Help with a build, somewhat strict rules.

[txhazard]

I lost my Wizard to a con damage trap, 14 points of Con Dam with a 12 Con, so time to make a new toon. :smallfrown:

The group is a 3 man we have a gnome illusionist and a human druid, my thought was to roll a cleric to complete the holy trinity of tier one toons but to me cleric seems boring so i had a thought of making a monk/druid/sacred fist or a monk/cleric/sacred fist. Not sure what would be better, they would both be flavorful rp wise but im not sure the best way to go about the build. The members on here tend to give the best build advice so here i am.

The rules are somewhat strict.:smallamused:

Only books allowed lvl 1-6 are PHB and Players Guide to Faerun (3.5 of course) at lvl 7 the complete books become available.

I primarily am having a hard time with feat selection.

40 pt build
human

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.:smallsmile:

[Big Fau]

Do you have to be human? Because you could be playing a Prismatic Dragon. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12455.msg425379#msg425379)


Horrible joke aside, what does your party need most?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Halruuan Human, Cleric of Mystra, Rune and Magic domains, Magical Training, Extend Spell, Initiate of Mystra, Persistent Spell. That's 6th level, everything is from either the PHB or PGtF. After Cleric 6 go Dweomerkeeper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a) 1/ Divine Disciple 4/ Dweomerkeeper 9, get Divine Metamagic: Persistent at 9th level, and whatever else you want after that, you'll probably need Extra Turning a few times if you're following the same restrictions on items.

Alternatively, go Cleric of Lathander 5/ Morninglord of Lathander 1/ Radiant Servant of (Pelor) Lathander 5/ Morninglord 9. Get the Strength and Sun domains, with the Glory domain via Radiant Servant, Improved Turning, Extra Turning, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and DMM: Persistent at 9th level. Alternatively, skip Extend/Persist/DMM:Persist and get something like Power Attack, Initiate of Lathander, Divine Might, Quicken Spell, and maybe DMM: Quicken.

[sreservoir]

Do you have to be human? Because you could be playing a Prismatic Dragon. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12455.msg425379#msg425379)


Horrible joke aside, what does your party need most?

well, not quite, due to lack of a listed LA, but black ethergaunts work nicely enough.

[sonofzeal]

What level are you starting at?

[txhazard]

Halruuan Human, Cleric of Mystra, Rune and Magic domains, Magical Training, Extend Spell, Initiate of Mystra, Persistent Spell. That's 6th level, everything is from either the PHB or PGtF. After Cleric 6 go Dweomerkeeper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a) 1/ Divine Disciple 4/ Dweomerkeeper 9, get Divine Metamagic: Persistent at 9th level, and whatever else you want after that, you'll probably need Extra Turning a few times if you're following the same restrictions on items.

Alternatively, go Cleric of Lathander 5/ Morninglord of Lathander 1/ Radiant Servant of (Pelor) Lathander 5/ Morninglord 9. Get the Strength and Sun domains, with the Glory domain via Radiant Servant, Improved Turning, Extra Turning, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and DMM: Persistent at 9th level. Alternatively, skip Extend/Persist/DMM:Persist and get something like Power Attack, Initiate of Lathander, Divine Might, Quicken Spell, and maybe DMM: Quicken.

Those build are nice but i was talking about going sacred fist via cleric or druid. :) I was trying to figure the best way to go the two possible builds with monk/sacred fist with either cleric or druid providing the divine casting.

sonofzeal, total level of 7 but you can take the build past that if you like.

I figure Druid would provide a animal companion and that would be some nice flavor as well as some extra combat potential. On the flip side i figure the cleric route would just be a stronger spell list. Where im having trouble is the feats especially since my book selection is kinda of dampened.

Remember level 1 to 6 i can only use the players handbook and players guide to Faerun. When I hit 7 which i have i can use all of the complete source book.

I think Human for the feat and skills. Hope that elaborates it a bit better.

[Urpriest]

As a Sacred Fist your animal companion will quickly atrophy. I'd go Cleric.

[txhazard]

As a Sacred Fist your animal companion will quickly atrophy. I'd go Cleric.

How so? Ill go look at the animal companion rules now to see if i can discover it for myself ty for the heads up!

[txhazard]

I see what your talking about, my animal companion will not get any stronger as i will not be taking any druid levels past a certain point so it wont be viable in combat.

Hmm cleric it is. Now question.

lets say I go monk2/cleric4/sacred fist1 (Im only level 7). Would a monks belt be beneficial to me in any way shape or form during my build? I know I wont be able to get it later as i think its 13,000 gp.

[Urpriest]

I see what your talking about, my animal companion will not get any stronger as i will not be taking any druid levels past a certain point so it wont be viable in combat.

Hmm cleric it is. Now question.

lets say I go monk2/cleric4/sacred fist1 (Im only level 7). Would a monks belt be beneficial to me in any way shape or form during my build? I know I wont be able to get it later as i think its 13,000 gp.

