ever since Roy was disarmed and thogs axe got sundered. IMO, it had more then enough foreshadowing.

The potion I can also see easily happening. I mean, Ian and Belkar escaped out of they're cell and released the Allosaur. How hard could it really be to smuggle in and hide a potion? Especially when we know Ian has been having stuff smuggled in anyway.

[Adeptus]

The improvisation with the crossbow bolt works just like in real games. A clever player remembers the dino-attack and asks if there are any bolts lying around. The GM hasn't thought about it, but agrees that there definitely should be.

Exactly as told in the comic. The floor isn't littered in bolts earlier since the GM didn't explicitly state they are there.

[rbetieh]

I dont get what the big deal is. The Giant doesnt need to draw Thogs broken axe on the ground for me to know its there. And its reasonable that if there is 1 broken weapon on the ground, there would be more. Heck, in a real gladiatorial arena, they had hidden doors with weapons caches just so gladiators could switch it up mid combat. No one seems to mind when pro wrestlers pull metal poles from under the ring. Its just a question of getting into the scene.

Now the potion is reasonable too, but it opens up so many possibilities for plot twists. I mean, Ian refused to leave the jail when he had the chance (comes off as stubborn, but he is too smart to refuse freedom if he couldnt get out on his own), he has access to things that others can't get (we dont know how he is smuggling these items), and he waits until he is sure Roy is out to kill Thog before helping (yes, resources are limited I admit, but considering this is his daughters close ally and personal meat shield, I would think he would help anyways). There is a chance in my estimation that Ian is actually Tarquins agent, even after releasing the allosaurus. It seems unreasonable that he would have lasted that long in prison given that the penal code is so severe that there ought to be a shortage of prisoners from time to time, especially if combat is held every weekend, especially with Thog rampaging in prison. And considering the level of preparedness of Tarquin, it is also reasonable that he have planted someone in the prison to ferret out larger threats to his rule or even to create an uprising when it comes time to turn over the empire again. Besides, there is no way all of the prisoners from the last coup wouldnt have been released when the Empress took over, since its standard practice to offer those people release in order to fight off the old regime.

And now I have oficially overthought this.:smallsmile:

[sims796]

The bolt was shown to exist. We saw a whole mess of them falling to the sand and stuck in the arena walls in 784. Showing them scattered around Roy's fallen body would have been Rich tipping his hand. For me, at least, it would have made Roy's eventual use of one predictable.

But then they were shown not to exist; after all, they were a forgotten fact throughout the rest of the fight, and completely absent in the arena. The fact that people didn't remember it really isn't that jarring.


I agree. Only, bloopers are mistakes, while this is not an error. You could argue 'bout the lacking of other visible arrows in the sand, but that's about it.

This, pretty much. It really isn't all that big, but it is a criticism, which apparently isn't allowed. Even the people who has a problem with the bolt are saying that it isn't all to big an issue, but everyone else (almost everyone else, let's be fair), are acting like this minor thing doesn't exist because they love the comic.

[Scrynor]

The pure action strips have been working great. I haven't been this excited and felt this much build up since the soul splice. Don't change what you're doing Giant. Heavy-handedness is the death of good story-telling. Just look at movies.

I agree with everyone who made a "tipping your hand" comment. If he had drawn arrows lying around we all would have been like, grab an arrow grab an arrow grab an arrow!

I think all that could be added without hurting the surprise or the flow or the feel or the panel management would be zooming out a little more in panel 1 and showing a little V sticking out out of the sand a bit away from where Roy's arm enters it. Just enough so that on the panel before the strike you think... what is tha...OH an ARROW! (and indication that it was buried to quiet the draw arrows strewn abou calls).

That's a pretty tiny difference in what has been a giant epic battle with multiple fights in multiple locations. It's been pretty darn masterful and satisfying overall.

Also, I love the comment someone made about it being like real DnD. I'm totally going to start rereading strips with more of a DMs eye instead of just following the story. "Are there arrows?" "Uh... I guess". So true!

[pendell]

Do you know what the single most common complaint about my comic is? The one that I hear day in and day out from people who otherwise appreciate it?

"It's too wordy."

