Fireball vs Orb of Fire: Which is better?

[Tokuhara]

I had a debate with a fellow player last night over the following situation:

I, a 12th level Human Wizard in a 3.P game, was facing a Frost Wurm and 3 frost giants. I used orb of fire on the wurm, having Maximized (for free using the 3/day free metamagic) and empowered it. My buddy said that fireball would have been a better option, since it is an auto-hit, but has a chance to do half damage. I told him that I chose OoF because there was a lack of a save for damage, and all I'd have to roll was a ranged touch (against the Frost Wurm's pitiful touch AC).

So, my question is: Which is the better spell, considering the situation?

[NeoSeraphi]

Orb of Fire is clearly the better choice, as it's SR No, Fortitude save for a status effect, but full damage otherwise, and only requires a ranged touch attack to hit. Fireball is a good spell, as it doesn't require an attack roll and hits multiple targets, as well as being a lower level spell, but for dealing with a single purple worm? You definitely made the right choice.

[Tyndmyr]

That's correct.

If it's a mob of hobgoblins, fireball the lot. If it's single target...orb.

[Vandicus]

For a single target, Orb of Fire all the way, the attack roll is a way better option than save for half. Fireball is better in many other situations though.

*EDIT

I just reread it and noticed the three Frost Giants. I revise my opinion to say that in general I believe fireball would've been more useful, though spacing, damage taken, etc. might make OoF better.

[Saph]

Fireball is longer ranged, lower level, and hits multiple targets, but allows SR.

Orb of Fire is shorter ranged, higher level, and hits only a single target, but it's SR: No and has a nice secondary effect. It also has a higher damage cap.

So generally you use Fireball for killing larger weaker groups that are far away and Orb of Fire for killing single tough enemies that are close.

In the situation you describe, it depends on how many you can get in the blast radius of the Fireball. If you can hit multiple targets, then Fireball is better; if you can only hit one, go with Orb of Fire.

[mootoall]

In this situation? Definitely the Orb. Fireball is only superior when dealing with multiple targets. Hitting Touch AC against a brute is trivial, and the save is for an *additional* effect, instead to make sure your spell works at maximum damage potential.

[danzibr]

Orb of Fire is clearly the better choice, as it's SR No, Fortitude save for a status effect, but full damage otherwise, and only requires a ranged touch attack to hit. Fireball is a good spell, as it doesn't require an attack roll and hits multiple targets, as well as being a lower level spell, but for dealing with a single purple worm? You definitely made the right choice.
Yeah, I'm not adding much to the conversation, but this pretty much covers it. Fireball's better in crowds (well, in certain situations).

[Seffbasilisk]

He's not talking about facing a single worm. There were three frost giants as well, as far as OP said.

I'd normally say Fireball, but if the Orb had a chance to one-shot or down to Worm, that was the better option, because the Fireball likely wouldn't drop any of them.

If the fireball would have dropped the 'minions' the Frost Giants, and damaged the Worm? That'd be superior.

All in all, it's better to remove one from combat than to damage a wide range, unless the other players also are dropping fire AoEs (Or can do enough damage to mop up the others before they get to go.)

[Tokuhara]

The giants were clustered together, 5ft from each other, but the wurm was attacking the party cleric (who acts like a band-aid dispenser). I could have hit all of the giants, but the cleric would have gotten pasted. I chose to blast the wurm to draw the wurm into the "loving" arms of our fighter (the player is using Hound Archon as his race & class), which worked surprisingly well, it lost half it's HP, and our fighter killed it with a "triple crit" (house rule. If you confirm a critical, you roll a third time. If you confirm with that, it's an Instant-Kill). The giants panicked and charged the Archon, only to have the cleric Holy Flame them into oblivion

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, then there you go. I don't see why your friend was upset. If you're doing something brilliant that works, no one should complain. They should say "Thank you for saving the cleric's life, almighty wizard".

[Tokuhara]

Well, then there you go. I don't see why your friend was upset. If you're doing something brilliant that works, no one should complain. They should say "Thank you for saving the cleric's life, almighty wizard".

Well, the party rogue brought it up, since he told me that with what he suggested, I could have caused "greater damage" by killing the giants and possibly hurting the wurm (I have Enlarge & widen) if I put it on. However, I chose to wound the higher HP target over pasting "chumps"

[Vandicus]

Well, the party rogue brought it up, since he told me that with what he suggested, I could have caused "greater damage" by killing the giants and possibly hurting the wurm (I have Enlarge & widen) if I put it on. However, I chose to wound the higher HP target over pasting "chumps"

It sounds like your choice was the more sound one. D&D isn't a race to dps. Saving that party member, or even just removing the off chance that he'd die is far better than the handful of extra damage the AoE probably would've done.