Huh? Characters gain wealth as they level, generally. Not sure what you're indicating here.

Anyway...a monk's belt would give you the unarmed damage of an eighth level monk, as opposed to a third level monk. That means going up from a d6 to a d10, which is an average of 2 more damage per attack. So I'd only pick it up if all the other choices are worse.

Ironically, the monk's belt is better for a non-monk.

[SleepyBadger]

As a Sacred Fist your animal companion will quickly atrophy. I'd go Cleric.
So would your wildshaping ability. I second that. Go cleric.

[Dream_Merchant]

Halruuan Human, Cleric of Mystra, Rune and Magic domains, Magical Training, Extend Spell, Initiate of Mystra, Persistent Spell. That's 6th level, everything is from either the PHB or PGtF. After Cleric 6 go Dweomerkeeper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a) 1/ Divine Disciple 4/ Dweomerkeeper 9, get Divine Metamagic: Persistent at 9th level, and whatever else you want after that, you'll probably need Extra Turning a few times if you're following the same restrictions on items.

Alternatively, go Cleric of Lathander 5/ Morninglord of Lathander 1/ Radiant Servant of (Pelor) Lathander 5/ Morninglord 9. Get the Strength and Sun domains, with the Glory domain via Radiant Servant, Improved Turning, Extra Turning, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and DMM: Persistent at 9th level. Alternatively, skip Extend/Persist/DMM:Persist and get something like Power Attack, Initiate of Lathander, Divine Might, Quicken Spell, and maybe DMM: Quicken.


Oh man... if ever a player came to me with those builds I would ask him not just to leave the game, but suspend him for 2 weeks until he figures out whats wrong with it and comes up with a 1500 word essay on it.

It gives me the same feeling as seeing a spoiled brat driving the supercar bought with his daddy's money at 100 miles an hour on a 2 lane highway where the speed limit is 50.

I sincerely hope your DM does not share my outlook, because if you try pulling off something like that you go straight to jail and not collect 200.

whatever you do, try to be modest.

[Vandicus]

Oh man... if ever a player came to me with those builds I would ask him not just to leave the game, but suspend him for 2 weeks until he figures out whats wrong with it and comes up with a 1500 word essay on it.

It gives me the same feeling as seeing a spoiled brat driving the supercar bought with his daddy's money at 100 miles an hour on a 2 lane highway where the speed limit is 50.

I sincerely hope your DM does not share my outlook, because if you try pulling off something like that you go straight to jail and not collect 200.

whatever you do, try to be modest.

Do you have some problem with building optimized characters? As the recommened builds go, bar the ability of a Mystra cleric with the right feat to cast in AMF, its not overly cheesy, and doesn't rely on Nightstick stacking overly much.

What do you feel then, is a fair character to play?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Oh man... if ever a player came to me with those builds I would ask him not just to leave the game, but suspend him for 2 weeks until he figures out whats wrong with it and comes up with a 1500 word essay on it.

It gives me the same feeling as seeing a spoiled brat driving the supercar bought with his daddy's money at 100 miles an hour on a 2 lane highway where the speed limit is 50.

I sincerely hope your DM does not share my outlook, because if you try pulling off something like that you go straight to jail and not collect 200.

whatever you do, try to be modest.

Considering the Cleric of Mystra build would mostly be using DMM: Persist for Mass Lesser Vigor to help the party more than himself, and the Cleric of Lathander build is only better at healing, light effects, and destroying undead over a Cleric 20, my 1500 word essay would include why those characters made those career choices, why optimized builds make more sense in-character than suboptimal builds, and what the Stormwind Fallacy is. Seriously, if you find something wrong with a build that uses only one base class and two prestige classes, and takes DMM: Persist despite Night Sticks being unavailable, then maybe the problem is with your outlook on character building, and not the builds themselves.

[Dream_Merchant]

maybe the problem is with your outlook on character building, and not the builds themselves.

That can very well be, and I understand where you are coming from, but the problem is that you would raise interesting points in your essay, but still fail to realise why I would disallow such a character.

The problem with such characters is exactly the way you presented them. A conglomeration of mechanics with a thin layer of fluff, completely irrelevant to the builds, thrown over them after their creation to give the guise of an actual character. In truth it is nothing more than a statistical package designed to beat (solo or in party) a gauntlet of monsters and encounters. Perhaps to you DnD seems that way, to me it doesn't. Maybe that is where we differ. In essence, you would be using flavor to justify your mechanics, whereas I would rather you use mechanics to flesh out the flavor. A subtle, but extremely important difference.

I mean, I accept that others may harbor different opinions, which I also noted earlier and I fully respect that, but to me this approach to character building is fundamentally flawed. Maybe it can be summed up by saying that you advocate a bottom up design, I in turn advocate for a top down design. These are completely antithetical processes.