Everyone complains all of the time about how every panel is filled with word balloons and all my characters tell and don't show. Professional reviewers, fans, everyone. Most of the time, the extra words serve either to explain what is going on or tell a joke, and I'm worried that if I cut words-per-strip, the strips would be either less funny or more difficult to understand.

And yet, for this sequence between Roy and Thog, I tried anyway. I tried to drop the words, to make it more visual, more exciting, more show-not-tell. So of course, now people are complaining that I didn't have Roy talk to himself to explain what he was doing as he was doing it. :smallsigh:

A rookie mistake? No, this was a "mistake" I could only have made because I listened to years of criticism. It's a "mistake" that I made because I listened to the part of me that wants to think the best of my readers and their ability to draw conclusions from visual images. If I knew in advance that people were going to jump on it and complain, it's because I have years of experience with people complaining about everything, especially anything new or different. Ultimately, I would prefer to err on the side of NOT pandering to the complainers, which is why I went ahead with the panel the way it is.

So maybe it wasn't as successful as I would have liked, I'll grant that. But I would rather fail in the process of trying to stretch my abilities just a little than succeed by doing the same thing over and over and over again.

But if nothing else, this conversation has solidified in my mind that I do need to stop having characters narrate their every action, because I'm inadvertently training my readers to expect the dialogue to explain everything. Having Roy say, "Gosh, I sure am glad all these crossbow bolts were still lying about from the dinosaur attack!" would have been what I always do, and honestly, it's ridiculous and unnecessary. I shouldn't need to have characters announce the provenance of every object they're holding while in the middle of a life or death fight. If a reader can't figure it out, then oh well, that reader gets to be confused for one panel. It's not the end of the world, and the overall experience will be better for those readers who can put two and two together.

And maybe, just maybe, I can get the strip to be a little less wordy after all.

(I'm sorry to go on a rant about this, but it really is difficult when I get criticized for something I deliberately did to address the most common criticism. I know that most of the readers have reacted positively to the strip and this isn't directed at any of them.)

At the risk of sounding like a horrible suckup, I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Burlew here.

Way I see it, if *we the audience* saw the crossbow bolt beforehand, then *Thog* would have seen it beforehand also. Roy did a very intelligent thing, palming a bit of arena debris, feigning incapacitation, then stabbing thog with it. It was perfect concept and execution, and I -- who am EXTREMELY over-analytical (I'm the guy who enlarged the comic panel in 797 to see if there were Xs in Roy's eyes) -- had no argument or even a second's hesitation as to where Roy found the bolt. If it hadn't been a crossbow bolt, it would have been some sort of other improvised weapon left over from multiple arena combats.

So I agree with the Giant's professional critics. Show, don't tell. If a reader is confused, there is plenty of time to explain the matter off-panel, either here in the forums or in commentary in the eventual book. I think the folks who made the movie "Wall-e" had the right idea: Less dialogue is more.

ETA: For the love of the 12 gods, this is an arena fight. ANY dialogue is out of place. Maybe an occasional short sentence or two, but word balloons are out of place. Roy and Thog are supposed to be killing each other, not engaging in dueling soliloquies.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[jidasfire]

This, pretty much. It really isn't all that big, but it is a criticism, which apparently isn't allowed. Even the people who has a problem with the bolt are saying that it isn't all to big an issue, but everyone else (almost everyone else, let's be fair), are acting like this minor thing doesn't exist because they love the comic.

Whereas you are derailing the entire thread over this "minor thing." Look, criticism is fine, you don't have to like everything in the comic to be a fan, but what do you expect here? An apology from Mr. Burlew? A redrafting of the scene? A panel-by-panel discussion of how the comic would be better from here on out if the arrow was foreshadowed or didn't appear? Even if the arrow was a problem at all, which I maintain it is not, that ain't gonna happen.

You (and those who agree with you) have said your piece (or peace, I'm never sure about that), and I'll go so far as to say I respect your opinion even if I don't agree with it. Now please, let it go.

Hey, so remember how the comic is getting all exciting and Roy's making a comeback and Belkar's gonna go slaughter a cat-killing kobold in a minute? Let's talk about that.