[Seffbasilisk]

This is why, I try to keep as much of my sheet a secret as possible. People saying that you could do it better? Bugger off.


...admittedly, the character I'm playing now has the entire party under mind-control, except for the psion who he's meeting for the first time next session. (It's cool. I've got Dominate Person now.)

[Tyndmyr]

Well, the party rogue brought it up, since he told me that with what he suggested, I could have caused "greater damage" by killing the giants and possibly hurting the wurm (I have Enlarge & widen) if I put it on. However, I chose to wound the higher HP target over pasting "chumps"

That's probably true...but saving lives takes priority over most damage.

I tend to love making clustered enemies pay, but sometimes other things matter more.

[Worira]

Well, strictly speaking, the wurm would have died regardless of the damage, since it got instakilled. But what with not having magical precognition powers, I'm not sure how relevant that is.

[Alabenson]

Well, the party rogue brought it up, since he told me that with what he suggested, I could have caused "greater damage" by killing the giants and possibly hurting the wurm (I have Enlarge & widen) if I put it on. However, I chose to wound the higher HP target over pasting "chumps"

Under the circumstances, I'd say you made the tactically sound choice, in that dropping the wurm and saving the party member trumped maximizing total damage dealt.
Fireball would only have the better choice if you were primarily concerned with maximizing total damage output and didn't have any significant targetting priorities.

[KillianHawkeye]

To put things in perspective a little better (assuming the monsters haven't been changed between 3.5 and Pathfinder), neither the Frost Worm nor the Frost Giants have SR, so that is a nonissue in this comparison. They both have terrible touch ACs and bad Reflex saves (the Worm's Reflex is a little better than the Giants').

Now, assuming the wizard also Maximized and Empowered his fireball spell, we're looking at a flat 60 damage plus 5d6 (average 17.5) or 77.5 damage. Of course, these creatures are vulnerable to fire, so increase that by 50% and the expected damage goes up to 116.25. That's not enough to outright kill any of the monsters, but it will take almost all of their hps.

On the other hand, the Giants are CR 9 while the Worm is CR 12, so taking out the Worm at the start would leave a pretty easy battle for the rest of the party to finish off. Or he could have brought the Giants down to single digit hit points and then the party could have ganged up on the Worm.

So what I'm saying here is that the two options were pretty close in value, and there's not really any "right" or "wrong" choice. Unless you could have done the Maximized Empowered Orb and a Quickened Fireball, but I don't think you'd be able to do that at level 12.

[Keld Denar]

On the other side, the Frost Worm only really has 1 attack, while the giants have 2 each. 4 attacks from 4 Frost Giants is 12d6+52 at +18 (+20 if they could charge), if they only move and make a single attack, more if they PA for a bit. Thats WAY more damage than the worm's 3d8+12 at +21 could put out without using Swallow Whole and several rounds to digest.

Honestly, I'd have considered the giants to be a higher threat than the worm, and given the opportunity to dust 4 giants vs 1 worm, probably woulda cooked the giants. As it stands, your huge blast on the worm was more or less negated by the fact that your Warblade buddy instagibed it, regardless of it's remaining HP, but there is no way you could have known he would do that before committing to your action.

[Tokuhara]

So vs singleton or if tactically more ambivalent, Orb is vastly superior. In AoE situation vs chumps, fireball is superior. Makes sense overall. I'm guessing the same works for all orb vs AoE debates, right?

[MrRigger]

Well, dropping a Maximized, Empowered Fireball on the Frost Giants probably would kill them (they don't have much in the way of Reflex saves and take extra damage from the Cold Subtype), but D&D is a cooperative game. Tough to cooperate when one of the PCs gets killed, especially when you can save them. I think the Maximized, Empowered Orb of Fire was probably the better call, hitting the Frost Worm for about 90 damage on average, before the +50% for the Cold Subtype, with the added benefit of drawing the Frost Worm's attention away from the ailing Cleric.

If you were able to lay down a Maximized, Empowered, Enlarged, Widened Fireball to get all the monsters, and do about 112 damage to each (which I would say would be enough to get the attention of the Frost Worm away from the Cleric), that would probably be the best, but there's only so much metamagic you can stack on the fly if you aren't built for it.