EDIT: to give you an example, albeit from the other side of the table, I was at some point wanting to play a changeling alienist who was.. well, deranged, and my DM gave me a lecture why I should not 'burn a feat' on Transdimensional Spell, which in truth, has a rather narrow application and is not usually worth the +1 modifier. I let him do his explanation and explained my choice with saying that "my character casts Transdimensional spells because he has connections to the Far Realm and he can transcend the usual dimensions with his spells"

Get what I mean?

[dragonsamurai77]

That can very well be, and I understand where you are coming from, but the problem is that you would raise interesting points in your essay, but still fail to realise why I would disallow such a character.

The problem with such characters is exactly the way you presented them. A conglomeration of mechanics with a thin layer of fluff, completely irrelevant to the builds, thrown over them after their creation to give the guise of an actual character. In truth it is nothing more than a statistical package designed to beat (solo or in party) a gauntlet of monsters and encounters. Perhaps to you DnD seems that way, to me it doesn't. Maybe that is where we differ. In essence, you would be using flavor to justify your mechanics, whereas I would rather you use mechanics to flesh out the flavor. A subtle, but extremely important difference.

I mean, I accept that others may harbor different opinions, which I also noted earlier and I fully respect that, but to me this approach to character building is fundamentally flawed. Maybe it can be summed up by saying that you advocate a bottom up design, I in turn advocate for a top down design. These are completely antithetical processes.

EDIT: to give you an example, albeit from the other side of the table, I was at some point wanting to play a changeling alienist who was.. well, deranged, and my DM gave me a lecture why I should not 'burn a feat' on Transdimensional Spell, which in truth, has a rather narrow application and is not usually worth the +1 modifier. I let him do his explanation and explained my choice with saying that "my character casts Transdimensional spells because he has connections to the Far Realm and he can transcend the usual dimensions with his spells"

Get what I mean?

This raises a completely different issue, though: you're assuming that classes, feats, etc. exist within the game world. There is nothing wrong with this interpretation, but it's not extremely common, and your argument hinges on this. The character sheet might say the aforementioned "Cleric of Lathander 5/ Morninglord of Lathander 1/ Radiant Servant of (Pelor) Lathander 5/ Morninglord 9", for example, but IC, he's just "a holy man good with healing spells", or something to that effect.

[dextercorvia]

The problem with such characters is exactly the way you presented them. A conglomeration of mechanics with a thin layer of fluff, completely irrelevant to the builds, thrown over them after their creation to give the guise of an actual character. In truth it is nothing more than a statistical package designed to beat (solo or in party) a gauntlet of monsters and encounters.

Get what I mean?

Why should Biff (or anyone) provide more than mechanics in an advice thread? I would leave it to the player to build the fluff he wants. I'm not in the habit of writing a full backstory for someone who just wants to see some good fist-smashy cleric builds.

[Ernir]

Hmm cleric it is. Now question.

lets say I go monk2/cleric4/sacred fist1 (Im only level 7). Would a monks belt be beneficial to me in any way shape or form during my build? I know I wont be able to get it later as i think its 13,000 gp.
I'd skip the second Monk level. Evasion (or the alternate class features it can replace) is not worth losing more of your spellcasting.

This delays Sacred Fist entry for a level if you're not using fractional base bonuses (UA), but it'll turn out better in the long run.

Oh man... if ever a player came to me with those builds I would ask him not just to leave the game, but suspend him for 2 weeks until he figures out whats wrong with it and comes up with a 1500 word essay on it.
EDIT: to give you an example, albeit from the other side of the table, I was at some point wanting to play a changeling alienist who was.. well, deranged, and my DM gave me a lecture why I should not 'burn a feat' on Transdimensional Spell, which in truth, has a rather narrow application and is not usually worth the +1 modifier. I let him do his explanation and explained my choice with saying that "my character casts Transdimensional spells because he has connections to the Far Realm and he can transcend the usual dimensions with his spells"

Get what I mean?If one of my players told me they wanted to take a feat as bad as Transdimensional Spell, I would ask him not just to leave the game, but suspend him for 2 weeks until he figures out what's wrong with it, and comes up with a 1500 word essay on it.

In other words, I think you're seriously overreacting there in the first quote. :smallconfused:

[Jude_H]

Get what I mean?
I stopped caring about optimization about optimization somewhere in the middle of 3e's run, so I get the feeling I'm going to be one of the more friendly recipients of your tirade.

But it's awfully hard to take it seriously. The thread title asks for a "build" (not concepts), presents mechanics and asks for mechanics. Biff's builds don't even dip and both finish their PrCs.

Anyway, the Cleric Sacred Fist approach is solid and has good synergy without digging very deep

[Dream_Merchant]

In other words, I think you're seriously overreacting there in the first quote. :smallconfused:

I admit on my mistake and I sincerely apologise for overreacting. And you are right, the guy asked for a build, so I guess your approach is far more relevant. Still, I would like to help the guy in my way, but for that I would need to sit down and discuss the character development in the way I suggest to actually give him valid ideas. If he is willing, I am available :)