[SamBurke]

Strip 800 keeps on looking up.

[sims796]

Whereas you are derailing the entire thread over this "minor thing." Look, criticism is fine, you don't have to like everything in the comic to be a fan, but what do you expect here? An apology from Mr. Burlew? A redrafting of the scene? A panel-by-panel discussion of how the comic would be better from here on out if the arrow was foreshadowed or didn't appear? Even if the arrow was a problem at all, which I maintain it is not, that ain't gonna happen.

You (and those who agree with you) have said your piece (or peace, I'm never sure about that), and I'll go so far as to say I respect your opinion even if I don't agree with it. Now please, let it go.

Hey, so remember how the comic is getting all exciting and Roy's making a comeback and Belkar's gonna go slaughter a cat-killing kobold in a minute? Let's talk about that.

If that's how you felt, then maybe you should address the other side of this arguement as well? After all, there are two parts of a debate, and both sides are keeping it going strong. The thread wasn't "derailed" by my posts, or any of the critics; in fact, everything done here was done by the rules (and was going on before and after you quoted my post). We were discussing, heck, debating about something from comic 798.

You may not like how the topic at hand is about, but all you can do is change it. Try to change it in they way you have, however, will undoubtebly keep things going in it's current direction.

[Mutant Sheep]

At the risk of sounding like a horrible suckup, I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Burlew here.

Way I see it, if *we the audience* saw the crossbow bolt beforehand, then *Thog* would have seen it beforehand also. Roy did a very intelligent thing, palming a bit of arena debris, feigning incapacitation, then stabbing thog with it. It was perfect concept and execution, and I -- who am EXTREMELY over-analytical (I'm the guy who enlarged the comic panel in 797 to see if there were Xs in Roy's eyes) -- had no argument or even a second's hesitation as to where Roy found the bolt. If it hadn't been a crossbow bolt, it would have been some sort of other improvised weapon left over from multiple arena combats.

So I agree with the Giant's professional critics. Show, don't tell. If a reader is confused, there is plenty of time to explain the matter off-panel, either here in the forums or in commentary in the eventual book. I think the folks who made the movie "Wall-e" had the right idea: Less dialogue is more.

ETA: For the love of the 12 gods, this is an arena fight. ANY dialogue is out of place. Maybe an occasional short sentence or two, but word balloons are out of place. Roy and Thog are supposed to be killing each other, not engaging in dueling soliloquies.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

You horrible suck up! They were talking about opposites a few strips ago! How dare you say that Roy going " I am so glad that crossbow bolt was there" to nobody at all when hes running from Thog and panting like a asthmatic platapus is out of place! :smalltongue: I agree with the Giant too.

[sims796]

You horrible suck up! They were talking about opposites a few strips ago! How dare you say that Roy going " I am so glad that crossbow bolt was there" to nobody at all when hes running from Thog and panting like a asthmatic platapus is out of place! :tongue: I agree with the Giant too.

Well, I tend to work under a certain philosophy. A saying, if you will. WWTD?

[Ramien]

Well, I tend to work under a certain philosophy. A saying, if you will. WWTD?

Does the T stand for Thog, Thor, Tiamat, or Tarquin?

[sims796]

Does the T stand for Thog, Thor, Tiamat, or Tarquin?

Ha! I was hoping someone would catch on! I was thinking Thog, but Tarquin is a good guess.

[Snowfall]

I keep thinking that establishing credibility isn't the same as foreshadowing, but we keep using that word.

On another note, I like the *huff* *huff* huff*s. Though if panel 12 is the judge, it's showing Roy's running hard rather than out of breath.

Edit: Roy's still Roy!

[sims796]

On an unrelated note, what kind of potion would that be? Just a healing one?

[Mutant Sheep]

On an unrelated note, what kind of potion would that be? Just a healing one?

A plot related one.:smalltongue:

[sims796]

A plot related one.:smalltongue:

What has just transpired...I can see it.:smalleek:

But I like the way Ian is shaping up. It seems like he's the kind of guy who's truly a good guy, just...roguish, I guess? Like how Haley would end up if not for Elan, or another sort of conscience.