MrRigger

[Tokuhara]

Well, dropping a Maximized, Empowered Fireball on the Frost Giants probably would kill them (they don't have much in the way of Reflex saves and take extra damage from the Cold Subtype), but D&D is a cooperative game. Tough to cooperate when one of the PCs gets killed, especially when you can save them. I think the Maximized, Empowered Orb of Fire was probably the better call, hitting the Frost Worm for about 90 damage on average, before the +50% for the Cold Subtype, with the added benefit of drawing the Frost Worm's attention away from the ailing Cleric.

If you were able to lay down a Maximized, Empowered, Enlarged, Widened Fireball to get all the monsters, and do about 112 damage to each (which I would say would be enough to get the attention of the Frost Worm away from the Cleric), that would probably be the best, but there's only so much metamagic you can stack on the fly if you aren't built for it.

MrRigger

Excellent point

[Talya]

I am impressed that nobody has explained the follies of blasting yet.

I love Orb spells, btw. Good job.

[Keld Denar]

Blasting does have its uses...especially when you are stacking MM on it, as the OP seems to be doing. The Mailman is THE quintessential blaster, and widely regarded as high-op.

After all, if you can kill your foe with no frills and no fuss, thats certainly more efficient than debuffing the foe and allowing them a possibility, albeit diminished opportunity to fight back.

[Worira]

And getting half again bonus damage certainly doesn't hurt.

[noparlpf]

I like the Orb spells better. Why? Simple. They're 4th level, so they cap at 15d6 (except sonic and force; 15d4 and 10d6, respectively, but for two "elements" that fewer things are resistant to). There's no save and no SR. It's against touch AC, which isn't something that's very high on most creatures. This is especially true in the specific case which you're talking about. Typically, a large creature has a very low touch AC. (Example: most dragons' touch ACs are below 10 even when they're very old. Prismatic dragons ruined this.)
Fireball, on the other hand, caps at 10d6 as a 3rd level spell, SR applies, and it offers a save for half damage. (Though when's the last time you saw something that big succeed on a reflex save?) Its upside is that it is a classic core spell.

[faceroll]

AoE blasting in conjunction with a (great) cleaving melee friend is pretty awesome. I would have gone with the Fireball if the cleric wasn't going to take friendly fire, otherwise I think you made the right choice.

12d6 orb on one target isn't as good as 10d6 on 4 targets, imo, as 12d6 vs. the wyrm isn't going to end it it any more than 10d6 would have. SR and Reflex half aren't as much an issue here, since its a frost dragon and giants.

[noparlpf]

I've typically had trouble effectively using AoE spells in combat because of multiple melee characters getting caught up in the blasts. That's around when I switched to the Orbs for direct damage spells.

[faceroll]

I've typically had trouble effectively using AoE spells in combat because of multiple melee characters getting caught up in the blasts. That's around when I switched to the Orbs for direct damage spells.

Do you take a -4 penalty for shooting into melee? A level 10 caster who prestige classed at 5th will have a BAB of +4, and maybe a 16 dex, for +7 to hit with ranged touch attacks. Against an opponent in melee, you're effectively trying to hit AC 14. That gives you a failure rate of 30%. That's pretty atrocious. If your target is using your ally as soft cover, failure rate increases to 50%.

Against easily touchable targets, they typically have so much HP, I'd be better off enervating or exhausting them. Or throwing down a grease or using a dispel magic. HP damage doesn't do anything unless it kills.

That's why I shy away from orbs. They're just a wasted 4th level slot unless you're going all on out on metamagic abuse.

[MrRigger]

I am impressed that nobody has explained the follies of blasting yet.

I love Orb spells, btw. Good job.

From a strictly numbers standpoint, blasting is not as optimal as some other strategies. But at the end of the day, you're still a wizard with access to phenomenal cosmic power. And from a less objective standpoint, there's something really satisfying about blowing things up with gigantic burst of fire and carnage. There's also a big difference between not optimal and not the right choice.

MrRigger

[Jack_Simth]

Do you take a -4 penalty for shooting into melee? A level 10 caster who prestige classed at 5th will have a BAB of +4, and maybe a 16 dex, for +7 to hit with ranged touch attacks. Against an opponent in melee, you're effectively trying to hit AC 14. That gives you a failure rate of 30%. That's pretty atrocious. If your target is using your ally as soft cover, failure rate increases to 50%.

Against easily touchable targets, they typically have so much HP, I'd be better off enervating or exhausting them. Or throwing down a grease or using a dispel magic. HP damage doesn't do anything unless it kills.

That's why I shy away from orbs. They're just a wasted 4th level slot unless you're going all on out on metamagic abuse.

Do note that the Orb spells do tend to carry a 1-round status effect....

[noparlpf]

From a strictly numbers standpoint, blasting is not as optimal as some other strategies. But at the end of the day, you're still a wizard with access to phenomenal cosmic power. And from a less objective standpoint, there's something really satisfying about blowing things up with gigantic burst of fire and carnage. There's also a big difference between not optimal and not the right choice.

I played a sorcerer 6/stormcaster 10 in a series of successive one-shots and short adventures with various parties. He was largely focused on blasting, I suppose. He also only died once (and got revivified immediately), though there was that time that he got hit with a ton of enervations and had like twelve negative levels (but the cleric had plenty of restorations and greater restorations prepared). He was a pretty good blaster. Not perfectly optimized, but he took down the Tarrasque on his own in three or four rounds. (Though the lack of 8th and 9th level spells meant no Wish, simply being able to take it down below -40 that quickly was satisfying.) On the other hand, the tarrasque can't do jack squat to a flying opponent. (Yes, I know the tarrasque is a joke. It's still satisfying.) Another time he did a lot of the damage against an Aspect of the Leviathan. We were doing too well for a 16th level party, so the DM swapped in the advanced Aspect of the Leviathan mid-combat. I think my stormcaster was the one who dealt the finishing blow (with 261 damage in one shot), but maybe one of the meatshields finished it off the next round.

Yay for personal anecdotes which only vaguely relate to the thread.
So to tie it back in, this guy mostly used Energy Substitution (Electricity) Orbs of Cold. (Because who wants to have a chance to entangle somebody who's wearing metal armor when you could blind them and still get the stormcaster's bonus on electricity spells? Especially when you're using the Defense Bonus variant and nobody even wears armor. Especially not the giant primeval sea monster.)

[olentu]

I played a sorcerer 6/stormcaster 10 in a series of successive one-shots and short adventures with various parties. He was largely focused on blasting, I suppose. He also only died once (and got revivified immediately), though there was that time that he got hit with a ton of enervations and had like twelve negative levels (but the cleric had plenty of restorations and greater restorations prepared). He was a pretty good blaster. Not perfectly optimized, but he took down the Tarrasque on his own in three or four rounds. (Though the lack of 8th and 9th level spells meant no Wish, simply being able to take it down below -40 that quickly was satisfying.) On the other hand, the tarrasque can't do jack squat to a flying opponent. (Yes, I know the tarrasque is a joke. It's still satisfying.) Another time he did a lot of the damage against an Aspect of the Leviathan. We were doing too well for a 16th level party, so the DM swapped in the advanced Aspect of the Leviathan mid-combat. I think my stormcaster was the one who dealt the finishing blow (with 261 damage in one shot), but maybe one of the meatshields finished it off the next round.

Yay for personal anecdotes which only vaguely relate to the thread.
So to tie it back in, this guy mostly used Energy Substitution (Electricity) Orbs of Cold. (Because who wants to have a chance to entangle somebody who's wearing metal armor when you could blind them and still get the stormcaster's bonus on electricity spells? Especially when you're using the Defense Bonus variant and nobody even wears armor. Especially not the giant primeval sea monster.)

Personally I would have energy subbed orbs of fire for the daze.

[noparlpf]

Personally I would have energy subbed orbs of fire for the daze.

He had the feat Water Bloodline for extra spells. So he couldn't learn fire spells. Blinding was his next best option, and stormcasters add one point of sonic damage per spell level, along with the chance to be deafened (Fort negates), to all electricity spells. So Energy Sub Electricity Orbs of Cold both blinded and deafened for one round if the target failed both Fort saves, plus a little extra damage. (4 extra points of damage is like an entire 'nother d6.)

[olentu]

He had the feat Water Bloodline for extra spells. So he couldn't learn fire spells. Blinding was his next best option, and stormcasters add one point of sonic damage per spell level, along with the chance to be deafened (Fort negates), to all electricity spells. So Energy Sub Electricity Orbs of Cold both blinded and deafened for one round if the target failed both Fort saves, plus a little extra damage. (4 extra points of damage is like an entire 'nother d6.)

I suppose water bloodline would keep the spell out of ones reach. The rest however would have been the same in either case.

[noparlpf]

I suppose water bloodline would keep the spell out of ones reach. The rest however would have been the same in either case.

Yeah, just about. But Cold is more storm-themed than Fire anyway, at least in my opinion (though lightning does cause fires occasionally, and I guess there are plenty of warm summer storms).